Magic Must Be (RAR!)

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Magic Must Be (RAR!)

Post by Majin Gojira » 2019-07-30 11:15pm

Q Has Selected You to grant Magic to the Universe! You can choose systems of Magic from fiction and they will become part of the world, seeping everywhere and bringing both its positives and negatives along with it. IE: If you choose anything that calls on gods or other things, those beings now have influence in the world.

You must choose 8. What do you choose?

What do you think the ramifications of the Magic would be?

To help clarify things, I fully consider "Psychic Powers" to be just magic, reskinned thanks to Spiritualism. Ki/Chi crazy kung-fu fighting also falls under "Magic" for this challenge.

The rules of each system don't interact ... unless you want them too.

Have at it!
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Re: Magic Must Be (RAR!)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-30 11:23pm

Majin Gojira wrote:
2019-07-30 11:15pm
Q Has Selected You to grant Magic to the Universe! You can choose systems of Magic from fiction and they will become part of the world, seeping everywhere and bringing both its positives and negatives along with it. IE: If you choose anything that calls on gods or other things, those beings now have influence in the world.

You must choose 8. What do you choose?

What do you think the ramifications of the Magic would be?

To help clarify things, I fully consider "Psychic Powers" to be just magic, reskinned thanks to Spiritualism. Ki/Chi crazy kung-fu fighting also falls under "Magic" for this challenge.

The rules of each system don't interact ... unless you want them too.

Have at it!
Choose carefully. There are a lot of magical systems that have very nasty ethical implications (casual mind-control being one of the most common). Not to mention the possibility of adding actual deities to the world.

If permitted, I would simply create eight systems of my own, so I could carefully tailor their rules.

Also, does introducing these things including just confirmed canon, or implied/debated canon? What if its a franchise with no clear canon policy? Etc. And if a system of magic includes specific artifacts, to those artifacts appear in our world as well? If, for example, I chose to introduce Buffyverse magic to the real world, would things like the Book of Magic, the Scythe, and the Gem of Amara pop into existence? Would the prophecies of that universe be in effect? Would a certain number of vampires spontaneously pop up in our world, or just the Old One who created vampires, who could then create new ones from scratch? What about the Slayer lineage? Would there suddenly retroactively be a line of girls with demonic monster fighting powers stretching back to the stone age? Or would a Slayer line be created now? Would I have to decide who the first Slayer is?

Suppose I introduce two systems with incompatible rules (for example, a system which is built around a single all-powerful deity vs. one which isn't)? And on that note, can we use an actual real-world religion as a "magic system"?

Oh Q, you really fucked us on this one.
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Re: Magic Must Be (RAR!)

Post by LaCroix » 2019-07-31 06:29am

Just wish for Shadowrun Magic.

Reasonable magic where one peron can't destroy the universe, astral plane exists, elementals...

Goblinisation hits the world, transforming a good chunk of people into fairytale creatures, creates magical animals.

And the native american nations gain so much power due to their magic that they can reclaim their land.

It would be glorious.
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Re: Magic Must Be (RAR!)

Post by LadyTevar » 2019-07-31 09:26am

LaCroix wrote:
2019-07-31 06:29am
Just wish for Shadowrun Magic.

Reasonable magic where one person can't destroy the universe, astral plane exists, elementals...

Goblinisation hits the world, transforming a good chunk of people into fairytale creatures, creates magical animals.

And the native american nations gain so much power due to their magic that they can reclaim their land.

It would be glorious.
Just as long as we choke the Corps out, it'd be better.
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Re: Magic Must Be (RAR!)

Post by Raw Shark » 2019-07-31 09:56am

Why 8, specifically? Is Discworld Magic the meta rules that trumps all else?

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Re: Magic Must Be (RAR!)

Post by Majin Gojira » 2019-07-31 03:14pm

Raw Shark wrote:
2019-07-31 09:56am
Why 8, specifically? Is Discworld Magic the meta rules that trumps all else?
Originally I thought it would be 4 systems, but then decided to be a little nuts and doubled it.
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Re: Magic Must Be (RAR!)

