Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-06-22 02:51pm

Yeah, you kind of have to treat the MCU as an arc-based TV series almost, not as separate films.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-06-22 03:14pm

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
2018-06-22 02:47pm
In part, the success of the sequel depends on how both Ant-Man and the Wasp and more significantly Captain Marvel fare, with the latter expected to be a game-changer for the heroes.

Well they're prequels and stand-alones, so not that big a part I guess? Just establishing who Carol is and where she's been for 20 years is the big hurdle and then integrating her into the cast.

Still given the added superheroine focus, I really hope they don't suck. And Captain Marvel especial since she's implied to be a big deal in stopping Thanos. Fan-boys are already screamning how terrible and mary-sue-ish she is and how she's going to solve everything with a wave of her hand, or else she'll be a horrible fascist that apparently her comicbook character is in Civil War II (ironically Iron Man suffered the same image problem because of Civil War I when his first movie came out.)

I will be very surprised if Marvel drop the ball with her at this point though.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-06-22 03:22pm

Anyone whining about how she's a "Mary Sue" (Good God, I have grown to loath that term) before the character has even been introduced or had a single minute of screen time are doing it simply because she's a female superhero getting her own film, and they will do that regardless of how she is depicted, because her being a woman with power and being given a leading role is a perceived threat to the masculinity of these fragile little limp-dicks.

If people want to make a rational criticism of the character, they need to wait until there's actually something to criticize other than "She's a female lead with superpowers".

Mind you, I'm a bit bitter that the first female lead in an MCU film isn't Black Widow. She's been around since Iron Man II, been an Avenger since the first Avengers film, and deserved this honor.

Edit: As to her portrayal in the comics, I honestly neither known nor care much one way or the other. The MCU is its own thing, and ought to be taken on its own terms, for better or worse. So the comics version shouldn't really effect perception of the character.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-06-23 06:55pm

NeoGoomba wrote:
2018-05-16 08:10am
Of the Avengers left, if they go down that route of self-sacrifice via the Gauntlet, Thor is the most likely to survive with Cap being probably the "best" person to wield it.

Or a rebuilt Vision, now that his puke color scheme is gone.
Needing to sacrifice someone to undo what Thanos did would fit thematically with the first film in some ways, for example Thanos needing to sacrifice Gamora to get the Soul Stone.

But if that's the way they go, its going to be Tony, ten to one.

Tony is the one who's been around the longest in the MCU. From a practical perspective, he's one of the actors who's more likely to be leaving sooner rather than later, and from a narrative perspective, his death would probably have the biggest impact on the audience, because in a sense, Tony is the MCU. He's where it all began, with Iron Man back in 2008.

It also fits with Tony's arc- Tony is a man with a lot of regret, a lot of self-doubt, who is constantly trying to atone for his past mistakes. The question of Tony sacrificing himself to save Earth came up in the first Avengers film, though it was averted there. Tony is also in some ways a counterpart to Thanos, as I mentioned previously- they are both arrogant men with a tendency to obsessiveness, and to dealing with past failures by latching onto a particular solution and pursuing it without sufficient thought to the consequences or alternatives. The difference being that Tony has more people he cares about, and more willingness to sacrifice himself, not just others. Considering all of that, in some ways, it would make a lot of sense for Tony to be the one, if someone has to die to undo what Thanos did.

My main problem with this is that someone sacrificing themselves to undo what Thanos did would imply that Cap was wrong and Thanos was right- that we should "trade lives" for the greater good. The difference though, if it was handled properly, would be that Tony would be trading his life willingly, entirely of his own choice and by his own hand, to save others.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Q99 » 2018-06-24 04:55am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-06-22 03:22pm
Mind you, I'm a bit bitter that the first female lead in an MCU film isn't Black Widow. She's been around since Iron Man II, been an Avenger since the first Avengers film, and deserved this honor.
There was a great window when I think that'd have been super-popular but at the time, well, the Marvel execs were a bit sexist on the issue.

Edit: As to her portrayal in the comics, I honestly neither known nor care much one way or the other. The MCU is its own thing, and ought to be taken on its own terms, for better or worse. So the comics version shouldn't really effect perception of the character.
Captain Marvel / Carol Danvers had some great comics recently, the first ones after she had the outfit change. Then an iffy event (in the 'strained excuse for conflict between heroes' sense where everyone was more hardline than they should be, but not as bad as Civil War 1. Carol's stance was 'let's pre-arrest anyone the precog says since the accuracy is so high and it's always for pretty big stuff.' CW1 was 'Let's throw every super, active hero or no, into a space gulag if they don't sign up.' ) and some mediocre comics since (just in the boring sense).

