You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by LadyTevar » 2018-03-24 10:07am

TRR --
You bring up God when I mention Holy Ground. I get the feeling you didn't watch the TV show -- I highly suggest it, as this will answer many of your questions, and also show you why your ideas won't work as well as you think.

First -- Holy Ground is Holy Ground is Holy Ground, whether it's Notre Dame or a particular tree by a certain stream in the middle of the Alaskan wilderness. Something about a particular place has drawn human devotion and worship and it has become Holy. Whatever drew the humans there -- God, Leylines, particularly good hunting -- it doesn't matter. If the Quickening is an Immortal's soul, Holy Ground is where all souls find comfort and the safety.
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-03-24 11:00am

Romulan the Republican wrote:Though, if I ever got my Immortal nation off the ground, I might put that out there to any immortals who tried to attack it: "Here's my proof of the existence of immortality. On my signal it will be sent to the governments of all major world powers. So remember: if I go down, I'm going to drag you fuckers kicking and screaming into the light of day before I go."
And what about the Watchers? In particular, James Horton's faction, who will even go as far as to set Immortals against one another to kill all Immortals, and do not honor the holy grpund restriction in their efforts to kill Immortals?
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by Sky Captain » 2018-03-24 01:51pm

I would probably try to cheat the system, I have no interest in participating some psycho game against my will. I don't want to murder other people. I would consider immortality as gift to enjoy life, travel the world and later the Solar system when spaceflight gets sufficiently advanced if I live long enough.

To hell with all that honorable duel bullshit. I have zero sword fighting skills when some of my potential assassins would have centuries of experience so if someone comes after my head all self defense methods are open. First thing to do would be to get a gun license and learn how to shoot as well as possible. Becoming a reasonably good shooter is far easier than becoming excellent in sword fighting skills. My Rules of engagement would be to try to avoid hostile Immortals like plague, but if worst happens then let's see how well immortality works when your skull is shot to pieces and brain splattered across the ground with Desert Eagle or similar high powered handgun.

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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-03-24 04:21pm

I have to wonder: Are headshots as effective as decapitation for killing Immortals?
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by Sky Captain » 2018-03-24 05:31pm

Destroying brain with multiple headshots should be even more effective because decapitation just slices the head off preserving the brain in one peace which then dies from lack of oxygen and blood loss. It's been ages since I watched Highlander so I may miss something, but I don't recall any Immortal recovering from injuries of that magnitude. IIRC Immortality meant you don't die from old age, disease and can recover from normal injuries that would be fatal to ordinary human, but if you have your brain and/or body torn to bits like multiple headshots, taking RPG to chest or falling into woodchipper then you are permanently dead. Decapitation was just preferred method by other Immortals because of that quickening thing.

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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-24 06:46pm

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:
2018-03-24 11:00am
Romulan the Republican wrote:Though, if I ever got my Immortal nation off the ground, I might put that out there to any immortals who tried to attack it: "Here's my proof of the existence of immortality. On my signal it will be sent to the governments of all major world powers. So remember: if I go down, I'm going to drag you fuckers kicking and screaming into the light of day before I go."
And what about the Watchers? In particular, James Horton's faction, who will even go as far as to set Immortals against one another to kill all Immortals, and do not honor the holy grpund restriction in their efforts to kill Immortals?
Frankly, that's another good argument for Immortals putting aside the Game and cooperating in the name of mutual self-defence against a common enemy.
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by Zixinus » 2018-03-24 07:14pm

For the following post I'll divide immortals into three categories:

- Recluse: they may not actually be reclusive socially, but these immortals will not seek out other immortals for challenges and only fight for self-defense. Will resist Gatherings if they can. IIRC, the oldest immortal Methos was one.
- honorable: will seek other immortals but only fight within the bounds of honorable combat (that is, within the rules of the Game). Will respond to Gatherings and possibly challenge other immortals they stumble across. Will likely just walk away if refused.
- Aggressors: those devoted to the Game, will aggressively seek out other immortals and challenge them (either those they just stumble upon or actively search for). Likely to persists if denied a challange.
This is something I really want to clarify: is "The Game" an invention by humans who are exploiting a quirk of immortal biology, or something mandated by a supreme being that all immortals must participate in or die? Or something in between?
The supernatural force created the Game and its participants, the Gatherings compel them to it. All other parts revolve around the human response to this, including the honorable duel part.

