Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Vendetta » 2019-09-03 12:44pm

TheFeniX wrote:
2019-09-03 11:53am
I don't recall them ever saying "how do we deal with her huge fucking army and OH YEA DRAGONS!
Obviously they'd read the script and knew they were all going to politely go home.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Elfdart » 2019-09-04 01:55pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-08-13 11:57pm
Also, the Comic-Con panel, which several expected attendees dropped out of following an online campaign to heckle the cast and crew. And as much as I hate the show, I must say that that is potentially crossing a line, including a legal one, depending on exactly what sort of behaviour they were trying to instigate.

https://vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/0 ... rya-theory
Last month, when HBO first announced that some of the cast and crew of Game of Thrones would attend San Diego Comic-Con after a divisive final season, the network promised a stacked roster of talent, including creators David Benioff and D.B. Weiss—along with Jacob Anderson (Grey Worm), John Bradley (Samwell Tarly), Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (Jaime Lannister), Liam Cunningham (Davos Seaworth), Nathalie Emmanuel (Missandei), Iain Glen (Ser Jorah Mormont), Conleth Hill (Varys), Maisie Williams (Arya Stark), Isaac Hempstead Wright (Bran Stark), and executive producer and frequent director Miguel Sapochnik. But after an ugly online movement to heckle the panel started gaining steam, Weiss, Benioff, Emmanuel, Glen, and Sapochnik all dropped out—most citing scheduling conflicts.
I'm torn between empathy at them for wanting to avoid possible harassment and irritation at people who blame actors for writing decisions, and the feeling that frankly, these chicken shits should have had the guts to stand up in front of their audience and justify their choices (even if I know that nothing good would have come of them trying to do so).
I didn't know any artist's contract included signing up for an Auto-da-fé.
It is deeply disheartening to me to see how a number of the cast, as well as of course the show runners, have attempted to defend this farce by spewing yet more misogynistic attacks on Daenerys's character.
The only farce is seeing so many "fans" acting like the dopey housewives who think soap opera characters are real people.
Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, on the other hand, had a more sanguine attitude about the fandom’s relationship with the show’s ending. While he spoke out months ago against a very silly fan-generated petition that lobbied HBO to remake season eight, he also said that it was fine to dislike the show’s ending—just as long as the complaints about the show didn’t turn into personal attacks on its creators. Case in point: When the actor said that he thought Jaime’s death in the arms of his sister-lover, Cersei, was “perfect,” someone in the crowd shouted out “liar!” Coster-Waldau’s eyebrows shot up in response. The end of a show you love, he pointed out to the Hall H crowd, will always piss you off.
Wow.

Given that he previously got some negative press for trying to defend the scene where Jaime raped Cersei (saying that he didn't see it as rape), my sympathy is very limited.
Would Brienne have taken Jaime back if he had survived and Cersei didn’t? Coster-Waldau said no, Jaime had too much baggage.
Not sure how I feel about him presuming to speak for another actor's character, when he's not the writer or director, but I'm glad he credits Brienne with not being a total doormat.
First of all, it's not just Coster-Waldau but Lena Headey and the director Alex Graves who insist it wasn't rape.
Lena Headey wrote:“It’s that terrible thing as a women—talking about something as horrendous as rape and dismissing it, which I’m not. But we never discussed it as that,” Headey told EW on the Thrones set in Dubrovnik. “It was a woman in grief for her dead child, and the father of the child—who happens to be her brother—who never really acknowledged the children is standing with her. We’ve all experienced grief. There’s a moment of wanting to fill a void, and that is often very visceral, physical. That, for me, is where she was at. There was an emotional block, and [her brother] was just a bit of a drug for her.”
But what do they know, right?
While perhaps understandable under the circumstances, the fact that they refused audience questions speaks volumes about the response to the show's finale, and the inability of its creators to defend it.