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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Kojiro » 2018-06-24 08:17am

Q99 wrote:
2018-06-24 04:55am
There was a great window when I think that'd have been super-popular but at the time, well, the Marvel execs were a bit sexist on the issue.
I'd say it's more likely they simply don't have faith in a film based around non powered characters. It's not like Hawkeye has his own movie (or even made it into Infinity War for that matter). People have always questioned the role of Hawkeye and Widow on the Avengers team due to their lack of powers. After all, the movies are partly spectacle and Widow can't really provide that. You could put it in the movie but then you'd be overshadowing Widow in her own film.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-06-24 02:40pm

Kojiro wrote:
2018-06-24 08:17am
Q99 wrote:
2018-06-24 04:55am
There was a great window when I think that'd have been super-popular but at the time, well, the Marvel execs were a bit sexist on the issue.
I'd say it's more likely they simply don't have faith in a film based around non powered characters. It's not like Hawkeye has his own movie (or even made it into Infinity War for that matter). People have always questioned the role of Hawkeye and Widow on the Avengers team due to their lack of powers. After all, the movies are partly spectacle and Widow can't really provide that. You could put it in the movie but then you'd be overshadowing Widow in her own film.
Either reason is pretty stupid. There's plenty of scope for spectacle even without powers for Hawkeye or Black Widow, as proven by every scene they have in any movie they're in.

i mean take Cap and Winter Soldier out of Winter Soldier and you've got a good basis for a BW movie. Or go full James Bond movie in Marvel.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2018-06-24 04:28pm

Without AVENGERs, Black Widow and Hawkeye are the kinda folks that should logically be running with Coulson and SHIELD if they actually shared the same universe.

Both of them are supposed to be on the Agent / Spy spectrum which, with their publicity should have them literally burned to a crisp. Anyone with a camera and internet connection is going to ID them fairly easily.

It is a shame that Black Widow is meant to be the super-spy yet she barely gets to do anything related to this. At best she has a high degree of melee fighting and maybe some smarts which makes her heavily under developed when she only runs around with the AVENGERS. In a better universe ( Inside and out), Black Widow and Hawkeye would transition to AGENTS OF SHIELD so they could thrive in the spy business against opponents that don't immediately require an AVENGER to show up, however, if one was required... Widow or Hawkeye can call in for that help.

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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Gaidin » 2018-06-24 07:13pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-06-24 02:40pm
Either reason is pretty stupid. There's plenty of scope for spectacle even without powers for Hawkeye or Black Widow, as proven by every scene they have in any movie they're in.

i mean take Cap and Winter Soldier out of Winter Soldier and you've got a good basis for a BW movie. Or go full James Bond movie in Marvel.
I mean really. This keeps showing up everywhere for people that want a bit of backstory:

Image

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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-06-24 08:21pm

I think this has it covered! :mrgreen: But movie centred around Black Widow/Hawkeye has to be a spy movie- though if done well it might be better to have them in AoS since while they may be Avengers, they're definitely bottom-tier.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Lost Soal » 2018-06-25 07:49am

yes of course, she's so bottom tier that Widow was beating the Children Of Thanos who had just kicked Wanda and Visions ass.
Clearly she's just there out of friendship.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-06-25 03:23pm

Q99 wrote:
2018-06-24 04:55am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-06-22 03:22pm
Mind you, I'm a bit bitter that the first female lead in an MCU film isn't Black Widow. She's been around since Iron Man II, been an Avenger since the first Avengers film, and deserved this honor.
There was a great window when I think that'd have been super-popular but at the time, well, the Marvel execs were a bit sexist on the issue.
Indeed.

The MCU films started coming out in 2018. So that's a decade and, what, eighteen films? Nineteen, once Ant Man and Wasp comes out. Before we get to a film with a female lead. Hell, it took them sixteen films before they got one without a straight white male lead of any sort. And its only because of Thor that that's not an unbroken streak of sixteen films with a straight white American male lead. Diversity, thy name is not Marvel (though in fairness, the TV shows have a much better record).

And they can't even fall back on the excuse, flimsy though it is, that all their major comics characters are straight white men, because a) that can be changed (see Nick Fury for a very successful example), and b) as you pointed out, they had a reasonably popular and high-profile female lead ready to go in Black Widow. Right after Avengers, they should have announced the Black Widow film, and had it come out some time around Avengers II or Civil War. They dropped the ball.