The Gatherings, the Buzzing, the holy land rule all indicate that his is not some freakish occurrence of science but an actual entity pushing the Game to happen.
You insist upon treating "The Game" as some sort of infallible system that can never be subverted and who's rules and traditions must be perfectly adhered to by every immortal. You have not explained to my satisfaction why that must be presumed to be the case.
No, I am treating the Game as something that has been running for thousands of years before I was born, through all history and all changes of humanity. It has not been discovered and not been stopped. That fact alone should tell you a great deal. The mechanisms that enforce it and make it happen? They're outside the control of humanity, immortal or otherwise (as far as we know). Its rules are loose and its pressure low, but that would perfectly suit a god who is in no hurry and who is not worried about the game loose game pieces.

Also important, I am approaching this with the idea that not everyone participating in it are idiot, bloodthirsty socipaths by default. I do not assume that I am the first to think that the Game is wrong, that it is immoral and should be stopped. If an argument or clever idea could have, it would have already.

What I am treating it as a big, spacious, leisurely trap by a supernatural force far more powerful than I can imagine. Its confines are all around the Earth and allows you a large variety of tactics/strategies and even avoidance of it. But the supernatural force pressing on the Game will still press it, the Gatherings will be called and new immortals will be made. You will be called. You can hide, probably for centuries if you are smart and careful, but you will be found eventually.

But simply declaring "the Game is stupid, I'm not playing and you shouldn't either" will not stop it or allow you to graciously quit it. There is no quitting, just avoidance and hiding. You're immortal and you are part of the Game. The Game is not some optional construct made by sociopaths for their own enjoyment. You are immortal BECAUSE of the Game and FOR the Game. The now-immortal life you live is because of the Game. That is why you can't escape it, not forever.

Even if every immortal got frozen in ice, not dying or living, unable to pass on the traditions, that just means that the Game will still go on. That is why you can't escape it, not unless you find the divine/supernatural source of immortals and affect it.
A "fair fight" against people who've had centuries or millennia to practice their swordsmanship, and have lived that long by being really fucking good at it.

No thanks.

I get the point, and it has some merit in terms of reducing collateral damage. But its also a good way to get myself killed so someone else can eat my essence and get even better at killing people. Again, no thanks.
Leaving aside that there are limitations of even an immortal on how well you can learn to fight, you still misunderstand the point of the dual. You think the honorable duels is sociopathic. No, NOT confining the Game within the bounds of honorable duels is socipathic. The honorable duels ensure that no innocents (or non-immortals) are involved, only those and that marked by the Game and the collateral damage is minimal (and environmentally actually near-zero during a Quickening, there is some lightning, light-show, some minor fires but not permanent environmental damage). You also forget that for a dual, BOTH parties agree to participate.

Remove the honorable dual part and you have a free-for-all with no restrictions and mayhem, with mortals put into the way of harm for the sake of immortals.
I do not, however, think terribly highly of the conscience of anyone who will participate in a blood sport for any reason other than self-defense after being drafted into it against their will.
EVERYONE is drafted into the Game against their will (perhaps there are exceptions of mortals beheading immortals, but in a minority). Nobody choose it except the divinity/force behind the Game. They just happen. The Gatherings happen, immortals are compelled to participate. They can resist, but that's probably easier said than done especially as the centuries wear on.
More like the MAD option if everything else has failed, and even then, I'd probably hesitate to use it.
Except that it will also en-risk EVERY immortal to human prosecution. As modernity marches on, immortals would be discovered sooner or later anyway, but you doing it on purpose is something that even the reclusive immortals do not want and will kill you to stop you. They have every reason to stop you and... have what reason to listen to you again? Hell, the Watchers will probably stop you just because it would interfere with their work.

This isn't M.A.D., it's just mad. It will also not stop the Game, it won't even really upset, it will only introduce a new bump into it and complicate the Game.
And yet, by your own admission, this supernatural force will allow the humans involved to walk away, to make alliances, to avoid a fight if they want to. In other words, these people appear to still have free will, and can make choices as to how they relate to "The Game". So without more evidence, I do not accept that I have no choice but to play the Game and kill other immortals, or that other immortals have no choice but to do so.
You have no choice because you have no real power to stop it. The mechanisms that drive the Game are beyond your control. You can't stop Quickenings, you can't stop Gatherings or the creation of new immortals. Even revealing immortals to the world will not stop it. Other immortals have no reason to take whatever you say seriously, whether they're reclusive, honorable or aggressors.

