A goofy thread that actually makes some sense.

[Darth_Shinji]

I know nothing of the sort, Jodoforce, I simply trotted out one of the claims I have been forced to endure in my ongoing campaign. I have always maintained that such speed figures were utter tripe(normal people following movements, sound carrying during a fight, in more extreme cases the Z-fighters ability to see when traveling ftl, dust settling during a fight, the fact that the fusion time limit seemed about 1-for-1 with the episode time, in truly ridiculous claims the fact that subjective decades, centuries, or more would pass during the first second perceived by the outside). The one time I actually remember seeing a timer counting down was in the original DB, and it was counting at least 3 seconds for every second of episode time(yes, I sat there and kept track).

I have no idea how many times alternate info was presented that should they can moved faster than that. And define being heard by normal humans becuase the saiyain saga showed that most of thier fighting is being seansed by ki and normal seanses of even saiyins (Or at least half-saiyins) can not seanse a thing. "Normal" humans like Krillain can use ki in this manier. While "normal" humans like Mr. Satan can not keep up with thier fights but the sonic booms (sometimes). And what about the fight between freaiza and Goku, five minutes that lasted 10 hours? As if your relativity agurment is not mearly a nit-pick that can be explained away as KI or the fact that lots of sci-fi universes also do not follow this?

I don't know the mechanism by which they tap into the interuniversal energy I am postulating, it could be the pineal gland, sheer willpower, or the raw concentration of stupidity punching a hole in the space-time continuum. However, if simply working out in the gym was sufficient, Satan's fatfuck follower should have at least had some capability.

Its partial knoweledge as well, concentration and all that. And alot of non z-fighters had powers to a degree or so in DB as well. Muscle isn't all there is too chi, but its been showed that using it effects the body and depends on the person's heath.

Darth Shinji, if Goku is resisting with his chi, and is capable of all of the crap that has been claimed, then King Kai's planet and the 100G incident should have had no effect. Its not just one incident, its a consistent theme that an acceleration of less than a thousand Gs can kick a Z-fighters ass.

We've tryied to explain to you that training takes place with very little to no use of chi what so ever. Its like proving a flashligh doesn't make light because you turn it on with no batteries in it.

Know that we have heard your points on why dbz can't be working at these speeds, what do you say about king kai a person who can seanse ftl objects not being able to keep-up with G and F's fight becuase they are too fast? Or that he seanses Broli destorying a galaxy in secounds?

[consequences]

Goku was nearly killed when not using chi by your argument then, and he didn't even consider powering up momentarily to not die.
And one more time, if they can generate force to negate acceleration, they should be able to generate it to approximate acceleration, making the gravity rooms the biggest waste of money since the Vikings misordered a shipment of helmets with the horns on the inside.

Ah, sonic booms, another favorite of mine. Consider, if you will, the fact that movement at near light speeds in an atmosphere would generate heat and shockwaves sufficient to kill everything in the area, even without throwing energy blasts. And yet Satan and entourage survived no more than 500 feet from a high level battle going on in front of them.

How does the simplest explanation go?

Option 1, they are moving that fast, requiring the invention of a hundred and one different mechanisms to account for all of the things that should happen at those speeds, or inconsistencies with other portions of the universe.

Option 2, they aren't going that fast in the first place.

How long was Snake way btw, I seem to be remembering 6 million miles, but I could be wrong. Using that, Goku's top sustainable speed for the return journey would be around 64 Kps, on his first trip, less than 1 Kps.

[SAMAS]

Goku was nearly killed when not using chi by your argument then, and he didn't even consider powering up momentarily to not die.
And one more time, if they can generate force to negate acceleration, they should be able to generate it to approximate acceleration, making the gravity rooms the biggest waste of money since the Vikings misordered a shipment of helmets with the horns on the inside.

We already went through that. Goku had already been training, and his body was depleted. That meant he had a lot less Ki to help him. But the Ki he had left was the exact reason he was able to even move at all.

Ah, sonic booms, another favorite of mine. Consider, if you will, the fact that movement at near light speeds in an atmosphere would generate heat and shockwaves sufficient to kill everything in the area, even without throwing energy blasts. And yet Satan and entourage survived no more than 500 feet from a high level battle going on in front of them.

Because they were fortunately sheltered by massive chunks of earth.

How does the simplest explanation go?

Option 1, they are moving that fast, requiring the invention of a hundred and one different mechanisms to account for all of the things that should happen at those speeds, or inconsistencies with other portions of the universe.

Option 2, they aren't going that fast in the first place.

How long was Snake way btw, I seem to be remembering 6 million miles, but I could be wrong. Using that, Goku's top sustainable speed for the return journey would be around 64 Kps, on his first trip, less than 1 Kps.

Now consider that he did most of that running.

On top of that, his little sidetrip through Hell forced him to go though at least half of it again.

