Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by GuppyShark » 2018-03-02 07:50pm

Metropolis police flew around in jetpacks and shot rayguns at Doomsday, so it's not a given.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-02 07:57pm

GuppyShark wrote:
2018-03-02 07:50pm
Metropolis police flew around in jetpacks and shot rayguns at Doomsday, so it's not a given.
Buffyverse had magic become public knowledge in the post-series comics (and it had an "open secret" vibe by the end of the TV series as well, with a visiting musician in Sunnydale complaining that they hate playing vampire towns, and "Angel" having the DA's office using counter magic against Wolfram and Hart).

Dresden Files is heavily hinting at it coming into the open, if Butcher ever finishes the series.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-03-03 12:37am

Q99 wrote:
2018-03-02 06:42am
I am impressed how much talk there's been of Killmonger's motives, and I've only seen a few people not 'get it'.
Oh, his motives are 100% understandable, but he's still a murderous asshole. He can't even direct his personal revenge plots appropriately; T'challa didn't kill his father, have anything to do with killing his father, and didn't even have knowledge of his father's death until the day before.

Saw it for the second time tonight. One small plot hole: T'challa could have defused the whole Killmonger thing right there in the throne room by simply demanding to know why he'd rescued Klaue from him in Korea. That revelation would have undercut Killmonger's entire base of support.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Lord Revan » 2018-03-03 02:13am

Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-03-03 12:37am
Q99 wrote:
2018-03-02 06:42am
I am impressed how much talk there's been of Killmonger's motives, and I've only seen a few people not 'get it'.
Oh, his motives are 100% understandable, but he's still a murderous asshole. He can't even direct his personal revenge plots appropriately; T'challa didn't kill his father, have anything to do with killing his father, and didn't even have knowledge of his father's death until the day before.

Saw it for the second time tonight. One small plot hole: T'challa could have defused the whole Killmonger thing right there in the throne room by simply demanding to know why he'd rescued Klaue from him in Korea. That revelation would have undercut Killmonger's entire base of support.
I've yet to see the film but it could be that T'challa has a bit of a "all outsiders are the same" mentality, he didn't connect the dots that Killmonger was the same man who rescued Klaue in Korea.

What I mean is that T'challa saw Killmonger as just a mook working for Klaue or who ever wanted Klaue rescued and not really worth his attention more then what was needed to get Klaue back.

That said I've not seen the film and could be totally wrong about it but it would make sense.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Q99 » 2018-03-03 06:32am

I mean, he was wearing a mask in Korea, so he really wouldn't look the same (granted, an African mask, but still, full face concealing). And I'm pretty sure Killmonger could've spun it, "To put him in the ground and not just talk to him like your American buddies," had T'challa picked up, but there was enough obscuring him that not making the connection makes sense.
Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-03-03 12:37am
Oh, his motives are 100% understandable, but he's still a murderous asshole. He can't even direct his personal revenge plots appropriately; T'challa didn't kill his father, have anything to do with killing his father, and didn't even have knowledge of his father's death until the day before.
Yea, but the personal was just part of it, and sins of the father and all that. T'challa was his proxy for all the Wakandas who turned his back on the world, more-so than most due to being the son of his father's killer.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2018-03-03 06:34am

Lord Revan wrote:
2018-03-03 02:13am


I've yet to see the film but it could be that T'challa has a bit of a "all outsiders are the same" mentality, he didn't connect the dots that Killmonger was the same man who rescued Klaue in Korea.

What I mean is that T'challa saw Killmonger as just a mook working for Klaue or who ever wanted Klaue rescued and not really worth his attention more then what was needed to get Klaue back.

That said I've not seen the film and could be totally wrong about it but it would make sense.
No, that doesn't fly. Part of the reason the rescue is a big deal is that T'challa saw and recognized Killmonger's ring, which is a family heirloom. This gets T'challa asking questions about things that have been kept secret. Rogue's right, bringing up Korea would have been a good play because Killmonger's play is based on Wakandan tradition and being backed by W'kabi, who just happens to hate Klaue like poison.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Gandalf » 2018-03-03 08:24am

Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-03-03 12:37am
Q99 wrote:
2018-03-02 06:42am
I am impressed how much talk there's been of Killmonger's motives, and I've only seen a few people not 'get it'.
Oh, his motives are 100% understandable, but he's still a murderous asshole. He can't even direct his personal revenge plots appropriately; T'challa didn't kill his father, have anything to do with killing his father, and didn't even have knowledge of his father's death until the day before.
I took it to be that N'Jobu wasn't so much killed by T'Chaka, but the King. So when T'Challa becomes head of state, he inherits all previous grudges as well.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Lord Revan » 2018-03-03 11:16am

Imperial Overlord wrote:
2018-03-03 06:34am
Lord Revan wrote:
2018-03-03 02:13am


I've yet to see the film but it could be that T'challa has a bit of a "all outsiders are the same" mentality, he didn't connect the dots that Killmonger was the same man who rescued Klaue in Korea.

