Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

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Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-04-01 04:41pm

In 1945, Dr. Erskine is shot by a Nazi/Hydra agent, along with a small bomb going off, blowing up the Vita Ray chamber, making it impossible to make more Super Soldiers.

What if, instead, the Nazi agent is stopped before this happened, leaving both the manufacturing capability and brilliant mind behind it. What changes? How does this affect the MCU from then on?

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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by Gaidin » 2018-04-01 05:04pm

Well. There's a proverbial and literal reason he chose Steve Rogers for Subject 0. Imagine what would happen if they started using it on your average WW2 army ranger and not just their abilities but their ethics and morals get magnified.

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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-04-01 05:12pm

Yeah, the big question is how much control over the selection process Erskine would retain or whether once the process is proved to work with Steve, Phillips gets to pump all his bully up with the serum.

I imagine the program would be taken out of his hands which means... america makes its own crop of Red Skulls and that's going to throw a massive spanner in the works.
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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by Gaidin » 2018-04-01 05:18pm

Red Skull might be exaggerating because that was literally taking an evil person and magnifying evil. Erskine took a good person and magnified good. That's the only two examples we have. We literally don't know what a bellcurve would do. Landing on top of a bell curve. Slightly to the side? It's one big scary mess.

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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-04-01 05:23pm

Would Bruce Banner Hulk and Abomination count, as they're offshoots of the same work.
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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by Gaidin » 2018-04-01 05:26pm

Banner and Abomination are offshoots of trying to duplicate the same work and failing.

The thing you need to remember is that there are literally plenty of criminals who'd literally be willing to shoot someone dead but at the same time ask you "What do you think I am? A Nazi?" Plenty of these people might have the moral wherewithal to work outside the law when they get back but be perfectly willing to work in a chain of command to take down Hitler. Others will literally end up accidentally creating two distinctly separate classes of people. Those that are superior, those that aren't. And they'll start playing politics with each other. And the lessers will be the pawns.

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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by Civil War Man » 2018-04-01 08:11pm

Gaidin wrote:
2018-04-01 05:26pm
Banner and Abomination are offshoots of trying to duplicate the same work and failing.
I think Banner was closer than people both in and out of universe assume. The MCU doesn't go into his backstory much, but it's pretty well established that even before he became the Hulk, Banner had a lot of anger issues and a pretty short temper. They obviously messed up somewhere with the formula or the process, since you have the unstable transformations back and forth, but it does fit with Erskine's description of the formula amplifying all of the defining emotional traits of the subject.

As for Blonsky, anything post-Abomination isn't really applicable, since that involved him receiving an infusion of the Hulk's blood on top of the initial serum injections, which adds additional variables to the mix. Pre-Abomination, he gets by without looking weird, though he does get more erratic and aggressive as time goes on, so that could be the serum's effect on him.

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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by Zixinus » 2018-04-02 03:47pm

It would mean that the super-soldier serum would become like the nuclear bomb plans. At first tightly controlled but sooner or later, during the Cold War, it will leak out. Then everyone will want to have one, especially every military. There seems to be no real downside to the serum when properly used, so I imagine that it'll be used not just for soldiers.

Then the question becomes manufacturing requirements. Nuclear bombs require fissile materials to make, which are relatively easy to control because they are artificially made. Without fissiles, the most you can get out of a nuclear bomb is a regular bomb.

I can easily foresee that the ethics and character standard would slip so you'll have many, many supersoldiers of various levels of quality over time.

It also means that there is a ready supply of people with supersoldier serum that can stand up to the rise of mutants, aliens and other superscience supers that pop up over the 20th and 21st century. If Steve could stand up to those things with just the serum/vitaray combination and lots of training, then that will be standard for SHIELD agents and the like.

The superserumed and not will also clash sooner or later, unless tight control is kept. Especially if Erskine's idea that his serum/vitaray combo exaggerates internal character is correct, there will be a call for tight control. And there will be inevitably problems when not-so-great superserumed will cause problems. Especially from veterans that became disillusioned by the military and their government.

Oh, hey, superserumed biker gangs. Captain America with a beard and leather jacket. Someone call Shroom.

But seriously, if the serum exaggerates character, what happens if the character changes AFTER the serum/vitaray treatment? Like someone returning from the war with traumatic memories and such.
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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by Gaidin » 2018-04-03 12:15am

Civil War Man wrote:
2018-04-01 08:11pm
Gaidin wrote:
2018-04-01 05:26pm
Banner and Abomination are offshoots of trying to duplicate the same work and failing.
I think Banner was closer than people both in and out of universe assume. The MCU doesn't go into his backstory much, but it's pretty well established that even before he became the Hulk, Banner had a lot of anger issues and a pretty short temper. They obviously messed up somewhere with the formula or the process, since you have the unstable transformations back and forth, but it does fit with Erskine's description of the formula amplifying all of the defining emotional traits of the subject.