Still, credit at least to those on the panel for having the guts to show up, unlike the most guilty parties, the show runners themselves.
Since when does an artist owe an explanation to anyone about their creative decisions? I didn't know an artist was expected to submit to cross-examination over the choices they made as an artist. A century ago, H.L. Mencken wrote that no puritan has ever written a novel worth reading, composed music worth listening to, or painted a picture worth looking at. Today, this applies a hundredfold to the "woke" mobs and movies/TV.
"One way we recognize a mass hysteria movement is that everyone who doesn’t believe is accused of being in on the plot. This has been going on virtually unrestrained in both political and media circles in recent weeks."

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Elfdart » 2019-09-04 01:58pm

Darth Yan wrote:
2019-08-31 01:39pm
Ralin wrote:
2019-08-31 10:00am
Has it occurred to you that if people read the aristocratic woman who was convinced that she was entitled to rule a country she'd never lived in, frequently bragged about how she was going to burn her enemies alive, created an army out of super-soldier slaves and added a bunch of titles to her name emphasizing that she was the Messiah as a feminist icon that might say more bad things about the feminists watching the show than the way she was written?
Pretty much. It’s like Aung San Syu Kai. People were shocked when she turned out to be a racist bitch who ignored the suffering of the rohiynga when if you looked at her background it wasn’t that shocking
We have a winner.
"One way we recognize a mass hysteria movement is that everyone who doesn’t believe is accused of being in on the plot. This has been going on virtually unrestrained in both political and media circles in recent weeks."

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Darth Yan » 2019-09-05 04:09pm

I notice people don't seem bothered because a lot of the people Dany killed were assholes. Thing is a cruel act is a cruel act regardless of who's on the receiving end. In Season 7 we see the Dragon's fire from the other side and it's horrifying.

Dany's always had a "my way or the high way and if you slight me in any way, regardless of your reasons I will kill you." (Doreah being locked in the vault to die even though her reasons were somewhat sympathetic). Even with some of the masters she crucified some of them tried to oppose the cruel traditions of the city and she still did't care.

People who act like this is a betrayal of the character simply fell for Dany's facade.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Ziggy Stardust » 2019-09-06 10:02am

I mean, I feel like it shouldn't be that difficult for everyone to be on the same page about this. People seem to be acting like their stances on this are not mutually compatible, but they are.

Yes, on the one hand, there was foreshadowing from the beginning of the show that Dany would turn into the Mad Queen. But it can ALSO be true that due to poor writing in the latter seasons the character development and plot points that arose out of this foreshadowing were inconsistent and sloppily applied, such that the denouement felt rushed and unearned. All of these things can be true. Foreshadowing is not character development, yes; but, similarly, lack of character development does not imply lack of foreshadowing. Just because the final twist wasn't written in a particularly believable manner doesn't mean that this twist wasn't part of the natural arc the story was following. Dany was ALWAYS going to be the Mad Queen, but the transition could have and should have been more seamlessly executed.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by TheFeniX » 2019-09-06 02:01pm

Darth Yan wrote:
2019-09-05 04:09pm
I notice people don't seem bothered because a lot of the people Dany killed were assholes. Thing is a cruel act is a cruel act regardless of who's on the receiving end. In Season 7 we see the Dragon's fire from the other side and it's horrifying.
Thing is, there's still some ambiguity there. There are very few characters in GoTs that haven't done vile shit. Tywin may have deserved it, but nothing changes the fact Tyorion murdered him on the toilet. Tyrion has also pulled some vile things in order to protect his family.

But, and this is just me here, I'm not speaking for anyone else:I don't really care about that. It's the poor writing that doesn't sell any of this.

Let's just say Danny wasn't killed by Jon and did claim dominion over the 7 (or whatever's left) kingdoms. She's able to do so because the writer's made tons of other major issues not matter. They are justifying an ending by fiat. She's talking about ruling with an Iron Fist. Ruling what? What even is Brann ruling over? What? If this were actually well written, keeping King's Landing from burning to the fucking ground would be a thing. That the Throne Room and Red Keep are even still standing is just eye-rolling.

