Scarlet-Spider vs Jedi

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Who wins in a straight fight?

Poll ended at 2003-07-18 04:48pm

Ben easily
9
22%
Ben manges to take down a jedi but its hard
2
5%
They fight to a stand still
2
5%
Jedi just manges to take it
8
20%
Jedi with ease
20
49%
 
Total votes: 41

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D.Turtle
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Post by D.Turtle » 2003-06-29 09:21am

Darth Wong wrote:Turtle, do you have some problem with putting a blank line between paragraphs?
Actually, I usually try to keep points that are meant to be seen as a whole together. So I leave empty spaces between paragraphs if I start a new point. But I dont leave an empty line if it is part of the same point. I can of course leave empty spaces between every paragraph - no problem.
None of which indicate that he would survive a TK force-choke.
Did I say that he could survive a force choke at this point? No I didn't.
Countering this, Darth Wong has provided a few examples: The main one : a group of Jedi combining their powers, and through sacrificing one of their own, tossing around several Star Destroyers.
I like the way you act as if this is the only example, ignoring other feats such as partially levitating the X-Wing despite his marginal training, bringing down an AT-AT in Dark Empire, etc.
I like the way you ignored the words "a few examples" and "The main one"
So lets look at a period of time where the Jedi were not weakened substanitally (if at all): Episode 1.
We see 2 Jedi destroy quite a few droids. However, they fled from 2 destroyers, eventhough they could have easily destroyed them (if we are going by the strength of Jedi that Darth Wong is ascribing to Jedi) - after all, they can toss Star Destroyers around, so they won't have any problems tossing 2 Destroyer Droids around - right?
Logical fallacy: if they did not use their TK in a particular manner, then they must not have it. That is a stupid interpretation since we saw a half-assed Jedi trainee lift a multi-ton X-wing partially out of a swamp (much more difficult than levitating it in air, I might add) in TESB, so any interpretation calling for them to LACK multi-ton TK is instantly denied in canon.
Instead of leaping to the stupid conclusion that they must lack multi-ton TK, you should instead look for an explanation which explains all of the evidence at once.
This is the reason why I dont always leave spaces between paragraphs. As this was part of a point that I was trying to make. But you insist to take every sentence alone and not a whole pont. Pretty much what you accused Darkstar of doing, isnt it?
So what do you think is the case? It's clear that they DO have multi-ton TK; throwing heavy metallic battle droids around like rag dolls is child's play for them. It's also clear that they have the super-speed, since we saw it. You're simply arguing that they should have used their abilities differently, and then leaping to the asinine conclusion that they must not have those abilities even though they were demonstrated onscreen.
Perhaps because letting up for even a half-second to apply a TK shove would have meant death? What's your explanation? Do you agree with TK that they must lack abilities that they have demonstrated onscreen? :roll:
I SPECIFICALLY addressed this point. Letting up for a half-second would mean death. So you run AROUND the droid and have your half-second. But they didn't. No, they ran away. So, either they are fucking IDIOTS, or they were not capable of doing this. They can obviously move very quickly. They can obviously TK very powerfully, but apparently the harder it is, the more TIME and CONCENTRATION they need. Dont give them the TIME or CONCENTRATION and they can't TK you to death.
So? Droidekas can't turn around too quickly, so that wouldn't matter. But a more powerful application of the Force (such as super-speed, partial intangibility, or heavy TK) requires a fraction of a second to initiate, and they were a little busy. What is this supposed to prove?
Emphasis mine.
So, if Spiderman keeps the Jedi busy - for example by shooting webs at him - he can't TK. Concession accepted.
Accelerating from a standing start is a change of velocity, dumb-ass. Maneuverability is simply a matter of the ability to accelerate in arbitrary directions.
Maneuverability that a Jedi does not have. Maneuverability that Spiderman does have.
True, both sides have it. Jedi precog, however, has greater range in the sense that they can sense things which are going to happen well into the future, and from light-years away.
Which is why they knew in TPM that the Trade Federation would try to kill them, long before they were on the ship, right?
Actually, they realized it just shortly before they were about to be killed by the gas.
A cartoon panel does not indicate that he is actually a blur. In case you didn't notice, when they show that, they often show the other person's head "blurring" the same way, shown in multiple positions. The cartoon format is freeze-frames to depict a story, and you don't know how much time is elapsed during each frame. Since a frame often encompasses dialogue that would take a considerable amount of time to say, it is ridiculous to argue that a "bouncing around the panel" frame must mean that Spiderman moves like a blur.
KK has shown panels where he is a tornado, with the adversary practically a statue in comparison to Spiderman. So we have a comparison.
You have acceleration figures to prove this? If so, present them.
As Spiderman has moved so quickly that to others he was a mere blur of motion, which has never been the case for Jedi (we have one case where they turn themselves invisible in TPM, they are not a blur of motion) I do not need calculations or acceleration figures. If I see a person pick up a car, I can safely say that he is stronger than I am (as I can't pick up a car) without calculations. Calculations are not a necessity when you can see the difference.
Funny how they must be realistic in the sense that a certain amount of force is required, yet you get to throw realism out the window when it is pointed out that the amount of force required would produce side effects. Typical selective application of logic which I see from idiots. Tell me, how do you know what a train weighs, or how much force it takes to lift one? FROM REAL-LIFE PHYSICS? Yet what do you throw out the window as soon as it becomes inconvenient? Yup- real life physics. Hypocrite.
