A goofy thread that actually makes some sense.

[KK]

Goku's Kamehameha vs. the Death Star superlaser

What level would Goku have to be at to stalemate it?

[Ghost Rider]

Present some calcs then we talk.

Read the website...and you get the low end of the DS beam.

[KK]

When Goku was a child his best Kamehameha could roughly destroy the moon. The Death Star beam would tear right through it.

By the end of the series he is on a level of power that can destroy an entire galaxy. The death Star beam would barely be of note.

What I want to know is exactly where in the series people think he would line up with the Death Star and produce a cool energy struggle.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Don't even acknowledge him, he's proven himself to be a worthless troll.

[Frank Hipper]

Who is Goku and what is he doing with that poor Hawaiian King?

[Kuja]

Goku's Kamehameha vs. the Death Star superlaser

What level would Goku have to be at to stalemate it?

Well, at level 105, Roshi used a Kamehameha to destroy the moon. He had a rough time with it, though.

If my memory serves, Goku has never actually destroyed a planet (not because he can't, he certainly could if he wanted).

At 18,000, Vegeta was about to destroy Earth, and Goku had to match him.

My gues is a PL of 20,000 or so should match the DS, although that would probably leave Goku tired, if not exhausted.

[KK]

Whatever. I was being civil and a couple of unruly guys started insulting me just for liking DBZ. That doesn't in any way make me a troll.


BTW, I typed up a lengthy post pointing out your outright lie about my participation in that thread with plenty of quotes making your statement look utterly false, but the thing had been closed. I don't want to have to post it.

[Kuja]

Who is Goku and what is he doing with that poor Hawaiian King?

ROTFLMAO. It's actually an homage, although the translated version of the show pronounces it wrong.

[KK]

Toriyama's wife actualy made it up. She didn't even know it was the name of a Hawaiian king.

[Crown]

It's been re-opened. I don't want this thread to go down the same path as that one, and speaking of which we now have 3 'goofy' threads, might just close this.

So present some calcs.

[JodoForce]

Hmm... so we have attack power figures that match, for one period of Goku's lifetime anyway. Now the question of course is how much punishment can Goku and the DS take respectively? Certainly if either actually got HIT by his own or his opponent's superweapon he should fall apart / die. Now in DBZ this never happens unless your super attack is inferior in power to your opponent's, because the beams always meet in midair

The problem Goku has is that the DS has a lot more weapons than just the superlaser. If the DS can fire those as well while firing the superlaser then he is screwed. Unless he's gone to uber-strength galaxy-busting level, of course

[Kuja]

So present some calcs.

Calcs are extremely difficult, if not impossible, for DBZ. About the best you can do is make an educated guess, which I did in my first post.

[Crown]

So present some calcs.

Calcs are extremely difficult, if not impossible, for DBZ. About the best you can do is make an educated guess, which I did in my first post.

That's cool, as long as it doesn't degenerate into another spam fest flame war, I'm cool with it.

[JodoForce]

Well, the last BIG BAD VILLAIN(tm) (don't know his English name) definitely exceeds the power of the DS as he destroyed the Earth with a casual normal-attack blast after he reverted to his original form (least powerful). (might have even shattered it) Don't know whether Goku could have defeated him with the Kamehameha, though, because he got tired charging it up while in Super Saiyan mode 3 and it fizzled out.

[JodoForce]

The last big bad villian is Buu, apparently.

[Connor MacLeod]

So present some calcs.

Calcs are extremely difficult, if not impossible, for DBZ. About the best you can do is make an educated guess, which I did in my first post.

Then why is it DBZ fanboys always a resort to the logic "x character can destroy planets - he wins!" type logic? Some people wonder why DBZ fans get such low regard - they show an utter ignorance of and interest in presenting a logical, well thought out argunment.

[ShinjiGohan]

So present some calcs.

Calcs are extremely difficult, if not impossible, for DBZ. About the best you can do is make an educated guess, which I did in my first post.

Then why is it DBZ fanboys always a resort to the logic "x character can destroy planets - he wins!" type logic? Some people wonder why DBZ fans get such low regard - they show an utter ignorance of and interest in presenting a logical, well thought out argunment.

I don't use that as a deciding factor. I'm rather unsure of who'd win Superman or Goku, but having the ability to at the end of the show shot ki blasts that are more powerful than Superman punches without tiring you out does help.

