Avengers/Star Wars force addition.

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The Romulan Republic
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Avengers/Star Wars force addition.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-18 02:55pm

So, I'm wondering how certain disastrous battles would go if the heroes were able to call in some outside support from another Disney franchise. :)

Scenario 1: Cap's team from Winter Soldier (Captain America, Falcon, Black Widow, Nick Fury, and Maria Hill IIRC) join Windu's team to arrest Palpatine. They have the same weaponry as in the final battle of Winter Soldier.

Scenario 2: The Avengers team from the first film (Iron Man, Captain America, Hulk, Thor, Black Widow, and Hawkeye) join the Rebels infiltrating Scariff in Rogue One. Their objectives are to retrieve the plans and escape with minimal Rebel casualties. Killing or capturing Vader (if he shows up before they can leave) is a bonus.

Scenario 3: The post-Age of Ultron Avengers team (Cap, Iron Man, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Scarlett Witch, War Machine, Vision, and Falcon) joins the Jedi Order in the Arena at Geonosis. Their goals are to capture or kill Dooku and minimize Jedi/Clone casualties.

Scenario 4: Windu's Jedi from Geonosis join the Wakandan defenders, along with Padme, Obi-wan, Anakin, C3PO, and R2D2. Yoda will arrive with Thor*, Groot, and Rocket mid-way through the battle, but with no Clone army.

In all scenarios, the reinforcing troops are given a basic briefing on the situation and their opponents' capabilities before the battle starts.

*Edit: I just love the visual of Yoda perched on Thor's shoulder alongside Rocket as they Bifrost in.
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Re: Avengers/Star Wars force addition.

Post by Solauren » 2018-08-18 03:26pm

Scenario 1 - Palpatine force hurls the non-Jedi into the Jedi, giving him an advantage.
The non-Jedi end up dead pretty fast. Falcons wings end up studied by the Empire, and now we get flying Stormtroopers.

Scenario 2 -
Let's see.... everyone but Iron Man can wear Imperial uniforms without standing out.
Unless they fake that Iron Man is a new model of droid.

In this case, Iron Man could get the plans up to the transmission tower far faster then anyone else can.
However, getting off the planet is not likely to occur. Therefore, they die when the Death Star blows up the planet.

Scenario 3 -
This team actually has a chance of capturing Dooku before he escapes the arena.
All vision would have to do is Phase, and then push Dooku into a wall to trap him there.
Vision, Iron Man, War Machine, and Scarlet Witch could move down battle droids without a problem.
Falcon as well, depending on his weapons. Black Wood and Hawkeye don't really make a difference in the battle.

Scenario 4 -
You just added 200 Jedi, of all skill levels, to the battle. Odds are, we have less Wakandan deaths.
If Windu, Kenobi, Skywalker and/or Yoda manage to get near vision, they might be able help Scarlet Witch, and slow down Thanos to the point
when Thor arrives, Thanos doesn't have the Soul Stone yet.
And in this scenario, as Thanos is clearly a threat to Padme, I can see Anakin trying to take Thanos head off, and probably succeeding.
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Re: Avengers/Star Wars force addition.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-18 03:38pm

Solauren wrote:
2018-08-18 03:26pm
Scenario 1 - Palpatine force hurls the non-Jedi into the Jedi, giving him an advantage.
The non-Jedi end up dead pretty fast. Falcons wings end up studied by the Empire, and now we get flying Stormtroopers.
The question is whether Palpatine can effectively use TK while simultaneously fending off multiple Jedi. Probably (he did use TK in his duel with Maul and Savage in The Clone Wars, and in his duel with Yoda in the Senate), but he doesn't use much TK in this fight, for whatever reason. If he's focused entirely on Windu, someone else might be able to get a lucky shot in.

The other possibility is that Cap (or one of the others, particularly Black Widow) could talk down Anakin and keep him from doing something stupid. Though that would likely only work if Cap had some sort of personal connection to Anakin.

I'm also kind of curious as to how well Cap's shield would hold up to a light saber strike.
Scenario 2 -
Let's see.... everyone but Iron Man can wear Imperial uniforms without standing out.
Unless they fake that Iron Man is a new model of droid.
Yeah, this is pre-nanobot armor you can hid under your clothes Tony, isn't it? Well, I suppose they could keep him at the ship as a reserve, who can then pitch in if they get caught.
In this case, Iron Man could get the plans up to the transmission tower far faster then anyone else can.
However, getting off the planet is not likely to occur. Therefore, they die when the Death Star blows up the planet.
If they can get the plans up to the tower fast enough, and transmit them quickly enough, its just possible they could fly out when the Rebels manage to open the shield.

