Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

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Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-11-15 09:21pm

Just got back from seeing it.

Not too bad. Suffers as it's clearly a brick laying film, using plot points from other pieces of the franchise to set up things for down the road.

The main story that is introduced and resolved in this film is the story of Lyta/Leeta Lestrange. Everything else is introduced in this film, to be paid off later, or is continuing plotpoints from the first film.

Minor sidenotes: I love the Ministry of Magic in the 1920s, while the same set from the Harry Potter films, looks a lot more warm and welcoming than it did in the Harry Potter films.

The Paris Ministry of Magic is a rather interesting design. Definitely embracing Art Noveau to the full extent.

It's a little annoying how cute they have to be about Dumbledore and Grindlewald's relationship due to the Chinese market. They are really trying to see how they can convey such a relationship, without actually conveying such a relationship on-screen. That said, there's definitely blatant subtext there. 'Closer than brothers' indeed.

Definitely opens up more questions for later on.




SPOILERS

So, regarding the worldbuilding of 1920s Wizarding world. Yeah, it's....uh, well, worse than we thought, Turns out, 1990s Wizarding Britain is more civilized than it's 1920s counterpart. They may detain you without trial at the drop of a hat, or via a kangaroo court, but at least they'll keep you alive in a magical prison in which your soul is slowly sucked out, rather than just shoot you dead because you looked at them funny, which these ones do.

Magical Rape via Imperius is a plot point. Something that just kind of happens with no consequence legally, as the perpetrator seems to go unpunished for decades.

Magical Aurors have a 'kill on sight' order for almost anyone, it seems, no matter the nationality. This has led to what are outcasts in the Wizarding world flocking to Grindlewald, due to his appeal for a more open magical world. That, and via magic having a prediction about the destructive qualities of non-magical people with our 'elegance', and how there needs to be putting a stop to it.

This leads to an unusual recruit for Grindlewald's forces. Seeing Credence join under Grindlewald's banner was an expected move, for he is very damaged, almost alone in the world, and just seeking some way to end the pain. Queenie, however, that is a very interesting turn for her character, one that I'm not sure I totally buy, as she and Jacob could just move to a different nation and elope. That said, maybe she wants Wizarding America to be just as civilized as the other Magical Countries regarding Muggle and Magick relations.

We also now know why Dumbledore is sitting on his hands regarding Grindlewald. (Aside from the trauma regarding his dead sister). He literally can't do anything due to a magical blood pact he made with him back in their young lover years, and Newt's mission is to retrieve it so that Dumbledore can act against him.

On the other side, Grindlewald is turning Credence, I mean Aurelius Dumbledore, into his superweapon against Albus. That's an odd one, considering Credence's age, on how exactly he is a Dumbledore, and is supposed to Albus's baby brother, as the Dumbledore parents are supposed to be dead or imprisoned.

I'm sure more information will come out in the third Fantastic Beasts film, but it comes to show that this is essentially one part in a much bigger story.
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by Tribble » 2018-11-17 09:53pm

FaxModem1 wrote:We also now know why Dumbledore is sitting on his hands regarding Grindlewald. (Aside from the trauma regarding his dead sister). He literally can't do anything due to a magical blood pact he made with him back in their young lover years, and Newt's mission is to retrieve it so that Dumbledore can act against him.

On the other side, Grindlewald is turning Credence, I mean Aurelius Dumbledore, into his superweapon against Albus. That's an odd one, considering Credence's age, on how exactly he is a Dumbledore, and is supposed to Albus's baby brother, as the Dumbledore parents are supposed to be dead or imprisoned.
*sigh*

Sometimes I really wish writers/directors would just leave their character's backstory alone after they have finished a series.

The original explanation was already more than good enough; Dumbledore was afraid of finding out the truth of his sister's death, while Grindelwald was afraid that Dumbledore was his superior (which turned out to be true)... and both had been infatuated with one other. I really fail to see the need for this, and IMO if this is the actual explanation it cheapens things.

Edit: Plus, if Credence is in fact a relative of Dumbledore's, why would Dumbledore not know about it? You'd think he'd keep track of such things like "I have another younger sibling"? Ugh.

Of course its possible that Dumbledore is just using the blood pact as an excuse while Grindelwald is lying to Credence about his origins, so I guess we'll have to see where this goes.
Last edited by Tribble on 2018-11-17 10:03pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-17 09:55pm

Yeah. My immediate reaction is "that sounds like bad fanfic." My follow-up is: "Oh great, the took away any of the nuances of the character by negating his choices in the matter and making his decisions the result of a magical compulsion."