As for Blonsky, anything post-Abomination isn't really applicable, since that involved him receiving an infusion of the Hulk's blood on top of the initial serum injections, which adds additional variables to the mix. Pre-Abomination, he gets by without looking weird, though he does get more erratic and aggressive as time goes on, so that could be the serum's effect on him.
You're still missing the point. Here's your bell curve of super humans. Because the general's gonna feed that shit to the Rangers. What does it do to society.

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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by GuppyShark » 2018-04-03 07:11am

Hrmm. Very interesting scenario to ponder, given that eventually the proliferation of supers would be so widespread you'd end up with entire armies of these super soldiers. Presumably leading to some sort of... superhuman revolt.

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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by Zixinus » 2018-04-03 04:05pm

Except that the serum and treatment aren't hereditary, as far as a quick search tells us. Which means that serumed people will have regular children that will need the serum in turn.

A significant difference as it isn't a different race, but a different culture. It is still potentially bad if EVERYONE wants the serum or if it creates second class citizens. Which may end up worse.
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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by Solauren » 2018-04-03 09:58pm

I can't see the Serum going into mass use that quickly.

First, there has to be concerns over long term viability.

You'll notice they put Rogers right into doing the Rallys and so forth (I forget what they were called). There had to be some concern that long term, he'd go 'Red Skull'. In fact, if he hadn't pulled his stunt to rescue Bucky, they probably would not have deployed them.

The military probably wanted to monitor him before doing any 'mass production'. Sure, the idea of a squadron, division, or ARMY of 'Super Soldiers' sounds good, on paper. What if they rebel? Imagine 200 people like Captain America going 'screw it', and deciding to go Warlord in Europe?

Actually, considering that 3/4 of the Super Soldier experiments resulted in beings with undesirable traits, that was probably warranted.
(Red Skull, Hulk, Abomination)

Also, you have the possibility of, 'okay, they were fine in the war', but what about afterwards? Imagine a Super Soldier with Shell Shock or P.T.S.D.

Second, we don't know how much it cost to create the Super Soldier serum in the first place, or what materials were needed. There has to be something unusual about it, or someone would have been able to crack it after World War 2.
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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-04-04 02:09am

Well, Erskine didn't keep notes, or at least not enough to recreate the process. He apparently kept most of it in his head. This was mostly due to how the process was abused by Red Skull when he was in Germany.
You'll notice they put Rogers right into doing the Rallys and so forth (I forget what they were called). There had to be some concern that long term, he'd go 'Red Skull'. In fact, if he hadn't pulled his stunt to rescue Bucky, they probably would not have deployed them.
That was mostly Rogers jumping ship as he wanted to be deployed instead of being a lab rat over the course of the war.
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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by Civil War Man » 2018-04-04 08:54am

Gaidin wrote:
2018-04-03 12:15am
You're still missing the point. Here's your bell curve of super humans. Because the general's gonna feed that shit to the Rangers. What does it do to society.
I may have misunderstood your argument. When you pointed out that Hulk and Abomination are offshoots of failures to replicate Erskine's work, I thought you were arguing that they were not applicable to examining the effect Erskine's serum has on people.
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-04-04 02:09am
You'll notice they put Rogers right into doing the Rallys and so forth (I forget what they were called). There had to be some concern that long term, he'd go 'Red Skull'. In fact, if he hadn't pulled his stunt to rescue Bucky, they probably would not have deployed them.
That was mostly Rogers jumping ship as he wanted to be deployed instead of being a lab rat over the course of the war.
Yeah, prior to his recruitment by the USO (which is the group you were trying to think of, Solauren), Phillips had him slated to spend the war in a lab, and they were taking blood samples from Rogers for the express purpose of studying it. Had Rogers not jumped ship to the USO, they would have been experimenting on him in an attempt to reverse-engineer the serum and make more of him.

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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by Zixinus » 2018-04-04 01:23pm

Solauren wrote:
2018-04-03 09:58pm
I can't see the Serum going into mass use that quickly.

First, there has to be concerns over long term viability.

You'll notice they put Rogers right into doing the Rallys and so forth (I forget what they were called). There had to be some concern that long term, he'd go 'Red Skull'. In fact, if he hadn't pulled his stunt to rescue Bucky, they probably would not have deployed them.

The military probably wanted to monitor him before doing any 'mass production'. Sure, the idea of a squadron, division, or ARMY of 'Super Soldiers' sounds good, on paper. What if they rebel? Imagine 200 people like Captain America going 'screw it', and deciding to go Warlord in Europe?