Its nothing about being a hypocrite, it is something about thinking LOGICALLY. Something which you think is superior to everything else. One scene in question: http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon ... inger1.jpg
According to you this entire scene hasn't happened as there is no physical way for that to happen which happened here. After all, if the train car is that heavy and spiderman would try to toss it over with one finger then the whole thing would have dented (except if the material would be impossibly robust). If the train is very light, and spiderman tries to toss it over with one finger, then the material would also dent (at the least when it hit the ground with quite a lot of force as it throws up quite a lot of dust and makes a very loud noise). So no matter what you choose - physically it is not possible. So your reasoning tells us that this scene didn't take place. But, you know this scene actually DID take place. So now we have to logically decide what really happened and what the best theory is. One way to do this is to try and understand what the author/drawer of the comic wanted to show. This is obviously the strength of spiderman and not the weakness of the other guy.
Correct, but we only have two choices:
  1. Interpret them according to the laws of physics
  2. Apply the laws of physics only when it's convenient, and throw them out the window when they get in the way of a good pre-ordained conclusion
Kaptain Krackhead has been using the latter method, and so have you.
We ignore the laws of physics if it is obvious that the author/drawer forgot the laws of physics or didn't care about them. What matters is what is meant to be shown not what is shown.
How would you explain away the Hulk scene I mentioned? Simply say it didn't happen? Or say that the author (or rather director) forgot that the turret would simply break off the tank but still acknowldedge that the Hulk is strong enough to throw 60 tons or so around? Even if it means ignoring the laws of phyics in a certain circumstance?
What is the strongest we have seen a Jedi PHYSICALLY do?
The strongest that comes to my mind is Obi-wan jumping up again from where he was shoved down by Darth Maul during the fight in TPM.
Lifting an X-wing fighter out of a swamp comes to mind, since you have not presented a case to eliminate TK. The force required to lift a tank out of a swamp is around twice the force required to lift it off solid ground, so the force requirement for what Luke did is considerable, even if it only moved a few feet.
DID YOU READ WHAT I FUCKING SAID? I said what was the strongest that we have a Jedi PHYSICALLY do. And you counter this with a feat accomplished with the force?!?
Spiderman is physically stronger than a Jedi. However, the speed arguments fall flat; the use of a comic panel (and implicit assumption that the whole panel must take a second or so) is a rather weak argument. I suppose I could point out the damage that he should leave on walls if he bounces off them at the velocities you claim, but of course, that would be physics, and I must remember that you only apply physics when convenient (eg- to calculate the force required to do something while ignoring all of the other physical parameters of that act as you describe)
It is a comic, made by people, maybe not that terribly intelligent people, people who do not care about the laws of physics as much as you do, people who therefore do not calculate how many mm a wall has to be indented by a certain mass hitting the wall at a certain speed. What they want to show is what is important, not WHAT they show.
If I would make a short movie, and in this movie (as I don't have much money) state that this basketball is Earth and proceed to blow it up with a lego spaceship of my own creation, then obviously I want to show that this spacecraft is powerful enough to blow up a planet. Even if it is obvious that the planet is a basketball. The intentions (of the producer/director) count more than what is shown in the movie due to limitations on the capabilities of the producer/director and his team. These limitations can be of material nature (as in my example) or they can be logical limitations (as is the case in comic books).
He doesn't have to. Unless Spiderman has some incredibly destructive ranged attack that we don't know about, he can take a half-second to apply his TK punch. Don't bullshit me and tell me that Spiderman can take out anybody at any range in less than a half-second.
He can shoot webs with quite a lot of force in them. Using these he can distract the Jedi (by forcing him to deflect or evade them) and thereby stop the Jedi using TK - by your own admission.
Are you seriously arguing that Spiderman can locate and attack someone who has Force prescience and supernatural awareness without giving him enough reaction time to even put out his hand?
Spiderman's precog only applies to imminent personal danger. Jedi precog applies to arbitrary events. Yoda could even monitor Luke's upbringing on Tatooine from Dagobah!
Imminent personal danger? KK provided an example where he knew of a danger hours in advance. This is superior to a Jedi's danger precog - seen in TPM in the beginning, when it took quite a while to realize that they were in danger.
Do you have ANY idea how much a column of that size could weigh? How much experience do you have working with metal?
This example does point out quite nicely that size DOES matter, or in other words - force (not the Force) does matter.
Spider-sense enables him to move out of the path where the laser will go; it doesn't make him fast enough to actually move out of the way of the laser in flight.
As was already pointed out - KK provided examples where he dodged lasers without his spider-sense.
Is this circle-jerk satisfying for you? Of course, I should keep in mind that you are also convinced that the Matrix has no serious plot holes. You appear to convince easily, if you are inclined to do so.
I said this for one reason: To show that he isn't debating uselessly.
Matrix has no serious plot holes. It does have several severe logical holes. Quite a big difference.