I'm no structural engineer, but I assume the "basement" of a building NOT designed with modern tech (and even those that are) collapsing like that should have basically knocked the whole building down. And the sad part is, I've been accused of nitpicking here which makes me laugh. Because GoT fans and their whole "super-serious gritty political fantasy" basically ended the same way most Capeshit does: they do billions of dollars in damage to <major population center>, then the next movie they are just trading quips, until <major population center> gets trashed again...... Seriously, GoTs ended like every fucking Marvel/DC movie. Billions in damage, massive death toll, and they sit around a table making small talk at the end.

People wanted a Season 1 style ending for a series that had dropped that formula 2 seasons ago. Pretty funny.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Vendetta » 2019-09-08 04:11pm

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
2019-09-06 10:02am
I mean, I feel like it shouldn't be that difficult for everyone to be on the same page about this. People seem to be acting like their stances on this are not mutually compatible, but they are.

Yes, on the one hand, there was foreshadowing from the beginning of the show that Dany would turn into the Mad Queen. But it can ALSO be true that due to poor writing in the latter seasons the character development and plot points that arose out of this foreshadowing were inconsistent and sloppily applied, such that the denouement felt rushed and unearned. All of these things can be true. Foreshadowing is not character development, yes; but, similarly, lack of character development does not imply lack of foreshadowing. Just because the final twist wasn't written in a particularly believable manner doesn't mean that this twist wasn't part of the natural arc the story was following. Dany was ALWAYS going to be the Mad Queen, but the transition could have and should have been more seamlessly executed.
The point of saying that foreshadowing is not character development is to say that character development is the necessary bit.

Foreshadowing can make character development more satisfying by presaging the direction a character is going to take, but it can't replace it. It's icing without the cake.


There's also two ways to say that a character was "always" going to do something. The diagetic way where it's a consistent progression of steps towards that act, and the non-diagetic way where it was always the writers' plan.

Daenerys' acts are explained by the latter, but that's unsatisfying because good stories need the former as well.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by MKSheppard » 2019-09-12 06:57pm

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
2019-09-06 10:02am
Yes, on the one hand, there was foreshadowing from the beginning of the show that Dany would turn into the Mad Queen. But it can ALSO be true that due to poor writing in the latter seasons the character development and plot points that arose out of this foreshadowing were inconsistent and sloppily applied, such that the denouement felt rushed and unearned.
GOT basically used to be:

Plot Point A --------- huge wandering path through forests ----------> Plot Point B

For the last season it was:

Plot Point A ----------laserlike straight line ---------> Plot point B.
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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Elfdart » 2019-09-14 03:52am

MKSheppard wrote:
2019-09-12 06:57pm
GOT basically used to be:

Plot Point A --------- huge wandering path through forests ----------> Plot Point B

For the last season it was:

Plot Point A ----------laserlike straight line ---------> Plot point B.
I think that sums up the problems with the last few seasons rather well. In addition, not only did all these ham-handed shortcuts hurt the story, they also ditched what for me was the strongest part of the whole series: the secondary characters. The ones that got any screen time at all were almost all killed off in retarded fashion and the rest were just cast aside.
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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by MKSheppard » 2019-09-17 04:06pm

Elfdart wrote:
2019-09-14 03:52am
In addition, not only did all these ham-handed shortcuts hurt the story, they also ditched what for me was the strongest part of the whole series: the secondary characters. The ones that got any screen time at all were almost all killed off in retarded fashion and the rest were just cast aside.
I think that was inevitable given the retarded level of proliferation of secondaries by GRRM, which also tied him into knots so much that he'll never finish the books. :wanker:
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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Elfdart » 2019-09-17 08:57pm