You're in a gladiator death-pit the size of Earth where not even death is an escape, where either you fight or be killed be those that do.
I have no objection to self-defense against an attacker. And part of my reasoning behind "create a nation of immortals who forsake the Game" is to provide collective self-defense against the Gamers.
Except that the reclusive, which your "nation" would most likely be filled with (leaving aside that they probably won't number enough to fill a decent-sized village) rely on anonymity for their safety. You can't really tell an immortal apart from an ordinary, young person until you killed them (as far as we know). For another immortal to find them, they'd need to be physically near.

Putting them together in one place, even just creating a network with each other? Congratulations, you just handed these people to the aggressors on a golden platter whereas beforehand they'd had to search the Earth. They are gathered, their names and faces (perhaps their very DNA) will be on a list to search for.

This is not to mention that other immortals who have lived at least a lifetime will have no reason to trust you or take someone younger, more inexperienced than them seriously.
Thanks for the reminder. I think I'll just install a hidden tracking device on my person, by which any allies I acquire can locate me if something like this happen
To what end and to do what? An aggressor will cut off your head as soon as you're down. All you're doing is trying to push mortals into the Game because you refuse to participate.
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-03-24 11:08pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-24 06:46pm
U.P. Cinnabar wrote:
2018-03-24 11:00am
Romulan the Republican wrote:Though, if I ever got my Immortal nation off the ground, I might put that out there to any immortals who tried to attack it: "Here's my proof of the existence of immortality. On my signal it will be sent to the governments of all major world powers. So remember: if I go down, I'm going to drag you fuckers kicking and screaming into the light of day before I go."
And what about the Watchers? In particular, James Horton's faction, who will even go as far as to set Immortals against one another to kill all Immortals, and do not honor the holy grpund restriction in their efforts to kill Immortals?
Frankly, that's another good argument for Immortals putting aside the Game and cooperating in the name of mutual self-defence against a common enemy.
Or, for the Immortals to use Horton's goons to do their dirty work for them, especially since they can kill Immortals on holy ground, where other Immortals can't get to them.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by Sky Captain » 2018-03-25 02:16pm

Zixinus wrote:
2018-03-24 07:14pm
Except that it will also en-risk EVERY immortal to human prosecution. As modernity marches on, immortals would be discovered sooner or later anyway, but you doing it on purpose is something that even the reclusive immortals do not want and will kill you to stop you. They have every reason to stop you and... have what reason to listen to you again? Hell, the Watchers will probably stop you just because it would interfere with their work.
Actually in Highlander timeline Immortals already should have been discovered. All it would take is an immortal getting involved in severe accident like high speed car crash causing serious injuries or first death in a place where ambulance would arrive quickly only to be watched by surprised doctors as he unnaturally heals himself from injuries that would require months in a hospital or gets revived from death.

Another possibility is some medical scientist suffers non natural death and discovers he is Immortal. In this case the scientific curiosity and potential groundbreaking discoveries could take preference over any Game. Or he could reveal his abilities to the research institution where he works well before he meets another Immortal and is introduced into Game.

Immortal sentenced for life in prison likely would be discovered. Hmm, this guy is in our prison for 40 years yet he still looks 20 years old. Something weird is going on here, maybe we should run some medical checks on him and notify higher authorities. If government intelligence agencies finds out what is going on the Game and all, they would probably shit a collective brick because the implications are some supernatural entity/advanced aliens are actively meddling with humans for some unknown, possibly hostile goal.

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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by Zixinus » 2018-03-25 03:53pm

All it would take is an immortal getting involved in severe accident like high speed car crash causing serious injuries or first death in a place where ambulance would arrive quickly only to be watched by surprised doctors as he unnaturally heals himself from injuries that would require months in a hospital or gets revived from death.
IIRC from snatches I saw from TV and such, immortals don't heal that fast. They can appear dead and be medically dead for some time, only to wake up much later. That's what happened to McLoad in the original film. He was actually brought back for a funeral. This is also why I emphasize that while immortals are immortals, they're not invincible. They can rise from the dead* but Wolverine they're not.

Most immortals would figure out that rising from the dead is bound to cause a fear reaction they don't want to ride out, so they're savvy enough to disappear. Then the mystery becomes "who stole the body?", which is very suspicious but not really proof of immortals.