How do you think they'd fair against Vader, by the way?
Scenario 3 -
This team actually has a chance of capturing Dooku before he escapes the arena.
All vision would have to do is Phase, and then push Dooku into a wall to trap him there.
Vision, Iron Man, War Machine, and Scarlet Witch could move down battle droids without a problem.
Falcon as well, depending on his weapons. Black Wood and Hawkeye don't really make a difference in the battle.
That's about right, I think.
Scenario 4 -
You just added 200 Jedi, of all skill levels, to the battle. Odds are, we have less Wakandan deaths.
If Windu, Kenobi, Skywalker and/or Yoda manage to get near vision, they might be able help Scarlet Witch, and slow down Thanos to the point
when Thor arrives, Thanos doesn't have the Soul Stone yet.
And in this scenario, as Thanos is clearly a threat to Padme, I can see Anakin trying to take Thanos head off, and probably succeeding.
Put even a couple of top-level Jedi on bodyguard duty near Vision (or have one of them sense that the main attack is a decoy) and its likely Thanos's minions never get close to Vision and never disrupt the removal of the Mind Stone (Vision did not have the Soul Stone- that was the one Thanos murdered Gamora for). And if they slowed him up long enough, then maybe Thor's final attack on him would go down differently and be more successful- who knows?

I very much doubt a light saber could take Thanos's head, though. The whole Iron Man arsenal barely scratched him. Whatever his hide is made of, its pretty tough. Maybe put a saber through his eye? But I doubt Anakin or anyone else could get close enough.

Maybe several Jedi working together could immobilize him with TK and pull the Gauntlet off?
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.

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Re: Avengers/Star Wars force addition.

Post by Solauren » 2018-08-20 06:33pm

Avengers (Move 1) vs Vader, since you asked.

Odds are, Hawkeye and Black Widow are dead, and very quickly. They're just smucks with powerful friends.
Captain America would do okay for a bit. I'm going to credi this shield with being able to stand up to a lightsaber.
however, the second Vader decides he's out of the fight, all he has to do is crush Captain America's throat.

That leaves Iron Man, Hulk, and Thor.

In a pure physical fight, Hulk is going to paste Vader. However, Vader isn't stupid. He's going to use the Force to fight the Hulk. If Vader can use a Mind Trick to affect the Hulk and turn him back to Banner, Banner is dead. Vader probably won't figure that out, however. The question is, can a lightsaber cut the Hulk? Since we've seen lightsabers carve through the armor of ships designed to take sustained engagements with weapons in the 200 Gigaton range, I'm going to assume yes. Problem with that, is Hulk is fast. Hulk vs Vader is a toss up really.

Iron Man vs Vader....
Vader has encountered people in similar suits before. (i.e Manadlorians). Once he senses Iron Man is a person, he can stop him like any other man.

That leaves Thor.
I'm assuming the Mjnoir can stand up to a Lightsaber.
As Thor is Asgardian, he's probably one of the toughest lifeforms going. Unless her's vulnerable to the Force, Thor can just call down lightning, and that's the end of Vader.
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Re: Avengers/Star Wars force addition.

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-08-20 06:39pm

The question with Thor calling down lightning is whether he'll resort to that. It may well be that Vader decides to close and keep him busy enough that he can't step back and stick his hammer in the air, the usual move he uses when he does that.

Iron Man is mostly just a matter of grabbing him with the Force and either throwing him or redirecting him. The armour probably can't stand up to a lightsaber, either.
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Re: Avengers/Star Wars force addition.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-20 06:48pm

The question with Iron Man is whether Vader will/can do that (especially if he's simultaneously defending against attacks from the others) before Tony plasters everything within twenty meters of Vader's position with anti-tank missiles. Tony can lay down a LOT of ordinance with a high degree of accuracy- possibly enough to kill or at least seriously weaken Vader.

On the other hand, if he uses one of his beams, its getting bounced right back at him by Vader (or at one of his friends).

Vader can probably take any one of the first film Avengers one on one if he has a good enough idea of what he's dealing with to take them seriously and not hold back (and the pure human ones he can take pretty reliably/easily). But if they all rush him at once- what's Vader's high-end for defending against multiple major opponents simultaneously? I can think of scenarios where he held off or slaughtered a group of ordinary soldiers (Rogue One, for a start) or low-end Jedi, or where he held off or outright bested one or two fairly capable opponents, but I can't think of any scenarios off the top of my head where he simultaneously defended against three or four high-end combatants at once. I'd rate Hulk and Thor at least as potential Jedi Council-level opponents, and Tony only slightly below that, while Cap, Widow, and Hawkeye would be like padawans or good bounty hunters. Can Vader lethally TK Tony while also blocking swings from the Hammer, and trying to keep from getting run over by Hulk?
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Re: Avengers/Star Wars force addition.

