You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

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You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-18 12:05am

Bad news: Through a freak accident, act of violence, or just plain bad luck, you are killed.

Good news: Lucky for you, you also happen to be Immortal, and no damage was done to your head or your neck.

Worse news: You are going to be pursued by other immortals who play 'The Game' in order to win the prize.

What is the prize? Supposedly, ultimate power.

The Game has a few rules, which only seem to be self enforced by fellow Immortals.

For those who have never seen Highlander, the rules are such:

The Rules
There can be only one.

No fighting on Holy Ground.

You must only fight one on one duels.
So, what do you do with immortality?
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by Batman » 2018-03-18 12:35am

I've been killed more times than I can remember. I let them behead me then wait until the next reboot nixes the whole thing and brings me back
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
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'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-03-18 01:03am

Move into the nearest mausoleum with enough supplies to sit this out.
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by Tribble » 2018-03-18 10:26am

At what stage of the proceedings are we in? Are there plenty of immortals all around, or are we amongst the few left and facing the likes of The Kurgan?
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by Zixinus » 2018-03-18 02:55pm

Travel the world learning as much swordsmanship and general kung-fu as possible because I am now stuck in a centuries-long death match that never ended.

Alternatively, try to join the society of immortals that have forsaken the game. If they are around at all.
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by Solauren » 2018-03-18 04:42pm

To survive, I cheat my ass off....

#1 - Start wearing a neckbrace with steel in it to block sword swings at my neck.
#2 - Start carrying around a a firearm and spare clips.

I'm hoping the other Immortals will leave me alone, and I have no intention of hunting them down.

But, if they do...
We saw in the original Highlander movie that being lethally shot will put an immortal down for a short period of time.
So, if another immortal attacks me, I put a few in him to drop him. Unlike the ex-marine in the first Highlander movie, I know he's about to get back up. So I shot him, and as I get closer, put another round into him to keep him down whenever he movies, or every 5 seconds. Then I take his head.

Anyway, with that handled, continue to live my life. As I get older, figuring out how to not draw suspicion due to being 90+ years old and still looking to be in my mid 40s is going to draw attention, unless we make some serious tech advancements.
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-18 09:20pm

Tribble wrote:
2018-03-18 10:26am
At what stage of the proceedings are we in? Are there plenty of immortals all around, or are we amongst the few left and facing the likes of The Kurgan?
Assume it's like the TV show, with immortals coming out the wazoo, and new ones are an uncommon occurrence.
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-21 04:49pm

I go with Zixinus's option of "Try to find a group of immortals that isn't interested in killing for absolute power." I don't want to spend my eternal life playing kill or be killed with a bunch of immortal, power-hungry sociopaths. Though I'm honestly more worried about governments finding out about my immortality and wanting to conduct experiments on me in a black site somewhere.

Solauren's approach to personal defense seems good. Though I might try and conceal the next brace (say, by wearing a high collar or turtleneck), because a smart assassin will gather intel. on his opponents, and if people know my defenses, they'll have time to start thinking of ways to get around them.

If someone does come after me, also, screw the "honorable duel" shit.

Beyond that... use my immortality to try to accomplish some long-term projects, do things that I'd be otherwise afraid to attempt, but try to keep a fairly low profile, at least among the non-immortals (see above reg. government attention). Try to find an immortal girlfriend, because having to watch the person you're with grow old and die is one of the shittiest things about immortality.

Maybe run for President of the Immortals someday, since I don't particularly have to worry about assassination (at least compared to most people), I doubt any baggage in my background is going to be worse than that of people who have been around for millennia (and from days before we had generally-accepted concepts like "consent" or "human rights laws" or "slavery is bad"), and the long life should give me time to acquire the skills to actually be competent to be a president.

If the immortals don't have democracy... well, I have a new goal to occupy the next few decades/centuries of my existence, don't I?

Naturally, my first act as President of the non-psychopath immortals will be to crack down on the psychopath immortals, both out of self-preservation and because, technically speaking, trying to kill all other immortals means that they are attempting an act of genocide.

Edit: Actually, I need to think bigger here. I have eternity to act (presuming no one murders me)? Fuck it, I'm going to make it my goal for the first millennium to create the United Federation of Planets.

Another question, since it will effect how the long-term future of this world is likely to go: is immortality hereditary? Ie, if an Immortal has children with a non-Immortal, will they have immortal children? What about two Immortals.
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by Solauren » 2018-03-21 06:36pm

Immortals can not have children.
(Except in Highlander "The Source" but nearly everyone ignores that)
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-21 06:38pm

Solauren wrote:
2018-03-21 06:36pm
Immortals can not have children.
(Except in Highlander "The Source" but nearly everyone ignores that)
Okay, that means immortals won't eventually end up overrunning the planet, which makes sense.