I haven't read the books, but my understanding is that Martin exited the freeway and went on some meandering country road for so long that he couldn't find his way back to the highway with GPS and a MAPSCO. It's the literary equivalent of when Yes covered the Paul Simon song America, taking a 3-minute tune and wanking it into a 22-minute epic.
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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Darth Yan » 2019-09-19 02:35am

Elfdart wrote:
2019-09-17 08:57pm
I haven't read the books, but my understanding is that Martin exited the freeway and went on some meandering country road for so long that he couldn't find his way back to the highway with GPS and a MAPSCO. It's the literary equivalent of when Yes covered the Paul Simon song America, taking a 3-minute tune and wanking it into a 22-minute epic.
Pretty much. He got so caught up on thematic stuff that the story ground to a halt. We didn't need Quentyn Martell despite what idiots like Emmett Booth argue and as a result everything dragged (book 5 was building up to 2 big battles that just don't happen.) In that regards the show was smart cutting most of the bullshit (some like Fake Aegon were necessary but we didn't need Victarion Greyjoy and Quentyn Martell)

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-09-23 03:55pm

So, Emmys happened. Best show, for season eight. How predictable, yet how insulting. On the plus side, no Emmy for writing or direction, either. Makes you wonder what they were giving it best show for.

No Emmy for Emelia Clarke. Peter Dinklage picked up supporting actor again. Most of the awards were apparently in more technical categories, which is fine. The show's production quality never took the nose dive that its scripts did.
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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by TheFeniX » 2019-09-23 04:20pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-09-23 03:55pm
No Emmy for Emelia Clarke. Peter Dinklage picked up supporting actor again.
Makes sense though. She wasn't given anything to work with. Every scene with her was basically "act like you are going crazy." Dinklage was, once again, given the lion's share (no pun intended) of heavy lifting and range. Dealing with multiple drawn out speeches, playing it as cool as possible under the threat of death from Bronn, dealing with the hopefuless of making things work out both for the city and his family, then being crushed when it all falls to shit, and the self-reflection of dealing with his failures and moving forward.

Everyone else was wrapping up their own shit, while Dinklage was involved in a lot of world building plots AND character development, rather than just bringing his development to a close. Even Danny's death was less about her and more about how it affects Jon and Westeros. That's how little she and her army existed as characters rather than a plot/writing obstacle.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-09-23 04:26pm

TheFeniX wrote:
2019-09-23 04:20pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-09-23 03:55pm
No Emmy for Emelia Clarke. Peter Dinklage picked up supporting actor again.
Makes sense though. She wasn't given anything to work with. Every scene with her was basically "act like you are going crazy." Dinklage was, once again, given the lion's share (no pun intended) of heavy lifting and range. Dealing with multiple drawn out speeches, playing it as cool as possible under the threat of death from Bronn, dealing with the hopefuless of making things work out both for the city and his family, then being crushed when it all falls to shit, and the self-reflection of dealing with his failures and moving forward.

Everyone else was wrapping up their own shit, while Dinklage was involved in a lot of world building plots AND character development, rather than just bringing his development to a close. Even Danny's death was less about her and more about how it affects Jon and Westeros. That's how little she and her army existed as characters rather than a plot/writing obstacle.
I see your point, though personally, I respect her as an actor for doing the best she could and remaining professional despite having such shitty material to work with, and having her character turned at the last minute into a cautionary tale about why we shouldn't have women in power.

Dinklage is a brilliant actor, but he's also benefited from being a fan favorite, and being given some of the best material, as you say.
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"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by TheFeniX » 2019-09-23 05:20pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-09-23 04:26pm
I see your point, though personally, I respect her as an actor for doing the best she could and remaining professional despite having such shitty material to work with, and having her character turned at the last minute into a cautionary tale about why we shouldn't have women in power.
It wasn't even last minute: they spent the whole season doing this. I can't recall the number of scenes with her that had the same emoting direction: start out with "longing" looks and the "high school girl: desperate for attention" routine, then move to "realization" with a side of "ominous stare" and slow camera zoom.