And unless its completely lopsided and people still say that the underdogs would slaughter someone like Goku, then I bring it up. As its just completely illogical for someone who can at least destroy a solar system (SSJ2) would lose to some human with a few week force techniques and weak TK abilities.

As for the topic on hand.

Roshi blew up the moon.
Vegeta could blow up the earth (which is said to be very large for a solid planet): saiya jin saga
Ultra Perfect Cell could blow up the solar system.
Buu may have been able to destroy the galaxy in a single blast. However that isn't known for sure. However Brolly has destroyed the southern galaxy in about 15 seconds.

And somewhere along the line, falls the death star.

Since Roshi at a supposive PL of 139 could blow up the moon, and the moon is 1/6th the size of the earth. shouldn't 6 times Roshi's PL be enough to blow up the earth? Logically I'd think so.

Which would then mean that Goku at the beginning of DBZ should be just barely able to blow up the earth if he really really wanted to.

After the Kaiousama training, he can do it for sure.

Also keep in mind, that our moon is also one of the biggest moons out there, larger than some planets. So if we could find out how large the planet the Death Star blew up in SW ep4 was, that could have made the blast from the death star on par with Roshi, up to probably Vegeta (saiya jin saga PL of 18,000)at the very most.

So I'd say Goku after the Kaiousama training.

[Connor MacLeod]

AS I said, you don't present a logical, well thought out argument.

Now, as an example of one reason WHY I consider you guys to be so utterly unscientific, lets use the old "single person possessing enough raw energy to destroy a planet."

Now, we know how much energy is approximately required to destroy an earthlike planet. (2.2e32 joules) We can also extrapolate the momentum of such a blast, knowing the energy output. Now, does anyone care to figure out what the problem would BE with this? Hint: Think conservation of momentum and recoil, and just how much momentum a planet-destroying blast would carry.

Also consider what that same momentum would do to an object of about man-size mass. (hint, momentum is mass x velocity)

[ShinjiGohan]

Or it could be that they never explained it in that much detail in the manga/anime. Thus we have to rely of PL's.

And aside from that, how would you go gauging someone from DBZ doing this? Scouters weren't around during the tourniment when Roshi destroyed the moon. Which was assumed to required everything that he had.

And just how destroyed is an earth like planet from the 2.2e32 joules anyway? Is it just barely broken up into 2 halfs, or has it been reduced to space dust. Your explaination wasn't very clear either.

[ShinjiGohan]

Well, Connor MacLeod, would you prefer me saying what I'm going to say with this topic in clausal form? Predicate Calculas, Conceptal Graphs? Or what have you?

[Connor MacLeod]

Or it could be that they never explained it in that much detail in the manga/anime. Thus we have to rely of PL's.

This has nothing to do with the manga or anime explaining something or power levels. It has to deal with reconciling observed feats and activities in a scientifically plausible fashion rather than some knee-jerk qualitative fanboy assertion. I have yet to meet a DBZ fan who actually makes a serious effort at analyzing the "claimed" events to come out with any sort of rational analysis.

A practical debate is only possible under quantifiable terms. Power levels might work in internal-DBZ discussions, but they dont tell us much about how DBZ fares against other universes (and the usual qualitative fanboy-crap I talked about before is hardly helpful either.) If you're going to debate or make claims, you have to back them up. You can't do alot of hand waving and pretend science doesnt exist.

Besides which, there's also the small matter of Frieza taking FIVE MINUTES to destroy a planet - a DET event would be near-instantaneous destruction.

And aside from that, how would you go gauging someone from DBZ doing this? Scouters weren't around during the tourniment when Roshi destroyed the moon. Which was assumed to required everything that he had.

The same way other universes are gauged, by observation and quantification of abilities. Is there some reason you think we cannot apply the scientific method to the DBZ universe?

And just how destroyed is an earth like planet from the 2.2e32 joules anyway? Is it just barely broken up into 2 halfs, or has it been reduced to space dust. Your explaination wasn't very clear either.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... hStar.html

Basically, 2e32 joules is required to scatter the mass of a planet, death-star style (to do so you need to accelerate the planet's mass to escape velocity, to overcome its own gravity, in order to scatter the mass.) In the case of the Death Star, the "escape velocitY" of the debris is substantially faster, so the energy input from the superlaser beam was proportionately greater. And this event is very rapid (like under a second, IIRC Alderaan correctly.)