Fine by me. Having children isn't really one of my life goals anyway.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-21 09:02pm

There's also no real Immortal nation. So you'll have your work cut out for you both A. Forming a nation with immortals participating, and B. Getting them to accept Democratic rule, and C. Having you as President/king, as you'll be one of the newbies, with most of them having seen governments rise and fall over the course of time.
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by Zixinus » 2018-03-22 02:27pm

I go with Zixinus's option of "Try to find a group of immortals that isn't interested in killing for absolute power." I don't want to spend my eternal life playing kill or be killed with a bunch of immortal, power-hungry sociopaths.
Erm, no. I am not much into Highlander, but I vaguely recall that there is a monk-like sect that have forsaken the Game and live on holy land. Maybe related to the Watchers. I am sure that there was one in the cartoon. These people do not live as free people but are in hiding.
Solauren's approach to personal defense seems good. Though I might try and conceal the next brace (say, by wearing a high collar or turtleneck), because a smart assassin will gather intel. on his opponents, and if people know my defenses, they'll have time to start thinking of ways to get around them.
It won't really work. Immortals hunt other immortals all the time and can surprise you. Forsake the honorable dual part and that just means that all underhanded methods are a go. The honorable dual is actually an agreement to minimize the death of innocents but is not enforced by the Power (unlike the holy land rule). Even if you wear a steel ring around your neck at all times, it does not hinder the fact that while you are immortal you are not invulnerable. If you get seriously injured enough, you will still be helpless while they can just take off the neck brace or cut around it. At best, it's just a surprise that might save you from a quick beheading. If you lose a fight, you'll still lose your head.
Try to find an immortal girlfriend, because having to watch the person you're with grow old and die is one of the shittiest things about immortality.
I don't think you get what the Game is. There is the Gathering, the call to Game and for immortals to gather. You can resist (some do) but there will always be someone who will not or does not want to. You are part of the Game the moment you became immortal, whether you like it or not. Every time a Quickening happens they know that there is a real Power behind the Game. You can't stop it just by waving it off as silly superstition or savagery. Those that forsake it still have to struggle just to remain alive and are still targets. A quick search tells that one immortal tried and ended up beheaded. You can't escape the Game.

Getting an immortal friend/ally of any kind is unwise. There can be only one. Even with the bounds of friendship, that means that a suspension until a later date. Every immortal is suspect. Revealing yourself as an immortal to a mortal will just complicate your own life and potentially render you helpless.
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by Zixinus » 2018-03-22 02:36pm

EDIT: I looked it up and Immortals that have forsaken the game actually only happaned in the animated series, where they agreed to forsake it to help humanity after an apocalypse. So outside of that, it isn't a thing. You're immortal, you are in the Game and you ARE game.
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by LadyTevar » 2018-03-22 03:32pm

In the TV show, there was an Immortal who decided to take Holy Vows and became a Monk. He was never off Holy Ground, and never killed by an Immortal.
The Rogue Watchers killed him, and all his Quickening vanished into the Holy Ground.

See... the Quickening is more than just a fancy light show. The winner is actually absorbing the defeated one's power, knowledge, and skills; basically, eating the soul. The problem is there's so much inside each Immortal that the winner can't contain all of it, and the excess is expelled as visible energy. That's why the older the deceased, the more destructive the Quickening is around them, and why the winner seems so traumatized during and afterward.
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-22 07:27pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-21 09:02pm
There's also no real Immortal nation. So you'll have your work cut out for you both A. Forming a nation with immortals participating, and B. Getting them to accept Democratic rule, and C. Having you as President/king, as you'll be one of the newbies, with most of them having seen governments rise and fall over the course of time.
I have eternity to work with, barring a very specific kind of assassination.

It'll give me something to do. :wink:
Zixinus wrote:
2018-03-22 02:27pm
Erm, no. I am not much into Highlander,
Neither am I, but between what I already knew and what's laid out in this thread, I think I've got a grasp on the basics. Feel free to correct me if I'm in error.
but I vaguely recall that there is a monk-like sect that have forsaken the Game and live on holy land. Maybe related to the Watchers. I am sure that there was one in the cartoon. These people do not live as free people but are in hiding.
And that changes my argument how? They may live in hiding, but its still preferable to "Murder or be murdered for what I am, because of some dipshit's power fantasy."
It won't really work. Immortals hunt other immortals all the time and can surprise you. Forsake the honorable dual part and that just means that all underhanded methods are a go. The honorable dual is actually an agreement to minimize the death of innocents but is not enforced by the Power (unlike the holy land rule). Even if you wear a steel ring around your neck at all times, it does not hinder the fact that while you are immortal you are not invulnerable. If you get seriously injured enough, you will still be helpless while they can just take off the neck brace or cut around it. At best, it's just a surprise that might save you from a quick beheading. If you lose a fight, you'll still lose your head.
So I carry a gun and wear Kevlar when I go out. There is no perfect safety, but at least I only have to guard against one specific kind of danger now.