I'd have to rewatch the season, but I'm pretty sure you could do a "side-by-side" of her scenes and they play out hilariously similar. I remember at one point my wife got mad because I was laughing again and I explained it was because the director was beating me over the head with "look LOOK, This girl be CRAZY, son! She's like that booty call you were dumb enough to give her your real number. You hear me!?"

Also of note: Headey was WASTED this season doing nothing but "smug condescension." I like Clarke, but Headey is by far the superior actress. She was much more fun to watch when she was still in her "stoic front, but nervous about being in power" phase.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-09-23 06:11pm

TheFeniX wrote:
2019-09-23 05:20pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-09-23 04:26pm
I see your point, though personally, I respect her as an actor for doing the best she could and remaining professional despite having such shitty material to work with, and having her character turned at the last minute into a cautionary tale about why we shouldn't have women in power.
It wasn't even last minute: they spent the whole season doing this. I can't recall the number of scenes with her that had the same emoting direction: start out with "longing" looks and the "high school girl: desperate for attention" routine, then move to "realization" with a side of "ominous stare" and slow camera zoom.

I'd have to rewatch the season, but I'm pretty sure you could do a "side-by-side" of her scenes and they play out hilariously similar. I remember at one point my wife got mad because I was laughing again and I explained it was because the director was beating me over the head with "look LOOK, This girl be CRAZY, son! She's like that booty call you were dumb enough to give her your real number. You hear me!?"

Also of note: Headey was WASTED this season doing nothing but "smug condescension." I like Clarke, but Headey is by far the superior actress. She was much more fun to watch when she was still in her "stoic front, but nervous about being in power" phase.
Yeah.

This show just did not treat its female cast members or their characters well. And its going to age badly because of that. With the writing thoroughly in the shitter, all it really has going for it besides the quality of some of the acting is good effects/music/production values, and TV production values are only going to get better, while the treatment of its female characters is (hopefully, because the alternative is that we continue the current backward slide driven by the far Right) going to look worse and worse with age. I have a feeling that this show will not be remembered terribly fondly in 20 years.
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"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-11-17 08:06pm

So, quick update: after dodging the San Diego Comicon, Dipshit and Dumbass finally sat down and admitted that... they knew fuck all about what they were doing from the start:

https://vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/1 ... eiss-panel
David Benioff and D.B. Weiss clearly know how bad the backlash to Game of Thrones’ final season was. The show’s creators did, after all, skip their scheduled appearance at the show’s San Diego Comic-Con panel after the internet began ripping the final season to pieces online, and remained silent for months after the finale aired. So one might wonder why, at a panel at the Austin Film Festival over the weekend, the two chose to ruminate on just how underqualified they were for the job of adapting the fantasy mega-series in the first place. Perhaps they hoped a display of modesty would earn them some slack. But whatever outcome they desired, what they got instead was more outrage.

Twitter user @ForArya, who was in attendance, recapped the panel in a Twitter thread. During the panel Benioff and Weiss reportedly acknowledged that they had basically no TV qualifications to speak of at the time they landed their HBO deal. That fact alone was not new, but the extent to which that affected their early work was striking. Describing their earliest meeting with George R.R. Martin, Benioff said the author questioned their bona fides, per @ForArya. “We didn’t really have any,” he said. “We don’t know why he trusted us with his life’s work.” The two also apparently admitted to making basic writing mistakes in the pilot, saying, “Everything we could make a mistake in, we did.” That included script, casting, and costume design. Weiss described the experience as, essentially, a very expensive film school; the two didn’t even know how to work with costume designers, for instance, which made the entire thing a huge learning experience. After producing a season filled with 39-minute episodes, the two reportedly said HBO asked for an additional 100 minutes to fulfill their contractual obligations—so they added, for example, a shared scene with Robert Baratheon and Cersei Lannister, who previously somehow shared zero scenes in the entire season.