Because writing actual characters is hard, I guess.
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by Broomstick » 2018-11-18 05:56am

Tribble wrote:
2018-11-17 09:53pm
Edit: Plus, if Credence is in fact a relative of Dumbledore's, why would Dumbledore not know about it? You'd think he'd keep track of such things like "I have another younger sibling"? Ugh.
I haven't seen the movie, but I'm just going to say that I've known a couple of people in real life who found out as adults they have half-siblings they didn't know about. It involves things pre-marital relationships, marital infidelity, losing contact with a parent after a divorce, and things of that sort but it can and does happen. It's possible to discover even full siblings if families were split early on by adopting out children.

Don't know how it's handled in the movie, so it could be done poorly there, but losing track of siblings is not an unknown phenomena.
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by ray245 » 2018-11-18 07:01am

Broomstick wrote:
2018-11-18 05:56am
Tribble wrote:
2018-11-17 09:53pm
Edit: Plus, if Credence is in fact a relative of Dumbledore's, why would Dumbledore not know about it? You'd think he'd keep track of such things like "I have another younger sibling"? Ugh.
I haven't seen the movie, but I'm just going to say that I've known a couple of people in real life who found out as adults they have half-siblings they didn't know about. It involves things pre-marital relationships, marital infidelity, losing contact with a parent after a divorce, and things of that sort but it can and does happen. It's possible to discover even full siblings if families were split early on by adopting out children.

Don't know how it's handled in the movie, so it could be done poorly there, but losing track of siblings is not an unknown phenomena.
The timeline simply doesn't work. Dumbledore's father was imprisoned fairly early on in the late 19th century and his mother died shortly after. Given Credance is supposed to be a teenager/early 20s, none of them above case would work.
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-11-18 07:55am

Tribble wrote:
2018-11-17 09:53pm
FaxModem1 wrote:We also now know why Dumbledore is sitting on his hands regarding Grindlewald. (Aside from the trauma regarding his dead sister). He literally can't do anything due to a magical blood pact he made with him back in their young lover years, and Newt's mission is to retrieve it so that Dumbledore can act against him.

On the other side, Grindlewald is turning Credence, I mean Aurelius Dumbledore, into his superweapon against Albus. That's an odd one, considering Credence's age, on how exactly he is a Dumbledore, and is supposed to Albus's baby brother, as the Dumbledore parents are supposed to be dead or imprisoned.
*sigh*

Sometimes I really wish writers/directors would just leave their character's backstory alone after they have finished a series.

The original explanation was already more than good enough; Dumbledore was afraid of finding out the truth of his sister's death, while Grindelwald was afraid that Dumbledore was his superior (which turned out to be true)... and both had been infatuated with one other. I really fail to see the need for this, and IMO if this is the actual explanation it cheapens things.
Probably because while it's easy to digest hearing how Dumbledore spent most of the war locked away in a school instead of acting, it probably becomes a bit frustrating on-screen and seems as if he's nothing but a coward and that's rather hard to have for one of your major characters in a film franchise.
Edit: Plus, if Credence is in fact a relative of Dumbledore's, why would Dumbledore not know about it? You'd think he'd keep track of such things like "I have another younger sibling"? Ugh.

Of course its possible that Dumbledore is just using the blood pact as an excuse while Grindelwald is lying to Credence about his origins, so I guess we'll have to see where this goes.
I'm betting Grindlewald is lying. Especially as he didn't seem to know how powerful Credence was in the first film. It was only after that he started to really show interest.

As to whether or not Dumbledore is using it as an excuse? We'll have to wait and see.
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-11-18 03:36pm

ray245 wrote:
2018-11-18 07:01am
Broomstick wrote:
2018-11-18 05:56am
Tribble wrote:
2018-11-17 09:53pm
Edit: Plus, if Credence is in fact a relative of Dumbledore's, why would Dumbledore not know about it? You'd think he'd keep track of such things like "I have another younger sibling"? Ugh.
I haven't seen the movie, but I'm just going to say that I've known a couple of people in real life who found out as adults they have half-siblings they didn't know about. It involves things pre-marital relationships, marital infidelity, losing contact with a parent after a divorce, and things of that sort but it can and does happen. It's possible to discover even full siblings if families were split early on by adopting out children.