For that matter, I also still feel that Gamora could have made a fine main protagonist for the GotG films.
Captain Marvel / Carol Danvers had some great comics recently, the first ones after she had the outfit change. Then an iffy event (in the 'strained excuse for conflict between heroes' sense where everyone was more hardline than they should be, but not as bad as Civil War 1. Carol's stance was 'let's pre-arrest anyone the precog says since the accuracy is so high and it's always for pretty big stuff.' CW1 was 'Let's throw every super, active hero or no, into a space gulag if they don't sign up.' ) and some mediocre comics since (just in the boring sense).
Still can't say I like the idea of arresting people for things they haven't done yet based on one person's word. I can see why that would piss people off. But again, comics and movies are two separate universes.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Q99 » 2018-06-26 04:26am

They let DC beat them to the punch hard with WW despite having a multi-year advantage.
The Romulan Republic wrote: Still can't say I like the idea of arresting people for things they haven't done yet based on one person's word. I can see why that would piss people off. But again, comics and movies are two separate universes.
They did do some brain scan thing to confirm Ulysses was really having the visions.

The key phrases should be 'person of interest', debriefing, and that sort of thing. Charges and arrest only happening if someone already has taken steps/demonstrates clear intent, otherwise it's just, pick 'em up, interview them, drop them off far from the expected disaster site. Prevention rather than criminal.

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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-06-26 04:53am

Q99 wrote:
2018-06-26 04:26am
They let DC beat them to the punch hard with WW despite having a multi-year advantage.
To be fair, Wonder Woman is about the safest you can get with a superheroine movie.

Most of Marvel's best female characters are either team related or female knock off of male characters. (She-Hulk etc). Black Widow and Captain Marvel (by dint of her male version being obscure enough to ignore) were really their best options.

Still there's very little excuse not to have done Black Widow by late phase 2/early phase 3.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-06-26 11:11am

IMO, the best time to do a Black Widow/Hawkeye solo film was during the aftermath of AoU when she goes after where she thinks Banner has hidden and stumbles into Wakanda, but not before running into some HYDRA remnants who are also chasing him.

I still wouldn't get all bent out of shape over DC getting there first, besides WW is one of the few DCEU films that's actually good. And Gadot is hotter than Johansson! :luv: :mrgreen: Captain Marvel is more on Wonder Woman's level as far as superpowers go anyway.

As Civil War and Ragnarok have shown, apart from each hero's intro (solo) movie the films are better when they feature more than one superhero. Of course Black Panther is the exception in that the character was introduced before he got his solo effort. However I felt that film suffered from only having a couple of minor MCU characters being present, Bucky's post-credits cameo notwithstanding.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-06-26 04:54pm

Kojiro wrote:
2018-06-24 08:17am
Q99 wrote:
2018-06-24 04:55am
There was a great window when I think that'd have been super-popular but at the time, well, the Marvel execs were a bit sexist on the issue.
I'd say it's more likely they simply don't have faith in a film based around non powered characters. It's not like Hawkeye has his own movie (or even made it into Infinity War for that matter). People have always questioned the role of Hawkeye and Widow on the Avengers team due to their lack of powers. After all, the movies are partly spectacle and Widow can't really provide that. You could put it in the movie but then you'd be overshadowing Widow in her own film.
Maybe, but they don't give every powered hero their own movie either. Hulk hasn't had one in a long time, Falcon and War Machine (admittedly more secondary characters) haven't, Vision hasn't despite being a full Avenger, nor has Scarlett Witch. On the flip side, Tony has no powers at all except the ones derived from the tech. he's built, and unpowered Coulson was popular enough to get a spin-off show.

It seems to me that whether a character has powers isn't necessarily the deciding thing. It may have be one factor, but Black Widow was by far their most prominent, and probably most popular, female character- if they were going to do a female-lead film at all, she was the obvious choice for the last six or seven years.