The revelations in the thread went on from there, including that the two downplayed fantasy elements to expand the fan base to include “mothers, NFL players” (?), and that they never really sat down to try and boil down all of the books’ essential elements, as they found the scope to be too big. Instead, they said, they thought about the scenes they wanted to depict, and that the show was about power. The entire story might be designed to project underdog status—look at where they are compared to where they started! But in the minds of plenty, especially those who have been critical of Benioff and Weiss before, it was just proof of white men’s ability to receive chances and benefit of the doubt that few others could dream of with such slim qualifications.

Ever since the finale aired, the Game of Thrones cast has been forced to acknowledge or avoid discussing the negative response, but Benioff and Weiss had previously largely avoided situations that would force them to respond. It’s striking, if slightly baffling, that the two decided to make these comments now. Even stranger is that the discussion seemed to confirm the harshest suspicions fans have harbored all along, or at least since they found themselves without Martin’s source material.

The season eight backlash came from fans and even Martin himself, but the show also managed to stage a victory lap at September’s Emmys nonetheless. It remains to be seen what Game of Thrones’ ultimate legacy will be. On one hand there’s a good chance there will never be a show like it again, in terms of broad viewership domination—and its mega-popularity could easily become its defining factor in the annals of TV history. Whether it’s remembered for anything beyond that impact is not guaranteed—but at least Benioff and Weiss got some solid TV writing experience out of it.
Wow.

So, not only did the botch the ending, but they've basically admitted that they were incompetent for the job when they were first hired, called into question the judgement of Martin and HBO in offering them the gig, and become walking poster-children for white male privilege.

Frankly, its amazing the series did as well as it did, and I think the cast, crew, directors and effects people, composer, hell pretty much everyone but the head writers, deserve an enormous amount of credit for this series not being an utter shit show from the get-go. Its just a shame that this extraordinary talent was wasted on a couple of hacks, rather than being given writing and management of the caliber they deserved.

Though to be fair, I think that a disturbing number of writers and directors in Hollywood operate in the same way: "Here's a list of cool scenes/set-pieces we want to shoot, now let's bash together a minimal plot to fit those scenes into". I remember my brother made pretty much that exact comment coming out of TFA, and Batman v Superman immediately jumps to mind as another film that was probably made more with "here are some cool scenes we want to shoot, now come up with a thin plot to justify it", rather than having a cohesive, well-thought out premise and theme from the start.
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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Ralin » 2019-11-17 09:11pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-11-17 08:06pm
Wow.

So, not only did the botch the ending, but they've basically admitted that they were incompetent for the job when they were first hired, called into question the judgement of Martin and HBO in offering them the gig, and become walking poster-children for white male privilege.
This seems like a weird thing to slam them for given that the early seasons where they had the least experience and competence were probably the best written.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-11-17 09:35pm

Ralin wrote:
2019-11-17 09:11pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-11-17 08:06pm
Wow.

So, not only did the botch the ending, but they've basically admitted that they were incompetent for the job when they were first hired, called into question the judgement of Martin and HBO in offering them the gig, and become walking poster-children for white male privilege.
This seems like a weird thing to slam them for given that the early seasons where they had the least experience and competence were probably the best written.
Well, much as I hate to echo the "any change to the source material=ruined forever" wing of fandom, it does give some credence to the idea that they were only good as long as they had GRRM's material to work with.

Mind you, I didn't hate most of six and seven. But it may be that they still had enough material/threads to carry on from GRRM at that point that they had a safety net, and eight was where it finally caught up with them (continuing an ongoing plot being easier than writing a satisfactory finale that ties up all those threads). I still think the biggest issues, though, are that they a) didn't give a shit any more, and b) were misogynists.