Post by Majin Gojira » 2019-07-31 03:25pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-30 11:23pm
If permitted, I would simply create eight systems of my own, so I could carefully tailor their rules.
You can make 2.
Also, does introducing these things including just confirmed canon, or implied/debated canon?
You get to decide this.
What if its a franchise with no clear canon policy? Etc.
You get to fill in the blanks.
And if a system of magic includes specific artifacts, to those artifacts appear in our world as well?
The support systems for the magic, fueling entities, and the like, do show up.
Suppose I introduce two systems with incompatible rules (for example, a system which is built around a single all-powerful deity vs. one which isn't)?
You get to decide how they interact.

I know it seems like a "You decide" but the devil here is truly in the details.
And on that note, can we use an actual real-world religion as a "magic system"?
Absolutely! Though it would apply to 'families' of religions rather than one individual denomination/religion.
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Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.

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Re: Magic Must Be (RAR!)

Post by Formless » 2019-07-31 07:34pm

Oh, this is easy. I don't even have to contradict myself and come up with 8.

Final Fantasy 1

Final Fantasy 2

Final Fantasy 3

Final Fantasy 4

Final Fantasy 5

Final Fantasy Tactics

Final Fantasy 11

Final Fantasy 14

:D

I'm kidding-- but seriously, besides Final Fantasy games my approach would be to find eight different magic systems that are all Mana based so that a) all magic could be understood by anyone and by scientists in particular as a physical system of mana interacting with mana b) there is no need to invoke fictitious religions and deities c) there is generally a unifying theme that makes all magic cross-compatible. So without further ado, here are the eight examples I have come up with:

1) The five colors of magic, Magic: the Gathering. If I were being cheeky I could argue that this is five systems in one package, but I won't because that gives us an extra four systems to play with (okay, so I am a bit cheeky). This gives us an origin for mana and a way to categorize mana into six flavors to explain its various effects (White, Green, Red, Black, Blue, and Colorless). Mana technically comes from leylines in the Blind Eternities that physically manifests in the land and can be harnessed by anyone with sufficient mental connections to the philosophy of a certain form of magic, or simply strong emotional connections to the land that it comes from. It does technically bring in a multiverse, but you need to be bron with the Spark to actually visit other planes, so its mostly irrelevant to us (for now). Artifice also proves that it plays well with technology. And religion isn't necessary to the world building of any particular plane in M:tG-- while gods exist on some planes, they are very specifically the manifestations of a plane's magic rather than the ones granting it, and Angels, Demons, and spirits are simlarly creatures of pure mana. Some crazy shit can be done with this system that can't with many others such as time travel, but you're talking really advanced spellasting or artifice here that will take a while before anyone discovers it.

2) Nanoha-verse magic. Also a mana-based system (of course), but this time you need to be born a mage in order to practice this form of magic. Mages have a special (apparently ethereal) organ called a Linker Core that basically breathes mana and also stores the information needed to cast spells. Mages can be quite potent, but Magical attacks are famously less lethal in Nanoha. Magic here also synergizes with technology very well, and specifically synergizes with computing technology because of the heavy amounts of math a mage must be able to do in their head to cast spells (geometry, calculus, and computer programming are the usual prerequisites to be really good at it). That may relate to why the mage organ is called a Linker Core, in reference to its ability to link up with technologies that store spells. This also brings with it Dimensional Magic and a possible multiverse, but you need advanced technology or very difficult spellcraft to access the Dimensional Sea as its called. Technically, similar technologies also exist in M:tG as well, but are less common. Mana-based creatures can also exist in this system, much like in M:tG.