Unless of course the biometrics of that body, or just the photo of the face, appears again on a living person later. This is the real reason immortals are doomed to be discovered in the modern world: stored media. Before photographs, it was near-impossible to objectively prove a previously dead person is still alive (if that person denies it). What would you use as proof, birthmarks that are coincidental, drawings of faces that can be easily dismissed, eyewitnesses that can be denied? Photographs can be dismissed as coincidence, could be singularly destroyed so there was some leeway and cameras were not wide-spread until the latter half of the 20th century. Today everyone has a camera, a paper trail from birth to death that is increasingly more complex to fake and government agencies collect and store data on everyone as a matter of course.

It does raise the question whether immortals can undergo plastic surgery and remove fingerprints.
Immortal sentenced for life in prison likely would be discovered. Hmm, this guy is in our prison for 40 years yet he still looks 20 years old. Something weird is going on here, maybe we should run some medical checks on him and notify higher authorities.
You would be surprised how careless prisons can be. I would not be surprised if several immortals spent decades or even a century in a prison, only to be not really noticed. "He holds up pretty well" and as the prison staff rotates, nobody notices.

Of course, immortals being immortals, would naturally just escape (they can risk doing things that most prisoners can't) or just get out by playing dead. They take the body out of prison, immortal rises from the dead, body disappears and immortal walks away free. If its a mass grave, nobody cares.

Of course it does raise the question of what happens if an immortal is incinerated. Would they properly die or would their immortality bring them back to the ashes? Like coming back from the dead with a bullet to the brains. There is also the question of starvation, I'm thinking of a Gulag or similar prison. Immortals eat. Would their immortality give them enough energy to move or just keep them just enough of alive for them to suffer but be unable to move?
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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by LaCroix » 2018-03-26 09:46am

A few points of clarification:

Immortals can feel pain and do get wounded. They just heal very fast, within seconds, even from the most damaging wounds. But they go down, even get briefly unconscious by a fatal hit (we have time spans of seconds to minutes in depictions where someone got wounded in a duel but spared due to mercy or external interruptions).

They can get knocked out by a hit over the head.

We never saw an immortal getting a hand cut off and regenerate, as far as I recall. So most likely they cannot regrow a missing part. They can hold it to the wound to reconnect if they do so before they heal, but that is a very brief window. Organ donation is most likely not a wise idea.

They die when the head is no longer "firmly" connected. Massive brain damage is not sure to kill them. The Kurgan dies even thouch his head is still mostly attached, and they even joke that Ramires' first cut did not go deep enough.

If a immortal dies due to external hit with no other immortal nearby (who would receive the quickening in that case - I think there is one immortal who got severely traumatised when a friend got accidentally decapitated close to him and he absorbed his lifeforce (see later reference below)) or on holy ground, the quickening dissipates into the earth.

The quickening transfers the whole lifeforce and memories/abilities of the foe. You pretty much experience his life. You will be a much better swordsman after it, and might even pick up new skills/languages. Some immmortals even changed their whole personality after especially traumatising quickenings (absorbing the memories of a sadistic psycopath, or a good friend).

You will feel the presence of another immortal (about 30 meters range, it varies for dramatic purposed in depictions, maybe even depending on the power of the immortal). This event will wake you up and even mostly heal you up as a boost to make sure you are fit for the fight. You can even discern the immortal by the feel of him, if you know him well.

There is some low-level telepathic connection/ strenght absorbtion ability regarding animals.

The thing about only using swords is a gentlemen's agreement. It would be trivial to just riddle somebody with arrows or bullets while approaching (even though each shot would only pause them for a few seconds until cumulative effects get them knocked out for a few seconds to heal). They are fully aware of modern automatic weaponry and the effects, which are quite limited. We see McLeod take a burst of MP40 into the back, fall down and jump up to kill the Nazi within seconds.(It might also be that the event of approach will remove the damage you caused while being outside the range, which might be a problem for that tactic.)

Also, the duels are very rarely a thing of happenstance. Mostly, chance meetings do not lead to an immediate fight. It's usually a thing of one immortal stalking and hunting down another for a long time, learning about his prey and then striking when they have laid a trap. They would find out about your weaponry, as a priority, and you wearing a gun would most likely result in them preparing for this, and using one, as well...
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by LaCroix » 2018-03-26 11:09am

looking up some trivia:

The immortal Zachary Blaine used a gun to slow down his adversaries.

The quickening is extremely draining, and the effect lasts long, so some immortals travel in pairs or groups to have a backup as insurance - If someone challenges one of them to a fight and wins, the friend will then take revenge by taking the head of the victor while he is helpless...