What I mean is that T'challa saw Killmonger as just a mook working for Klaue or who ever wanted Klaue rescued and not really worth his attention more then what was needed to get Klaue back.

That said I've not seen the film and could be totally wrong about it but it would make sense.
No, that doesn't fly. Part of the reason the rescue is a big deal is that T'challa saw and recognized Killmonger's ring, which is a family heirloom. This gets T'challa asking questions about things that have been kept secret. Rogue's right, bringing up Korea would have been a good play because Killmonger's play is based on Wakandan tradition and being backed by W'kabi, who just happens to hate Klaue like poison.
As I said I've not seen the movie yet so I didn't know about the ring. Seeing as there's something that not only makes T'challa recognize Killmonger as something else then a random mook but also links Killmonger to Wakanda, yeah that's a plot hole.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-03-03 11:49am

Lord Revan wrote:
2018-03-03 11:16am
Imperial Overlord wrote:
2018-03-03 06:34am
Lord Revan wrote:
2018-03-03 02:13am


I've yet to see the film but it could be that T'challa has a bit of a "all outsiders are the same" mentality, he didn't connect the dots that Killmonger was the same man who rescued Klaue in Korea.

What I mean is that T'challa saw Killmonger as just a mook working for Klaue or who ever wanted Klaue rescued and not really worth his attention more then what was needed to get Klaue back.

That said I've not seen the film and could be totally wrong about it but it would make sense.
No, that doesn't fly. Part of the reason the rescue is a big deal is that T'challa saw and recognized Killmonger's ring, which is a family heirloom. This gets T'challa asking questions about things that have been kept secret. Rogue's right, bringing up Korea would have been a good play because Killmonger's play is based on Wakandan tradition and being backed by W'kabi, who just happens to hate Klaue like poison.
As I said I've not seen the movie yet so I didn't know about the ring. Seeing as there's something that not only makes T'challa recognize Killmonger as something else then a random mook but also links Killmonger to Wakanda, yeah that's a plot hole.
I mean, recognizing him as Wakandan is what made the entire scheme work. If he weren't acknowledged as Wakandan of royal blood, he wouldn't have been eligible to challenge for the throne. But leaving out that he had rescued an enemy of the state from Wakandan justice just so he could kill him himself in a bid for support is just stupid on T'challa's part; Killmonger betrayed Wakanda at that point just as his father had by working with Klaue. Say so, and his entire plan to take over the country falls flat right there.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Q99 » 2018-03-03 11:06pm

Except he really could point out “I did so just to kill him and bring his body to Wakanda. Also he was in US custody at the time, why didn’t you take him first? You had your shot and blew it so I stepped up.”

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-03-04 09:15am

Indeed- one is the son of a killer, the other the son of a traitor so the "sins of the father" concept goes both ways.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-03-04 09:58am

Q99 wrote:
2018-03-03 11:06pm
Except he really could point out “I did so just to kill him and bring his body to Wakanda. Also he was in US custody at the time, why didn’t you take him first? You had your shot and blew it so I stepped up.”
Their communication devices recorded everything, including Klaue's clear familiarity with his rescuers. That dog won't hunt, not if anyone who went on the mission cares to press the case.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Coop D'etat » 2018-03-04 04:59pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-03-03 12:37am
Q99 wrote:
2018-03-02 06:42am
I am impressed how much talk there's been of Killmonger's motives, and I've only seen a few people not 'get it'.
Oh, his motives are 100% understandable, but he's still a murderous asshole. He can't even direct his personal revenge plots appropriately; T'challa didn't kill his father, have anything to do with killing his father, and didn't even have knowledge of his father's death until the day before.

