Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-03 01:59pm

Compared to the powers of the other Stones- yeah. Its not that impressive.

As far as what I'd prefer- well, if I'd written the movie prior to having seen Endgame, I'd have probably not done a time travel plot. I'd have spent more time on the aftermath of the Snap, on Tony and Nebula's journey back to Earth, seeing the whole universe in chaos and despair. Focus on the aftermath. Only the last half/third of the film would have been going for the Stones, probably, and I'd have had it be a more personal fight, rather than the huge final battle we got- just the Avengers/Guardians plus Captain Marvel vs Thanos. Marvel would probably be the one to finally take out Thanos, and then either Cap or Tony would have probably sacrificed themselves to use the Gauntlet, and the Anti-Snap would have brought back Gamora and possibly Loki as well. Might have had Nebula be the one to use the Gauntlet, though, as a nod to the comics (fifty-fifty on whether she'd survive using it). I don't know if it would have been a better movie, but it would have been a simpler, neater one.

If I were rewriting it now, but with the benefit of hindsight- I'd probably keep the time travel plot, because there's stuff I genuinely like (seeing the Ancient One again, the potential for a Cap/Red Skull encounter, the two Nebulas, Cap's "Hail Hydra", even the Peggy marriage if its thought out better). But I'd have simplified it, made it a closed loop, no alternate timelines. I'd have spent more time discussing the moral implications of trying to alter the past or create alternate timelines, with the heroes trying to avoid fucking with various realities (leading to a closed loop time travel plot).

Mostly, if they're going to do time travel (or any other concept), I just want it to make sense, and be done smartly, with due thought for the consequences and implications.
Tribble wrote:
2019-07-03 01:34pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:Hmm, I wonder if it could be used to communicate with the spirits of the dead, or act as a portal to the afterlife?
Even assuming there is an afterlife in the MCU, I don’t think so? When he sees Gamora it doesn’t appear to be her, but rather some child-like representation. Maybe it’s true power is to help you do some “soul searching?”
Well, a physical representation of someone's soul wouldn't necessarily appear the same as their physical body at the time that they died, would it?
Now that I think of it, IIRC Thanos used the Soul Stone to dispel the multiple Stranges during their battle and knocked Strange out of his body, though Strange was able to put himself back in. Not exactly impressive feats given that the Reality Stone ought to be able to dissolve the copies as well and the Ancient One did the exact same thing to Bruce Banner.
Kinda sad that the Captain Planet’s Power of Heart is starting to look good in comparison :P[/quote]

It really is the shittiest Stone, isn't it?
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2019-07-03 02:27pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-03 01:59pm
Compared to the powers of the other Stones- yeah. Its not that impressive.
Again, power equalling the most powerful magical user in existence. :?: I am curious what the comic book powers of the stone is though. Other than blinging up Adam Warlock's head.


Mostly, if they're going to do time travel (or any other concept), I just want it to make sense, and be done smartly, with due thought for the consequences and implications.
Like the movie already did you mean.

eta: To whit, I mean they planned small precise incursions planned to the best of their ability and went out of their way to go back and unfuck anytime lines they fucked with. It's hard to claim they didn't care when they clearly did.

The two "hiccups" were unintentional and pretty difficult to predict. (Knowing what two Nebulas at once would do is pretty hard to predict)

The only real apparent break of their rules, as I said before was Cap appearing in the present.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Tribble » 2019-07-03 02:36pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-07-03 02:27pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-03 01:59pm
Compared to the powers of the other Stones- yeah. Its not that impressive.
Again, power equalling the most powerful magical user in existence. :?: I am curious what the comic book powers of the stone is though. Other than blinging up Adam Warlock's head.
Considering what all the other Infinity Stones can instantly do, and what powers they can permanently grant? Especially since theoretically anyone could learn that particular skill given enough time and training? Ya, pretty lame.

I wouldn’t have done the Snap at all to be honest. Going into Infinity War I thought that Thanos would get all the Stones except the Soul Stone, and then the race would be on for the final Stone in Endgame (with the Soul Stone turning out to be the most critical one). Maybe they keep Thanos from using the gauntlet (though not without casualties, and in the end they use the snap to destroy the Stones rather than risk them being used.
Last edited by Tribble on 2019-07-03 02:45pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-03 02:42pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-07-03 02:27pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-03 01:59pm
Compared to the powers of the other Stones- yeah. Its not that impressive.
Again, power equalling the most powerful magical user in existence. :?: I am curious what the comic book powers of the stone is though. Other than blinging up Adam Warlock's head.

