The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by Crazedwraith » 2019-06-26 02:03pm

Okay what do the people saying the Doctor 'is not that pacifist' and 'is right in his element' actually think the Doctor will do?

His usual MO is either talk someone to death or technobabble them to death and I'm not sure what good either will be on Thanos.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by Tribble » 2019-06-26 03:17pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-06-26 02:03pm
Okay what do the people saying the Doctor 'is not that pacifist' and 'is right in his element' actually think the Doctor will do?

His usual MO is either talk someone to death or technobabble them to death and I'm not sure what good either will be on Thanos.
Apart from being able to travel to any point in space and time? The Doctor would probably give some advice and help them recover the Infinity Stones with the Tardis.

If this isn’t a fixed point in time the Doctor and Tardis would probably be able to pull off a win with the only casualty being whoever was sacrificed for the Soul Stone (assuming the Doctor cannot technobabble a way out). With the Tardis they wouldn’t have to wait 5 years and could do each mission together as a full team. They could travel in space and time as many times as needed to get the job done. And even if past Thanos becomes aware of what’s going on he’s unlikely to be able to do anything about it let alone steal the Tardis and put it to use. Without Thanos getting access to Pym particles and time travel the final battle wouldn’t happen, which is exactly what the Doctor would prefer. No need for a direct confrontation at all.

If it is a fixed point, then the Doctor may offer some advice, but that’s about it. He’d already know the outcome and that it’s the best one available in the circumstances.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by Crazedwraith » 2019-06-26 03:23pm

Tribble wrote:
2019-06-26 03:17pm
Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-06-26 02:03pm
Okay what do the people saying the Doctor 'is not that pacifist' and 'is right in his element' actually think the Doctor will do?

His usual MO is either talk someone to death or technobabble them to death and I'm not sure what good either will be on Thanos.
Apart from being able to travel to any point in space and time? The Doctor would probably give some advice and help them recover the Infinity Stones with the Tardis.
Yes, I agree he could help the Avengers with time travel and all that, people are talking like he could or would directly confront Thanos and come out on top.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by Tribble » 2019-06-26 04:20pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-06-26 03:23pm
Tribble wrote:
2019-06-26 03:17pm
Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-06-26 02:03pm
Okay what do the people saying the Doctor 'is not that pacifist' and 'is right in his element' actually think the Doctor will do?

His usual MO is either talk someone to death or technobabble them to death and I'm not sure what good either will be on Thanos.
Apart from being able to travel to any point in space and time? The Doctor would probably give some advice and help them recover the Infinity Stones with the Tardis.
Yes, I agree he could help the Avengers with time travel and all that, people are talking like he could or would directly confront Thanos and come out on top.
Well, IMO the Doctor has access to enough goodies that he could take out Thanos single handed if sufficiently pissed off, though I agree that’s not his normal attitude. Much more likely he’d do the above.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by Solauren » 2019-06-26 06:23pm

mr friendly guy wrote:
2019-06-25 08:29pm
Solauren wrote:
2019-06-25 08:17pm
Question, if the Doctor go Thanos inside the Tardis somehow (say materializing it around him), would that protect the rest of the universe from the Snap?

Also, Doctor Who can travel the Marvel multi-verse? Holy shit, the firepower he could bring to bare on Thanos if need be....
Well according to marvel the infinity gems only work in their respective universes. So the inside of the TARDIS is another universe, so it wouldn't just protect the rest of the universe, it would strip the gauntlet of its power.
So, trick or Knock Thanos into the TARDIS, where he's just strong/tough, and then let the Avengers rip him apart?
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-26 06:48pm

Tribble wrote:
2019-06-26 03:17pm
Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-06-26 02:03pm
Okay what do the people saying the Doctor 'is not that pacifist' and 'is right in his element' actually think the Doctor will do?

His usual MO is either talk someone to death or technobabble them to death and I'm not sure what good either will be on Thanos.
Apart from being able to travel to any point in space and time? The Doctor would probably give some advice and help them recover the Infinity Stones with the Tardis.

If this isn’t a fixed point in time the Doctor and Tardis would probably be able to pull off a win with the only casualty being whoever was sacrificed for the Soul Stone (assuming the Doctor cannot technobabble a way out). With the Tardis they wouldn’t have to wait 5 years and could do each mission together as a full team. They could travel in space and time as many times as needed to get the job done. And even if past Thanos becomes aware of what’s going on he’s unlikely to be able to do anything about it let alone steal the Tardis and put it to use. Without Thanos getting access to Pym particles and time travel the final battle wouldn’t happen, which is exactly what the Doctor would prefer. No need for a direct confrontation at all.

