Infinity War What if... (IW Spoilers)

FAN: Discuss various fictional worlds that don't qualify for SF.

Moderator: Steve

Post Reply
User avatar
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10371
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England

Infinity War What if... (IW Spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-06-22 06:41am

TRR and I talking about Cap in the other thread made me think: What if.. Civil War never happened? How would Infinity War go if there was still a flully fledged united Avengers team available from the get go?

Say, I don't know, Age Of Ultron happened how the original film showed it with the Avengers taking great care with civilian casualties, Zemo's family isn't killed and Steve apprehends Rumlow a little quicker and the bomb isn't set off, so the accords don't happen or are water down enough not to be an issue.

For simplicities' sake Kilmonger's plan doesn't get off the ground and BP doesn't happen and Tony is semi-retired but still kept up making suits so he's still go the Mark L nanomachine one.

So We have the full New Avengers team (Captain America, Black Widow, Warmachine, Falcon, Scarlet Witch and The Vision) ready to go, Spider-man and Ant-man are still small fry. Prince T'Challa is Black Panter but unknown to the world.

Doctor Strange, Thor: Ragnarok and Infinity War all happen the same up until Strange portals Bruce to meet Tony in the park.

How does Infinity War go then?
To the brave passengers and crew of the Kobayashi Maru... sucks to be you - Peter David

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 14404
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: Infinity War What if... (IW Spoilers)

Post by Gandalf » 2018-06-22 08:23am

I imagine it still goes down the same, but that they all die near each other as opposed to apart.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
PREDATOR490
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1687
Joined: 2006-03-13 08:04am
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Infinity War What if... (IW Spoilers)

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2018-06-22 10:41am

Without Civil War happening America and the Avengers do not know about Wakanda and it's super tech. They will not have the knowledge or ability to take Vision to Wakanda to get the Stone removed. Black Panther has no reason to interact with any of the Avengers so he would have no involvement or presence.

Without Civil War America and co. will not be on the run but that does not mean they will be actually AROUND to get involved fast enough. Spiderman manages to get in on the initial action because he is mobile AND conveniently within the area. The others all have varying amounts of prep time to get to the fight with Strange and Iron Man. That confrontation is quick enough that I do not see all of the Avengers getting to the fight fast enough to intervene unless they are all very conveniently nearby and within reach of their equipment.

Tony will call up the Avengers before he walks into the Sanctum...
The real exposition dump happens in the Sanctum for Tony to really get some semblance of the severity of what is coming from Banner, Strange and Wong. For the most part Banner is being fairly bad at being coherent enough to convey much and only seems to press the point of calling up the Avengers until after the dump. By the time that point comes up, the alien ship is minutes away from kicking off the attempt to get the Time Stone from Strange.

Assuming that Banner convinces Tony to make the call on the way, the time from Banner arriving in the Park to the alien ship showdown at the Sanctum cannot reasonably be more than an hour or two. That might be enough time to get the nearest Avengers to show up but who that is would ultimately be up to writers fiat and treading the line of being really convenient.

I imagine the initial fight will play out mostly the same with Iron Man, Strange and Wong. The only hazy element would be other Avengers showing up.

If other Avengers show up

Spiderman - Without Civil War, Tony has no idea who Spiderman is and will not have made that super suit for him. Spiderman has no way to get on the ship without that suit and would potentially die in the attempt. Interestingly, without Spiderman, Doctor Strange and Iron Man have a high chance of dying on the alien spaceship.

A) Tony has the idea to blast TK alien into space and Strange gets sucked out
B) Tony does not have the idea to blast TK alien into space and tries to take him on alone

America - Is not going to do very well against an alien that use telekinesis to throw him around like a ragdoll or turn him into a pin cushion. He may do better against the Tanky alien. America has no way to get on the Alien spaceship without help.

Widow - Is really not going to do well against either alien and is effectively useless. Widow has no way to get on the alien spaceship

Scarlett Witch - Would severely alter the fight and could reasonably wipe the floor with both aliens if she is allowed to let loose with her abilities. Witch has no way to get on the alien spaceship although, with her present the need to get on it becomes unlikely.