Don't know how it's handled in the movie, so it could be done poorly there, but losing track of siblings is not an unknown phenomena.
The timeline simply doesn't work. Dumbledore's father was imprisoned fairly early on in the late 19th century and his mother died shortly after. Given Credance is supposed to be a teenager/early 20s, none of them above case would work.
It has already been pointed out that there are conflicts with the canon timeline; not having seen the movie, I can't comment, but presumably it may be fixed in movie three, seeing as it's inevitably going to be a trilogy.
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-11-18 04:08pm

There's at least five movies planned, assuming the cashcow holds out
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by wautd » 2018-11-19 09:14am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-11-15 09:21pm
Not too bad
That's about my feeling too, although with movies in the HP universe I was gotten used to greatness.
A good world building movie with a spectacular opening but also with a rather anti climactic and boring battle near the end

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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-11-19 12:15pm

I'm rather surprised there's no talk about the Magical Blue wall Aurors have in the Fantastic Beasts era.
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by Gandalf » 2018-11-19 03:15pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-11-15 09:21pm
So, regarding the worldbuilding of 1920s Wizarding world. Yeah, it's....uh, well, worse than we thought, Turns out, 1990s Wizarding Britain is more civilized than it's 1920s counterpart. They may detain you without trial at the drop of a hat, or via a kangaroo court, but at least they'll keep you alive in a magical prison in which your soul is slowly sucked out, rather than just shoot you dead because you looked at them funny, which these ones do.

Magical Rape via Imperius is a plot point. Something that just kind of happens with no consequence legally, as the perpetrator seems to go unpunished for decades.

Magical Aurors have a 'kill on sight' order for almost anyone, it seems, no matter the nationality. This has led to what are outcasts in the Wizarding world flocking to Grindlewald, due to his appeal for a more open magical world. That, and via magic having a prediction about the destructive qualities of non-magical people with our 'elegance', and how there needs to be putting a stop to it.
Makes sense. 1920's Britain was still running an Empire, so I could see that the imperial mindset would really carry on to the magical class. Replace muggles with all of the people that Britain "discovered" and it all sort of lines up.
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-11-19 07:28pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-11-19 03:15pm
Makes sense. 1920's Britain was still running an Empire, so I could see that the imperial mindset would really carry on to the magical class. Replace muggles with all of the people that Britain "discovered" and it all sort of lines up.
There's an interesting question. Do wizards respect Muggle borders? Are Texan wizards still part of Mexico, are they part of the US? Their own country?

Will Magical India be gaining Independence the next few years? Are they part of Magical Britain? Were ever they part if Magical Britain at all, or did they retain Independence regardless of what happened to their muggle equivalent?
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-19 07:38pm

IIRC, there was a reference somewhere to magical East Timor or something- a very young country, and it at least suggests that the borders follow Muggle ones pretty closely. We also never hear of a canonical wizard country that does not exist in the real world, unless maybe if you count Grindlewald's faction?

How much that makes sense depends partly on how much of the Wizarding World is composed of Muggleborns/Half-bloods etc. People with Muggle roots. But I expect a lot of it comes down to the Statute of Secrecy. The Wizarding World really is built around maintaining it, to a frightening extent. So following Muggle borders makes it easier to coordinate with Muggle governments to maintain the SoS.

Or at least that's the best explanation I've got.
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by Gandalf » 2018-11-19 08:38pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-11-19 07:28pm
There's an interesting question. Do wizards respect Muggle borders? Are Texan wizards still part of Mexico, are they part of the US? Their own country?

Will Magical India be gaining Independence the next few years? Are they part of Magical Britain? Were ever they part if Magical Britain at all, or did they retain Independence regardless of what happened to their muggle equivalent?
Why would they care about muggle borders? They have a system wherein they can mindrape anyone who so much as sees wizards doing wizard stuff. If that's accepted, I don't see why anyone would care about borders.
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-11-19 10:26pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-11-19 08:38pm
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-11-19 07:28pm
There's an interesting question. Do wizards respect Muggle borders? Are Texan wizards still part of Mexico, are they part of the US? Their own country?

Will Magical India be gaining Independence the next few years? Are they part of Magical Britain? Were ever they part if Magical Britain at all, or did they retain Independence regardless of what happened to their muggle equivalent?
Why would they care about muggle borders? They have a system wherein they can mindrape anyone who so much as sees wizards doing wizard stuff. If that's accepted, I don't see why anyone would care about borders.
No idea, but they care enough that America is separate from Britain, and not still part of the Magical British Empire.
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by wautd » 2018-11-21 06:53am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-11-19 07:28pm
Gandalf wrote:
2018-11-19 03:15pm
Makes sense. 1920's Britain was still running an Empire, so I could see that the imperial mindset would really carry on to the magical class. Replace muggles with all of the people that Britain "discovered" and it all sort of lines up.
There's an interesting question. Do wizards respect Muggle borders? Are Texan wizards still part of Mexico, are they part of the US? Their own country?

