Joker teaser trailer

[FaxModem1]

Looks like they're going for a sort of Taxi Driver thing, which is appropriate considering the character.

I, for one, will be rather creeped out in the theater, but definitely looking forward to it.

[NeoGoomba]

I'll repeat here what I've said on Twitter about it, because it has split my brain in half.

As a film in and of itself, it looks like a very compelling character film, and I am interested to see it. Also Phoenix is just awesome, so I have no doubt he will elevate the material.

As a Joker film, I have no interest in it, as a Joker origin story just cheapens and weakens the Joker as a character.

[Gandalf]

Looks good. Is this meant to interact with the other DC films?

As a Joker film, I have no interest in it, as a Joker origin story just cheapens and weakens the Joker as a character.

How so?

[The Romulan Republic]

People seem to feel that the Joker's mysterious background is somehow integral to the character. Not sure I agree. It works for certain takes on the character, like Nolan's or the Killing Joke's from which it is somewhat derived, but I think that the Joker, like Batman, is a character that can sustain multiple different interpretations. And its not like no version of the character has given us a Joker origin before- Burton's film did, off the top of my head.

The trailer looks like its could be for either a really good or really bad film. Hard to tell whether this is a shit film with a good trailer, or a good film. I do worry a bit about it ending up romanticizing DC's biggest psychopath, or making him out to be a sympathetic or heroic figure. I don't want some "Joker was right, Batman is the real villain" shit taking over the whole franchise. But Phoenix looks like he's given a good performance. Performance and appearance-wise it definitely seems to be channeling Ledger's Joker more than any of the others.

On that note- is this going to be at all connected to the DC cinematic universe (I'm not sure how it can be, as Leto Joker is thankfully nowhere in sight), or is it going to be a one-off standalone thing?

I can already tell, due to all of the above, that this film is probably going to be highly divisive in the fandom.

[Zaune]

The trailer looks like its could be for either a really good or really bad film. Hard to tell whether this is a shit film with a good trailer, or a good film. I do worry a bit about it ending up romanticizing DC's biggest psychopath, or making him out to be a sympathetic or heroic figure. I don't want some "Joker was right, Batman is the real villain" shit taking over the whole franchise. But Phoenix looks like he's given a good performance. Performance and appearance-wise it definitely seems to be channeling Ledger's Joker more than any of the others.

Most other Batman villains have survived the process, including his right-hand woman and occasional lover. Nor is it the first time the Joker has been portrayed as someone who was driven to becoming a villain rather than being born that way.

Besides, we can always pretend it's an origin story for the Red Hood.

[Jub]

All of Gotham's rogues tend to be products of the city's unique circumstances and I think that makes all of their origin stories compelling in a way that other comic characters rarely are. Gotham is more than a little crazy so seeing how one of its craziest characters became the Joker ought to be interesting.

For me, not a huge comic fan and more than a little burnt out on Marvel, this is the first comic movie in a while I'm excited for.

[The Romulan Republic]

The trailer looks like its could be for either a really good or really bad film. Hard to tell whether this is a shit film with a good trailer, or a good film. I do worry a bit about it ending up romanticizing DC's biggest psychopath, or making him out to be a sympathetic or heroic figure. I don't want some "Joker was right, Batman is the real villain" shit taking over the whole franchise. But Phoenix looks like he's given a good performance. Performance and appearance-wise it definitely seems to be channeling Ledger's Joker more than any of the others.

Most other Batman villains have survived the process, including his right-hand woman and occasional lover. Nor is it the first time the Joker has been portrayed as someone who was driven to becoming a villain rather than being born that way.

Besides, we can always pretend it's an origin story for the Red Hood.

Yeah, but its particularly problematic with the Joker, because he's kind of the Batman villain, and the one particularly notorious for his sadism and nihilism. And "the Joker is right" is not a view that want to see DC pushing, both because DC has more than enough of an "edgy grimdark" fetish as it is, and because we live in a culture of growing nihilism and "burn it all" mentality which has real effects on our political discourse, and the Joker has already inspired multiple real-life mass murderers.