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-08-20 06:52pm

I'm pretty sure there was at least one scene in the Vader comics of recent issue that he engaged a whole group of Jedi in hiding, and won.

If I can dig it up the next time I go to the bookstore, I'll see if I can share it.
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Re: Avengers/Star Wars force addition.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-20 06:57pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-08-20 06:52pm
I'm pretty sure there was at least one scene in the Vader comics of recent issue that he engaged a whole group of Jedi in hiding, and won.

If I can dig it up the next time I go to the bookstore, I'll see if I can share it.
Cool.

Although it matters a lot who those Jedi were. There is a hell of a range in Jedi abilities from random padawans and that Council guy who got casually gunned down by Jango Fett at Geonosis, all the way up to the likes of Mace Windu, Yoda, and Luke Skywalker.

In the novel Dark Lord (now sadly non-canon, and one of the few things I am genuinely sorry to lose from the old EU), Vader also fought a group of Jedi- but they were mostly mediocre at best (some of them only padawans IIRC), and only maybe one or two of them were portrayed as fighters of any real skill or power by Jedi standards. And none of them were top-tier (I would define "top tire" as being anything from Kenobi or Rebels Ashoka-level up to Palpatine/Yoda/Windu/Snoke/Master Luke).
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

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Re: Avengers/Star Wars force addition.

Post by Tribble » 2018-08-20 10:54pm

While I can see Vader desiring one-on-one fights, given that he knows the general capabilties of the Avengers I'm not so certain he'd be willing to take them all at once. He might just the Devastator and blow the ship up, or perhaps get into a tie-fighter for some strafiing. At the very least I imagine he'd try and thin out their numbers and/or seperate them first before directly engaging.
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Re: Avengers/Star Wars force addition.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-21 01:11pm

That would probably be the smart way to play it, yes. And OT-era Vader generally isn't reckless, unlike early/pre-Mustafar Vader. He's probably the most cold and deliberate in his actions of any of the major Dark Side characters.

Of course, its possible that their numbers might already have been thinned by the battle on Scariff.
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"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

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Re: Avengers/Star Wars force addition.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-21 01:53pm

Of course, if Vader encountered them in the same circumstances as his appearance in Rogue One, then they'd be aboard a Rebel cruiser, fighting in fairly close quarters, and simply blowing them up might not be seen as an option, if Vader wants to verify that he's recovered the plans in person. But that environment might actually help Vader. He can survive for a while in a vacuum as long as his suit's intact. The Avengers can't (well, not all of them- Thor seemed to be able to survive vacuum for a little while in Infinity War, and I'm iffy on Hulk and on Tony's suit). Neither can the infantry around them. Which means they'll have to pull their punches to avoid causing a hull breach. I'm also not sure whether Thor's hammer can summon lightning outside an atmosphere. Forcing them to fight a primarily melee battle in close quarters could actually give Vader the win, especially if they can only come at him one or two at a time (on the other hand, Widow, Cap, and Hawkeye could be somewhat useful here by making mincemeat of the accompanying Stormtroopers/getting the plans out, and there would be no need for the red shirts to make their heroic last stand in the hallway- Thor, Hulk, or Tony could all individually hold Vader long enough to get the plans out, I think.

Edit: Actually, scratch that. If Banner goes all "HULK SMASH!" inside a spaceship, everybody's fucked. :lol:
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Re: Avengers/Star Wars force addition.

Post by NeoGoomba » 2018-08-24 12:22pm

MCU Hulk is pretty easy to counter if you have TK. Just lift him up in the air so his arms or legs cannot find purchase and he's completely out of the fight. Vader could probably hold Hulk up like that and deal with the rest of the Avengers at the same time - except Thor, who will just fucking obliterate Vader.
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Re: Avengers/Star Wars force addition.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-24 01:22pm

NeoGoomba wrote:
2018-08-24 12:22pm
MCU Hulk is pretty easy to counter if you have TK. Just lift him up in the air so his arms or legs cannot find purchase and he's completely out of the fight. Vader could probably hold Hulk up like that and deal with the rest of the Avengers at the same time - except Thor, who will just fucking obliterate Vader.
I don't know- the scenario is first Avengers Thor, not Infinity War survived the full force of a sun Stormbreaker-wielding Thor.

I think there's at least a chance that Vader could take any one of his opponents. Its the fact that he'll potentially have to deal with all six at once (and particularly the three heavy hitters at once) that makes it such long odds.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.

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