Will there be consequences to forsaking the honorable duel? Probably. But I'm not going to win an honorable duel against people who have had centuries to practice their swordsmanship precisely for engaging in such duels. And if they want to murder people for a power boost, then as far as I'm concerned, they're fair game. Maybe they could use a taste of what war actually is (I'm reminded of Captain Kirk's actions in "A Taste of Armageddon").

You reap what you sow.
I don't think you get what the Game is.
Oh, I think I do.

I just think its a sociopathic farce that should be fucked with as thoroughly as possible.
There is the Gathering, the call to Game and for immortals to gather. You can resist (some do) but there will always be someone who will not or does not want to. You are part of the Game the moment you became immortal, whether you like it or not. Every time a Quickening happens they know that there is a real Power behind the Game. You can't stop it just by waving it off as silly superstition or savagery. Those that forsake it still have to struggle just to remain alive and are still targets. A quick search tells that one immortal tried and ended up beheaded. You can't escape the Game.
The Game is not a divine mandate, is it? There may be genuine supernatural power involved, but there is no fate or divine will decreeing that this power is right and must prevail, is there?

If not, then people can choose not to play by its rules. It is, in other words, a human construct. An old human construct. A difficult to challenge human construct. One that confers real benefits and power to its participants.

So was slavery.

So was monarchy.

So was theocracy.

I didn't say it would be an easy fight. But its a fight worthy having.
Getting an immortal friend/ally of any kind is unwise. There can be only one.
Why? Because some sociopaths say it is so?
Even with the bounds of friendship, that means that a suspension until a later date. Every immortal is suspect. Revealing yourself as an immortal to a mortal will just complicate your own life and potentially render you helpless.
Every human being is suspect. Every person you ever meet could choose to stab you in the back for personal gain.

You either choose to work with other human beings regardless, and extend at least a little trust in matters of shared self-interest (like the people who want to walk away from the game banding together for mutual self-defense against the Gamers), or you barricade yourself in a bunker in the mountains until you die.

That doesn't mean that I will trust blindly. Trust must be earned and cultivated over time.

And I would seek to acquire non-immortal allies.
Zixinus wrote:
2018-03-22 02:36pm
EDIT: I looked it up and Immortals that have forsaken the game actually only happaned in the animated series, where they agreed to forsake it to help humanity after an apocalypse. So outside of that, it isn't a thing. You're immortal, you are in the Game and you ARE game.
How many immortals are there? Because I refuse to believe that in any group of people consisting of more than a small number of persons (like, dozens or hundreds, max.), there will be complete unanimity on something like that unless some outside force is mind-controlling them. There have to be some immortals who were brought up as pacifists, or believers in the rule of law and human rights, and don't instantly forsake those beliefs when they find out about "the Game".
LadyTevar wrote:
2018-03-22 03:32pm
In the TV show, there was an Immortal who decided to take Holy Vows and became a Monk. He was never off Holy Ground, and never killed by an Immortal.
The Rogue Watchers killed him, and all his Quickening vanished into the Holy Ground.
That Holy Ground affects it in that way has some disturbing possible theological implications. Does this mean that the Immortal thing is some sort of unholy/demonic power? Or is it just that the "eating people's essence for power" bit if frowned on by Divine Power? Because in that case, me and Highlander God are entirely in agreement.
LadyTevar wrote:See... the Quickening is more than just a fancy light show. The winner is actually absorbing the defeated one's power, knowledge, and skills; basically, eating the soul. The problem is there's so much inside each Immortal that the winner can't contain all of it, and the excess is expelled as visible energy. That's why the older the deceased, the more destructive the Quickening is around them, and why the winner seems so traumatized during and afterward.
Oh, collateral damage to the environment. Another excellent reason to despise the Game.

You know what? If it comes down to it, I will make the whole fucking thing public knowledge. Maybe even walk out in front of a bunch of live television cameras and empty a 45 caliber into me at point-blank range if I have to, though I don't know if I'd have the guts to do that. That'll probably end very badly, because humans are unlikely to react well, in general, to a secret group of superhuman beings living amongst them and committing murder, but at least it'll get the cops onto this whole mess.
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-22 08:07pm

To be fair, Connor and Duncan were friends for centuries, with Connor only giving up his life to Duncan so that Duncan would be powerful enough to fight Kell, who was an immortal who both created a team, and had broke rules by killing immortals not playing the game.
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-22 08:19pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-22 08:07pm
To be fair, Connor and Duncan were friends for centuries, with Connor only giving up his life to Duncan so that Duncan would be powerful enough to fight Kell, who was an immortal who both created a team, and had broke rules by killing immortals not playing the game.
Which kind of proves my point.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-22 08:31pm

It also shows that you better be prepared, as there are a lot of Immortals who will kill everyone you care about if you're trying to hide out of The Game, to get you to fight. But there's also Immortals like the Macclouds and Ramirez, who act as mentors for the youngest of the immortals.