So I do have some concerns.

[Jub]

Yeah, but its particularly problematic with the Joker, because he's kind of the Batman villain, and the one particularly notorious for his sadism and nihilism. And "the Joker is right" is not a view that want to see DC pushing, both because DC has more than enough of an "edgy grimdark" fetish as it is, and because we live in a culture of growing nihilism and "burn it all" mentality which has real effects on our political discourse, and the Joker has already inspired multiple real-life mass murderers.

So I do have some concerns.

So you're predisposed to dislike this movie because of fears that it might impact DCs vision for the future and that such a vision could continue a trend of political discourse you dislike. That's a long chain of worries for a comic book movie to trigger, don't you think?

I'm not picking on you here either. It just really seems like politics is living rent-free in your head these days and it's influencing everything from a silly debate about Holdo to talking about a trailer for a damned good looking movie. I don't know if its crossing lines in other parts of your life but it's okay to disconnect and stop worrying a politics for a few days.

[The Romulan Republic]

Everything's political. You can be sub-consciously or consciously political, you can be aware of or unaware of the political implications of your thoughts, words, and actions, but its there whether you acknowledge it or not. One can no more stop being political than one can stop breathing. Although sometimes it is nice to take a break and stop thinking about it consciously for a bit.

But its not just overtly political concerns, no. I'm worried about how it'll effect what DC writes in the future. Like I said, grimdark isn't my thing, and DC already tends that way, especially with Batman. I don't want to see "the Joker is the hero, and Batman is the bad guy" become the dominant take in other DC media, because that would just ruin the characters for me.

I'll probably go see the movie. I'll give it a chance (unless the reviews/subsequent trailers paint a really awful picture, anyway). But it will be with a degree of trepidation, because a Joker movie is something that's really easy to mess up.

That said, I'm already seeing Phoenix getting a potential Oscar nomination, just from that trailer.

[FaxModem1]

The trailer looks like its could be for either a really good or really bad film. Hard to tell whether this is a shit film with a good trailer, or a good film. I do worry a bit about it ending up romanticizing DC's biggest psychopath, or making him out to be a sympathetic or heroic figure. I don't want some "Joker was right, Batman is the real villain" shit taking over the whole franchise. But Phoenix looks like he's given a good performance. Performance and appearance-wise it definitely seems to be channeling Ledger's Joker more than any of the others.

Most other Batman villains have survived the process, including his right-hand woman and occasional lover. Nor is it the first time the Joker has been portrayed as someone who was driven to becoming a villain rather than being born that way.

Besides, we can always pretend it's an origin story for the Red Hood.

Yeah, but its particularly problematic with the Joker, because he's kind of the Batman villain, and the one particularly notorious for his sadism and nihilism. And "the Joker is right" is not a view that want to see DC pushing, both because DC has more than enough of an "edgy grimdark" fetish as it is, and because we live in a culture of growing nihilism and "burn it all" mentality which has real effects on our political discourse, and the Joker has already inspired multiple real-life mass murderers.

So I do have some concerns.

Remember, the Joker is a character who is a contradiction of society, and an embracing of nihilism. The Killing Joke is all about Joker being wrong, in that the Joker is someone who embraced the darkness after One Bad Day, while someone like Gordon didn't. And a big part of Joker's origin, if true, is that Joker was just a guy so desperate for cash that he turned to crime, got in way over his head, and it destroyed his life. If that's where they're going with this film, it should be showing the failings of society, and how Joker is someone society could have prevented if it was more caring, as opposed to more cold.

Yes, this reminds me of Taxi Driver, and that film did inspire a shooting, but it looks to be artistically interesting enough that it should be enjoyable, and we shouldn't ban media based on how people can overreact to it.