Remember that for a long time, there was an attitude that action/superhero films with a female lead wouldn't succeed- probably arising from the assumption that boys watched those movies and wouldn't identify with a female lead, and from the failure of past female-lead superhero films like Catwoman. That excuse, flimsy as it was, got blown out of the water starting in about 2015, with Force Awakens and Fury Road, followed in the subsequent years by Wonder Woman (which is the only unambiguous success that the DC films have had since The Dark Knight).
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Kojiro » 2018-06-27 02:54am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-06-26 04:54pm
Maybe, but they don't give every powered hero their own movie either. Hulk hasn't had one in a long time, Falcon and War Machine (admittedly more secondary characters) haven't, Vision hasn't despite being a full Avenger, nor has Scarlett Witch. On the flip side, Tony has no powers at all except the ones derived from the tech. he's built, and unpowered Coulson was popular enough to get a spin-off show.
I think there's a fine line that's getting blurred there. Tony is different from Warmachine or Falcon in that he is the originator of the tech- one of his famous descriptors is after all 'in a cave with a box of scraps'. It's not a 'super power' but the ability to whip up super science is from a narrative view more or less the same. But he's also been given plenty of screen time so whatever. Vision and Scarlet Witch are both extremely powerful sure but as you said, neither has gotten their own film, which if it was all about sexism we'd expect to see one for Vision but not Witch. Falcon and Warmachine are, I think, kinda like weak Starks. Basically a dude with a suit, but they're really just inheriting lesser versions of something better out there (and I've no doubt Stark keeps the best toys for himself). Arguably Stark's power was, quite literally, that only he could power the suits. At least until the arc reactors started just being another piece of tech. Point being that Stark was an essential part of Iron Man- no Stark, no Iron Man suits or the ability to power them even if you can build one.

It's worth noting, we didn't get Quill story either- we got GotG, which of course he's central to but it's sure as hell not a 'solo' outing. As there is no Hawkeye film. The closest thing to a mundane, no powers human getting a solo film is Ant Man, who still inherits super science powers. That's an odd choice, since they could have just made him Pym but eh, probably something in the timeline they didn't want to mess up.

At the end of the day though, when all these characters rock up for battle, Widow is on a short list of those who could be taken out by a well aimed rock.
It seems to me that whether a character has powers isn't necessarily the deciding thing. It may have be one factor, but Black Widow was by far their most prominent, and probably most popular, female character- if they were going to do a female-lead film at all, she was the obvious choice for the last six or seven years.
I don't disagree, and I do, for the record, think there was a *time* for it, but that's long passed now. The stakes the Avengers are playing with now.. I mean you could do a Solo type deal- this is how she came to be thing- but it the midst of what's going on I feel it would come off as... unimportant. Incidentally a 2019 Black Widow film has been announced. It's also worth noting that Johansson has portrayed BW in 2010 (IM2), 2012 (Avengers), 2014 (CAtWS), 2015 (AoU), 2016 (CACW) and or course 2018 (IW). So it's not like the character has been sitting on the shelf.
Remember that for a long time, there was an attitude that action/superhero films with a female lead wouldn't succeed- probably arising from the assumption that boys watched those movies and wouldn't identify with a female lead, and from the failure of past female-lead superhero films like Catwoman.
See, I do not understand where this originates from given I grew up with the biggest crushes on both Linda Hamilton and Sigourney Weaver. And those films were not unsuccessful! Shit man, you make a good story with good acting and I'll watch it. You do that AND you make the star a woman I can find desirable? I will watch the shit out of that. I remember watching Red Sonja and thinking 'that woman is amazing. I WANT ONE'. Who in their right mind thinks boys and men don't want to see kick ass women? It feels like some shitty assumption that the majority of men are threatened by capable women instead of interested by them. I'm sure some men are threatened, but fuck those guys. I don't know a single person who ever thought Sarah Connor wasn't awesome.

And only an idiot would watch Catwoman and think 'This failed because vagina'. Bad films fail because they're bad films and that was a bad fucking film.
That excuse, flimsy as it was, got blown out of the water starting in about 2015, with Force Awakens
To be fair, it was the first SW film in god knows how long. It could have been led by a moss covered rock and it'd have made money.
and Fury Road, followed in the subsequent years by Wonder Woman (which is the only unambiguous success that the DC films have had since The Dark Knight).
As I said, I think that excuse was DoA, if indeed it ever was a real excuse. Sarah Connor, Ripley, Aeryn Sun and of course my avatar are all kick ass women and I for one want as many of them as I can get my hands on. But Rey is still shit :P