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Post by Crazedwraith » 2003-06-29 09:28am

Vympel wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote: Incorrect.
spider-man: the ulitmate guide page 23 wrote: Not only can he sense the exact danger of an impending threat, but his spider-sense immediety triggers his amazing reflexes to help him avoid injury. He often avoids blows before they are actually thrown [/qoute]
Emphasis mine.
"Blows". As in fisticuffs. Not exactly a tranquiliser dart is it? :lol:
:roll: You dont think you are being slightey hide-bound?? Blows, bullets, energy blasts spidey has been shown to dogde them all.
You choice a sinlge example of him being hit by a trank dart over hundreds of examples of him doging everything from bullets to tentacles.

Furhter more the kraven example isn't a very good one anyway.
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Having recently returned from his honey moon, Spider-man was out web-slinging ome nighty when he was suddenly attacked drugged and captured by Kraven. As the hunter advanced on his prey, Spider-Man was unconcered. Untill, that is, he saw the rifle and the look in Kraven's eyes. Aiming the rifle at Spider-Man. Kraven shot the wall-crawler right between the eyes.
Im assuming the trank dart was the the think "that shot the wall crawler right between the eyes" though not actually having read Kraven's last hunt myself. But if it was then i think your example is pretty lame, im mean he was shot after being drugged and according to the picture tangled in a net.
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Post by Vympel » 2003-06-29 09:30am

D.Turtle wrote: So, if Spiderman keeps the Jedi busy - for example by shooting webs at him - he can't TK. Concession accepted.
Ah, so Spiderman is just going to shoot his webcartridges at him indefinitely is he, without pause, and the Jedi is just going to sit there, and let him. Obviously.