And, remember, Aquaman was a fun film about how environmentalism is important, and needs to be a concern, without committing genocide. And Shazam is coming out this week, a film about a homeless orphan who is so good in spirit, and such a positive person in spite of his world, that a magical wizard chooses him as his champion and gives him the power to make his world better.

We'll be seeing more positive things in the future. Just remember that DC does show, both with it's heroes and it's villains, how society is problematic and needs people to step in and help in what ways they can, such as Wonder Woman or Aquaman, other people will be broken by society because of what it does to them, like the Joker, and others, like Sivana or Luthor, are those who use society to get what they want, not caring about how they hurt as they do so.

[The Romulan Republic]

Most other Batman villains have survived the process, including his right-hand woman and occasional lover. Nor is it the first time the Joker has been portrayed as someone who was driven to becoming a villain rather than being born that way.

Besides, we can always pretend it's an origin story for the Red Hood.

Yeah, but its particularly problematic with the Joker, because he's kind of the Batman villain, and the one particularly notorious for his sadism and nihilism. And "the Joker is right" is not a view that want to see DC pushing, both because DC has more than enough of an "edgy grimdark" fetish as it is, and because we live in a culture of growing nihilism and "burn it all" mentality which has real effects on our political discourse, and the Joker has already inspired multiple real-life mass murderers.

So I do have some concerns.

Remember, the Joker is a character who is a contradiction of society, and an embracing of nihilism. The Killing Joke is all about Joker being wrong, in that the Joker is someone who embraced the darkness after One Bad Day, while someone like Gordon didn't. And a big part of Joker's origin, if true, is that Joker was just a guy so desperate for cash that he turned to crime, got in way over his head, and it destroyed his life. If that's where they're going with this film, it should be showing the failings of society, and how Joker is someone society could have prevented if it was more caring, as opposed to more cold.

As I said, it could be really good or really bad.

But yeah, I think we need to see that the Joker is wrong. You'll still get fans who insist that he's right, because a lot of fans are really stupid/see what they want to see, but the film needs to show that he's wrong.

Yes, this reminds me of Taxi Driver, and that film did inspire a shooting, but it looks to be artistically interesting enough that it should be enjoyable, and we shouldn't ban media based on how people can overreact to it.

Who said anything about banning? I'm just expressing my personal misgivings about it.

But yeah, the Joker has frequently been cited as an inspiration for actual violent acts. Heck, this site lists 16 different crimes and acts of violence that may have been inspired at least partly by the Joker (a number of which also had obvious Alt. Reich inspirations, interestingly enough):

https://www.ranker.com/list/real-crimes ... ob-shelton

Of course, the counter-argument would be that these people were generally already unstable, and that even if the Joker might have influenced the specifics of their acts, or been referenced by them, they probably would have done something regardless.

And, remember, Aquaman was a fun film about how environmentalism is important, and needs to be a concern, without committing genocide. And Shazam is coming out this week, a film about a homeless orphan who is so good in spirit, and such a positive person in spite of his world, that a magical wizard chooses him as his champion and gives him the power to make his world better.

We'll be seeing more positive things in the future. Just remember that DC does show, both with it's heroes and it's villains, how society is problematic and needs people to step in and help in what ways they can, such as Wonder Woman or Aquaman, other people will be broken by society because of what it does to them, like the Joker, and others, like Sivana or Luthor, are those who use society to get what they want, not caring about how they hurt as they do so.

I'm aware of this of course, and I'd like to think that we're seeing the beginning of some real push back against the culture of cynical nihilism which preaches that nothing matters, everything is just as bad and always will be, and glorifies selfishness or destruction while denigrate those who have ideals. But we'll have to wait and see. Like I said, this could be a really good or a really shit movie.

At least its not Leto Joker. So its got that going for it. I don't usually go for character bashing, but Leto Joker was just... ugg.

[NeoGoomba]

How so?