The episode "Little tin god" implies that a fight and resulting quickening on holy ground resulted in the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius and the destruction of the city.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by Sky Captain » 2018-03-26 03:13pm

LaCroix wrote:
2018-03-26 09:46am
A few points of clarification:

Immortals can feel pain and do get wounded. They just heal very fast, within seconds, even from the most damaging wounds. But they go down, even get briefly unconscious by a fatal hit (we have time spans of seconds to minutes in depictions where someone got wounded in a duel but spared due to mercy or external interruptions).

They can get knocked out by a hit over the head.

We never saw an immortal getting a hand cut off and regenerate, as far as I recall. So most likely they cannot regrow a missing part. They can hold it to the wound to reconnect if they do so before they heal, but that is a very brief window. Organ donation is most likely not a wise idea.

They die when the head is no longer "firmly" connected. Massive brain damage is not sure to kill them. The Kurgan dies even thouch his head is still mostly attached, and they even joke that Ramires' first cut did not go deep enough.
A 0.5 caliber rifle bullet hit to a head or neck area probably counts as head no longer firmly attached or head disintegrated. A 0.5 caliber pistol bullet has less energy, but emptying whole magazine or several into a head and neck would have the same general effect.
LaCroix wrote:
2018-03-26 09:46am
The thing about only using swords is a gentlemen's agreement. It would be trivial to just riddle somebody with arrows or bullets while approaching (even though each shot would only pause them for a few seconds until cumulative effects get them knocked out for a few seconds to heal). They are fully aware of modern automatic weaponry and the effects, which are quite limited. We see McLeod take a burst of MP40 into the back, fall down and jump up to kill the Nazi within seconds.
It means that small bullets into a body are ineffective. If Nazi had shot his whole magazine into a head and neck area it likely would have done more damage. Obviously he never expected someone after taking a burst from automatic weapon to jump on him.
Zixinus wrote:
2018-03-25 03:53pm
Unless of course the biometrics of that body, or just the photo of the face, appears again on a living person later. This is the real reason immortals are doomed to be discovered in the modern world: stored media. Before photographs, it was near-impossible to objectively prove a previously dead person is still alive (if that person denies it). What would you use as proof, birthmarks that are coincidental, drawings of faces that can be easily dismissed, eyewitnesses that can be denied? Photographs can be dismissed as coincidence, could be singularly destroyed so there was some leeway and cameras were not wide-spread until the latter half of the 20th century. Today everyone has a camera, a paper trail from birth to death that is increasingly more complex to fake and government agencies collect and store data on everyone as a matter of course.
Exactly, in modern world there are just too much general surveillance for Immortals to remain undetected. Implications of whole thing being discovered are huge. Essentially some supernatural entity or extremely advanced aliens are running some sort of long term experiment on Earth.
It does raise the question whether immortals can undergo plastic surgery and remove fingerprints.
Maybe would work somewhat. However DNA would be impossible to fake and detailed analysis maybe would reveal some quirks related to immortality like unnaturally old age or something.
Zixinus wrote:
2018-03-25 03:53pm
Of course it does raise the question of what happens if an immortal is incinerated. Would they properly die or would their immortality bring them back to the ashes?
A total destruction of body likely is permanent death, after all neck and head are destroyed too. A severe burns fatal to normal human should be survivable.

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Re: You become an Immortal (Highlander RAR)

Post by mr friendly guy » 2018-03-27 09:34am

Zixinus wrote:
2018-03-22 02:36pm
EDIT: I looked it up and Immortals that have forsaken the game actually only happaned in the animated series, where they agreed to forsake it to help humanity after an apocalypse. So outside of that, it isn't a thing. You're immortal, you are in the Game and you ARE game.
In highlander Endgame its revealed a bunch of watches take willing immortals to a secret location so they cannot participate in the game. After all, the worry is that the winning and final immortal gets vast power and the watchers fear they may rule end up ruling mortals. So if a bunch of immortals are still alive to the end of time, well no problems then.

Its possible you could convince the Watchers to do something like this, only perhaps living in a much more comfortable situation than that which was displayed in that movie.
Even if every immortal got frozen in ice, not dying or living, unable to pass on the traditions, that just means that the Game will still go on. That is why you can't escape it, not unless you find the divine/supernatural source of immortals and affect it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDGon3ppy2U

Yep, they find it in Highlander the Source. The movie sucked btw, but they found the source of the power of immortals.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to.
Australia, Canada, China, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.

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