The Soul Stone alone hardly equals all of Strange's abilities. It may allow one to mimic one specific power of Strange's.
Mostly, if they're going to do time travel (or any other concept), I just want it to make sense, and be done smartly, with due thought for the consequences and implications.
Like the movie already did you mean.
Okay, let's break this down.
eta: To whit, I mean they planned small precise incursions planned to the best of their ability and went out of their way to go back and unfuck anytime lines they fucked with. It's hard to claim they didn't care when they clearly did.
"small" incursions like the timeline where Loki is running around free with a Tesseract after the Battle of New York? :? Or the timeline with no Thanos because he came over to the original timeline and got dusted? Sure, they may not have altered their own timeline, but what about the new timelines their antics created? They created entire parallel realities as side effects of fixing their own, made substantial changes to those realities with unpredictable consequences, and then left them to their own devices with nary a second thought. Unless we assume that Cap somehow fixed everything off-screen, but that's a pretty big hand wave if you ask me.
The two "hiccups" were unintentional and pretty difficult to predict. (Knowing what two Nebulas at once would do is pretty hard to predict)
Wasn't even thinking of that, to be honest. I don't see having two Nebulas as hugely significant next to everything else messed up about this.
The only real apparent break of their rules, as I said before was Cap appearing in the present.
That's a pretty big break.

Also, did Cap just live the quiet life with Peggy to keep that timeline from going "off-course"? If so, then what does it say about Cap that he let all those people die to preserve the history he knew, while altering it just enough to get his happy ending?

Also, if as the Ancient One says the Stones are a necessary part of reality, what happens to the original timeline where they no longer exist?

This movie is full of holes, and that's a fact. Its fun fan service if you don't think, but it can't take any serious scrutiny without the plot and characterizations collapsing.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2019-07-03 02:53pm

Nope sorry. Not doing the line by line thing. Suffice to say I disagree entirely and that certainly isn't 'a fact', it is your opinion.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-03 03:09pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-07-03 02:53pm
Nope sorry. Not doing the line by line thing. Suffice to say I disagree entirely and that certainly isn't 'a fact', it is your opinion.
So you're either too lazy or too hostile to actually address any of the examples I pointed out of the film's plot being flawed, and just want us to accept "You're wrong because I say so"?

Sorry, doesn't work that way. You can format your response however you like, but if you're not even going to bother with one, then I'll take that as a concession.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2019-07-03 03:16pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-03 03:09pm
Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-07-03 02:53pm
Nope sorry. Not doing the line by line thing. Suffice to say I disagree entirely and that certainly isn't 'a fact', it is your opinion.
So you're either too lazy or too hostile to actually address any of the examples I pointed out of the film's plot being flawed, and just want us to accept "You're wrong because I say so"?

Sorry, doesn't work that way. You can format your response however you like, but if you're not even going to bother with one, then I'll take that as a concession.
I tried to write you one. Your usual bullshit infuriated me to point of inability so take that as a concession if you will.

eta: To add, I apologise for engaging then quitting, that's on me.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Civil War Man » 2019-07-03 03:47pm

Tribble wrote:
2019-07-03 12:37pm
On the other hand, one would think “Soul for a Soul” could mean that the initial sacrifice could be swapped.

Apart from demanding sacrifices and being needed for the gauntlet, does the Soul Stone actually do anything in the MCU?
If you could just return the stone for the soul equivalent of a cash refund when you are done with it, it is not a sacrifice. It's just putting up a soul as collateral. Sacrificing someone you care about, knowing you will never get them back, is a lesson that the power of the Soul Stone is not to be used lightly.

As for powers, Soul and Mind are the two directly life-related stones, so presumably someone with the Soul Stone could use it to, for example, create life from nothingness or instantly kill someone.

Some speculation as to what each stone contributed to the Snap:
Soul and Mind combine to allow the Snap to seek out sentient life (since the Snap didn't appear to affect plants) and kill it.
Reality turns the dead into dust so they don't leave corpses lying around.
Space and Time combine to allow the Snap to affect the entire known universe simultaneously, instead of forcing Thanos to travel to specific people and snap them individually.
Power provides raw power for the other Stones to harness to better fulfill their roles.

