Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

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Vendetta
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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Vendetta » 2019-09-03 12:44pm

TheFeniX wrote:
2019-09-03 11:53am
I don't recall them ever saying "how do we deal with her huge fucking army and OH YEA DRAGONS!
Obviously they'd read the script and knew they were all going to politely go home.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Elfdart » 2019-09-04 01:55pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-08-13 11:57pm
Also, the Comic-Con panel, which several expected attendees dropped out of following an online campaign to heckle the cast and crew. And as much as I hate the show, I must say that that is potentially crossing a line, including a legal one, depending on exactly what sort of behaviour they were trying to instigate.

https://vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/0 ... rya-theory
Last month, when HBO first announced that some of the cast and crew of Game of Thrones would attend San Diego Comic-Con after a divisive final season, the network promised a stacked roster of talent, including creators David Benioff and D.B. Weiss—along with Jacob Anderson (Grey Worm), John Bradley (Samwell Tarly), Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (Jaime Lannister), Liam Cunningham (Davos Seaworth), Nathalie Emmanuel (Missandei), Iain Glen (Ser Jorah Mormont), Conleth Hill (Varys), Maisie Williams (Arya Stark), Isaac Hempstead Wright (Bran Stark), and executive producer and frequent director Miguel Sapochnik. But after an ugly online movement to heckle the panel started gaining steam, Weiss, Benioff, Emmanuel, Glen, and Sapochnik all dropped out—most citing scheduling conflicts.
I'm torn between empathy at them for wanting to avoid possible harassment and irritation at people who blame actors for writing decisions, and the feeling that frankly, these chicken shits should have had the guts to stand up in front of their audience and justify their choices (even if I know that nothing good would have come of them trying to do so).
I didn't know any artist's contract included signing up for an Auto-da-fé.
It is deeply disheartening to me to see how a number of the cast, as well as of course the show runners, have attempted to defend this farce by spewing yet more misogynistic attacks on Daenerys's character.
The only farce is seeing so many "fans" acting like the dopey housewives who think soap opera characters are real people.
Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, on the other hand, had a more sanguine attitude about the fandom’s relationship with the show’s ending. While he spoke out months ago against a very silly fan-generated petition that lobbied HBO to remake season eight, he also said that it was fine to dislike the show’s ending—just as long as the complaints about the show didn’t turn into personal attacks on its creators. Case in point: When the actor said that he thought Jaime’s death in the arms of his sister-lover, Cersei, was “perfect,” someone in the crowd shouted out “liar!” Coster-Waldau’s eyebrows shot up in response. The end of a show you love, he pointed out to the Hall H crowd, will always piss you off.
Wow.

Given that he previously got some negative press for trying to defend the scene where Jaime raped Cersei (saying that he didn't see it as rape), my sympathy is very limited.
Would Brienne have taken Jaime back if he had survived and Cersei didn’t? Coster-Waldau said no, Jaime had too much baggage.
Not sure how I feel about him presuming to speak for another actor's character, when he's not the writer or director, but I'm glad he credits Brienne with not being a total doormat.
First of all, it's not just Coster-Waldau but Lena Headey and the director Alex Graves who insist it wasn't rape.
Lena Headey wrote:“It’s that terrible thing as a women—talking about something as horrendous as rape and dismissing it, which I’m not. But we never discussed it as that,” Headey told EW on the Thrones set in Dubrovnik. “It was a woman in grief for her dead child, and the father of the child—who happens to be her brother—who never really acknowledged the children is standing with her. We’ve all experienced grief. There’s a moment of wanting to fill a void, and that is often very visceral, physical. That, for me, is where she was at. There was an emotional block, and [her brother] was just a bit of a drug for her.”
But what do they know, right?
While perhaps understandable under the circumstances, the fact that they refused audience questions speaks volumes about the response to the show's finale, and the inability of its creators to defend it.

Still, credit at least to those on the panel for having the guts to show up, unlike the most guilty parties, the show runners themselves.
Since when does an artist owe an explanation to anyone about their creative decisions? I didn't know an artist was expected to submit to cross-examination over the choices they made as an artist. A century ago, H.L. Mencken wrote that no puritan has ever written a novel worth reading, composed music worth listening to, or painted a picture worth looking at. Today, this applies a hundredfold to the "woke" mobs and movies/TV.
"One way we recognize a mass hysteria movement is that everyone who doesn’t believe is accused of being in on the plot. This has been going on virtually unrestrained in both political and media circles in recent weeks."