I will say there is something about the physics of some women (and smaller men) in fights on screen that does often not work. I think it's basically tied to our innate knowledge of human movement and weight. A lot of the time an actress will deliver a blow that just looks weak- you can see it. You can see how fast it is, you know (roughly) how heavy her arm is... it's like wire fu (another thing I dislike btw) where someone gives a soft poke but the target goes flying. Like you can just see.. that arm.. that speed.. it's just not going to hurt. But when the dude is not only hurt but sent flying like a rag doll? For the record, I dislike it equally when it's a guy doing it, but at least when Hemsworth punches someone my brain looks at the size of his arms and thinks 'yep, that'd hurt'. When agent May backhands someone? Eh... It just doesn't convey the same impact. I guess overall it's more a critique of the way (super) strength is handled, but especially when the dudes are huge buff monsters and girls are slim to athletic at best, it's something my brain notices. Fortunately this is not universal- Wonder Woman did an excellent job of making me believe Diana's blows were damned powerful- helped no doubt by the speed up/slow down nature of her fighting normals, as well as a sprinkling of shattering pillars, broken mausers and flying tables. She didn't deliver a kick that looked exactly like a normal person kicking but inexplicably sent a guy flying through a window, she launched herself and took the dude with her on her knee. Same effect overall but a little bit of style in the depiction changes everything (to my eyes). Make it look believable (within the superhero paradigm) and I'm happy.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-06-27 12:52pm

Re Ant-Man and Scott Lang/Hank Pym: Pym is problematic because in the comics, he's a wife-beater. Timeline wise, they wanted something that could tie into Winter Soldier with HYDRA, and having Pym have a history with SHIELD and the corrupt Senator did that.

Plus, Michael Douglas is... oooooold. Ish. Not as old as his dad (who, amazingly, is STILL around) but definitely up there. Nah, they were going more for the 'veteran super-scientist takes smart newb under his wing' approach. Paul Rudd is funny, he doesn't really do 'super-genius' though. He can do 'smart' but he can't, I don't think, pull off the kind of scientist dude who can create the Pym-particle shrink-tech.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-06-27 02:24pm

Kojiro wrote:
2018-06-27 02:54am
I think there's a fine line that's getting blurred there. Tony is different from Warmachine or Falcon in that he is the originator of the tech- one of his famous descriptors is after all 'in a cave with a box of scraps'. It's not a 'super power' but the ability to whip up super science is from a narrative view more or less the same. But he's also been given plenty of screen time so whatever.
This seems a bit nitpicky, and while its true that they've gotten lots of screen time, and so has Black Widow, that's beside the point here- which is who gets to actually have their own film, and why.
Vision and Scarlet Witch are both extremely powerful sure but as you said, neither has gotten their own film, which if it was all about sexism we'd expect to see one for Vision but not Witch.
First of all, I never said that it was "...all about sexism..."- I said that sexism was a factor.

Secondly, saying "this one guy didn't get his own film, therefore not sexist" is missing the point. Its not about the fact that Black Widow specifically didn't get a film- its that not one woman got to lead a Marvel film for upwards of ten years, while nine* male characters thus far have across a total of, allow me to correct my earlier numbers because I forgot some, twenty films**).

I only mention Black Widow specifically because she was the obvious choice for a female lead. But if Black Widow hadn't gotten a film but other female characters had, then Black Widow not getting one would not be such an issue. Does that make sense?
Falcon and Warmachine are, I think, kinda like weak Starks. Basically a dude with a suit, but they're really just inheriting lesser versions of something better out there (and I've no doubt Stark keeps the best toys for himself).
A character is more than their power set, but point taken.
Arguably Stark's power was, quite literally, that only he could power the suits. At least until the arc reactors started just being another piece of tech. Point being that Stark was an essential part of Iron Man- no Stark, no Iron Man suits or the ability to power them even if you can build one.
Well, that's no longer the case. And Stark never had innate powers, even if its easy to forget- he's just good at building machines.
It's worth noting, we didn't get Quill story either- we got GotG, which of course he's central to but it's sure as hell not a 'solo' outing.
Quill is, however, unmistakably the main character, the main focus of the films is his journey, and he is the team leader.
As there is no Hawkeye film. The closest thing to a mundane, no powers human getting a solo film is Ant Man, who still inherits super science powers. That's an odd choice, since they could have just made him Pym but eh, probably something in the timeline they didn't want to mess up.
Again, Stark. He has no innate powers unless you say that his engineering skills are evidence of super-intelligence- he's just good at building machines.
At the end of the day though, when all these characters rock up for battle, Widow is on a short list of those who could be taken out by a well aimed rock.
Hawkeye, Scarlett Witch or Quicksilver (possibly) if you caught them by surprise, Tony or Falcon or War Machine or Ant Man or Wasp if you caught them out of the suite.

Which is all beside the point, because power levels are not what define a character, you can easily tell a good action movie around a character without superpowers even in a superpower universe (cough-Batman-cough), and Black Widow has been the obvious choice for a female-lead Marvel film for nearly a decade.
I don't disagree, and I do, for the record, think there was a *time* for it, but that's long passed now. The stakes the Avengers are playing with now.. I mean you could do a Solo type deal- this is how she came to be thing- but it the midst of what's going on I feel it would come off as... unimportant.
I don't see why. You wouldn't put her up against someone like Thanos, but neither will Antman and Wasp be facing a top-tier villain (I presume), and no one is saying that its unimportant, are they?