I also have a theory, a modification of an earlier incorrect theory I had WRT to Black Panther, that vibranium was created by the Soul Stone, given that the Heart Shaped Herb, which was established in the movie as a plant mutated by radiation from the vibranium meteorite, allowed T'Challa and Killmonger to enter a kind of spirit realm and speak with their dead fathers. If that were the case, allowing communication with the dead could also be included among the possible powers of the Soul Stone.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-03 02:42pm
"small" incursions like the timeline where Loki is running around free with a Tesseract after the Battle of New York? :? Or the timeline with no Thanos because he came over to the original timeline and got dusted? Sure, they may not have altered their own timeline, but what about the new timelines their antics created? They created entire parallel realities as side effects of fixing their own, made substantial changes to those realities with unpredictable consequences, and then left them to their own devices with nary a second thought. Unless we assume that Cap somehow fixed everything off-screen, but that's a pretty big hand wave if you ask me.
I have no answer regarding the missing Thanos timeline, but the Loki with the Tesseract timeline is pretty easily fixed. Captain America goes back to New York, puts the Mind and Time stones back where they need to be, and then, you know, stops Loki from being able to run off with the Tesseract in the first place. The whole point was that the alternate timelines are only created if you don't return stuff to the same point where you took them.
Also, did Cap just live the quiet life with Peggy to keep that timeline from going "off-course"? If so, then what does it say about Cap that he let all those people die to preserve the history he knew, while altering it just enough to get his happy ending?
Here are the things his ending told me:
1. He is a person that has basically only known war and the next fight all his life. Age of Ultron specifically calls this out with both his Scarlet Witch-induced hallucination, as well as Ultron specifically taunting him about the perfect soldier who would be lost without a war. He retires to a quiet life with Peggy because he's tired of the life he had.
2. He joked about how Tony always told him to "get a life" and so he decided to see what the fuss was. If he continued to involve himself, he would still be unable to let go of war.
3. He knows that, for all of the pain that results, the history he knew turns out alright in the end, because it's already happened. If he starts interfering and changing things, that history might not turn out okay. Suppose he tries to save Bucky, and fails, so now he's in a world where he's responsible for his best friend's death instead of the one where he is eventually saved? Suppose he saves Howard and Maria Stark, and that new path results in Tony never maturing beyond his initial self-absorbed self or becoming Iron Man?
Also, if as the Ancient One says the Stones are a necessary part of reality, what happens to the original timeline where they no longer exist?
I think this has been gone over before, but she does not say that they are a necessary part of reality. She says that it is necessary to keep them where they are supposed to be. Taking away the Time Stone without returning it, for instance, results in Doctor Strange not having it when Dormammu is summoned, which means Dormammu wins and the Earth is destroyed.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-03 04:24pm

Civil War Man wrote:
2019-07-03 03:47pm
Tribble wrote:
2019-07-03 12:37pm
On the other hand, one would think “Soul for a Soul” could mean that the initial sacrifice could be swapped.

Apart from demanding sacrifices and being needed for the gauntlet, does the Soul Stone actually do anything in the MCU?
If you could just return the stone for the soul equivalent of a cash refund when you are done with it, it is not a sacrifice. It's just putting up a soul as collateral. Sacrificing someone you care about, knowing you will never get them back, is a lesson that the power of the Soul Stone is not to be used lightly.
Yeah, I suppose that makes sense. I don't like the premise, I don't like the Fridging, but if you're going to do that, don't make it cheap.
As for powers, Soul and Mind are the two directly life-related stones, so presumably someone with the Soul Stone could use it to, for example, create life from nothingness or instantly kill someone.
The former would be far more impressive. The latter, any of the Stones can be used to accomplish in various ways.
Some speculation as to what each stone contributed to the Snap:
Soul and Mind combine to allow the Snap to seek out sentient life (since the Snap didn't appear to affect plants) and kill it.
Reality turns the dead into dust so they don't leave corpses lying around.
Space and Time combine to allow the Snap to affect the entire known universe simultaneously, instead of forcing Thanos to travel to specific people and snap them individually.
Power provides raw power for the other Stones to harness to better fulfill their roles.
That makes sense.