3) Psionics as portrayed in D&D 3.5 and D20 Modern. Because it used the Power Points system instead of the Spells Per Day system of the "true" magic classes in D&D, it could be ruled to use Mana, particularly Blue mana from M:tG. Its convenient, because it helps our scientists find a lingo to talk about magic-- basically, they get to use the language of Paranormal investigators and Para-psychology in order to begin studying magic. The effects of Psionics are also much, much more muted than the more insane spells that Arcane casters use in the rest of D&D, and also don't require the existence of gods. It may require the existence of the Astral and/or Ethereal planes, but little else-- and the Dimensional Sea/Blind Eternities may qualify as a substitute. Finally, in D&D at least, psions are usually forced to specialize in a particular aspect of psionic power, eg. Psychokinesis VS Telepathy VS Body Enhancement. This isn't so much the case in D20 Modern, however, but that game aimed for more muted paranormal effects to begin with. Finally, you get things like Psionic crystals and other new age stuff that was there to supplant magic items, but like everything else in the psionics system, its famously way better balanced than D&D's normal magic system.

4) Final Fantasy's most used spellcasting system. You know, the one with Black, Blue, White, and Red mages. Again, power comes from mana, and while it is class based system, its a bit less crazy than the classes in D&D where wizards spend years in scholarly research just to cast level 1 spells while Sorcerers are born doing it and Warlocks can just make a pact with a fairy or demon or something to do the same. All four jobs require specialized training, and are pretty similar to the colors of Magic in M:tG sans one color. Oh, and woe be to anyone who beats up a spellcaster for too long without finishing the fight, because Limit Breaks are a thing in most Final Fantasy games.

5) Path of Exile's system. This is very similar to Final Fantasy VII's system, in that you use crystals set into weapons or staves to channel mana into spells, but the crystals aren't formed from the lifeforce of the Earth or anything dangerous like that. The crystals just seem to exist, and there is no confirmed origin story for them, just rumors. Anyone can use the crystals to start casting spells, different crystal types can combine to get new abilities, but its balanced by the rarity of the crystals and therefore the economy. Mana still comes from the user, though, and there are mana potions to help you keep your power replenished just like in other Diablo-like games. This doesn't bring with it any of the abyssal and celestial planar BS from Diablo, fortunately, so we are safe from that.

6) Bending, Avatar: The Legend of Korra. There is no need for spirits or avatars or anything like that, although the Spirit World could be ruled to be another dimension in the Dimensional Sea/Blind Eternities. All it really needs is Chi, AKA personal mana, and again you have four--technically five-- forms of Bending corresponding to the classical elements. Bending requires training in martial arts, and can't really do anything rediculous or more powerful than the other five forms of magic seen thus far. It also requires attunement to a particular life philosophy or spirituality just like the Five Colors, though the philosophies are a bit different. Again, this is another system where you must be born able to use it or you just can't. But I'm sure most people here knew that already.

7) Ultima's hybrid mana/reagent system. Mana provides the energy needed to cast a spell, but spell effects are determined by mixing together alchemical reagents and incantations based on a consistent and well documented linguistic system. This allowed players to gain access to powerful spells early in the game if they could remember the ingredients list from previous games, but balanced that by forcing you to actually find said ingredients. This gives everyone which more of a mind for cooking and chemistry a convenient alternative to the more math or psychological forms of magic provided by the other systems.

8) And finally, we'll use Pathfinder's take on the (Unchained) Monk and Ninja as examples of what a non-Bender can do with Chi if they put the time and effort into training their body and mind. Note that some of the Qui-Gong and other abilities available to monks overlap with Bending, but bending is both more sophisticated and comes more naturally to them. And really, its nothing too crazy compared to what can be achieved with the other forms of magic.

Again, Chi is basically just internal mana, so it should interact just fine with the other 6 systems.

And look at that! No need to invent a system of my own. Although the sheer number of systems you ask for is still a bit ridiculous as I would have preferred to not have to resort to Chi and Psionic energy to round out the list. BUt I did, and it still works.
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Re: Magic Must Be (RAR!)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-08-04 09:53pm

Majin Gojira wrote:
2019-07-31 03:25pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-30 11:23pm
If permitted, I would simply create eight systems of my own, so I could carefully tailor their rules.
You can make 2.
Goodie. :D I will gleefully abuse the hell out of this loophole, along with the "you decide which system takes precedence" rule described below. Something like this:

System 1. Magic is an energy force existing in and connecting all things.

Via a state of deep meditation, people can access this force. There is no special magic gene- anyone who can achieve the necessary state of mind can access magic.