Their comments here do, to me, underline just how arrogant these guys are. And yeah, the white male privilege issue is probably a fair complaint here. How many prominent head writers are there who are women/minorities compared to white men? How many of them get a gig on anything remotely close to this scale, especially in this genre? How many of those who don't are actually more experienced in their field than these twits? Heck, any time a franchise hires a female director or head writer, you can bet there'll be some asshats shouting (probably with zero evidence) about how she just got the job for being a woman and "it shouldn't be political" (the implication being that if a woman got the job, it must have been due to an "agenda", because a woman couldn't possibly compete with a white man on merit). And then these two asshats sail in and get the biggest gig on television ever for... what? What exactly qualified them for this job? I don't know, maybe their initial pitch was really brilliant, but its easy to believe that they got the benefit of the doubt in part because of who they were. And its easy to imagine, especially given how flippantly they talk about it now (describing getting one of the biggest gigs in history as "very expensive film school", for example) that when they lucked out, or more likely rode on the coattails of other peoples' talent, and it didn't implode immediately around them, that they probably thought that they were untouchable, and just ran with their ideas regardless of whether anyone else thought they were good or bad (fun fact I just found out- they never, in the show's entire run, hired a full writing staff, instead writing most episodes themselves).

And you have to wonder how that privilege, even on a subconscious level, affected how they felt about a powerful woman competing with the men, and how they portrayed her on the show.

Edit: Their arrogance is also on display in Tyrion's arguments for why Bran should be king, because he has the best story (supposedly). Yeah, they literally used a character who's whole shtick was being clever to tell the audience that the ending they wrote was the best one.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by TheFeniX » 2019-11-18 12:49am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-11-17 08:06pm
Though to be fair, I think that a disturbing number of writers and directors in Hollywood operate in the same way: "Here's a list of cool scenes/set-pieces we want to shoot, now let's bash together a minimal plot to fit those scenes into". I remember my brother made pretty much that exact comment coming out of TFA, and Batman v Superman immediately jumps to mind as another film that was probably made more with "here are some cool scenes we want to shoot, now come up with a thin plot to justify it", rather than having a cohesive, well-thought out premise and theme from the start.
The whole "stitch together a bunch of cool scenes with this 'plot' thingy nerds cry about" sometimes works.* The problem is that writers and directors think combining it with "needlessly convoluted and nonsensical" plots are somehow more cerebral than more basic plots with interesting elements. While many movies over the years have this problem, I found that The Dark Knight really kicked it into overdrive because people think "random shit happening" is smart TV or like how the writer's for Bioshock: Infinite didn't understand (literally said this) multiverse theory, so they chose to make the game about that.

And people, both fans and "critics" (read: bloggers who get paid) crow about the great writing and stories of both. Because people think these plots being hard to understand (because they don't make sense) is somehow "cerebral." So idiots keep paying money for shit writing, so they keep doing more shit writing. CAPITALISM!™

*This is exactly what those "Meet the <X>" parody movies do. Which is why they are shit compared to movies in the genre such as Airplane!, Hot Shots, Men in Tights, etc. Those movies have cohesive plots because they are sticking with the source material. This is why they feel like separate movies. Because, you know, they are. Rather than just being a series of pop culture references stitched together with filler to get to the next scene.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-11-18 04:40am