Because nothing about Joker's origin, to me, has any true bearing on who he is as a character other than at one point he just snapped. Despite the issues with The Killing Joke and The Dark Knight film, the Joker constantly making up different stories about himself, I think, is all we need. That ambiguity suits him. He's just a crazy motherfucker, and that craziness works almost like Batman's mask in that sense of "anyone could be him on after a really bad day". Now, the KIND of crazy and the lengths he will go can and will differ in portrayals, but I have zero desire to see him pre-Joker, if that makes sense?

Like, if they try and make him sympathetic, it falls flat because we all know he's a fucking psychopath later, and there won't really be any tragedy. At least with Darth Vader he was a galactic hero who fell from a great height, not some poor schlub or goon that fell into some acid.

And if they go in the other direction, if they make him unlikable before the Joker, then the film just becomes a drag to watch and no one will really care about pre-Joker (again), and the whole point of the film is rendered useless.

Also I think I am just done with origin stories.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

It looks like it could be a great character study or tragic descent film, but I have no interest in seeing it. I'm past the point in my life where I find watching a great movie or show to be worth a miserable experience.

[Gandalf]

Because nothing about Joker's origin, to me, has any true bearing on who he is as a character other than at one point he just snapped. Despite the issues with The Killing Joke and The Dark Knight film, the Joker constantly making up different stories about himself, I think, is all we need. That ambiguity suits him. He's just a crazy motherfucker, and that craziness works almost like Batman's mask in that sense of "anyone could be him on after a really bad day". Now, the KIND of crazy and the lengths he will go can and will differ in portrayals, but I have zero desire to see him pre-Joker, if that makes sense?

Like, if they try and make him sympathetic, it falls flat because we all know he's a fucking psychopath later, and there won't really be any tragedy. At least with Darth Vader he was a galactic hero who fell from a great height, not some poor schlub or goon that fell into some acid.

And if they go in the other direction, if they make him unlikable before the Joker, then the film just becomes a drag to watch and no one will really care about pre-Joker (again), and the whole point of the film is rendered useless.

Also I think I am just done with origin stories.

I enjoy the Killing Joke/Dark Knight take on it, where he's a force of nature more than anything else, but I also see that as having now been done. Joker does stuff and everyone reacts. That's... it.

To mix that up and give the Joker a humanity, showing what took him from being a regular guy to the Joker we know, gives a more nuanced view on both him and Gotham. We tend to see the Joker and Gotham through Bruce Wayne's eyes. He sees the horrors of the city, and then retires to stately Wayne Manor with his butler and ward.

When Joe Chill shot the Waynes, Bruce had all of the support he could need at the time. However, when Arthur Fleck goes through whatever his big trauma moment is, he (presumably) doesn't have any support. Both Wayne and Fleck are victims of Gotham's rot and corruption. Both went mad. The difference is the direction in which they went with their madness as they sought to impose their will on the city which had shaped them so. That's the opportunity that this film has; to create a great mirror to Batman, through which we see the city which shapes them. Also it might make sense as to why Batman doesn't kill the Joker, because he sees something of a perverted mirror of himself.

[The Romulan Republic]

Batman doesn't kill the Joker for the same reasons he doesn't kill anyone else.

But yeah, I think the faceless Joker with no clear past has been done, and it doesn't weaken the character to show him as an actual person with a past.

[Lord Revan]

I think the best way to have "tragic victim of society" version of the Joker is to show the tradegy semi-good man becoming something as vile and crazy as the Joker is. Have the Joker be a villain protagonist of sorts, clear from the get go that he's not someone to look up to but rather someone you should pity.

I like Gandalf said show that the Joker was some who either didn't get any support what so ever or the wrong kind of "support" for his problems due to not being from the right kind of family (It seems rather clear that the Joker at least visits Arkham in the movie), to show from the corrupt and rotten society that is Gotham City broke him until there was nothing left of the man he was and there's only the Joker remaining.