You cannot use magic accidentally- only by a deliberate act of will. Further, what you will to happen must be clearly, precisely articulated, either in speech or text.

There is no "dark" or innately corrupting magic- only wicked acts.

Magic cannot be used to directly effect a sapient being except by that being's legally adult, informed, uncoerced, not-under-the-influence-of-any-intoxicating-substance consent, or to raise or bind a dead being in any way, or to control a living creature's mind/nervous system or possess them.

If two magic user's spells clash, the more focussed mind will triumph.

There are no deities or other supernatural entities, unless they are omniscient and purely benevolent, or their existence pre-dates the existence of this system (don't want to accidentally genocide a race of gods, destroy metaphysical underpinnings of the universe, or piss off Q or create a paradox by trying to delete him from existence).

Time travel is not possible except for closed loop, self-fulfilling prophecy time travel. Heck, I might just bar time travel all together.

Magic can only affect things within a one-kilometer radius of the caster.

Otherwise, there are no limits to what you can do with magic. Want to vaporize everything within a diameter of yourself? Knock yourself out.

This system shall supercede all others in existence.

Basically, my best shot at an idiot-and-abuse-proof magical system.

System 2. Anyone who attempts to circumvent the first system will be instantly incapacitated and mind wiped. Any individual who makes a second attempt will be instantly deleted from existence.

Systems 3-8. Whatever does not contradict the above of:

Harry Potter.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
The Lord of the Rings.
The Dresden Files.
Doctor Strange.
The Force.
You get to decide this.
Narrowest definition of confirmed canon for all systems. Easier to predict and control.
You get to fill in the blanks.
Again, as narrow as possible (see above).
The support systems for the magic, fueling entities, and the like, do show up.
So any system based on deities brings in those deities. That'll get messy fast.
You get to decide how they interact.
Excellent (see my first point).
I know it seems like a "You decide" but the devil here is truly in the details.
Indeed.
Absolutely! Though it would apply to 'families' of religions rather than one individual denomination/religion.
So if we picked, say, Christian mythology, would that bring in all Christian traditions (or even all Abrahamic ones)? What about ones that are incompatible on major details of the theology, like, say Mormonism and Catholicism?
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Re: Magic Must Be (RAR!)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-08-04 10:14pm

Oh, system one will also require use of a talisman or wand (can be any object made of wood and carved with a specific symbol, let's say a circle). Easy enough to make so that magic won't be limited to the rich, but still making it possible to disarm a wizard if one must be contained.

I'm torn on whether to add a "no spell that will cause the death of a sapient being, even indirectly" clause. It might be a good safeguard, but it might be too prohibitive, given the right to self-defense and especially depending on how broadly "indirectly" is defined (anything can have unexpected negative side effects).

Edit: Could also add something like: "No changes will be made to pre-existing physical or metaphysical laws of the universe." (because I'm smart enough not to try tampering with that shit). But the wording must be considered carefully to make sure there are no unintended contradictions or dangerous loopholes.

Oh, and sign language will count for the articulating spells bit. Which means apes can be taught to use magic, potentially. :D
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Re: Magic Must Be (RAR!)

Post by Raw Shark » 2019-08-05 11:17am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-08-04 10:14pm
Oh, and sign language will count for the articulating spells bit. Which means apes can be taught to use magic, potentially. :D
Dude. This community WMDized chimpanzees armed with switchblades and airtight C&C, you might as well just give them nukes and speed it up.

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Re: Magic Must Be (RAR!)

Post by Solauren » 2019-08-05 12:52pm

I'd be considering implementing magic as it exists in the Palladium RPGS, specifically RIFTS.

Without active leylines, it would be just about useless :)
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Re: Magic Must Be (RAR!)

Post by Formless » 2019-08-05 02:37pm

Solauren wrote:
2019-08-05 12:52pm
I'd be considering implementing magic as it exists in the Palladium RPGS, specifically RIFTS.