Vision - Assuming Vision does not get conveniently disabled, he can reasonably do some hefty damage.
This would actually be interesting since you have both Infinity Stones in play within close proximity.
All four aliens would logically converge on the same area leading to two simultaneous attacks or one giant attack with four aliens vs. Strange, Wong, Iron Man, Spiderman, Vision and likely Scarlet Witch. As far as a the best ensemble goes, that fight could end up making the battle a real mess ending in the aliens getting both Infinity Stones or getting killed / beaten.

Vision can get on the Alien spaceship - Although that may not be a good thing. That essentially means the Mind Stone AND Time Stone are on a trip to Thanos on Titan. I would hope Vision AND Strange would bitch slap Tony until he turned the ship around because of how insanely risky going to Thanos is with two of the objects he is looking for to decimate the universe. The Avengers left behind will have no ability to provide assistance and the fate of the universe rests entirely on the battle with Thanos on Titan.

Falcon - Can be a bit of a pain in the ass to the aliens but the Tank Alien and TK Alien can reasonably kill him as an afterthought unless he is careful.
He can reasonably get on the spaceship.

War Machine - Should be able to put up a reasonably fight against the Tank and TK alien and can get on the spaceship.


If they the initial battle succeeds in keeping Strange Earth bound - The Avengers eventually assemble and wait for Thanos or the Aliens to come knocking. Without Wakanda, the next logical location would be the Avengers facility or the Stark Tower.
I would imagine without Civil War AND all the Avengers showing up. Military assistance would be more likely to be provided from Ross etc. even without Ross. New York should already be in a bit of a frenzy after the mayhem that occurred and Fury / Hill can arrive on scene with whatever is left of the magic SHIELD toolbox.
( In an alternate reality where AGENTS OF SHIELD actually exists in the same universe, this might actually get Coulson and Co. to show up bringing in Daisy "Destroyer of Worlds" Johnson and General Gravitonium. Although the latter could end up causing a different kind of mess as the S5 plot of Agents of Shield comes into play )

The downside of that...
If the alien squad gets away, they are going to regroup and launch a full assault on the assembled Avengers at the Stark Tower or the Avengers facility. Without a shield, the monster swarm is going to run riot over New York and the death toll would be horrific.
Thanos is going to arrive on Titan, notice that his minions have not come back and logically teleport to New York during the mayhem. It is possible the fight on Earth with the Avengers will be over with Thanos before Thor can even arrive to do anything.
The Guardians of the Galaxy are going to die taking on Thanos alone on Titan or miss him and get left clueless. If they delay him enough, Thor may be on Earth when Thanos arrives leading to the best possible chance of the Avengers winning.

Even with ALL of the Avengers, the only ones that seem to have any chance of actually Killing or hurting Thanos are Vision, Strange and Thor.

Without Locust, they cannot mindfuck Thanos to get the glove off of him - Maybe Scarlet Witch can do it but that is really iffy.
Vision - Can he hit Thanos hard enough with the mind stone beam to kill him ?
Strange - Can the Time Stone be used in an offensive manner against Thanos ?
Thor - If he is present, will he actually go for the killshot quick enough ? It is already implied at the start of the movie that Thor was beaten by Thanos. Thanos has acquired more stones by the time he arrives on Earth. Thor's new hammer can apparently kill Thanos but we only saw Thor take a last moment surprise shot at him with it. If Thanos sees Thor coming and has the jacked up Infinity Gauntlet, he may be able to obliterate Thor before he can take a shot with the hammer.

The rest of the Avengers can only really annoy and delay Thanos until he gives up in frustration or loses his shit completely and uses the gauntlet to really hurt them.
I.E Bring down the moon or the Sun on New York.

User avatar
NeoGoomba
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3153
Joined: 2002-12-22 11:35am
Location: Upstate New York

Re: Infinity War What if... (IW Spoilers)

Post by NeoGoomba » 2018-06-22 10:48am

If they are united, the only thing I can say with certainty is that the Black Order goed down hard in New York. Vision, not getting blindsided, becomes a game-changer for anyone not Thanos. The big evil-Hulk gets stomped by Vision while Cap and the others drop Nora Durst and Space Baraka.