IIRC, I believe there were some behind the scenes statements to the effect that Soul was needed to pull it off on a universal scale? But I'm not sure.
I also have a theory, a modification of an earlier incorrect theory I had WRT to Black Panther, that vibranium was created by the Soul Stone, given that the Heart Shaped Herb, which was established in the movie as a plant mutated by radiation from the vibranium meteorite, allowed T'Challa and Killmonger to enter a kind of spirit realm and speak with their dead fathers. If that were the case, allowing communication with the dead could also be included among the possible powers of the Soul Stone.
That's an interesting idea. I can see that, yeah.
I have no answer regarding the missing Thanos timeline, but the Loki with the Tesseract timeline is pretty easily fixed. Captain America goes back to New York, puts the Mind and Time stones back where they need to be, and then, you know, stops Loki from being able to run off with the Tesseract in the first place. The whole point was that the alternate timelines are only created if you don't return stuff to the same point where you took them.
I guess that depends on whether Loki stuck around, and what you figure Cap's chances are of cleanly taking down Loki one-on-one (he lost their one-on-one fight in Avengers, and was saved by Iron Man).
Here are the things his ending told me:
1. He is a person that has basically only known war and the next fight all his life. Age of Ultron specifically calls this out with both his Scarlet Witch-induced hallucination, as well as Ultron specifically taunting him about the perfect soldier who would be lost without a war. He retires to a quiet life with Peggy because he's tired of the life he had.
2. He joked about how Tony always told him to "get a life" and so he decided to see what the fuss was. If he continued to involve himself, he would still be unable to let go of war.
3. He knows that, for all of the pain that results, the history he knew turns out alright in the end, because it's already happened. If he starts interfering and changing things, that history might not turn out okay. Suppose he tries to save Bucky, and fails, so now he's in a world where he's responsible for his best friend's death instead of the one where he is eventually saved? Suppose he saves Howard and Maria Stark, and that new path results in Tony never maturing beyond his initial self-absorbed self or becoming Iron Man?
The first two points I get completely, and I have no problem with the idea of Cap settling down to a more peaceful life. Man's earned it, a hundred times over.

My problem is with him going back and trying to rewrite the past, but just a very small bit of it that affects him personally. Via the Butterfly Effect, him being with Peggy all those years ought to shake up the entire timeline substantially, unless we posit some sort of unestablished force of fate keeping everything else conveniently on-track. So there are consequences, but we're supposed to imagine that Captain "We don't trade lives" America just sits back and lets it all happen so he can enjoy his happy ending?

Yes, there are good reasons for him not to interfere (though I don't know if it would be in-character for him to accept that if it meant standing by and watching people die). But by those same reasons, he shouldn't have gone back at all. Unless he didn't really change anything, and he was really married to Peggy in the past all along, but that would contradict how time travel is shown working elsewhere, which is that its not a loop, but creating alternate timelines where things are different based on your going back.

Again, its a really nice, sweet, lovely piece of fan service, which gets more and more problematic the more you think about it.

Moreover, those little changes snowballing into bigger and bigger ones should be the case for every alternate timeline they created by going back to get the Stones, and Cap going back again at the end arguably shouldn't have "fixed" anything, but just created even more alternate timelines branching off from the previous alternate timelines, because the whole point of the alternate timelines is that you aren't changing the original reality by going back, but creating a new alternate one.
I think this has been gone over before, but she does not say that they are a necessary part of reality. She says that it is necessary to keep them where they are supposed to be. Taking away the Time Stone without returning it, for instance, results in Doctor Strange not having it when Dormammu is summoned, which means Dormammu wins and the Earth is destroyed.
Okay, but leaving the Ancient One's exact wording aside, its pretty clear that the Stones being present is important. So there should be major consequences to them no longer existing in the main timeline.

Personally, though, I tend to see them as being more primal cosmic forces, something intrinsic to the universe, though I acknowledge that that's personal interpretation, not something I can definitively prove as correct.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2019-07-03 05:55pm



Parody element aside - This emphasises the problem with the scenario of Steve Rodgers doing what he did.

Even if Steve decided to not spoil the future - It is impossible with the position he is in.

A) Carter is literally involved in a world to the point that her life can and will be in danger. I find it completely unlikely any human being would or could remain silent about the future if it would cause harm to the person they love even if it is through omission.

B) Carter is a spy, operating in a spy world. I doubt Rodgers would be able to keep things from her even if he wanted to and I do not expect she would accept the situation. Doing so would be a relationship killer, especially if he withholds shit about SHIELD / HYDRA. This would turn Rodgers into a self-absorbed manipulative bastard and Carter an accessory if she went along with it.

C) In tandem with B... Someone like Carter is going to be watched and Steve Rodgers hanging out with her is going to get noticed.

D) No way exists for Steve to meet Carter without creating a new timeline. The past we have seen in the MCU via Carter, Agents of Shield and the movies have made it impossible for Carter to have a happy ending with Rodgers within the same universe timeline.
The only way that works is if it is a loop - Which is completely blown out of the water.
Captain America jumps to other timelines to replace the tones then somehow jumps back to the original except in the past to meet Carter... ENDGAME specifically said that was not possible.

The director for Endgame has admitted this.
Captain America went to another universe timeline and had his happy ending.
That timeline is going to be different from the MCU we are aware of. How much is entirely dependent on writers fiat but I fully expect Steve Rodgers is going to be dragged into gutting out HYDRA from SHIELD. That should result in a timeline that is drastically different.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-03 06:49pm

In a nutshell, yes.