Actually, considering that 3/4 of the Super Soldier experiments resulted in beings with undesirable traits, that was probably warranted.
(Red Skull, Hulk, Abomination)

Also, you have the possibility of, 'okay, they were fine in the war', but what about afterwards? Imagine a Super Soldier with Shell Shock or P.T.S.D.

Second, we don't know how much it cost to create the Super Soldier serum in the first place, or what materials were needed. There has to be something unusual about it, or someone would have been able to crack it after World War 2.
Remember that Red Skull was an early experiment, it is hard to tell whether it was the serum amplifying personality to the point of distorting physical features or just an unwanted side-effect. Hulk was a bad copy of trying to recreate the results with incomplete data (it DID work, just not the way that was intended) and Abomination does not count because that wacko actually WANTED to be the Hulk (or LIKE the Hulk).

This thread assumes that there are no gaps in knowledge and what was done to the Captain can be repeated. We don't know about any exotic material costs.

According to Civil War, they DID crack it to some extent. Winter Soldiers, remember? They got overly aggressive but the superior strength aspect still worked.
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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by Zixinus » 2018-04-04 03:12pm

It is also possible, based on the fact that they kept the Winter Soldiers frozen, is that Hydra managed to get the serum to work MOSTLY. Some of the marvel wiki talk about the serum causing superior strength in the short term but eventually destroying the body. It is possible that Hydra got that far and that was far enough for Winter Soldiers, who were kept in hibernation/frozen until needed again.
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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by Solauren » 2018-04-04 08:44pm

Still, you'd want to monitor Rogers for a while before you made another Super Soldier.
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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by Themightytom » 2018-04-05 01:10am

well obviously World War II gets won by The Americans if they have super soldiers I don't think that necessarily means they give it to a whole Battalion though.

If they build an elite unit though around captain America, maybe the howling commandos, Cap might not go in the ice. The technology could still be damaged or lost at some point, or it could be tightly controlled. Other nations and allies even might start focusing on counter measures but all that might be is a higher caliber bullet, or nerve gas. Vibranium is rare and Steve uses his indestructible shield to huge advantage. More super soldier serum doesn't guarantee all captain America's. Wakanda still has a huge tech advantage, and their own way of creating a super soldier. They probably stay indifferent and hidden. I don't really know what Romanoff is but it seems like the Russians had something going on. Black Widow can't curl a helicopter but she can still stab a guy to death.

MAYBE someone stumbles over in humans and terragen crystals because remarkable people are such a high priority suddenly, but I don't see much difference overall. Thor doesn't have a reason to get banished any sooner. Stark would be just as likely selling weapons of the gold standard is a super soldier killer.

Cap not going in the ice might mean Bucky never becomes the winter soldier, and Hydra doesn't succeed in killing Howard Stark, but with even a few more super soldier's, some spy steals a formula or some soldier disappears and they might eventually either reverse engineer a soldier of their own or brainwash one. They had their own flawed ones, so maybe S.H.I.E.L.D fights a shadow war. I think the conditions that created Hulk would still happen anyway because if they weren't trying to recreate the super soldier serum somebody would probably be trying to advance her and improve and there's still plenty of room for accidents.

All of that being the case, maybe Tony is a little less reckless and doesn't get stuck in a cave building iron man. Steve Rogers is old now. Thor drops to Earth and Loki still falls off the bridge. He returns to Earth and can still tank a super soldier, but maybe not a dozen.
Hulk would probably still plow through them and if Loki still gets a few minions, maybe a supersoldier Clint, Avengers is happening without Cap as the leader and without Iron man.
Loki might actually win. No iron man immune to the spear, no captain America to lead and inspire? Just a few more above average soldier's being ordered around as effectively as anyone was already.

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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-06-16 12:16pm

Zixinus wrote:
2018-04-03 04:05pm
Except that the serum and treatment aren't hereditary, as far as a quick search tells us. Which means that serumed people will have regular children that will need the serum in turn.

A significant difference as it isn't a different race, but a different culture. It is still potentially bad if EVERYONE wants the serum or if it creates second class citizens. Which may end up worse.
Is superserum traits hereditary? We don't have evidence one way or the other. If it is, what does that mean for GIs who have gone through the process going home to start the Baby Boom?
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Re: Dr. Erskine survives (Captain America RAR

Post by Zixinus » 2018-06-16 06:25pm

Nothing good, because now you suddenly have a bunch of civilians that regular cops can't handle without highly escalated force. Politically it can be quite dangerous as biker gangs started out from WW2 vets unable or unwilling to rejoin society. Now they have super-soldier serum and god-knows-what-else. Not all such soldiers would do this but enough to make crime much worse and things generally more violent.

Then there is the fact that the serum will be all-desirable. Who wouldn't want superior physical form that is immune to aging and grants a measure of invulnerablility?

The only way this could be mitigated is if an anti-serum would be created and used.-
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