This means Dr. Strange and the Time Stone are kept far from Thanos, but it also changes pretty much all of the 14 million outcomes Strange examines. It does nothing to stop Thanos from getting the Power, Space, Soul, and Reality stones, and just the four of those, coupled with his own abilities, are pretty much enough for him to plow through everything and everyone.

Strange may find someway to use the Eye of Agamotto to depower Thanos or some other time fuckery, but that is it. Once Thanos arrives on Earth, it's still lights out for anyone that gets in his way. He'll just drop the fucking moon on them.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know...tomorrow."
-Agent Kay

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14563
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Infinity War What if... (IW Spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-06-22 01:50pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-06-22 08:23am
I imagine it still goes down the same, but that they all die near each other as opposed to apart.
I don't know. For all that Strange says that their chance of beating Thanos is millions to one, there are at least two points in the film where the heroes appear to come within a hair's breadth of beating him. First, when they nearly get the gauntlet off him on his home planet, before Quill loses it. And secondly, post-Thanos getting all the stones, when Thor lands a surprise hit on him with Stormbreaker. Thanos appears badly injured and notes before using the stones to wipe out half the universe/escape that Thor should have aimed for the head, implying that had he done so, Thanos would have perished.

Considering that, a united Avengers team might have been able to bring him down, especially if they joined forces with Strange. I also feel like Ant Man's presence would have helped a lot, given the versatility and stealth abilities of his powers for potentially getting past Thanos's defenses.

There would have been no Guardians, though, and no Stormbreaker. Unless some of the Avengers end up in space anyway, in which case the team still gets split up.

But if you assume all Avengers plus Strange vs. Thanos, I think they'd probably take it.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10371
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England

Re: Infinity War What if... (IW Spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-06-22 02:16pm

The Guardian's, Thor's and Thanos' storylines would still be proceeding along the lines as the Canon film's unabated at least until Quill's team reach Titan, Thanos reaches Titan, and Thor forges Stormbreaker respectively.

Strange's 14,000,604 to one change was based on the specific situation they were in though at that moment though.

Depending on the team's response time and effective, Strange may not be kidnapped at all, or all Thanos' teams might team up on them at once, leading to the Wakanda battle happening as NY Mk II instead. I have to think Corvus and Proxima are going to have a harder time sneaking onto an Avengers base that shanking Vision on a random Edinburgh street.
To the brave passengers and crew of the Kobayashi Maru... sucks to be you - Peter David

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14563
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Infinity War What if... (IW Spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-06-22 02:25pm

If the Avengers were united, I figured Thor would be on Earth, but you're right. Thor was off Earth for reasons unrelated to the team break-up.

I think having neither Mantis (from the Titan battle) or Thor with Stormbreaker (from the Wakanda battle) might make up for any advantage gained from having Cap and his compatriots on-hand, though.

My big question remains: Is Antman present in this scenario?
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10371
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England

Re: Infinity War What if... (IW Spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-06-22 02:43pm

AntMan is not a member of the New Avengers and won't initially be present. Falcon knows him though, so if you think they last long enough to go on a recruitment drive he might be available as reinforcements (along with Wasp)...
To the brave passengers and crew of the Kobayashi Maru... sucks to be you - Peter David

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14563
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Infinity War What if... (IW Spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-06-22 02:48pm

Ant Man did join in during Civil War, so he has some ties to the Avengers and has worked with them before. IIRC, the reason given on-screen for his absence had to do with the fallout of Civil War, so its plausible that in a world where the Avengers stayed united, Ant Man would join in.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
PREDATOR490
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1687
Joined: 2006-03-13 08:04am
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Infinity War What if... (IW Spoilers)

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2018-06-22 07:25pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-06-22 02:48pm
Ant Man did join in during Civil War, so he has some ties to the Avengers and has worked with them before. IIRC, the reason given on-screen for his absence had to do with the fallout of Civil War, so its plausible that in a world where the Avengers stayed united, Ant Man would join in.
The opposite is likely.