Vader fighting Luke on Bespin, ripping machinery secured on walls (thousands of pounds of force required), in the middle of a ligthsabre fight, without looking. Concession Accepted.

The Jedi wins. He can restrict Spiderman's movements at will (AOTC novelization- and that was against Count Dooku- whom Spiderman is not) He can crush his internal organs. He can chop his head off with a lightsabre. What an Spiderman do? Oh, he can shoot webs at him and pray to God the Jedi doesn't deflect them, or he can try and land a punch on a guy who has a weapon who will dismember him with a melee weapon that is a continuous ultra-sharp edge. Sure, whatever.
Last edited by Vympel on 2003-06-29 09:33am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Vympel » 2003-06-29 09:32am

Crazedwraith wrote:
"Blows". As in fisticuffs. Not exactly a tranquiliser dart is it? :lol:
:roll: You dont think you are being slightey hide-bound?? Blows, bullets, energy blasts spidey has been shown to dogde them all.
You choice a sinlge example of him being hit by a trank dart over hundreds of examples of him doging everything from bullets to tentacles.
It was originally to highlight a fallacy in the other side's thinking, but the more important point is *blows*. The ultimate guide says nothing of him being able to dodge *anything* before it is actually committed.

Also, I noticed you snipped my mentioning of the Jedi's abilities to block an opponent's avenue of escape from an attack entirely, or limit his movements. In the AOTC novelization. Which is canon.
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Post by Crazedwraith » 2003-06-29 09:37am

Vympel wrote:
Also, I noticed you snipped my mentioning of the Jedi's abilities to block an opponent's avenue of escape from an attack entirely, or limit his movements. In the AOTC novelization. Which is canon.
I notice you snipped my rebutal of the trank dart valitidy.
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Post by Ghost Rider » 2003-06-29 09:41am

Sadly your point of him being shot in the middle of the eyes presents a piece to be used against you.

If Spiderman's sense of are that keen.

How the fuck does he get surprised to the point of that much drugged and captured?

Literally the Tranq Dart he couldn't aviod but Kraven had BAGGED him all but that.

And yes...Voodoo spells. I know...but how much did it apparently drive him down. To the point of which an enhanced Human bags him.

From the way half the people describe him, Kraven had to be Venom+ level of abilities and using godlike level of power.

And sadly none this even applied to when Kingpin has bearhugged him. Last I remember the big guy is not quite super reflexes, and has upper limit strength.
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Post by Vympel » 2003-06-29 09:41am

Crazedwraith wrote:
I notice you snipped my rebutal of the trank dart valitidy.
What part of "It was originally to highlight a fallacy in the other side's thinking, but the more important point is *blows*." and the use of a lol smiley, do you not understand?
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Post by D.Turtle » 2003-06-29 11:23am

Ah, so Spiderman is just going to shoot his webcartridges at him indefinitely is he, without pause, and the Jedi is just going to sit there, and let him. Obviously.
Long enough for Spiderman to reach the Jedi and kill him or beat him unconscious.
Vader fighting Luke on Bespin, ripping machinery secured on walls (thousands of pounds of force required), in the middle of a ligthsabre fight, without looking. Concession Accepted.
IIRC, he let up some before the pieces came flying. IOW he was concentrating on it. He can't do this if he has to concentrate on blocking webs from hitting him or rather evading them.
The Jedi wins. He can restrict Spiderman's movements at will (AOTC novelization- and that was against Count Dooku- whom Spiderman is not)
Which requires time and concentration.
He can crush his internal organs.