If it is a fixed point, then the Doctor may offer some advice, but that’s about it. He’d already know the outcome and that it’s the best one available in the circumstances.
I wonder if the Doctor would be willing to make the sacrifice for the Soul Stone (probably it depends on the Doctor, and who the other options were- I could see some versions manipulating a villain who wanted to atone into taking the jump if the option presented itself, but sacrificing themself rather than letting a Companion do it). Also, if the Soul Stone sacrifice would perma-kill the Doctor (insofar as someone can be perma-killed in a setting with casual time alteration), or whether regeneration would be a way around that.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by Tribble » 2019-06-26 07:19pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-26 06:48pm
Tribble wrote:
2019-06-26 03:17pm
Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-06-26 02:03pm
Okay what do the people saying the Doctor 'is not that pacifist' and 'is right in his element' actually think the Doctor will do?

His usual MO is either talk someone to death or technobabble them to death and I'm not sure what good either will be on Thanos.
Apart from being able to travel to any point in space and time? The Doctor would probably give some advice and help them recover the Infinity Stones with the Tardis.

If this isn’t a fixed point in time the Doctor and Tardis would probably be able to pull off a win with the only casualty being whoever was sacrificed for the Soul Stone (assuming the Doctor cannot technobabble a way out). With the Tardis they wouldn’t have to wait 5 years and could do each mission together as a full team. They could travel in space and time as many times as needed to get the job done. And even if past Thanos becomes aware of what’s going on he’s unlikely to be able to do anything about it let alone steal the Tardis and put it to use. Without Thanos getting access to Pym particles and time travel the final battle wouldn’t happen, which is exactly what the Doctor would prefer. No need for a direct confrontation at all.

If it is a fixed point, then the Doctor may offer some advice, but that’s about it. He’d already know the outcome and that it’s the best one available in the circumstances.
I wonder if the Doctor would be willing to make the sacrifice for the Soul Stone (probably it depends on the Doctor, and who the other options were- I could see some versions manipulating a villain who wanted to atone into taking the jump if the option presented itself, but sacrificing themself rather than letting a Companion do it). Also, if the Soul Stone sacrifice would perma-kill the Doctor (insofar as someone can be perma-killed in a setting with casual time alteration), or whether regeneration would be a way around that.
Willing, sure. Problem with that though is the “greatest one you love” requirement for the Soul Stone; no one in the Avengers would know the Doctor well enough for a sacrifice to work.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-26 07:25pm

Tribble wrote:
2019-06-26 07:19pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-26 06:48pm
Tribble wrote:
2019-06-26 03:17pm


Apart from being able to travel to any point in space and time? The Doctor would probably give some advice and help them recover the Infinity Stones with the Tardis.

If this isn’t a fixed point in time the Doctor and Tardis would probably be able to pull off a win with the only casualty being whoever was sacrificed for the Soul Stone (assuming the Doctor cannot technobabble a way out). With the Tardis they wouldn’t have to wait 5 years and could do each mission together as a full team. They could travel in space and time as many times as needed to get the job done. And even if past Thanos becomes aware of what’s going on he’s unlikely to be able to do anything about it let alone steal the Tardis and put it to use. Without Thanos getting access to Pym particles and time travel the final battle wouldn’t happen, which is exactly what the Doctor would prefer. No need for a direct confrontation at all.

If it is a fixed point, then the Doctor may offer some advice, but that’s about it. He’d already know the outcome and that it’s the best one available in the circumstances.
I wonder if the Doctor would be willing to make the sacrifice for the Soul Stone (probably it depends on the Doctor, and who the other options were- I could see some versions manipulating a villain who wanted to atone into taking the jump if the option presented itself, but sacrificing themself rather than letting a Companion do it). Also, if the Soul Stone sacrifice would perma-kill the Doctor (insofar as someone can be perma-killed in a setting with casual time alteration), or whether regeneration would be a way around that.
Willing, sure. Problem with that though is the “greatest one you love” requirement for the Soul Stone; no one in the Avengers would know the Doctor well enough for a sacrifice to work.
Hmm, I wonder if Clint ever told his wife about how Natasha died, and what she felt about a cosmic power recognizing Natasha as her husband's greatest love?

Then again, I also wonder how a self-sacrifice can count, since if you have to sacrifice your greatest love... well, Natasha certainly isn't a narcissist, whatever else may be said about her.

But if it worked then, it ought to work for the Doctor if a companion is present. They're generally the Doctor's strongest emotional attachments.

Or the War Doctor could sacrifice Gallifrey in exchange for the Stone.