Immortals are people, good and bad, with a war with each other.

I'm not sure if they HAVE to play the game, or they return to it because of boredom and separation from the rest of the world.
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-22 08:33pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-22 08:31pm
It also shows that you better be prepared, as there are a lot of Immortals who will kill everyone you care about if you're trying to hide out of The Game, to get you to fight. But there's also Immortals like the Macclouds and Ramirez, who act as mentors for the youngest of the immortals.

Immortals are people, good and bad, with a war with each other.
And if that is the case: if this is not something they MUST do, but something that the CHOOSE to do- then it is malleable.

Ignoring the Game isn't an option, no. But subverting it, challenging it... that is.
I'm not sure if they HAVE to play the game, or they return to it because of boredom and separation from the rest of the world.
That makes me like my idea of trying to use immortality to accomplish long-term political goals even more. It will provide a higher purpose than simply killing people out of a sense of boredom and isolation.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-22 08:48pm

I'll add that the theological, political, and scientific implications of this scenario are absolutely fascinating- far more so, ultimately, than who can take who in a fight.

Theological: Let's see- we have immortality, quantifiable evidence of some sort of Divine power (that the Quickening does not work on Holy Ground), and quantifiable evidence that there is some sort of soul or essence which can survive death and be transferred to another person.

Scientific: Magic is real. Enough said. All the presumptions about how the world works may need to be reevaluated. Medical science may also want to try to study weather immortality is something that can be duplicated.

Political: A society of immortals is going to have some different perogatives than one of mortals. Due to the rarity of immortals and non-hereditary nature of immortality, we don't have to worry about massive overpopulation, thank God (unless science finds a way to duplicate immortality, of course). But we will have to worry about the issues arising from being a powerful and potentially threatening minority group living in secret among ordinary humans (basically, the X-Men scenario), as well as of course the fucking Game.

Its going to be a fairly small-scale society, which makes things like Direct Democracy potentially more feasible. But its also going to have to be a very security-minded society, at least at first. There is also going to be a need for mechanisms to keep wealth and power from being permanently concentrated in the hands a few immortal rulers, and to prevent social stagnation.

From the mortal side of things- the usual upheaval to the status quo that comes with something like an X-Men scenario, or magic being real. Probably religious unrest. Probably governments trying to exploit immortals for military/intelligence applications.

There are also the social implications of being able to speak with people who were actually alive and first-hand witnesses to events hundreds of years ago.

Seriously, a scenario like this is wasted if you just boil it down to "Who beats who in a fight?"
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-22 09:42pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-22 08:48pm
Scientific: Magic is real. Enough said. All the presumptions about how the world works may need to be reevaluated. Medical science may also want to try to study weather immortality is something that can be duplicated.
Do you volunteer to spend eternity as a lab rat? Who could you trust to develop this? Would you fear eventual and eternal incarceration?
Political: A society of immortals is going to have some different perogatives than one of mortals. Due to the rarity of immortals and non-hereditary nature of immortality, we don't have to worry about massive overpopulation, thank God (unless science finds a way to duplicate immortality, of course). But we will have to worry about the issues arising from being a powerful and potentially threatening minority group living in secret among ordinary humans (basically, the X-Men scenario), as well as of course the fucking Game.
Some became conquerors, other philosophers, etc. But you would need to move on, unless you think society will tolerate someone who never ages.
Its going to be a fairly small-scale society, which makes things like Direct Democracy potentially more feasible. But its also going to have to be a very security-minded society, at least at first. There is also going to be a need for mechanisms to keep wealth and power from being permanently concentrated in the hands a few immortal rulers, and to prevent social stagnation.
Do you think there are enough noble immortals left that are selfless enough to not want to rule? Or people in general want to ascend upwardly. Given enough time, what person wouldn't want to ascend to as high as possible? Now what about strong immortal warriors? You would be making a society of almost nothing but rich elites and psychotic warriors. How do you get them to agree to give up their lifelong treasures and power?
From the mortal side of things- the usual upheaval to the status quo that comes with something like an X-Men scenario, or magic being real. Probably religious unrest. Probably governments trying to exploit immortals for military/intelligence applications.

There are also the social implications of being able to speak with people who were actually alive and first-hand witnesses to events hundreds of years ago.

Seriously, a scenario like this is wasted if you just boil it down to "Who beats who in a fight?"
No, please explore the topic, but you also have to remember what survival and a lifelong experience gives to immortals in their views on nation building, society, and the preciousness of human life.