If they want to go there, okay- but then they need to acknowledge that the heroes are essentially playing God, creating new realities to get what they want. And then they need to acknowledge that the heroes are responsible for those realities and everything that happens in them going forward, more than just "and then Cap somehow impossibly fixed it all off-screen, despite that arguably contradicting how time travel was previously explained to work".

Edit: Also, I think I have a new favorite Marvel fan video. :D
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Solauren » 2019-07-03 06:57pm

Hmmmm..

Okay, Steve goes and puts the Tesseract back where Tony and him got it from. 1970. 25 years after the end of World War 2, and 20+ years after 'Agent Carter'. So, the timeline isn't interfered with so far.

Now, if Steve explained to her, and possibly Howard Stark, that he's from the future. It wouldn't be hard for Howard to figure out the dangers of time travel. In other words, that Steve revealing anything could fuck up the timeline, and prevent him from coming back. Creating a Paradox. That includes hiding his existence from Peggy's niece.

It would take an absolute Iron Will on the part of all involved, but it could be done.

It being done (no changes to the timeline) would also explain how Steve was 'back' at the end of the movie. He stayed hidden, and out of sight.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-03 07:04pm

If you assume no unintended slip-ups, no ripple effects from minor changes caused by Steve's presence, ignore the creators saying its an alternate timeline, and are okay with the idea of Captain America sitting on the sidelines and coldly letting millions of people die who could have been saved to preserve the timeline, while he and Peggy alone get their happy ending.

But my point is not "Steve going back in time couldn't work", hell, I like the Cap/Peggy reunion scene by itself and would like to figure out a way to make that scene work, its just that there are implications to him doing so that were not well thought-out in the execution of the film.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Tribble » 2019-07-03 10:10pm

Civil War Man wrote:
If you could just return the stone for the soul equivalent of a cash refund when you are done with it, it is not a sacrifice. It's just putting up a soul as collateral. Sacrificing someone you care about, knowing you will never get them back, is a lesson that the power of the Soul Stone is not to be used lightly.
None of the Stones should be used lightly, though only the Soul Stone demanded a sacrifice for... reasons?
Civil War Man wrote: As for powers, Soul and Mind are the two directly life-related stones, so presumably someone with the Soul Stone could use it to, for example, create life from nothingness or instantly kill someone.
Neither of which were demonstrated, which is why I have a problem with its depiction in the film. Plus if it could kill someone instantly, I'm sure Thanos would have used it during his battles that way. Alas it's just... there. Mostly because it exists in the comics.

Civil War Man wrote:Some speculation as to what each stone contributed to the Snap:
Soul and Mind combine to allow the Snap to seek out sentient life (since the Snap didn't appear to affect plants) and kill it.
Reality turns the dead into dust so they don't leave corpses lying around.
Space and Time combine to allow the Snap to affect the entire known universe simultaneously, instead of forcing Thanos to travel to specific people and snap them individually.
Power provides raw power for the other Stones to harness to better fulfill their roles
.

Fair enough, though one would think the Mind Stone would be sufficient on its own in seeking out sentient life without needing the Soul Stone, at least in the MCU.
Civil War Man wrote: I also have a theory, a modification of an earlier incorrect theory I had WRT to Black Panther, that vibranium was created by the Soul Stone, given that the Heart Shaped Herb, which was established in the movie as a plant mutated by radiation from the vibranium meteorite, allowed T'Challa and Killmonger to enter a kind of spirit realm and speak with their dead fathers. If that were the case, allowing communication with the dead could also be included among the possible powers of the Soul Stone.
It could be but we don't see it being used that way, which is what kinda ticks me off. Again, for the most part the Soul Stone is just there to force a sacrifice and fill out the gauntlet.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Civil War Man » 2019-07-04 03:15pm

I'm skipping over most of the arguments because it's a matter of personal taste at that point.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-03 04:24pm
Yeah, I suppose that makes sense. I don't like the premise, I don't like the Fridging, but if you're going to do that, don't make it cheap.
Widow's death was basically the only logical conclusion of her character arc. She felt she owed Hawkeye a debt, and needed to prove to herself that she had completely left her cold mercenary assassin life behind her. She did not want to live with the survivor's guilt of letting Hawkeye sacrifice himself for her, incurring a debt that could never be repaid, especially since the aftermath would also result in a permanent rift between her and Hawkeye's family (once they were restored). Her death was character development for her, not for Hawkeye, which makes it significantly different than Thanos's murder of Gamora.