Or... oh, God. He's going to have to self-destruct the TARDIS in exchange for the Stone, isn't he?
Last edited by The Romulan Republic on 2019-06-26 07:27pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by Gandalf » 2019-06-26 07:26pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-26 07:25pm
Hmm, I wonder if Clint ever told his wife about how Natasha died, and what she felt about a cosmic power recognizing Natasha as her husband's greatest love?
Damn, that's brilliant.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-26 07:36pm

For that matter, what about his children? Does he love Natasha more than them? Or does it really have to be the one you most love, or just the one you most love present? If you loved an inanimate object more than any person, could you sacrifice it? Etc.

There is so much shit in Endgame that works less and less the more you think about it. Its a fan service-filled movie that is fun to watch if you don't think about it, but folds quickly under any real scrutiny.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by Solauren » 2019-06-26 10:23pm

I always thought it was more of a sacrifice of someone you cared about. Red Skull never said anything about 'Greatest love' or anything like that. Just a loved one.

That's why Gamora laughed at him. She didn't think he was capable of loving ANYONE.

Clint and Natasha obviously cared about each other. A few times, I wondered if Natasha and Clint hadn't been an item before Clint meet his wife.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by Crazedwraith » 2019-06-27 02:58am

Solauren wrote:
2019-06-26 10:23pm
I always thought it was more of a sacrifice of someone you cared about. Red Skull never said anything about 'Greatest love' or anything like that. Just a loved one.
This, despite it popping up all the place, RS just says 'give up that which you love. A soul for a soul'.

No greatest or most about it. Though it is singular so it may lend itself that way to that interpretation.

Personally I prefer Hawkeye/BW as mutual purely platonic loves, it is a nice contrast to Thanos' twisted partially one-sided familial love for Gamora in IW.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-27 04:06am

Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-06-26 02:03pm
Okay what do the people saying the Doctor 'is not that pacifist' and 'is right in his element' actually think the Doctor will do?

His usual MO is either talk someone to death or technobabble them to death and I'm not sure what good either will be on Thanos.
Depends somewhat on the Doctor, but options include...

-Go back in time and nab the Stones before Thanos does.

-Go back in time and change Thanos's whole timeline, trying to reform him into a hero.

-Use the TARDIS tractor beam to tow Thanos's ship away from Earth.

-Use technobable to disable the Gauntlet.

-Depending on era, call in Time Lord backup, and have Thanos erased from reality.

-Sneak aboard his ship and sabotage its systems, causing it to blow up.

-Free Nebula so Thanos has no leverage over Gamora.

-War Doctor: Use the Moment to time lock Thanos out of existence.

-As someone previously mentioned, lure him into the TARDIS/materialize the TARDIS around him, potentially nullifying the Gauntlet (if we go with the TARDIS as its own universe with its own rules), then let the Avengers go to town (although this is risky as it endangers the TARDIS).

Options 2, 6, and perhaps 7 strike me as the ones that are most in-character for him to attempt.

Edit: He could also use the TARDIS's transportation capabilities to bring the scattered Avengers quickly together.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by mr friendly guy » 2019-06-27 09:27am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-27 04:06am

-As someone previously mentioned, lure him into the TARDIS/materialize the TARDIS around him, potentially nullifying the Gauntlet (if we go with the TARDIS as its own universe with its own rules), then let the Avengers go to town (although this is risky as it endangers the TARDIS).
The TARDIS has lots of rooms. Even if it just materialises in the control room, and its damage, its still ok. The TARDIS has a secondary control room, which in classic who looked nicer than the classic white room. :D Not that it won't take the Doctor long to repair the primary control room as he does it after regeneration damages it.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by Tribble » 2019-06-27 11:21am

I wonder how the Ancient One and Asgardians would view the Doctor; I imagine that would make for some interesting conversations.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by Elheru Aran » 2019-06-27 11:59am

Tribble wrote:
2019-06-27 11:21am
I wonder how the Ancient One and Asgardians would view the Doctor; I imagine that would make for some interesting conversations.
Asgardians would probably just find the room in the TARDIS that has an infinite supply of alcohol and start a party.

The Ancient One would probably freak out a little bit, but decide that as long as the Doctor keeps mostly to his own universe and doesn't object to her using the Eye of Agametto to set any timey-wimey shenanigans right, she'll exist in detente with him. Or her, as the case may be.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-27 12:03pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
2019-06-27 11:59am
Tribble wrote:
2019-06-27 11:21am
I wonder how the Ancient One and Asgardians would view the Doctor; I imagine that would make for some interesting conversations.
Asgardians would probably just find the room in the TARDIS that has an infinite supply of alcohol and start a party.