A few might give you a decade before leaving in boredom or collecting your head to take your ideas out of the world.
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-22 10:04pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-22 09:42pm
Do you volunteer to spend eternity as a lab rat? Who could you trust to develop this? Would you fear eventual and eternal incarceration?
I said they'd try. I didn't say I'd volunteer to be experimented on. :) Though theoretically one could conduct experiments in a more human manner than eternal imprisonment.

I suppose it would have to be tested in court, but I can't think of a good reason why the Constitution and its rights and protections shouldn't apply to immortals.
Some became conquerors, other philosophers, etc. But you would need to move on, unless you think society will tolerate someone who never ages.
What society will tolerate varies greatly depending on the society, its ideologies, and what people are accustomed to.
Do you think there are enough noble immortals left that are selfless enough to not want to rule?
There are many reasons one might not want to rule besides nobility and selflessness. Other interests. Laziness. Shyness. Not wanting the responsibility. Desire for absolute power is by no means a universal human instinct.
Or people in general want to ascend upwardly. Given enough time, what person wouldn't want to ascend to as high as possible?
See above.
Now what about strong immortal warriors? You would be making a society of almost nothing but rich elites and psychotic warriors. How do you get them to agree to give up their lifelong treasures and power?
The point is not to recruit the truly psychotic ones. Its to recruit the ones who are sick of the psychotic ones' shit, and put down the psychotics in the name of mutual self-interest and not pointlessly killing people.

Yes, there would be people who would try to game the system, to take absolute power. We have that in the real world too. For a society to function, there has to be some sort of social contract, with mechanisms to enforce and protect it. As long as you can get most people in a society to agree not to violate the rules too blatantly (which the immortals are largely capable of, if they adhere to the rules of the game), then they can handle the ones who try to break the rules.

Of course, it takes time to build that sort of consensus where it doesn't exist, but it took time to do so against slavery, absolute monarchy, theocracy, etc. Its complicated by immortality, because there isn't going to be the same sort of turnover with the older generation being replaced by younger demographics, and the old immortals are likely to be largely set in their ways (though after a few millennia, trying something novel may have some appeal). So I expect I'd have to recruit largely from younger immortals, and fight the older ones.

And I'm not talking about asking wealthy old immortals to give up what they've already acquired. More like agreeing to a mutual truce (with everyone coming down like a ton of bricks on the first person who breaks it), plus a mechanism to prevent the top posts from being held by the same person/people forever. Like having positions rotate periodically between different immortals.
No, please explore the topic, but you also have to remember what survival and a lifelong experience gives to immortals in their views on nation building, society, and the preciousness of human life.

A few might give you a decade before leaving in boredom or collecting your head to take your ideas out of the world.
As I said, I think that I'm going to have to recruit mostly from younger immortals- people who were born in an era where concepts like democracy and human rights were widespread, or at least existed, and who probably still remember what its like to believe you are mortal, and to suddenly find out that you have been thrust into an endless war against your will.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by Simon_Jester » 2018-03-23 02:31pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-22 10:04pm
Do you think there are enough noble immortals left that are selfless enough to not want to rule?
There are many reasons one might not want to rule besides nobility and selflessness. Other interests. Laziness. Shyness. Not wanting the responsibility. Desire for absolute power is by no means a universal human instinct.
Me, well, in the words of Dirty Harry, "man's got to know his limitations."

I have loyalties and obligations. My wife is my highest priority in the world. My wife, through very good and compelling reasons, has problems with dogs. If I were king of the world, and she wanted dogs outlawed, I'd do it (see second sentence).

I'm pretty sure that means I shouldn't be king of the world.
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by Zixinus » 2018-03-23 04:27pm

There is one thing I'd do, if it is feasible: donate organs. They'll just regrow. It can make money if necessary or for charity.
They may live in hiding, but its still preferable to "Murder or be murdered for what I am, because of some dipshit's power fantasy."
That's the thing. It's not just any crazy dipshit's power fantasy. It's some supernatural entity's little game made with humans by using it power to make Immortals.

You are not saying "fuck you" to people. You are very possibly saying it to a god, who technically saved you from death and thus live an immortal life due to it.

If you want to fuck with that god, I'll cheer you. From a distance. Personally, I'd contact the Watchers and study this more and if necessary, devote my immortal life (as long as it may last) to learning just what is behind the Game before I try to fuck with it. The only way to truly end the Game is to go to the source of what is driving it. For example, just how many new immortals are there? If there are constantly new immortals for every new dead one, then the Game is eternal and cannot be won. If there are fewer and fewer, then it means that the Game has some sort of end point.
So I carry a gun and wear Kevlar when I go out.
Something that cheap, relatively speaking, will just not be enough. You are not targeted at random. You are targeted specifically and you will always be a target. Immortals know when other immortals are present, they feel a Buzz that indicates the presence of another. The only way you can live, whether you choose to chop off heads or not, is be able to fight.