[consequences]

Big hunks of earth sheltered them, after they were knocked miles away. They started with no cover whatsoever. You remember what happened whan Neo zoomed through the city in Matrix Reloaded? Buildings shattering, cars trailing in his wake? That's exactly what should have happened to Satan and crew at the battle site. Conclusion: They aren't travelling that fast.

You know, If Goku was doing high-intensity training at the levels you are describing, enough to leave him just this side of conscious, the spaceship he was traveling in would never have withstood the stress, considering how they stand up to miniscule energy balls that don't even affect the surrounding area. If he trained at a level survivable by the ship, he wuld not have been exhausted by constantly working out during the entire trip to Namek, again, if he were capable of what you seem to think he is. There's also the fact that going by percentages of energy available, he should have been long unconscious, possibly even dead by the time he reached the state that 100 Gs could kick his ass, presuming he is training at the levels you so blithely assume. Conclusion: He isn't that tough.

And what difference does him running make if he is still using energy to boost? And him repeating half the trip only weakens your case, because it means that the speed-power level ratios that have been claimed have been consistently bogus. Besides which, I've thought for a while now, that the main difference on the two journeys was that he made the rookie mistake of sprinting the first time, and didn't properly pace himself. By living on King Kai's planet, he was conditioned to constantly survive ten G's worth of pressure, and adjusted so it didn't really affect him, signifigantly improving his stamina on the return trip.

[SAMAS]

Big hunks of earth sheltered them, after they were knocked miles away.

We are talking about a person who earlier survived a head-first encounter with a small mountain after getting backhanded half a mile.

They started with no cover whatsoever. You remember what happened whan Neo zoomed through the city in Matrix Reloaded? Buildings shattering, cars trailing in his wake? That's exactly what should have happened to Satan and crew at the battle site. Conclusion: They aren't travelling that fast.

They weren't traveling at all. They were fighting. Fights don't happen at a single constant speed.

You know, If Goku was doing high-intensity training at the levels you are describing, enough to leave him just this side of conscious, the spaceship he was traveling in would never have withstood the stress, considering how they stand up to miniscule energy balls that don't even affect the surrounding area. If he trained at a level survivable by the ship, he wuld not have been exhausted by constantly working out during the entire trip to Namek, again, if he were capable of what you seem to think he is. There's also the fact that going by percentages of energy available, he should have been long unconscious, possibly even dead by the time he reached the state that 100 Gs could kick his ass, presuming he is training at the levels you so blithely assume. Conclusion: He isn't that tough.

Bullshit. The Capsle Spacecraft was never hit at all in the fighting. In fact, nobody ever fought anywhere near it. It stayed in one piece until Namek blew up. And on top of that, it's still bullshit, because the fact that the ship did stay in once piece despite 100-400 Gs being generated inside it, so it is[/i] that tough.

And what difference does him running make if he is still using energy to boost? And him repeating half the trip only weakens your case, because it means that the speed-power level ratios that have been claimed have been consistently bogus. Besides which, I've thought for a while now, that the main difference on the two journeys was that he made the rookie mistake of sprinting the first time, and didn't properly pace himself. By living on King Kai's planet, he was conditioned to constantly survive ten G's worth of pressure, and adjusted so it didn't really affect him, signifigantly improving his stamina on the return trip.

It only makes them bogus for being too low, so it helps us after all. You see, that means the Goku made the entire Snake Way run in a litte more than half a year. The return trip, on the other hand, still stands.

[consequences]

Amd the survival of the rest of the useless normal humans with Satan is explained how?

So instead of a single massive wake, you have an incredible amount of high-speed turbulence tearing across the area, with people getting yanked at high speeds in a dozen directions a second, great improvement there.

And the Capsule Corps spacecraft is more durable how exactly than Frieza or King Cold's ship? Both of which were destroyed with pathetic ease? I'm not talking about 100 g's, I'm referring to the ridiculous amounts of stress that Goku would have to inflict upon it to tire himself out in the timeframe required.

And how exactly does it help you? Goku travelled 1.5x distance in six months, and 1x distance in 2 days after a powerup, a total sustained speed improvement of x60, rather than the x90 that I have always had thrown at me.

[The Drunkard Kid]

The weight/gravity training seems to be more of a genre specific thing, since it doesn't fit in with 99% of the feats in the rest of the show. And that's not even mentioning that the boosts they got isn't really consistent with the comparatively little amount of strain they should have been recieving.

At the start of DB, Goku was taking bullets to the face and picking up jeeps, but he somehow gets stronger from wearing a turtle shell on his back.

By the start of DBZ, he had chopped down a tree that was at least the size of a redwood and was casually dragging it back home, but the weights that had been slowing him down to the point where his power level was about 100 points down, were only around 1000-2000 lbs. IIRC.