I do think the ideal time would have been a spy movie right after some time between Winter Soldier and Black Panther, but there are lots of opportunities for spy games in the chaos that would emerge after half the planet's population mysteriously disintegrates. Honestly, Earth should be in a complete breakdown of society/infrastructure/the economy right now, with rogue states, terrorist groups, and cults springing up everywhere. I have a feeling Antman and Wasp will utterly ignore this (the teasers suggest that it does, unless its supposed to be pre-Infinity War) in favor of keeping a more light-hearted status quo, but really, MCU Earth should look more like Mad Max Earth right now.

I'd have Black Widow infiltrating an appocaylptic Cult of Thanos or something. Tie it into Avengers while still showing the smaller-scale story. Explains why Black Widow is on her own, too- everyone is stretched thin dealing with the fallout from "Holy shit, half the Earth just died".

Incidentally a 2019 Black Widow film has been announced.
Yeah, I know. Finally. Which shows that Marvel thinks its not too late for a Black Widow film to work.
It's also worth noting that Johansson has portrayed BW in 2010 (IM2), 2012 (Avengers), 2014 (CAtWS), 2015 (AoU), 2016 (CACW) and or course 2018 (IW). So it's not like the character has been sitting on the shelf.
But again, that's not the point. Which is that for a decade, only men (and for the most part, only straight white American men) were deemed worthy of headlining a film.
See, I do not understand where this originates from given I grew up with the biggest crushes on both Linda Hamilton and Sigourney Weaver. And those films were not unsuccessful! Shit man, you make a good story with good acting and I'll watch it. You do that AND you make the star a woman I can find desirable? I will watch the shit out of that. I remember watching Red Sonja and thinking 'that woman is amazing. I WANT ONE'. Who in their right mind thinks boys and men don't want to see kick ass women? It feels like some shitty assumption that the majority of men are threatened by capable women instead of interested by them. I'm sure some men are threatened, but fuck those guys. I don't know a single person who ever thought Sarah Connor wasn't awesome.

And only an idiot would watch Catwoman and think 'This failed because vagina'. Bad films fail because they're bad films and that was a bad fucking film.
Indeed. It always was a flimsy excuse for sexism, but between the '80s and 2015 or so, a lot of people seem to have forgotten that women could be successful action movie leads.
To be fair, it was the first SW film in god knows how long. It could have been led by a moss covered rock and it'd have made money.
True, which was why it was an ideal test case to promote the viability of female leads in action movies. Another film might have failed, and then the execs and sexist fans could have blamed the failure on the fact that it had a female lead. TFA was always going to be a mega-hit, so it was a "safe" movie to cast outside the box a bit. And its hard to imagine a franchise that has more impact on the Hollywood film industry than Star Wars- the Original Trilogy helped create the modern action blockbuster, and the Prequels helped kick-start the age of digital film and CGI. In a sense, you could almost say that as Star Wars goes, so goes the industry. So all the complaints aside, I will forever be grateful to TFA for that. Though I also think that it was probably the one-two punch of Fury Road (which was ultimately a better film) and TFA that created the surge in interest in female-lead action films over the last few years.[/quote]
As I said, I think that excuse was DoA, if indeed it ever was a real excuse. Sarah Connor, Ripley, Aeryn Sun and of course my avatar are all kick ass women