You also do not grasp the point of an honorable duel: it is to minimize violence and give both sides a fair fight. It's not actually a supernaturally-enforced part of the Game, it is not enforced by the supernatural power involved like the Sacred Ground rule.
Will there be consequences to forsaking the honorable duel? Probably. But I'm not going to win an honorable duel against people who have had centuries to practice their swordsmanship precisely for engaging in such duels. And if they want to murder people for a power boost, then as far as I'm concerned, they're fair game. Maybe they could use a taste of what war actually is (I'm reminded of Captain Kirk's actions in "A Taste of Armageddon").
Actually, the older immortals probably not only SEEN war but BEEN in wars that you only read about. Or never read about. Where do you think they learned and practiced their centuries of swordsmanship? Remember these are people that died somehow to find out they're immortal, likely in said wars (Duncan McLoad was one). They know things about war that you only know in abstract or not at all. It is very likely that they learned swordsmanship, and other methods of fighting war, well before they became immortal.

Enter this thinking that all the other immortals are savage, sociopathic, idiotic madman mindlessly addicted to the rush of the Quickening will only ensure that the first one will kill you. Those are quickly killed by the wiser, cooler-head, rational and perhaps more decently-human immortals.

This is not some secret club of serial killers that kills helpless bystanders for some made-up bullshit with no proof other than say-so. The honorable duel part is there to deliberately reduce the possibility of innocents dying as part of the Game. No, the immortals kill EACH OTHER as a rule and new invitations are handed out by the driving supernatural force. Many of them don't LIKE the Game but play it because they HAVE to because the aggressors will come to them or just stumble upon them (ask Duncan McLoad, the poor guy can't help finding one every other episode), the Gathering(s) will compel them.

Some of the Immortals may be serial killers but not as a rule, not caused by the supernatural force. The selection process is mostly unknown.

From the wiki, it is possible to turn down a challenge and walk away. One of the longest living immortals mentioned by the wiki was Methos, who actively avoided fighting and only fought when absolutely necessary.
I just think its a sociopathic farce that should be fucked with as thoroughly as possible.
No, it's some vague supernatural entity that's fucking with humans. There's a difference. You are in much, much deeper shit than you think.
The Game is not a divine mandate, is it? There may be genuine supernatural power involved, but there is no fate or divine will decreeing that this power is right and must prevail, is there?
The fact that the Power exists and empowers Immortals, and empowers new Immortals and creates Gatherings, is quite telling that there is some kind of divine force involved. The fact that holy sites are protected indicates this too and actually makes a compelling argument for divine mandate of some kind. Just because angels do not come down singing it out does not mean that the implications are not clear.

You can still say it is wrong to do this, that the gods should not be allowed and try to turn over the board. But if you want to do that you better be prepared to pay the price for it.
Why? Because some sociopaths say it is so?
Because that's what the mechanics of the Game indicate and that is what Immortals know. It was never stated exactly how they know, the TV series and movie (I suspect) deliberately did not go into , but it is very likely that they know as part of the Quickening (the latter is speculation on my part).
How many immortals are there? Because I refuse to believe that in any group of people consisting of more than a small number of persons (like, dozens or hundreds, max.), there will be complete unanimity on something like that unless some outside force is mind-controlling them. There have to be some immortals who were brought up as pacifists, or believers in the rule of law and human rights, and don't instantly forsake those beliefs when they find out about "the Game".
There are very likely are. The TV show actually shown quite a number of them, according to a brief reading of the wiki. The problem is that if you want to remain alive you have to be able to fight, and if necessary play the Game, to survive. Those that commit to the Game will kill those that forsake it. Many immortals try to live out and make a life outside the Game, but the Game will chase them down.
That makes me like my idea of trying to use immortality to accomplish long-term political goals even more
I think you'll be busy staying alive against the older immortals, never mind get as far as to run for President. If you decide to reveal immortals to the world and upset the game, I think it's safe to say you'll be too busy fighting to survive. Not necessarily other immortals, mind you. Remember, you cannot die but otherwise you are mortal and not at all superhuman. You can be buried alive.
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-23 05:19pm

Simon_Jester wrote:
2018-03-23 02:31pm
Me, well, in the words of Dirty Harry, "man's got to know his limitations."

I have loyalties and obligations. My wife is my highest priority in the world. My wife, through very good and compelling reasons, has problems with dogs. If I were king of the world, and she wanted dogs outlawed, I'd do it (see second sentence).

I'm pretty sure that means I shouldn't be king of the world.
Yes, human beings should not be trusted with absolute power. Ever.