Immediately labeling it fridging because a female character died is the opposite side of the sexism coin as fridging itself, since it reinforces the equally sexist tropes of men being disposable and women lacking agency and requiring protection.
The former would be far more impressive. The latter, any of the Stones can be used to accomplish in various ways.
The Reality Stone can presumably do a lot of things that the others can, on account of it being able to, you know, change reality. That doesn't make the other stones pointless.
I guess that depends on whether Loki stuck around, and what you figure Cap's chances are of cleanly taking down Loki one-on-one (he lost their one-on-one fight in Avengers, and was saved by Iron Man).
Yeah, how could Captain America possibly defeat Loki one-on-one since he wasn't able to do that in Avengers 1? He couldn't possibly win unless he managed to get his hands on something that gives him the powers of a Norse god.

Also, some of the rules for his mission to return everything are not the same as the one for the Time Heist. With Hank Pym back, they wouldn't have a hard limit on the Pym Particles available to them, so he doesn't just get one shot to get everything right. If Loki gets away during their fight, Cap rewinds and changes his strategy until he wins. If I were making a series of Captain America returning everything from the heist, I would probably even make that the focus of an entire episode.
Okay, but leaving the Ancient One's exact wording aside, its pretty clear that the Stones being present is important. So there should be major consequences to them no longer existing in the main timeline.

Personally, though, I tend to see them as being more primal cosmic forces, something intrinsic to the universe, though I acknowledge that that's personal interpretation, not something I can definitively prove as correct.
The Ancient One was also speaking from the limited viewpoint of being the keeper of the Time Stone and knowing that it needed to be in a specific place at a specific time. It doesn't need to be there because time ceases to exist if there is no Time Stone. It needs to be there because it needs to be there for Doctor Strange to use it against Dormammu at that point in history.

And there are consequences to there not being any Infinity Stones in the main timeline. That consequence is that there are no Infinity Stones. They were powerful enough on their own to make their absence consequential without assigning them additional value. If Dormammu decides to break his bargain and go after Earth again, for instance, it won't be as easy for Doctor Strange to stop him.
Tribble wrote:
2019-07-03 10:10pm
None of the Stones should be used lightly, though only the Soul Stone demanded a sacrifice for... reasons?
Presumably it demands a sacrifice because there's something about it that makes it even more dangerous than the others. If you want to be offended that the movies don't hold your hand and explain exactly how it's more dangerous, fine, but that's the logical conclusion of what we're presented with on-screen.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Coop D'etat » 2019-07-04 04:39pm

The Soul Stone have particularly potent security isn't something that needs to be explained. There are plenty of potential reasons, none of which have any bearing on the story in question. The story doesn't need to hold your hand and explain everything you see unless there is a glaring inconsistency.

Meanwhile, there isn't any real "plot" issue with the time travel either. The rules are reasonably clear, you can interact with the past by traveling there, but can't change your personal past. Its not even so much "time travel" as conventionally understood with causality issues, but more like travel to alternate timelines or dimensions where you are free to choose the point in time you are travelling too as well as the location. They even have the ability to return to these timelines again to put things close to the same to minimize the ripple effects of interacting with that timeline. What Steve did on this journey is an open question that I'm sure had some interesting elements that would make its own good stories, but wasn't relevant to this particular story so wasn't shown. All we know is that this method of time travel specifically precludes any chance of paradox by preventing going to your own personal timeline's past. Maybe Steve effected history a lot in the alternate universe he visited and took a shield from, maybe he lived a quiet life and left things be, it doesn't particularly matter to what happened in the film, all we know is he went, stayed a lifetime, came back to his own original timeline with a shield.

Similarly, we know they cared enough about the other timelines to try and put them back in shape and enlisted their most responsible team member to go do it. We don't really need to know the rest and them not telling us isn't a flaw in the plot, even if it can be fun to speculate.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Tribble » 2019-07-04 05:10pm

Civil War Man wrote: Presumably it demands a sacrifice because there's something about it that makes it even more dangerous than the others. If you want to be offended that the movies don't hold your hand and explain exactly how it's more dangerous, fine, but that's the logical conclusion of what we're presented with on-screen.
Tbh I don't think it's too much to ask for to see what made the Soul Stone so dangerous vs having to make presumptions about it. Not that hard to do given the MCU is above all a visual effects sci-fi/fantasy extravaganza! If you're going to build it up and make it so that it is the last stone to be seen, make it interesting and use it! All the other Stones had at least one movie which demonstrated some of the things they can do.