--Matt Taibbi

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Elfdart » 2019-09-04 01:58pm

Darth Yan wrote:
2019-08-31 01:39pm
Ralin wrote:
2019-08-31 10:00am
Has it occurred to you that if people read the aristocratic woman who was convinced that she was entitled to rule a country she'd never lived in, frequently bragged about how she was going to burn her enemies alive, created an army out of super-soldier slaves and added a bunch of titles to her name emphasizing that she was the Messiah as a feminist icon that might say more bad things about the feminists watching the show than the way she was written?
Pretty much. It’s like Aung San Syu Kai. People were shocked when she turned out to be a racist bitch who ignored the suffering of the rohiynga when if you looked at her background it wasn’t that shocking
We have a winner.
"One way we recognize a mass hysteria movement is that everyone who doesn’t believe is accused of being in on the plot. This has been going on virtually unrestrained in both political and media circles in recent weeks."

--Matt Taibbi

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Darth Yan » 2019-09-05 04:09pm

I notice people don't seem bothered because a lot of the people Dany killed were assholes. Thing is a cruel act is a cruel act regardless of who's on the receiving end. In Season 7 we see the Dragon's fire from the other side and it's horrifying.

Dany's always had a "my way or the high way and if you slight me in any way, regardless of your reasons I will kill you." (Doreah being locked in the vault to die even though her reasons were somewhat sympathetic). Even with some of the masters she crucified some of them tried to oppose the cruel traditions of the city and she still did't care.

People who act like this is a betrayal of the character simply fell for Dany's facade.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Ziggy Stardust » 2019-09-06 10:02am

I mean, I feel like it shouldn't be that difficult for everyone to be on the same page about this. People seem to be acting like their stances on this are not mutually compatible, but they are.

Yes, on the one hand, there was foreshadowing from the beginning of the show that Dany would turn into the Mad Queen. But it can ALSO be true that due to poor writing in the latter seasons the character development and plot points that arose out of this foreshadowing were inconsistent and sloppily applied, such that the denouement felt rushed and unearned. All of these things can be true. Foreshadowing is not character development, yes; but, similarly, lack of character development does not imply lack of foreshadowing. Just because the final twist wasn't written in a particularly believable manner doesn't mean that this twist wasn't part of the natural arc the story was following. Dany was ALWAYS going to be the Mad Queen, but the transition could have and should have been more seamlessly executed.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by TheFeniX » 2019-09-06 02:01pm

Darth Yan wrote:
2019-09-05 04:09pm
I notice people don't seem bothered because a lot of the people Dany killed were assholes. Thing is a cruel act is a cruel act regardless of who's on the receiving end. In Season 7 we see the Dragon's fire from the other side and it's horrifying.
Thing is, there's still some ambiguity there. There are very few characters in GoTs that haven't done vile shit. Tywin may have deserved it, but nothing changes the fact Tyorion murdered him on the toilet. Tyrion has also pulled some vile things in order to protect his family.

But, and this is just me here, I'm not speaking for anyone else:I don't really care about that. It's the poor writing that doesn't sell any of this.

Let's just say Danny wasn't killed by Jon and did claim dominion over the 7 (or whatever's left) kingdoms. She's able to do so because the writer's made tons of other major issues not matter. They are justifying an ending by fiat. She's talking about ruling with an Iron Fist. Ruling what? What even is Brann ruling over? What? If this were actually well written, keeping King's Landing from burning to the fucking ground would be a thing. That the Throne Room and Red Keep are even still standing is just eye-rolling.

I'm no structural engineer, but I assume the "basement" of a building NOT designed with modern tech (and even those that are) collapsing like that should have basically knocked the whole building down. And the sad part is, I've been accused of nitpicking here which makes me laugh. Because GoT fans and their whole "super-serious gritty political fantasy" basically ended the same way most Capeshit does: they do billions of dollars in damage to <major population center>, then the next movie they are just trading quips, until <major population center> gets trashed again...... Seriously, GoTs ended like every fucking Marvel/DC movie. Billions in damage, massive death toll, and they sit around a table making small talk at the end.

People wanted a Season 1 style ending for a series that had dropped that formula 2 seasons ago. Pretty funny.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Vendetta » 2019-09-08 04:11pm

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
2019-09-06 10:02am
I mean, I feel like it shouldn't be that difficult for everyone to be on the same page about this. People seem to be acting like their stances on this are not mutually compatible, but they are.