Without active leylines, it would be just about useless :)
If you think you are being clever by trying to create a non-functional system on Earth, it won't work. MG clearly said that all the elements needed to make the system work come into existence with the system, including gods, higher dimensions/planes, whatever. Plus, its supposed to be 8 systems, not just one. Otherwise, this would just be a rehash of Sorchus's "Magic Must Happen RAR" from 7 years back. At least think of two so we can talk about how they interact.

(P.S. not accusing you of ripping off my bro, Maijin. Its nice to see how the forum has changed since 2012. Oh, and Sorchus actually thinks the most interesting thing in this scenario would be if you specifically said the systems have to differ from one another in some significant respect.)
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Re: Magic Must Be (RAR!)

Post by TheFeniX » 2019-08-05 04:17pm

Solauren wrote:
2019-08-05 12:52pm
I'd be considering implementing magic as it exists in the Palladium RPGS, specifically RIFTS.
Without active leylines, it would be just about useless :)
Even without ley lines, PPE and ISP can be drained (in multiple ways, including murder) from other people/animals and is recovered on it's own. Without ley lines, many of the more world-bending/destroying magics wouldn't be possible without dozens of practitioners (and maybe not even then) but there's still more than enough magic to go around. A single power-bolt (a "minor" spell) can damage tanks and other MDC armor.

Magic users/psionics would be much easier to contain/control without ley lines, however they would still be incredibly dangerous.

If the Rifts are a thing, then you REALLY don't want it.

Depending on the game, it varies, but a common theme of Final Fantasy is that magic usage can be incredibly dangerous to the user and the world. For the game with the largest established lore-base: in FFXIV, using white magic without the benefit of the elementals literally drains your life force and will kill you. Black Magic, due to both the power it gives and the magic itself, is naturally corrupting. Not to mention the "soul" exists in Final Fantasy (Aether) and is something that you yourself can drain for power and others can do so. FF magic comes with tons of baggage. For one, the Planet/Star has it's own soul/will and can be drained and destroyed. Imagine if we pumped too much oil out of the ground and the world collapsed in on itself when we drained enough. Not to mention that enough whackjobs together, with enough Aether, can summon shadows of Gods that are incredibly destructive, brainwash anyone in their vicinity, and also drain Aether from the planet at stupidly high rates.

Shadowrun is a bit "better" in this area. The "Corp shit" came to pass before magic: the world isn't there in reality so that alone makes the world a better place. There would be no Ghost Dance since there was no "Final Solution" to the Native Americans. However, the magic is also dangerous to the user (and others). I harp on this because in systems like DnD: you might kill yourself by misaiming a fireball, but the act of CASTING the fireball can't kill you. Unlike in Shadowrun where it can blow blood vessels and all other cool stuff.

The lore washes over it, but in the early days of the reawakening: there had to have been multiple instances of kids hitting the awakening and casting spells out of spontaneity or seemingly so. While the rules cover "learning" a spell through training, the lore goes into how, for instance, a Physical Adept might learn "improved athletics" just by training as an athlete. So... you're practicing your "five-point exploding heart technique" for kicks because you're a kid and kids ape movies. Then you get into a fist fight and, literally, blow up some kid's heart because you trained yourself in Killing Hands without knowing it. Or you think, "Man, I wish the teacher would just let me pass this class" so you try to Jedi Mind Trick and it turns out your straight As were because you learned to dominate minds without knowing it.

No matter what system comes up, better hide under a rock for at least a decade. Shit's going to be rough.

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Re: Magic Must Be (RAR!)

Post by Solauren » 2019-08-05 04:24pm

Yeah, if my suggestion Palladium gets the R.O.B to say 'Ley Lines and Rifts!' I go 'NO'.

I really don't want to see Earth invaded by things that Cthulhu approves of.
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Re: Magic Must Be (RAR!)

Post by Solauren » 2019-08-05 04:26pm

Formless wrote:
2019-08-05 02:37pm
Solauren wrote:
2019-08-05 12:52pm
I'd be considering implementing magic as it exists in the Palladium RPGS, specifically RIFTS.