Which would require time and concentration.
He can chop his head off with a lightsabre.

If he can hit Spiderman.
What an Spiderman do? Oh, he can shoot webs at him and pray to God the Jedi doesn't deflect them,
As long as the Jedi is deflecting them he can't concentrate enough on Spiderman to TK him. So, a Jedi blocking the Webs wouldn't be a problem. Actually: I would wonder how effective it would be to block them: Either you say he cuts right through the webs, which would mean that the webs would coninue to the left and right side of the sabre, therefore hitting the Jedi, or the web won't be cut by the sabre, which would make the sabre useless after a short time.
or he can try and land a punch on a guy who has a weapon
Which he has done a number of times.
who will dismember him with a melee weapon

If the Jedi can hit him.
that is a continuous ultra-sharp edge.

lol, lightsabres do not have a continuous ultra-sharp edge, they cut by burning through stuff. Ever watch Epsiode 1 or Episode 2 or Episode 4 or Episode 5 or Episode 6?
Sure, whatever.
Sure, whatever.

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Post by AdmiralKanos » 2003-06-29 11:30am

There's no point discussing this with these fan-whores. Spidey can't evade voodoo, but he can somehow evade TK? How?

If any incident could be found where a Jedi could have done better by overusing the Force (even though that is discouraged), then they must not have the ability to do so? But the same logic should not be applied to Spidey?

Kraven's Last Hunt (not to mention Punisher crossovers, etc) are all inadmissible because of extenuating circumstances but AOTC is not, because we are supposed to choose Kaptain Krackhead's interpretation of their diminished Force capabilities over the OFFICIAL one in the EU?

KK claims that Jedi vs Spidey is like 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-10 vs 10-10-10-10-10-10-10-1 rather than the more accurate 1-5-50--20-5-800 trillion vs 10-1-5-2-7-4-6 and expects us not to notice?

At least a dozen times it's pointed out that the Jedi Academy hurling starships is NOT the only EU example of Jedi high-powered offensive TK and we STILL hear people screeching that it's the only example we can find?

Yoda's "never for attack" line of dialogue is used as some kind of standalone proof that offensive Force use is somehow not possible for a Jedi even though Yoda HIMSELF uses the Force offensively?

With grossly one-sided, hypocritical "logic" like this, it's no wonder that this debate goes around in circles. If you believe these ass-clowns, you would think that Spidey could take down whole armies by himself, while a single Jedi would get his ass kicked by Rambo.
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Post by Crown » 2003-06-29 11:50am

Woe and behold! For the truth is among you! So where are adventurous couple who argue that to use a Force Choke is a no-go for a Jedi and only for the Sith, I have the truth ready to be laid bare. Besides their constant denial of CANNON fucking evidence to the contrary (Luke in ROTJ), they claim that the EU has specifically pointed out that Force Choke is in the province of Dark Jedi only. Lets see if we can change that shall we?
I, Jedi, [i]hardcover pages 455 - 456[/i] wrote:"Then Spicewood (Corran's grandfather) dove for his blade and Nightsweat stabbed down. I could almost feel the blade burning its way through my friend, severing the ties his life had to his body. I would have expected him to die instantly, but he managed a smile. The azure blade fixing him to the ground sputtered and died and in an instant I knew what he had done, how he had employed the rarest of all Jedi gifts, and what a terrible price he had paid for it.
Nightsweat rose into the air, then convulsed and seemed to implode. I saw the body fly back through the tents built beneath the duracrete dome. Nightsweat exploded, as did the dark Jedi Desertwind had slain. Their mortal bodies no longer able to contain the dark-side energy, it flashed out in a blue fireball that shattered the duracrete dome.

<snip>

I looked down and saw him (Corran's grandfather) fade away, his burned clothes collapsing, his lightsabre settling into the dust"
Well isn't that interesting?