Ideally, you try to set up some sort of system with checks and balances, including a big damn hammer to come down on those who don't respect those checks and balances.
Zixinus wrote:
2018-03-23 04:27pm
There is one thing I'd do, if it is feasible: donate organs. They'll just regrow. It can make money if necessary or for charity.
This is a good idea, but risks exposure.

It would, however, provide a potential source of funding for my larger plans, in addition to helping the innocent. Tempting.
That's the thing. It's not just any crazy dipshit's power fantasy. It's some supernatural entity's little game made with humans by using it power to make Immortals.

You are not saying "fuck you" to people. You are very possibly saying it to a god, who technically saved you from death and thus live an immortal life due to it.
This is something I really want to clarify: is "The Game" an invention by humans who are exploiting a quirk of immortal biology, or something mandated by a supreme being that all immortals must participate in or die? Or something in between?

If the second one, then Highlander God is evil, I guess?

But we do see that there is some latitude in how people approach the Game. Alliances are possible. Trying to walk away, or letting someone else take you out to defeat a mutual opponent, are possible. There are certain rules that can be implemented, or broken. Whatever we're dealing with, there seems to at least be somewhat negotiable/mutable.
If you want to fuck with that god, I'll cheer you. From a distance. Personally, I'd contact the Watchers and study this more and if necessary, devote my immortal life (as long as it may last) to learning just what is behind the Game before I try to fuck with it. The only way to truly end the Game is to go to the source of what is driving it. For example, just how many new immortals are there? If there are constantly new immortals for every new dead one, then the Game is eternal and cannot be won. If there are fewer and fewer, then it means that the Game has some sort of end point.
Studying the Game first is not a bad idea. Nor is building an alliance/power base before moving. You have eternity to work with, unless someone assassinates you. You can afford to make sure you have all your ducks in a row before moving.
Something that cheap, relatively speaking, will just not be enough. You are not targeted at random. You are targeted specifically and you will always be a target. Immortals know when other immortals are present, they feel a Buzz that indicates the presence of another. The only way you can live, whether you choose to chop off heads or not, is be able to fight.
:roll:

You insist upon treating "The Game" as some sort of infallible system that can never be subverted and who's rules and traditions must be perfectly adhered to by every immortal. You have not explained to my satisfaction why that must be presumed to be the case.

No, its not a perfect guarantee. Neither is learning how to sword fight, especially against people who've been doing it far longer than I have. There are no guarantees of perfect safety in life. I could stay inside a panic room 24/7, and drop dead of a brain aneurism tomorrow. At least as an immortal, I have only one kind of danger to have to guard against, and while there is no perfect security, every defense helps.
You also do not grasp the point of an honorable duel: it is to minimize violence and give both sides a fair fight. It's not actually a supernaturally-enforced part of the Game, it is not enforced by the supernatural power involved like the Sacred Ground rule.
Right. A "fair fight" against people who've had centuries or millennia to practice their swordsmanship, and have lived that long by being really fucking good at it.

No thanks.

I get the point, and it has some merit in terms of reducing collateral damage. But its also a good way to get myself killed so someone else can eat my essence and get even better at killing people. Again, no thanks.
Actually, the older immortals probably not only SEEN war but BEEN in wars that you only read about. Or never read about. Where do you think they learned and practiced their centuries of swordsmanship? Remember these are people that died somehow to find out they're immortal, likely in said wars (Duncan McLoad was one). They know things about war that you only know in abstract or not at all. It is very likely that they learned swordsmanship, and other methods of fighting war, well before they became immortal.
And this is a reason why I should engage them in a "fair" fight, how?

I mean, I won't be fighting them at all if I can help it. Not directly, and not indirectly until I've done a great deal of research and training, accumulated allies, and stacked the deck as much as possible against them.

But if I do end up having one of the jackasses come after, I'm going to do everything in my power to win. Including cheating.
Enter this thinking that all the other immortals are savage, sociopathic, idiotic madman mindlessly addicted to the rush of the Quickening will only ensure that the first one will kill you. Those are quickly killed by the wiser, cooler-head, rational and perhaps more decently-human immortals.

This is not some secret club of serial killers that kills helpless bystanders for some made-up bullshit with no proof other than say-so. The honorable duel part is there to deliberately reduce the possibility of innocents dying as part of the Game. No, the immortals kill EACH OTHER as a rule and new invitations are handed out by the driving supernatural force. Many of them don't LIKE the Game but play it because they HAVE to because the aggressors will come to them or just stumble upon them (ask Duncan McLoad, the poor guy can't help finding one every other episode), the Gathering(s) will compel them.