I agree with Chuck on SF Debris - I don't give credit to things that are explained outside of the movie... because they were not in the movie. The only confirmed abilities we see the Soul Stone has (apart from being part of the gauntlet) are that it can make you have visions/hallucinations of the dead (I don't think its ever explained what child-Gamora was) it can be used to knock your consciousness out of your body (which technically anyone with sufficient talent and training can learn)... and it demands a sacrifice every time someone wants to get it. Compared to the others... it just doesn't hold up IMO.

Narratively speaking sure I get it, I'm just disappointed.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Tribble » 2019-07-04 05:43pm

Actually I take that back - the Soul Stones’ real power is that it’s the MCU’s Ultimate Troll- it damn well knows that while it’s pretty worthless on its own, you’re forced to go get it if you want all of them for the gauntlet, and so it gets to be a total bitch about it. Hell, even the other Stones seem to know how much of a troll the Soul Stone is; after all the Space Stone shot Red Skull over just so that the Soul Stone could troll him by making him its guardian! And do you think it didn’t already know beforehand what Thanos was going to do, or that it would get to watch the two least necessary Avengers fight to the death over which one was more useless?

Ya on second thought I gotta admire it for being so epically troll-worthy :P
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-04 06:22pm

Tribble wrote:
2019-07-04 05:43pm
Actually I take that back - the Soul Stones’ real power is that it’s the MCU’s Ultimate Troll- it damn well knows that while it’s pretty worthless on its own, you’re forced to go get it if you want all of them for the gauntlet, and so it gets to be a total bitch about it. Hell, even the other Stones seem to know how much of a troll the Soul Stone is; after all the Space Stone shot Red Skull over just so that the Soul Stone could troll him by making him its guardian! And do you think it didn’t already know beforehand what Thanos was going to do, or that it would get to watch the two least necessary Avengers fight to the death over which one was more useless?

Ya on second thought I gotta admire it for being so epically troll-worthy :P
Its actual name is not the Soul Stone, its the AsShole Stone. :D

Maybe, by being the Soul Stone, its the only one (well, besides Mind, anyway) that has acquire sapience, and resents its existence, so its as much a dick to everyone as it can be.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by ray245 » 2019-07-04 07:26pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-03 07:04pm
But my point is not "Steve going back in time couldn't work", hell, I like the Cap/Peggy reunion scene by itself and would like to figure out a way to make that scene work, its just that there are implications to him doing so that were not well thought-out in the execution of the film.
If having a well-thought out scenario eliminates the possibility of Steve getting back with Peggy, I will take a logically inconsistent scene over a logical timeline anytime of the day.

Logic is overrated in story-telling at times.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-04 09:56pm

ray245 wrote:
2019-07-04 07:26pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-03 07:04pm
But my point is not "Steve going back in time couldn't work", hell, I like the Cap/Peggy reunion scene by itself and would like to figure out a way to make that scene work, its just that there are implications to him doing so that were not well thought-out in the execution of the film.
If having a well-thought out scenario eliminates the possibility of Steve getting back with Peggy, I will take a logically inconsistent scene over a logical timeline anytime of the day.

Logic is overrated in story-telling at times.
I'd rather put in the effort to try to make the fan service also make sense. I don't think you have to write a stupid story to write a fun story.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Coop D'etat » 2019-07-04 11:25pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-04 09:56pm
ray245 wrote:
2019-07-04 07:26pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-03 07:04pm
But my point is not "Steve going back in time couldn't work", hell, I like the Cap/Peggy reunion scene by itself and would like to figure out a way to make that scene work, its just that there are implications to him doing so that were not well thought-out in the execution of the film.
If having a well-thought out scenario eliminates the possibility of Steve getting back with Peggy, I will take a logically inconsistent scene over a logical timeline anytime of the day.

Logic is overrated in story-telling at times.
I'd rather put in the effort to try to make the fan service also make sense. I don't think you have to write a stupid story to write a fun story.
None of the stuff you're complaining about are marks of a stupid story though. It more seems like you assume they did something dumb off-screen for stuff not depicted which wasn't relevant to this films story.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-04 11:41pm

Coop D'etat wrote:
2019-07-04 11:25pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-04 09:56pm
ray245 wrote:
2019-07-04 07:26pm


If having a well-thought out scenario eliminates the possibility of Steve getting back with Peggy, I will take a logically inconsistent scene over a logical timeline anytime of the day.

Logic is overrated in story-telling at times.
I'd rather put in the effort to try to make the fan service also make sense. I don't think you have to write a stupid story to write a fun story.
None of the stuff you're complaining about are marks of a stupid story though. It more seems like you assume they did something dumb off-screen for stuff not depicted which wasn't relevant to this films story.
On the contrary, I hardly see how remaining consistent about the mechanics of the tech on which their plot is based, and addressing the ethical implications of their heroes' actions, is irrelevant to the film's story.