But I guess our intrepid friends will point out, that this was a Force 'Squish' and not a Force 'Choke' :wink:
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Post by Vympel » 2003-06-29 12:54pm

D.Turtle wrote: Long enough for Spiderman to reach the Jedi and kill him or beat him unconscious.
Fascinating. How?
IIRC, he let up some before the pieces came flying. IOW he was concentrating on it. He can't do this if he has to concentrate on blocking webs from hitting him or rather evading them.
Bullfuck. He sent pieces flying WHILE fighting, you idiot, there was no letup. I see we have reduced ourselves to simply denying the evidence.
Which requires time and concentration.
It was in the middle of a lightsabre fight with a Sith Lord, you stupid moron fucknut- Anakin didn't lower his sabre, take a deep breath, and concentrate really hard, he did it in the middle of a fight with an ENEMY force user, the entire POINT was to block Dooku's mode of retreat DURING the fight, restricting his options during the duel. Jeezus christ, give it up, you've already made yourself out to be a complete fucking dumbass.
Which would require time and concentration.
Ah yes, just like when they ruin the innards of the battle droids with a gesture. Oh wait, THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN. Fucknut.
If he can hit Spiderman.
Sure, after all, what are blaster bolts compared to some goon in spandex?
As long as the Jedi is deflecting them he can't concentrate enough on Spiderman to TK him.
Yes, and as you've already established, Spiderman can just sit there and continuously shoot webs all day

So, a Jedi blocking the Webs wouldn't be a problem.
Ah yes, the fact that they would be totally ineffective won't be a problem :roll:
Actually: I would wonder how effective it would be to block them: Either you say he cuts right through the webs, which would mean that the webs would coninue to the left and right side of the sabre, therefore hitting the Jedi,
WTF?
or the web won't be cut by the sabre, which would make the sabre useless after a short time.
LOL. Sure, it can cut through solid fucking metal, but it can't cut through spider silk. Fucking dumbass ... give up, it's getting really pathetic.
Which he has done a number of times.
Ah, and as we know, all people with weapons are the same! Dumbass.
If the Jedi can hit him.
Keep telling yourself that, fanwhore.
lol, lightsabres do not have a continuous ultra-sharp edge, they cut by burning through stuff. Ever watch Epsiode 1 or Episode 2 or Episode 4 or Episode 5 or Episode 6?
Fucking idiot. It doesn't matter where the lightsabre hits, it CUTS, you stupid fuck. Nice nitpick of HOW it cuts, though. Completely irrelevant to the point.
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Post by KK » 2003-06-29 12:59pm

I was recently thinking about how using the word fucknut and the :roll: smiley over and over sure does make me look like a cock-smoking faggot.

Fuck me up the ass!

Trolling bullshit edited to be more in line with KK's mindset

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Post by Ghost Rider » 2003-06-29 01:01pm

Don't troll, dumbass.
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Post by Vympel » 2003-06-29 01:05pm

KK wrote:I was recently thinking about how using the word fucknut and the :roll: smiley over and over sure does make me look like a cock-smoking faggot.

Fuck me up the ass!
Concession Accepted, idiot. Shouldn't you be wanking over your extensive Spiderman collection, looking for more irrelevant scans to post?
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Post by KK » 2003-06-29 01:08pm

Accidental edit instead of quote
KK wrote:
Don't waste my time if you're going to act like we haven't provided ample evidence of Spider-Man's speed.

I've provided several scans of him dodging lasers, two without his spider-sense. I've provided scans of him appearing as a whirlwind. So shut the fuck up.
Completely irrelevant, since I was discussing the abilities of a Jedi, you illiterate schmuck, not Spiderman.
Yet another point which you would've have saved me from having to read had you read the debate.

Spider-Man can fire webbing in a wide-angle spray, covering the entire area. Unless the lightsaber magically grows to cover everywhere, your idea of him just blocking all of it is a joke.