Without active leylines, it would be just about useless :)
If you think you are being clever by trying to create a non-functional system on Earth, it won't work. MG clearly said that all the elements needed to make the system work come into existence with the system, including gods, higher dimensions/planes, whatever. Plus, its supposed to be 8 systems, not just one. Otherwise, this would just be a rehash of Sorchus's "Magic Must Happen RAR" from 7 years back. At least think of two so we can talk about how they interact.

(P.S. not accusing you of ripping off my bro, Maijin. Its nice to see how the forum has changed since 2012. Oh, and Sorchus actually thinks the most interesting thing in this scenario would be if you specifically said the systems have to differ from one another in some significant respect.)
Actually, was thinking more the mega-leylines from RIFTS. They are not needed persay, but make things really easy.

They also required a precise stellar/planar alignment, a nuclear exchange, and 200 million or so deaths, followed by the billions of deaths from the resulting Rifts, to fuel to the point they are at.

Also, that experiment in Japan, effectively on the otherside of the world from the nuclear exchange and stellar alignment, probably contributed.
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Formless
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Re: Magic Must Be (RAR!)

Post by Formless » 2019-08-06 03:40am

TheFeniX wrote:
2019-08-05 04:17pm
Depending on the game, it varies, but a common theme of Final Fantasy is that magic usage can be incredibly dangerous to the user and the world. For the game with the largest established lore-base: in FFXIV, using white magic without the benefit of the elementals literally drains your life force and will kill you. Black Magic, due to both the power it gives and the magic itself, is naturally corrupting. Not to mention the "soul" exists in Final Fantasy (Aether) and is something that you yourself can drain for power and others can do so. FF magic comes with tons of baggage. For one, the Planet/Star has it's own soul/will and can be drained and destroyed. Imagine if we pumped too much oil out of the ground and the world collapsed in on itself when we drained enough. Not to mention that enough whackjobs together, with enough Aether, can summon shadows of Gods that are incredibly destructive, brainwash anyone in their vicinity, and also drain Aether from the planet at stupidly high rates.
That's the thing though-- it does vary. A lot. In Final Fantasy X there is no indication that the planet has a Will of its own, but there is an afterlife and physical ghosts in the form of Fiends that will attack the living. Then again, if you count X-2, it might be possible to drain the afterlife with similar effects on the planet to Final Fantasy VII's Mako reactors. Its unclear because the Al-Bhed haven't gotten that far with the technology before the story ends. On the other hand, in VII there technically isn't any such thing as "black" and "white" magic-- spells are spells, and they are classified instead by the kinds of Materia they come from. So "black" magic isn't inherently corrupting like in Final Fantasy XIV-- but there is instead an inherent ethical dilemma to using it. Ultimately, the characters still use it all the time, as Cloud had a huge stash of materia in the movie. Final Fantasy VIII technically had a Vanican style spellcasting system, just like D&D, which sets it appart from all the other Final Fantasy titles. Its not necessarily fun, depending on who you ask, but its different. The danger posed by magic totally depends on which game you pull from, and a lot of the earlier titles (i.e. Vi and earlier) tended to create world threatening danger from cosmic cycles of destruction and cataclysm. Which is how the Lost Civilization trope first got cemented into a franchise staple.

I mean, no matter which form of magic chosen you are right that it will be extremely disruptive to the status quo and likely bring with it danger simply because of what it enables people to do. Its almost a necessary part of magic in fiction, because real cultures all seem to have attributed magic the ability to harm as well as heal. Dump that onto our unsuspecting world, and suddenly all existing methods of controlling violence in our society will need to be revamped. Hell, that one time I made a RAR where I just introduced Pokemon to the real world, someone proposed that this would likely result in European countries relaxing their weapons laws just to give citizens better means of protecting themselves against the critters. And that's a franchise for kids! Final Fantasy, D&D, MtG, and most other RPGs are for teens and adults, so the nasty shit you can accomplish with all of them is way worse. That's partly why I included Nanoha-style magic in my first post, as its the only one I can think of that gives magic a Star Trek style stun setting. On spells that can appear to nuke a city, no less. Its not exactly a harmless system, but at least you get the option.
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