It was definitely an excuse that was used, and an attitude some exes had, though I don't have quotes on-hand. It is and was stupid, but that didn't stop it from having an effect. I will also note, however, since you mentioned Aeryn Sun, that I am talking about film specifically. TV was probably better in this regard during the last two decades (cough-Buffy-cough).
and I for one want as many of them as I can get my hands on.
That strikes me as a somewhat unfortunate phrasing. :wink:
But Rey is still shit :P
Eh, regardless of personal opinions of the character (which I do not wish to reargue here), I don't think it can be denied that there has been a perceptible shift in attitudes on this issue in the last three-four years or so, and Rey is likely a part of what made that happen.
I will say there is something about the physics of some women (and smaller men) in fights on screen that does often not work. I think it's basically tied to our innate knowledge of human movement and weight. A lot of the time an actress will deliver a blow that just looks weak- you can see it. You can see how fast it is, you know (roughly) how heavy her arm is... it's like wire fu (another thing I dislike btw) where someone gives a soft poke but the target goes flying. Like you can just see.. that arm.. that speed.. it's just not going to hurt. But when the dude is not only hurt but sent flying like a rag doll? For the record, I dislike it equally when it's a guy doing it, but at least when Hemsworth punches someone my brain looks at the size of his arms and thinks 'yep, that'd hurt'. When agent May backhands someone? Eh... It just doesn't convey the same impact. I guess overall it's more a critique of the way (super) strength is handled, but especially when the dudes are huge buff monsters and girls are slim to athletic at best, it's something my brain notices. Fortunately this is not universal- Wonder Woman did an excellent job of making me believe Diana's blows were damned powerful- helped no doubt by the speed up/slow down nature of her fighting normals, as well as a sprinkling of shattering pillars, broken mausers and flying tables. She didn't deliver a kick that looked exactly like a normal person kicking but inexplicably sent a guy flying through a window, she launched herself and took the dude with her on her knee. Same effect overall but a little bit of style in the depiction changes everything (to my eyes). Make it look believable (within the superhero paradigm) and I'm happy.
Partly this just sounds like bad choreography, which can impact both men and women (see Shatner's fight choreography on Star Trek for a particularly absurd example). Partly, as you said, its the tendency to cast slim women who look like models, which is another example of Hollywood sexism and general superficiality. But it doesn't bother me in the case of someone like Diana, because she has superpowers and her strength has nothing to do with size/muscles.

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**Iron Man, Hulk, Captain America, Iron Man II, Iron Man III, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Ant Man, Thor, Thor II, Thor Ragnarok, Doctor Strange, Spiderman, Avengers, Age of Ultron, Infinity War, Black Panther, Guardians I, Guardians II, and the upcoming Ant Man and Wasp.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-06-27 08:32pm

I have a feeling Antman and Wasp will utterly ignore this (the teasers suggest that it does, unless its supposed to be pre-Infinity War)
Apparently it's set a couple of months beforehand, and will explain why both Ant-Man and Hawkeye are absent from Infinity War, and how both are under house arrest. We'll find out in just over a week's time! :mrgreen:
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Kojiro » 2018-06-28 03:24am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-06-27 02:24pm
First of all, I never said that it was "...all about sexism..."- I said that sexism was a factor.
I apologise. I am somewhat hypersensitive to that angle of complaint and I may have read too much into your point. Sorry.
Secondly, saying "this one guy didn't get his own film, therefore not sexist" is missing the point.
Well first, it's not 'one guy' it's all the guys who aren't self contained super powers/super science. As I said, Ant Man almost falls into this category and, interestingly, it seems they're actually going with something of him being special given the 'size comparisons' teased in AMatW. But that's a bit of speculation.
I only mention Black Widow specifically because she was the obvious choice for a female lead. But if Black Widow hadn't gotten a film but other female characters had, then Black Widow not getting one would not be such an issue. Does that make sense?
Sure. I only wanted to say that there could be wholly non sinister reasons for it.
Well, that's no longer the case. And Stark never had innate powers, even if its easy to forget- he's just good at building machines.
Not in the classic sense, but in that he could do what no one else could, he sorta did. There are even versions of Stark where his genius *is* a literal super power, which I do like, as it helps explain why it's so difficult to replicate.
Quill is, however, unmistakably the main character, the main focus of the films is his journey, and he is the team leader.
Leader yes.. but I would say he's equally 'ranked' with Gamora, especially since GotG2 and she was definitely more pivotal in IW. But it's not a solo film regardless.
Again, Stark. He has no innate powers unless you say that his engineering skills are evidence of super-intelligence- he's just good at building machines.
See above. It's tech, so obviously it's replicable, but oddly no one bar Venko can (and even that was mostly due to the arc tech he had the plans for).
Hawkeye, Scarlett Witch or Quicksilver (possibly) if you caught them by surprise, Tony or Falcon or War Machine or Ant Man or Wasp if you caught them out of the suite.
I'll have to disagree with Quicksilver, given we see him casually notice a bullet moving past him. A rock would struggle. Point being when your characters are that squishy you need lower the damage output. It is, as I pointed out, why we don't see Widow in the thick of the Outrider fight. A horde of creatures that can overpower Cap, Panther or the Hulkbuster are going to destroy her. It's probably also why we never see Falcon knocked out of the sky like Rhodes was. These are concessions you can make when you have a cast of however many were there. Much harder when all you have is a baseline human who is supposed to be carrying the movie.
Which is all beside the point, because power levels are not what define a character, you can easily tell a good action movie around a character without superpowers even in a superpower universe (cough-Batman-cough), and Black Widow has been the obvious choice for a female-lead Marvel film for nearly a decade.
I would have liked to see her get a film just before CAtWS, to play some part in the uncovering of Hydra. But who knows? Perhaps Johansson wasn't interested back then, or had other commitments (and she did have a pregnancy in there too).
I don't see why. You wouldn't put her up against someone like Thanos, but neither will Antman and Wasp be facing a top-tier villain (I presume), and no one is saying that its unimportant, are they?
That's the double edged sword of being a Avenger I guess. Ant Man isn't an Avenger, though he did show up for Civil War. So, sorta no, I don't consider him in the same pay grade as Widow, even if he is more powerful. For the record I will almost certainly find myself wondering why the bad guy in AMatW doesn't just use a knife or something (like I do with evil speedsters). Such 'villains' are gimped and therefore, to me, kinda silly. But I know very little about said villain so we'll see.
But again, that's not the point. Which is that for a decade, only men (and for the most part, only straight white American men) were deemed worthy of headlining a film.
I think that's kinda a legacy issue to do with when the Avengers originated and who the market was at the time.