Right, of course, the first thing he does, he's going to fire a wide-angle spray, because he already knows the Jedi is going to deflect a regular one, right? Oh, and let me guess, you'll allow him this luxury, but if I were to contend that if you were going to do this, then the Jedi would ALSO know about the wide-angle spray, making the original point of simply depirving him of said webslingers stand, you'll scream bloody murder?

And of course, no one in the history of Spiderman has ever dodged his webslingers ...

Motherfucker. It's only been one page since I provided a quote saying when he attacks it's hard to make out what's going on. Did you not even read the last few pages
And you obviously missed the part where the Jedi's ability to deflect km/s blaster bolts was demonstrated- which are a smaller, faster target. I wonder what's easier to hit, a blaster bolt that will kill you if it touches you or a goon in spandex trying to go fisticuffs when you have a fucking lightsabre ...

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Post by Ghost Rider » 2003-06-29 01:10pm

All that and nothing about that fact the Jedi isn't going to fucking stand there and take it up the ass.

Dodges laser...but talks while doing it.

Wide Angle webbing but let's ignore that the Jedi will not just stand there.

Yes...same bloody fucking thing you've been spouting but just like the other times let's ignore the Jedi.
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Post by Crown » 2003-06-29 01:20pm

KK

You were right in that I was acting like an arrogant prick before, hell in many ways I am. So I ask you if you will accept my sincerest apology for that rather rude behaivour on my part. I honestly regret saying those things.

And I ask if I might help explain what is the route cause over our disagreement over this isseue?

Simply put it is this; why did Yoda and Dooku go to lightsabre's in AotC to settle their battle?
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Post by KK » 2003-06-29 02:00pm

Because Yoda's defense was on par with Dooku's offense.

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Post by KK » 2003-06-29 02:07pm

Thanks for editing my reply that WASN'T TO YOU TO BEGIN WITH, asshole.
Ghost Rider wrote:All that and nothing about that fact the Jedi isn't going to fucking stand there and take it up the ass.
The Jedi doesn't have to choose to "stand there and take it up the ass" if he's outclassed in speed and can't help but take it up the ass.
Dodges laser...but talks while doing it.
Right. He talks, therefore he didn't really dodge lasers. What a load of shit. Comics have weird text. Flash has been known to say entire sentences in the frame of a picosecond. There are scenes where somebody jumpkicks and the text makes it necessary that the exchange of words took place between when one jumped to kick and the other stopped her. Enough of this, "But they talked" shit.
Wide Angle webbing but let's ignore that the Jedi will not just stand there.
What's he going to do? Move to the right, there's webbing. Jump, there's webbing. Duck, there's webbing. Slash with his lightsaber, manage to take a little slice out of the webing before the rest of his body is covered.
Yes...same bloody fucking thing you've been spouting but just like the other times let's ignore the Jedi.
This coming from the person who's been spouting out "Oh the Jedi will force choke!" and acting like Spidey would sit there with his thumb up his ass.

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Post by KK » 2003-06-29 02:08pm

Vympel wrote: Concession Accepted, idiot. Shouldn't you be wanking over your extensive Spiderman collection, looking for more irrelevant scans to post?
If you think dodging lasers, being a whirlwind, and being stated as too fast to see are irrelavant in a debate about speed, then stop wasting my time.

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Post by KK » 2003-06-29 02:20pm

AdmiralKanos wrote:There's no point discussing this with these fan-whores. Spidey can't evade voodoo, but he can somehow evade TK? How?
Evade voodoo? What the fuck is that supposed to mean?

Besides, as I've said countless times now, Spidey doesn't have to "evade" TK if he can strike before the telekenetic has a chance to.

Besides, he *HAS* evaded TK before.

Justice of New Warriors/Avengers fame.
Kraven's Last Hunt (not to mention Punisher crossovers, etc) are all inadmissible because of extenuating circumstances but AOTC is not, because we are supposed to choose Kaptain Krackhead's interpretation of their diminished Force capabilities over the OFFICIAL one in the EU?
You make it seem like the official EU (whatever happened to the "quasi-canon" you used to preach, anyway?) explination contradicts my interpretation by necessity. It doesn't.