I actually wouldn't use TDK as an example because, while it had some implausible plot points (as most action films do), it also felt like it had a coherent style and theme throughout the film. It has its faults, plot-wise, but I don't see it as a case of "just stitch together a bunch of individual cool scenes".
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Ralin » 2019-11-18 07:34am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-11-17 09:35pm
Their comments here do, to me, underline just how arrogant these guys are.
Or, you know, expressing amazement at what a huge opportunity they lucked and talked their way into and recognizing that they sure as hell didn’t get there by sheer brilliance.
And then these two asshats sail in and get the biggest gig on television ever for... what? What exactly qualified them for this job? I don't know, maybe their initial pitch was really brilliant, but its easy to believe that they got the benefit of the doubt in part because of who they were.
As I recall, part of it was because Martin asked them who Jon Snow’s father was and they were able to answer correctly on the spot.
And its easy to imagine, especially given how flippantly they talk about it now (describing getting one of the biggest gigs in history as "very expensive film school", for example) that when they lucked out, or more likely rode on the coattails of other peoples' talent, and it didn't implode immediately around them, that they probably thought that they were untouchable,
Protip: This is a bad thing in the same way that white teenagers getting probation and rehabilitation for crimes that black kids tend to receive harsh prison sentences for is a bad thing. i.e., it’s usually what should happen and the injustice is that minority kids get treated worse, not that the white kids are treated too well. Everyone outside the rare prodigy starts out sucking (and they have their own laundry list of issues), and everyone who makes it big lucked out in some way to get the opportunities that made it possible. Being able to fuck up and not get shitcanned immediately is part of what gives people the chance to learn and improve, and that is a good thing.
and just ran with their ideas regardless of whether anyone else thought they were good or bad (fun fact I just found out- they never, in the show's entire run, hired a full writing staff, instead writing most episodes themselves).
Given that for all its flaws this resulted in what was overall a mega-popular several year long series that made a fortune I would say that their decision to do so was in many ways justified.
And you have to wonder how that privilege, even on a subconscious level, affected how they felt about a powerful woman competing with the men, and how they portrayed her on the show.
That’s getting into pretty speculative territory.
Edit: Their arrogance is also on display in Tyrion's arguments for why Bran should be king, because he has the best story (supposedly). Yeah, they literally used a character who's whole shtick was being clever to tell the audience that the ending they wrote was the best one.
I mean, I guess?

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by TheFeniX » 2019-11-18 12:25pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-11-18 04:40am
I actually wouldn't use TDK as an example because, while it had some implausible plot points (as most action films do), it also felt like it had a coherent style and theme throughout the film. It has its faults, plot-wise, but I don't see it as a case of "just stitch together a bunch of individual cool scenes".
TDK was a slip-and-slide of nonsensical and incoherent bullshit happening, all to move from scene to scene from the promos, carried by the strength of its actors and big explosions, and ending with a long rant summing up why we sat though all this bullshit.

It's why I brought it up, the last few seasons of GoT were the Nolan Batman of HBO. It's a bad movie to me probably because it hit those "dumb audience" moments so well, it helped ruin everything. Like how World of Warcraft was so good (read: popular), it killed the MMO genre.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by TheFeniX » 2019-11-18 12:55pm

I want to say, I don't think D&D did a bad job on early GoTs. If anything, with a few hiccups, they setup a really good adaptation of the book, hitting the points that "worked" for TV, and relied on the strength of their actors and set-pieces. Then it just kind of fell into "we have these ideas for what needs to happen and where people need to be for the happening to happen" and the entire world-building fell away and we were left with a character show and scenes of <popular character bursts through the door>, <witty quip>, <queue laugh track>.

The conspiracy theory was that things went bonkers when they swept the Emmy's and then the push was to get "more of those award winning actors to do their thing to win more awards" and so worrying about WHAT was actually going on was way less important than getting <x> to deliver <y> dialog to win <z> award.

As noted: this is part of the "writing backwards" idea where you're worried about these scenes that can be played as promo material, and just kind of doing whatever you can to make them happen. Such as, for just one example, Jamie "heroically" riding at full gallop to try and kill Danny, then getting tackled by a teleporting Bronn, and then falling into the Mariana Trench, 3 feet off the shore, so we could get this REALLY COOL shot of him sinking in full armor, yet he's still somehow still alive to have his EPIC FIGHT with..... pirate dude, and lovingly embrace his sister in yet ANOTHER TOUCHING scene!

This is the crux of it, and I will beat it to death, I think back to "cool scenes" in older seasons and think "ok, I see how we got here." In later seasons, I don't care to remember when exactly it started, but I'm watching COOL SCENE and when I think about how we got here, my answers is "wizards."

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