Some of the Immortals may be serial killers but not as a rule, not caused by the supernatural force. The selection process is mostly unknown.
I never suggested that their all "savage, sociopathic, idiotic madman mindlessly addicted to the rush of the Quickening". I do not, however, think terribly highly of the conscience of anyone who will participate in a blood sport for any reason other than self-defense after being drafted into it against their will.
From the wiki, it is possible to turn down a challenge and walk away. One of the longest living immortals mentioned by the wiki was Methos, who actively avoided fighting and only fought when absolutely necessary.
Which again goes to show that the game is mutable and negotiable.
No, it's some vague supernatural entity that's fucking with humans. There's a difference. You are in much, much deeper shit than you think.
And yet, by your own admission, this supernatural force will allow the humans involved to walk away, to make alliances, to avoid a fight if they want to. In other words, these people appear to still have free will, and can make choices as to how they relate to "The Game". So without more evidence, I do not accept that I have no choice but to play the Game and kill other immortals, or that other immortals have no choice but to do so.
The fact that the Power exists and empowers Immortals, and empowers new Immortals and creates Gatherings, is quite telling that there is some kind of divine force involved.
Not really. It proves that there is some supernatural phenomenon which results in certain people becoming immortal, and allows some of that power to be transfered to another immortal under certain conditions.

It proves the existence of magic. It does not prove that that magic has any intent, nor what its intent might ultimately be, nor that it cannot be tampered with, nor that it rises to a level that could be considered "divine", unless you have additional evidence which has not yet been provided.
The fact that holy sites are protected indicates this too and actually makes a compelling argument for divine mandate of some kind. Just because angels do not come down singing it out does not mean that the implications are not clear.
That is a very serious point, but it cuts both ways. The fact that the Quickening will not work on Holy Ground could just as well be taken as proof of God's condemnation of the Game, as of God's endorsement of it. I mean, we don't take the whole "crosses repel vampires" thing as proof that God is fond of vampires, do we?
You can still say it is wrong to do this, that the gods should not be allowed and try to turn over the board. But if you want to do that you better be prepared to pay the price for it.
I agree that careful research should precede any major move.
Because that's what the mechanics of the Game indicate and that is what Immortals know. It was never stated exactly how they know, the TV series and movie (I suspect) deliberately did not go into , but it is very likely that they know as part of the Quickening (the latter is speculation on my part).
Then enquiring of multiple unrelated immortals (risky*, I know) is a good idea. If "There can be only one" is some sort of fated decree... well, is there also a mandate about how long that has to take, or how we have to reach that point? Evidently not, or at least there is some flexibility.

Maybe in a hundred thousand years all the immortals will die but one. That doesn't concern me. I'll likely have committed suicide out of boredom by then**, if an assassin doesn't get me first. But as long as I'm here, I'll try to put the Game into indefinite half-time.

*Preferably not enquiring face-to-face.

**Actually, I oppose suicide in real life as a rule, but allowing for some form of sanctioned assisted suicide for immortals might not be a bad idea. I'm hesitant to allow other immortals to be the ones to carry out the "assisted" part due to conflict of interest/coercion issues, but it could provide a way to turn the Game into a more positive force- have sanctioned assisted suicide for elderly immortals who are tired of living, with the Quickening being a way to preserve their memories and knowledge after they pass on.

Allowing even more regulated consensual duels (with both parties having to consent and an impartial moderator/referee) under specific circumstances might be another option, though one I do not care for, and would accept only as a temporary political compromise.
There are very likely are. The TV show actually shown quite a number of them, according to a brief reading of the wiki. The problem is that if you want to remain alive you have to be able to fight, and if necessary play the Game, to survive. Those that commit to the Game will kill those that forsake it. Many immortals try to live out and make a life outside the Game, but the Game will chase them down.
I have no objection to self-defense against an attacker. And part of my reasoning behind "create a nation of immortals who forsake the Game" is to provide collective self-defense against the Gamers.

Kind of like how ancient man might have banded together into fortified settlements in order to provide mutual defense from wild beasts and marauding raiders.
I think you'll be busy staying alive against the older immortals, never mind get as far as to run for President.
Ah, well. I'll have to try to stay alive anyway. Having loftier goals gives me a purpose for the millennia to come, and some greater meaning to my life than "survival for the sake of survival".
If you decide to reveal immortals to the world and upset the game, I think it's safe to say you'll be too busy fighting to survive. Not necessarily other immortals, mind you.
Its not something that's first or second on my list of options. More like the MAD option if everything else has failed, and even then, I'd probably hesitate to use it.

Though, if I ever got my Immortal nation off the ground, I might put that out there to any immortals who tried to attack it: "Here's my proof of the existence of immortality. On my signal it will be sent to the governments of all major world powers. So remember: if I go down, I'm going to drag you fuckers kicking and screaming into the light of day before I go."
Remember, you cannot die but otherwise you are mortal and not at all superhuman. You can be buried alive.
Ugg.

Thanks for the reminder. I think I'll just install a hidden tracking device on my person, by which any allies I acquire can locate me if something like this happens. Maybe two of them in different places, just to be safe.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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