The Punisher thing was a What If? by the way, and not canon. In the actual comic it was based on, Punisher tried to use a sniper rifle and Spidey dodged the bullet mid-swing.
KK claims that Jedi vs Spidey is like 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-10 vs 10-10-10-10-10-10-10-1 rather than the more accurate 1-5-50--20-5-800 trillion vs 10-1-5-2-7-4-6 and expects us not to notice?
Do you have a mental retardation that causes you to backtrack all the fucking time? This has already been covered in detail.

Spider-Man beat the living shit out of Firelord. Firelord can survive inside a black hole, survives supernovas, and flies through stars to clean himself.

Same with Silver Surfer, whom Spidey has also battered around.

You only get that bullshit idea that the best Jedi feat outdoes the best Spidey feat when you ignore the best Spidey feat. Although I'm partially to blame for that, since I had enough self-dignity to not post bullshit feats for Spider-Man that I know are stupid, and let you form the incorrect understanding that the average feats I was posting were actually his upper level feats.
At least a dozen times it's pointed out that the Jedi Academy hurling starships is NOT the only EU example of Jedi high-powered offensive TK and we STILL hear people screeching that it's the only example we can find?
Luke beat an AT-AT. Hooray for him.

AT-AT < < < < < < < < Firelord
Yoda's "never for attack" line of dialogue is used as some kind of standalone proof that offensive Force use is somehow not possible for a Jedi even though Yoda HIMSELF uses the Force offensively?
Yoda used the Force defensively. Don't fucking kid yourself.
If you believe these ass-clowns, you would think that Spidey could take down whole armies by himself,
Which oddly enough he has done. A squad of fighter jets, too.

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Post by Crown » 2003-06-29 02:23pm

KK wrote:Because Yoda's defense was on par with Dooku's offense.
Precisely, or a tad more accurate their knowledge in the force (TK, lightning, etc) were even. It was a stalemate.

So what defenses does Spiderman have against TK? Remembering that the Force doesn't act towards him, but on him?
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Post by KK » 2003-06-29 02:30pm

Crown wrote: Precisely, or a tad more accurate their knowledge in the force (TK, lightning, etc) were even. It was a stalemate.
Precisely. But it wasn't a stalemate of both attacking the other. It was a stalemate of Dooku's dark side offense and Yoda's light side defense.
So what defenses does Spiderman have against TK? Remembering that the Force doesn't act towards him, but on him?
He has no direct defense. He does have some indirect defenses, though.

His speed is the main one. If he can attack fast enough that the Jedi is forced to defend himself at close range, the Jedi won't be able to use a good deal of TK. At least no more than to boost his physical abilities.

And it's been shown that Jedi do need a deal of concentration to use TK, and he could keep the Jedi occupied enough to not allow him that concentration. Either by blockign webbing, dodging webbing, or anything of the sort.

If he is levitated, he could use stingers to break the Jedi's concentration, or pull a Dooku and use webbing to pull down the ceiling over the Jedi.

It all comes down to a good offense being useless if you aren't fast enough to make the battle fought on your terms.

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Post by Typhonis 1 » 2003-06-29 02:41pm

And id in Spiderman leaping to attack the Jedi the Jedi TK grabs him and uses his momnentum to slam him into a wall how does he defend against that?
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Post by KK » 2003-06-29 02:43pm

Typhonis 1 wrote:And id in Spiderman leaping to attack the Jedi the Jedi TK grabs him and uses his momnentum to slam him into a wall how does he defend against that?
For one, he'd be on top of the Jedi and punching before the Jedi could do anything about it.

And even if I give you the benefit of the doubt, that would hurt him about as much as a pillow hurled by a 5 year old girl would hurt me or you.

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