He could barely walk in 10Gs, despite the fact that his training in Dragonball included dodging natural lightning bolts after they started firing at him, which would require going at speeds that would produce much greater G forces. Heck, let's not forget that he was *born* in 10Gs (Vegeta-sei has, according to Kaiou-sama, a natural gravity field that's 10X that of Earth's), and his ki level was equal to that of a weak third class Saiyajin (according to Raditz) at the start of DBZ (with at least one power up before he reached Kaiou-sama's planet), so he's as strong as someone who lived and played in a 10G field.

While exhausted and battered, Goku was getting torn apart by the rapidly fluxuating gravity, and continued getting battered when it stabalized at 100Gs. Now remember, he was hanging from his feet, but for some reason the Kamehameha, which has canonically escaped orbit under it's own power, and which had earlier been used to escape the gravitational pull of a freakin' star (another example of him actually deciding to feel the recoil of it), was incapable of travelling the 3-9 feet (depending on the position of his arms) to the hook he was hanging on before the gravity made it turn back on himself. However, once he managed to use horizontal motion to build up momentum and blow himself down, then dragged himself over to the senzu and repowered himself, he was walking around at 100Gs casually.

Vegeta, despite being at least around 5X as strong as Goku after he got to Namek (ie: right after he trained in 100Gs) got a major boost from training in 500Gs.

In the Ano-yo, non-SSJ Goku could barely move while carrying around 40 tons of weights, despite the fact that he was strong enough to casually punch people through mountains and smack people over the horizon, something that would require thousands of tons worth of strength.

In Rurouni Kenshin, Hiko walks around with shoulder-weights that weigh somewhere b/w 80-160 lbs (I'm not sure if it's 80 total, or 80 on each shoulder), which somehow helps restrain him down a lot, despite the fact that even Kenshin shouldn't have much trouble with it. Heck, considering the power behind Kenshin's strikes when he's no longer repressing his Battousai strength, he should have been able to swing around Sano's Zanbatou with just as much ease as the former gangster did.

In Ranma 1/2, Mousse got a massive power boost from carrying around a stone statue for several nights. Considering that Akane could probably chuck said statue a couple of dozen feet at least, and that Ranma in his much weaker girl form can casually swing around Ryouga's umbrella (the same one that Akane couldn't move/could barely move; the art was kinda confusing for that scene) one handed and jump over 30 feet with it, while also carrying Akane. However, Mousse somehow became so strong from such a minor exercise that he was easily overpowering Ranma and splitting giant bells with one punch.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Amd the survival of the rest of the useless normal humans with Satan is explained how?

So instead of a single massive wake, you have an incredible amount of high-speed turbulence tearing across the area, with people getting yanked at high speeds in a dozen directions a second, great improvement there.

And again, for some reason DBZ seems to be penalized for something that nearly every single series that has lightspeed or faster travel methods can feel happy ignoring.

Superman is allowed to fly at near light speed inside an atmosphere and not only talk with others, but also run through cities without tearing them apart. Martian Manhunter can fly around and destroy several bases all over the planet in a few seconds, but no major cities had shattered buildings all over the place.

Ranma's fist speed has to be at least Mach 3 - Mach 40 by Volume 6 (a calculation derived from Akane and Ryouga's [who has no reason to try and make Ranma's attack seem greater than it was, since Ranma's perception speed is high enough that he knows darn well just how many punches he'd actually thrown] guesstimations on how many punches he was throwing, and a minimum estimate on how fast one of Ranma's normal punches would look like), but he never tears apart the surroundings, or even his own clothes from said speed. Heck, Happosai moves fast enough to actually *dodge* said fists after they've started moving, but I don't recall the building they were standing on exploding.

Crap, something the size of a small moon, ie: the Death Star, traveled at near or greater than light speed without collapsing in on itself from the infinite mass it would have gained. Screw the main cannon, it should have been able to destroy Alderaan just by buzzing it's atmosphere for a split second...

[consequences]

Ftl with mechanism is easy, most of them involve spacial relocation without crossing the intervening space, or compressed space travel where they aren't actually breaking lightspeed. Ftl while traversing the full distance while in normal space usually happens because of lousy physics, or crappy authors. Note also, that we have no documented evidence of the Z fighters going ftl, Apart from instant transmission which uses the alternate dimension dodge, and their reasoning for early series near light speed is flimsy at best.

I consider ftl Superman to be garbage as well, but I'm not as familiar with the specifics, and Superman fans haven't been as specifically obnoxious to me as certain Z-fans(no one currently arguing, I think, but they did set the tone for all that followed.) And in case you hadn't noticed, Martian Manhunter seems to be able to walk through solid objects quite easily, as can the Flash when he feels like it, they both could be generating all of the bad effects out of phase with normal space time.

And once again, you've proven my basic point, that Toriyama is worse than B&B at their worst, and any sort of meaningful debate derived from dBZ is impossible.

[KK]

McLoad, if you want to keep bringing up the DBZ debate, do it here.

[Ghost Rider]

Then you make a new Thread...don't bring up dead ones.