True, which was why it was an ideal test case to promote the viability of female leads in action movies.
See I disagree, because if you want to prove the point that women can carry the film, you should eliminate variable such as 'has massive, hungry audience' from the list.
Another film might have failed, and then the execs and sexist fans could have blamed the failure on the fact that it had a female lead. TFA was always going to be a mega-hit, so it was a "safe" movie to cast outside the box a bit
But now you have people who will say 'it only succeeded because Star Wars'. You can't 'prove' anything with a safe choice.
I will also note, however, since you mentioned Aeryn Sun, that I am talking about film specifically. TV was probably better in this regard during the last two decades (cough-Buffy-cough).
Honestly I don't really see a difference in terms of what I'll watch. I mean, I can't see anyone who would go 'I'll watch women kick ass on TV but I refuse to watch them in the cinema'. I figure you're either pro kick ass girls or not. :P
That strikes me as a somewhat unfortunate phrasing. :wink:
Well, when I was younger I knew I liked them, but didn't really have any idea why. Certainly as I got older the idea of getting my hands on a kick ass woman took on a more literal meaning. But I sincerely do think that those women influenced me in that way- for example I really don't like 'girly girls'. The kind of girl who, in my job as roadside assistance, will go 'Oh I'm just a girl I can't change a tire!' or 'I don't know cars, that's a man thing!' Fuck that noise.
Eh, regardless of personal opinions of the character (which I do not wish to reargue here), I don't think it can be denied that there has been a perceptible shift in attitudes on this issue in the last three-four years or so, and Rey is likely a part of what made that happen.
Perhaps, but I'd say badly done. The invisible hand props her up too much to make her convincingly badass as opposed to lucky/blessed by the gods. I feel that actually hurts women more than helps, as if their success can't come from within.
Partly this just sounds like bad choreography, which can impact both men and women (see Shatner's fight choreography on Star Trek for a particularly absurd example). Partly, as you said, its the tendency to cast slim women who look like models, which is another example of Hollywood sexism and general superficiality. But it doesn't bother me in the case of someone like Diana, because she has superpowers and her strength has nothing to do with size/muscles.
See in terms of strength I agree. But in terms of action and blows? I don't buy it. Braced I can completely get she can lift a tank or crush as gun or whatever. It's similar to when Superman throws a football or baseball. If his arm is only moving at human speeds, it's only going to impart human level kinetic energy into the ball.

I will say that the characters in super hero films are, both genders, somewhat idealised. There's no shortage or women who find the guys super hot, just as there's not shortage of guys who find the ladies super hot (and hey, we've never had a scene talking about how hot the girls are while some guy feels up her legs while unconscious!). Where it applies here though is that the 'idealisd' forms aren't mirrors and the male form emphasizes strength while the female form emphasizes shape. Cap, Thor, Quill- all these dudes (the ones who get shirtless scenes) are clear over 6ft for a reason. :P

But this is all very off topic for IW. Feel free to PM me if you want to continue. :)
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-06-28 06:52pm

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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-06-28 07:13pm

That was pretty good. The first alternate way they could have beaten Thanos actually seemed quite plausible and clever.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-07-01 09:55am

Portal Cut, which actually fits with the recent Marvel tendency (since phase 2) of chopping people's arms off! :mrgreen: Spoiler
Poor Yo-yo! :P
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