The Ancient One would probably freak out a little bit, but decide that as long as the Doctor keeps mostly to his own universe and doesn't object to her using the Eye of Agametto to set any timey-wimey shenanigans right, she'll exist in detente with him. Or her, as the case may be.
I can see the Doctor (particularly some of the more recent ones) getting on very well with Asgard. It would probably be a place he stops in on from time to time, and brings his newest companion along when he wants to impress them. Everything from drunken partying to adventures in a magical kingdom to conversations with the All-Father.

The Ancient One would probably take a dim view of his interdimensional shenanigans and timeline meddling, and he would probably reciprocate regarding her meddling with the dark dimension. But since she would likely have looked forward into the future and seen that he has an important role to play, she likely wouldn't try to take him out. Their relationship would likely be mutually tense and suspicious, but not overtly hostile.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-09 10:23pm

Something occurred to me while discussing (over in the general Endgame release thread) whether Tony committed genocide by destroying Thanos's forces with the Snap.

While I would argue that unless he exterminated the entire species, not just combatants (do Chitauri and such even have non-combatants?), its not genocide, and that Thanos's forces are absolutely legitimate military targets because... obviously, there is a possible parallel to the Doctor's actions in the Time War. Especially if there really are no non-combatants in the races Thanos used for his canon fodder (like the Daleks). It would be interesting to see Tony have to live with that decision like the Doctor did, especially if the film didn't give him an easy way to both preserve his timeline as he knew it (and his family) and bring everybody back. And how each version of the Doctor would react to Tony snapping potentially entire species out of existence to save the universe (fundamentally, the same choice the War Doctor made regarding Gallifrey).
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by LadyTevar » 2019-07-11 11:54pm

Solauren wrote:
2019-06-26 10:23pm
I always thought it was more of a sacrifice of someone you cared about. Red Skull never said anything about 'Greatest love' or anything like that. Just a loved one.

That's why Gamora laughed at him. She didn't think he was capable of loving ANYONE.

Clint and Natasha obviously cared about each other. A few times, I wondered if Natasha and Clint hadn't been an item before Clint meet his wife.
Clint and Natasha were a Band of Brothers. They were Buddy-Cops, partners for decades who'd do anything for the other. Nothing sexual, just respect, trust, and a friendship born of shared experiences.
People just forget there's more than one kind of love.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-11 11:59pm

LadyTevar wrote:
2019-07-11 11:54pm
Solauren wrote:
2019-06-26 10:23pm
I always thought it was more of a sacrifice of someone you cared about. Red Skull never said anything about 'Greatest love' or anything like that. Just a loved one.

That's why Gamora laughed at him. She didn't think he was capable of loving ANYONE.

Clint and Natasha obviously cared about each other. A few times, I wondered if Natasha and Clint hadn't been an item before Clint meet his wife.
Clint and Natasha were a Band of Brothers. They were Buddy-Cops, partners for decades who'd do anything for the other. Nothing sexual, just respect, trust, and a friendship born of shared experiences.
People just forget there's more than one kind of love.
Yeah, I think that its probably stronger character-wise for their relationship to be non-sexual- at least its less cliche.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by LadyTevar » 2019-07-12 12:07am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-11 11:59pm
Yeah, I think that its probably stronger character-wise for their relationship to be non-sexual- at least its less cliche.
I got it from their body-language, by the way they teased each other. You don't get that relaxed around anyone that you don't know and trust like a brother.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by Gandalf » 2019-07-12 09:05am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-11 11:59pm
LadyTevar wrote:
2019-07-11 11:54pm
Clint and Natasha were a Band of Brothers. They were Buddy-Cops, partners for decades who'd do anything for the other. Nothing sexual, just respect, trust, and a friendship born of shared experiences.
People just forget there's more than one kind of love.
Yeah, I think that its probably stronger character-wise for their relationship to be non-sexual- at least its less cliche.
That might have been something to explore in Age of Ultron, as opposed to the shitshow that we got.
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Re: The Doctor in Infinity War/Endgame.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-12 10:11pm

Gandalf wrote:
2019-07-12 09:05am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-11 11:59pm
LadyTevar wrote:
2019-07-11 11:54pm
Clint and Natasha were a Band of Brothers. They were Buddy-Cops, partners for decades who'd do anything for the other. Nothing sexual, just respect, trust, and a friendship born of shared experiences.
People just forget there's more than one kind of love.
Yeah, I think that its probably stronger character-wise for their relationship to be non-sexual- at least its less cliche.
That might have been something to explore in Age of Ultron, as opposed to the shitshow that we got.
I do think that AoU actually added substantially to both Clint and Natasha's characterizations. It showed that Clint was the one Avenger who had his shit together enough to have a functional, healthy life outside of Avenging, and it showed that Natasha was a part of that family. Whatever else, I think Whedon did both characters a lot of good there.
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"-The Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson, 1776.

A promise never lived up to, but always to be aspired to.

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