Will Magical India be gaining Independence the next few years? Are they part of Magical Britain? Were ever they part if Magical Britain at all, or did they retain Independence regardless of what happened to their muggle equivalent?
Good question. According to my wive (who's a huge Potterhead): yes
(which is why they need travel permits to travel to other countries etc)

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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by wautd » 2018-11-21 10:29am

Also, in the first movie it was also mentioned that Newt and his brother fought on the Eastern Front during the Great war, so I guess the wizarding world doesn't only respect muggle borders, but they also fight the same wars

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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-11-21 11:32am

On the other hand, there is Transylvanian National Quidditch team mentioned in Goblet Of Fire. So it's not all identical.
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-22 01:20am

That's a good point.

As to wars overlapping, it doesn't line up perfectly, but there is clearly enough back and forth interaction between the worlds for the conflicts of one to influence the other to some extent. IIRC, Pottermore claims that thousands of Wizards and Witches illegally participated in the First World War despite their governments forbidding them to do so- I'd imagine mostly ones with Muggle connections, who either felt some loyalty to their Muggle nations, or just saw innocent people suffering and wanted to do something about it.
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by Lord Revan » 2018-11-22 01:29am

It wouldn't surprice me at all if there was wizarding "nations" that repesented wizards from several smaller muggle nations (or simply nations with smaller wizarding populations if the distribution isn't more or less equal across all nations).
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-22 01:33am

That's a good point as well. Given the relatively small percentage of the populace that are magical, a very small Muggle nation might have too few magical inhabitants to form a proper country.
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-11-22 11:48pm

Given the separate wizarding society within most countries, it's quite possible that some went in a different direction from the Muggle countries historically, though obviously not to an extreme degree. For example perhaps Belgium and the Netherlands might be one nation, Italy could remain a confederation of loosely aligned duchies, and so forth. For practical purposes it doesn't make much difference from a literary standpoint unless some political peculiarity became a plot point, but one has to think about how the Muggle world itself might look if for example the Thirty Years' War didn't happen. Or the unification of Italy under Garibaldi. Would Wizards have taken part in Muggle political changes like that? Things like that.

I mean, it's fairly clear that they did to some degree; certainly Harry and company seem to identify as generally British, and regional differences are noted such as (IIRC) Seamus Finnigan being Irish, and Pottermore does report that there were wizards on both sides of WWI at least, possibly (probably?) WWII as well. But changes on a (relatively) minor scale such as, I dunno, Turin deciding to join the Kingdom of Italy? Would that matter to the wizarding population of the former independent polity of Turin?

I suppose we'll never quite know...
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-23 02:27am

Grindlewald and WW2 are pretty obvious connected, given that Grindlewald (based in Continental Europe) is stated to have been brought down in '45, and that the way in which the symbol of the Deathly Hallows is used in relation to Grindlewald is pretty obviously intended to invoke the Swastika (older mythological symbol coopted by modern racist extremist, subsequently seen as shameful by most of society but used by modern sympathizers and asshats trying to seem edgy).
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by ray245 » 2018-11-23 05:23am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-11-23 02:27am
Grindlewald and WW2 are pretty obvious connected, given that Grindlewald (based in Continental Europe) is stated to have been brought down in '45, and that the way in which the symbol of the Deathly Hallows is used in relation to Grindlewald is pretty obviously intended to invoke the Swastika (older mythological symbol coopted by modern racist extremist, subsequently seen as shameful by most of society but used by modern sympathizers and asshats trying to seem edgy).
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Re: Fantastic Beasts and the Crimes of Grindlewald (SPOILERS)

Post by Tribble » 2018-11-23 06:24am

ray245 wrote:
2018-11-23 05:23am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-11-23 02:27am
Grindlewald and WW2 are pretty obvious connected, given that Grindlewald (based in Continental Europe) is stated to have been brought down in '45, and that the way in which the symbol of the Deathly Hallows is used in relation to Grindlewald is pretty obviously intended to invoke the Swastika (older mythological symbol coopted by modern racist extremist, subsequently seen as shameful by most of society but used by modern sympathizers and asshats trying to seem edgy).
Luna's father was wearing it.
Luna's father, crazy as he was (even by wizard standards) knew what the symbol actually meant. He was a believer of the deathly Hallows after all.

It appears that many wizards post-Grindelwald didnt, judging from how pissed off someome from the continent got when he saw Luna's father wearing it, and given the hero trio's lack of knowledge of the subject altogether up until that point.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - The official Troll motto, as stated by Adam Savage

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