[ShinjiGohan]

Alright fine, it takes roughly 1.261E+27 joules of energy to destroy the moon, which Roshi was able to do with a PL of roughly 139.

So it stands to chance that someone of say Vegeta, with a Pl of 18,000 is capable of 1.6329496402877697841726618705036e+32 joules of energy.

While Goku who had a max PL of 32,000 during the saiya jin arc was capable of 2.9030215827338129496402877697842e+32 joules of energy.

Goku on Namek without Kaiouken had a PL of 60,000 was capable of 5.4431654676258992805755395683453e+32 joules of energy.

With Kaiouken, his PL was at 180,000, at which point he was capable of 1.6329496402877697841726618705036e+33 joules of energy.

When he first fought Freezer without the Kaiouken his PL was 375,000, so he was capable of 3.4019784172661870503597122302158e+33 of energy.

While SSJ Goku at a PL of 15,000,000 was capable of 1.3607913669064748201438848920863e+35 joules of energy.

If we could figure out how much joules it takes to blow up a solar system, we could figure out Ultra Perfect Cell's PL.

But I think I satisfied your requirements.

BTW all calcuations used the lower limit for destroying the moon.

[JodoForce]

AS I said, you don't present a logical, well thought out argument.

Now, as an example of one reason WHY I consider you guys to be so utterly unscientific, lets use the old "single person possessing enough raw energy to destroy a planet."

Now, we know how much energy is approximately required to destroy an earthlike planet. (2.2e32 joules) We can also extrapolate the momentum of such a blast, knowing the energy output. Now, does anyone care to figure out what the problem would BE with this? Hint: Think conservation of momentum and recoil, and just how much momentum a planet-destroying blast would carry.

Also consider what that same momentum would do to an object of about man-size mass. (hint, momentum is mass x velocity)

We saw it happen in the cartoons, therefore it did happen. Suspension of disbelief, remember? Now, there are cases in other stories where the storyline implies one explanation that is scientifically implausible, whereas there is a scientifically plausible explanation that is not obvious at first but is actually consistent with the observed evidence. (e.g. power figures for Clan mechs, IIRC; the story seems to imply high-powered weapons but based on the fact that none of the mechs fall over when firing and their weapons only damage other mechs, another plausible explanation is that the mech weapons are weak); however this is simply not the case here--

We SEE the original form Buu fire a normal attack blast at the earth. (such blasts cn be flung at multiple shots per second).
We SEE everyone gasp in horror and say the earth is goner (OBVIOUSLY BECAUSE OF THE BLAST)
We SEE Goku desperately trying to save the people around him in time by getting a hold on everybody and then teleporting to King Kai's planet.
We SEE Earth blowing apart.

As a brilliant start to your 'scientific investigation of DBZ' , are you going to try to argue that

1. Buu did not destroy the earth
or
2. The earth was not destroyed?



Perhaps you are going to claim (1) by saying that someone planted a multi-zillion ton antimatter bomb and set it to go off the moment Buu's blast hit the earth?

Now, there ARE ways to rationalize the lack of recoil. For one thing, it's obvious that it is an ENERGY blast and not some kind of KE projectile--did you consider that perhaps the damage has something to do with other forms of energy transfer like, oh I don't know, HEAT???

Then why is it DBZ fanboys always a resort to the logic "x character can destroy planets - he wins!" type logic? Some people wonder why DBZ fans get such low regard - they show an utter ignorance of and interest in presenting a logical, well thought out argunment.

'DBZ fanboys' don't ordinarily tax their brains much because they shouldn't really need to--don't you think that "x character can destroy planets - he wins!" is quite a convincing argument already if the statement can be proved true by direct observation of the show?

[JodoForce]

Even IF the energy of the blasts were all delivered in KE (there is no reason to think this is so) remember that these fighters are able to propel themselves at great speeds (lightspeed and beyond apparently, if some of the others' claims are to be believed) through air and space--they could be just using their movement ability to counteract the recoil of their blasts.

[JodoForce]

Brute force kills people. It's the same argument this board has been using against ST since eternity you know. But against DBZ, brute force is on their side not yours. Is that so hard to understand?