If you want a pure popcorn movie and don't care if the plot is questionable under scrutiny, then fine. But I think this movie could have been more.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Coop D'etat » 2019-07-05 12:33am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-04 11:41pm
Coop D'etat wrote:
2019-07-04 11:25pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-04 09:56pm


I'd rather put in the effort to try to make the fan service also make sense. I don't think you have to write a stupid story to write a fun story.
None of the stuff you're complaining about are marks of a stupid story though. It more seems like you assume they did something dumb off-screen for stuff not depicted which wasn't relevant to this films story.
On the contrary, I hardly see how remaining consistent about the mechanics of the tech on which their plot is based, and addressing the ethical implications of their heroes' actions, is irrelevant to the film's story.

If you want a pure popcorn movie and don't care if the plot is questionable under scrutiny, then fine. But I think this movie could have been more.
Nothing broke the tech. Its entirely consistent with what had been portrayed for Rogers to go to an alternate timeline then come back to the original bringing back and object (his shield), all he needed to do which was odd is come back without the pad, which shouldn't be an insurmountable problem.

Nothing broke the ethical implications. The heroes took huge risks to set right a mass murder, but appear to have been able to set things right with the alternate timelines once everything was done.

You're just assuming things about stuff that wasn't depicted to come to the conclusion things are broken when they're not necessarily so.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-05 12:47am

Coop D'etat wrote:
2019-07-05 12:33am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-04 11:41pm
Coop D'etat wrote:
2019-07-04 11:25pm


None of the stuff you're complaining about are marks of a stupid story though. It more seems like you assume they did something dumb off-screen for stuff not depicted which wasn't relevant to this films story.
On the contrary, I hardly see how remaining consistent about the mechanics of the tech on which their plot is based, and addressing the ethical implications of their heroes' actions, is irrelevant to the film's story.

If you want a pure popcorn movie and don't care if the plot is questionable under scrutiny, then fine. But I think this movie could have been more.
Nothing broke the tech. Its entirely consistent with what had been portrayed for Rogers to go to an alternate timeline then come back to the original bringing back and object (his shield), all he needed to do which was odd is come back without the pad, which shouldn't be an insurmountable problem.

Nothing broke the ethical implications. The heroes took huge risks to set right a mass murder, but appear to have been able to set things right with the alternate timelines once everything was done.

You're just assuming things about stuff that wasn't depicted to come to the conclusion things are broken when they're not necessarily so.
What does the film show? The film stated that time travel works not by altering your past (which would erase the reality you knew and create a paradox), but by creating alternate timelines. So far so good. As time travel plots go, its not the worst one, though not the most elegant one either.

However, it then follows from that that the heroes are creating multiple alternate realities in order to benefit their own. They make a point of being careful not to screw around in the past and mess things up, but then they quickly fail for the sake of laughs/fanservice, resulting in the no Thanos timeline, and the free Loki with the Tesseract timeline, and the Cap spent several decades married to Peggy timeline. Therefore, they bear some responsibility for what happens in those realities. This is handwaved in the film as "Cap went back and fixed things"- but how could he possibly fix all of that? And shouldn't we have seen at least some of it? And even if that wasn't the story they wanted to tell (let's be honest, Endgame needs a follow-up movie all its own on Cap's Adventures In Time And Space), are we just supposed to accept that Captain America, of all people, sat on his ass for forty years while the world fell apart, after altering it just enough that he and Peggy and nobody else got their happy ending? Is that what we want in a hero? Especially when its not his original timeline he would be altering, but a new one his actions created? Or if it isn't, if it really is his own past he went back to (and the alternative is that he never married his Peggy, but just hooked up with another Peggy who looked like her), then doesn't that contradict how time travel is previously stated to have worked? For that matter, doesn't him being able to go back and return the Stones to their original timeline(s) contradict the idea of time travel creating alternate universes? It should have been impossible for him to return the Stones to their timeline- instead, it should have just created even more branching alternate timelines? Shouldn't it?

Yeah, the film didn't explicitly discuss all of these implications, even though they are an inevitable result of its premise and events. That's the fucking problem. Now, if you want to just sit back and enjoy the fan service without thinking about it, that's fine. That's your perogative as a viewer and a fan. And hey, the film does have some legitimately great moments and concepts. But don't blame me because I point out that Endgame isn't some flawless gem (much as I wish it had been).
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