Ant Man was brought in specifically by Falcon because they were trying to bring everyone they could to the fight including completely untested individuals. Without Civil War, no reason exists to bring in ANT MAN let alone make him a full AVENGER. Ant Man's abilities are unknown to everyone except a brief interaction with Falcon which might be a good audition but hardly qualifies him for being the first number you dial when someone like Thanos or his minions are bearing down on you.
The same is equally true for Spiderman with the exception that his abilities and conveniently fast reaction time allowed him to get into the fight. Without Civil War, Spiderman is unknown to everyone except maybe Stark who has no reason to interact with Spiderman. You might argue that Homecoming could have Iron Man stepping in to clean up the mess but that situation is largely pushed by Spiderman getting involved with Stark in Civil War.

Spiderman MAY still take it upon himself to swing into the fight at the Sanctum. Without that super suit, Spiderman will die in the fall back to Earth as the ship leaves the atmosphere unless helped by one of the other flying Avengers.

Guardians + Mantis = They are 100% not going to be on Earth. They did not even go to Earth in the actual Infinity War and have no reason to do so. The only place they are going to be is Titan. What happens to them entirely depends on the Avenger situation on Earth.

A) If Spiderman does not get onboard then Stark could be left fighting TK alien alone. Iron Man is not at his best fighting against the TK guy and has a good chance of losing. Even if Iron Man comes up with the idea to blast the guy into space with a cheap shot, that action would have killed Strange without Spiderman saving him.
Best case scenario is Iron Man wins and ends up with Strange on Titan with the Guardians which plays out more or less exactly the same as it did in the movie.
Worst Case 1: Iron Man dies, Strange gets tortured to give up the stone and TK alien hands it over to Thanos
Worst Case 2: Iron Man fucks up, Strange gets blasted out into space with TK alien causing the Time Stone to be floating in the middle of nowhere until Thanos comes and picks it up with minimal effort

B) If another Avenger capable of getting on the ship comes along then the fight with the TK alien might go better or worse depending on who it is but the end result in Titan will not change much either except in one case.

War Machine is basically early Iron Man covered in guns. Tony Stark barely made Thanos bleed after dumping everything he could into it and he has the more "advanced" suit. Unless Thanos is actually vulnerable to guns and bullets, War Machine's only benefit is if he can sufficiently work with Stark to tag team Thanos. That said, even if they manage that, the only play they have is still trying to pry the glove of Thanos which will still fail because Starlord fucks it up.

Falcon cannot really bring anything new to the fight and has a high chance of being killed trying.

Vision on the ship is a massive game changer.
If Vision ends up on that ship, then both Infinity Stones are on a path to Titan. I would expect Strange to instantly Veto any attempt to take both of the stones to Titan because of how insanely dangerous it is.
If they do, then its a fight in New York against all of the assembled Avengers, possibly including Ant Man and the entire kitchen sink because its THAT kind of fight. Unfortunately, the Guardians are going to die fighting Thanos on Titan unless he just shrugs and teleports away because they are not worth the time.

If for some insane reason Tony manages to swing Strange into going to Titan with Vision onboard... the chances are completely up in the air on how that turns out.
The best hope is that Vision can one shot Thanos or cut his arm off otherwise, the fight plays out the same except Thanos gets both Stones on the spot.
The outside possibility is that with Vision on the ship, the alien minions will leave Earth in pursuit causing a showdown between Thanos + 3 minions vs. Vision, Iron Man, Strange, Spiderman and the Guardians.
Sneaking up on Vision may not be possible for the minions but that minion also had the ability to stop and redirect Vision's beam so if that guy enters the fight then Vision's death beams could cause friendly fire or simply be used against him.

Ultimately, without the Avengers going to Titan, the Guardians die or get bypassed completely.

As for Earth, the best chance of a victory comes from:
Thor - If he goes for the kill shot quick enough
Vision - If his beam can hurt Thanos AND he does not get gimped by the minions
Strange - If he can actually use the Time Stone offensively or see an outcome that lets them win the fight against Thanos. In theory, telling Thor to AIM FOR THE FUCKING HEAD or making sure Vision gets a clean shot

The rest of the Avengers are going to be playing clean up and interference.

That said, the stones Thanos have are already powerful enough to let him bring down a moon, alter reality and teleport wherever he likes. Thanos could hold Earth ransom by threatening to drop the planets in the system onto Earth until they give him the Stones. If they dont, he can pick up them up from the bodies.

Post Reply