Yes, on the one hand, there was foreshadowing from the beginning of the show that Dany would turn into the Mad Queen. But it can ALSO be true that due to poor writing in the latter seasons the character development and plot points that arose out of this foreshadowing were inconsistent and sloppily applied, such that the denouement felt rushed and unearned. All of these things can be true. Foreshadowing is not character development, yes; but, similarly, lack of character development does not imply lack of foreshadowing. Just because the final twist wasn't written in a particularly believable manner doesn't mean that this twist wasn't part of the natural arc the story was following. Dany was ALWAYS going to be the Mad Queen, but the transition could have and should have been more seamlessly executed.
The point of saying that foreshadowing is not character development is to say that character development is the necessary bit.

Foreshadowing can make character development more satisfying by presaging the direction a character is going to take, but it can't replace it. It's icing without the cake.


There's also two ways to say that a character was "always" going to do something. The diagetic way where it's a consistent progression of steps towards that act, and the non-diagetic way where it was always the writers' plan.

Daenerys' acts are explained by the latter, but that's unsatisfying because good stories need the former as well.

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by MKSheppard » 2019-09-12 06:57pm

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
2019-09-06 10:02am
Yes, on the one hand, there was foreshadowing from the beginning of the show that Dany would turn into the Mad Queen. But it can ALSO be true that due to poor writing in the latter seasons the character development and plot points that arose out of this foreshadowing were inconsistent and sloppily applied, such that the denouement felt rushed and unearned.
GOT basically used to be:

Plot Point A --------- huge wandering path through forests ----------> Plot Point B

For the last season it was:

Plot Point A ----------laserlike straight line ---------> Plot point B.
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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Elfdart » 2019-09-14 03:52am

MKSheppard wrote:
2019-09-12 06:57pm
GOT basically used to be:

Plot Point A --------- huge wandering path through forests ----------> Plot Point B

For the last season it was:

Plot Point A ----------laserlike straight line ---------> Plot point B.
I think that sums up the problems with the last few seasons rather well. In addition, not only did all these ham-handed shortcuts hurt the story, they also ditched what for me was the strongest part of the whole series: the secondary characters. The ones that got any screen time at all were almost all killed off in retarded fashion and the rest were just cast aside.
"One way we recognize a mass hysteria movement is that everyone who doesn’t believe is accused of being in on the plot. This has been going on virtually unrestrained in both political and media circles in recent weeks."

--Matt Taibbi

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by MKSheppard » 2019-09-17 04:06pm

Elfdart wrote:
2019-09-14 03:52am
In addition, not only did all these ham-handed shortcuts hurt the story, they also ditched what for me was the strongest part of the whole series: the secondary characters. The ones that got any screen time at all were almost all killed off in retarded fashion and the rest were just cast aside.
I think that was inevitable given the retarded level of proliferation of secondaries by GRRM, which also tied him into knots so much that he'll never finish the books. :wanker:
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Elfdart » 2019-09-17 08:57pm

I haven't read the books, but my understanding is that Martin exited the freeway and went on some meandering country road for so long that he couldn't find his way back to the highway with GPS and a MAPSCO. It's the literary equivalent of when Yes covered the Paul Simon song America, taking a 3-minute tune and wanking it into a 22-minute epic.
"One way we recognize a mass hysteria movement is that everyone who doesn’t believe is accused of being in on the plot. This has been going on virtually unrestrained in both political and media circles in recent weeks."

--Matt Taibbi

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Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Darth Yan » 2019-09-19 02:35am

Elfdart wrote:
2019-09-17 08:57pm
I haven't read the books, but my understanding is that Martin exited the freeway and went on some meandering country road for so long that he couldn't find his way back to the highway with GPS and a MAPSCO. It's the literary equivalent of when Yes covered the Paul Simon song America, taking a 3-minute tune and wanking it into a 22-minute epic.
Pretty much. He got so caught up on thematic stuff that the story ground to a halt. We didn't need Quentyn Martell despite what idiots like Emmett Booth argue and as a result everything dragged (book 5 was building up to 2 big battles that just don't happen.) In that regards the show was smart cutting most of the bullshit (some like Fake Aegon were necessary but we didn't need Victarion Greyjoy and Quentyn Martell)

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