Saw it for the second time tonight. One small plot hole: T'challa could have defused the whole Killmonger thing right there in the throne room by simply demanding to know why he'd rescued Klaue from him in Korea. That revelation would have undercut Killmonger's entire base of support.
While you're right, I'm not sure I'd necessarily term it as a plot hole as such, as it can be justified as a suboptimal move consistent with T'Challa's established character. He tends to be tactiturn and not particularly politically minded so taking a relatively obvious step to undermine his opponent might not occur to him in the heat of the moment. Whereas affirming his position as king by acting like a warrior and accepting the challange is more within his wheelhouse. I read it as him trying to do the same play that worked against M'Baku, beat him in combat and thus subborn submission to his right to leadership. At that point of his life, I'm not sure the concept that he might lose a fair fight against Killmonger is at the forefront of his mind. Also tradition gives Erik the right to challenge him, and T'Challa is the sort who respects that kind of thing.

This fits into the general point about T'Challa. He's a fundamentally good man, but that makes it harder for him to be a king, because being a king requires him to do things that don't come naturally to him.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Mr Bean » 2018-03-04 10:28pm

Watched it, despite being super sick I enjoyed the movie even if I felt like it was about 15 minutes to long. Shame about the DC habit of killing off villains as I wish Prince Vegeta had survived the movie. That said the amount of Vibranium used in the movie is surprising to the point even the South Korean car had Vibranium body and... transparent Vibranium windows?

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-03-05 09:11am

Mr Bean wrote:
2018-03-04 10:28pm
Watched it, despite being super sick I enjoyed the movie even if I felt like it was about 15 minutes to long. Shame about the DC habit of killing off villains as I wish Prince Vegeta had survived the movie. That said the amount of Vibranium used in the movie is surprising to the point even the South Korean car had Vibranium body and... transparent Vibranium windows?
I noticed that, and how the drivers of said car referred to bullets as being primitive- which sounds stupid until you see the energy-based weapons their fighter craft are equipped with.

The Killmonger plot did reveal the flaw in the whole "asskicking equals authority" thing they had going on in that whoever does better in single combat becomes king, rather than whoever would actually do the best job. I also thought that the priest's actions were a textbook example of a Senseless Sacrifice, since Killmonger just murdered him anyway.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Q99 » 2018-03-06 05:30am

Zuri, like most else, was thinking in terms of old rules of honor and stuff.
Mr Bean wrote:
2018-03-04 10:28pm
Watched it, despite being super sick I enjoyed the movie even if I felt like it was about 15 minutes to long. Shame about the DC habit of killing off villains as I wish Prince Vegeta had survived the movie. That said the amount of Vibranium used in the movie is surprising to the point even the South Korean car had Vibranium body and... transparent Vibranium windows?
Yea, they put small amounts of vibranium in a ton of stuff. They had a mountain of it!

I do wonder if they retrieved the car. The wreck itself is valuable- not just for the vibranium but intelligence-wise!.. though I guess the remote operating system is fairly trashed.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Lord Revan » 2018-03-06 06:58am

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
2018-03-05 09:11am
Mr Bean wrote:
2018-03-04 10:28pm
Watched it, despite being super sick I enjoyed the movie even if I felt like it was about 15 minutes to long. Shame about the DC habit of killing off villains as I wish Prince Vegeta had survived the movie. That said the amount of Vibranium used in the movie is surprising to the point even the South Korean car had Vibranium body and... transparent Vibranium windows?
I noticed that, and how the drivers of said car referred to bullets as being primitive- which sounds stupid until you see the energy-based weapons their fighter craft are equipped with.

The Killmonger plot did reveal the flaw in the whole "asskicking equals authority" thing they had going on in that whoever does better in single combat becomes king, rather than whoever would actually do the best job. I also thought that the priest's actions were a textbook example of a Senseless Sacrifice, since Killmonger just murdered him anyway.
there's a reason why no major real life culture ever had a pure "asskicking equals authority" approach, the leader was always the guy who could balance being a great asskicker and an effective leader (for the standards of said era and culture).

Essentially a good leader would not need to worry about challenges too much, because everyone knew that any warrior better then the current leader would be lousy leader and thus it wouldn't be in anyone's intrest (including the better warrior's) to oust the current leader. Besides into those cultures there where more often then not very specific rules as to what was an acceptble challenge or transfer of power.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Q99 » 2018-03-06 10:49am

The key factor is who's allowed to challenge- the leadership of the other tribes, and other members of the royal family. An outsider can only challenge if they're a royal- and even then, if they don't have a policy that appeals to the tribe, I expect a rapid counter-challenge to end things. Killmonger got away with it because, one, he was not merely an exile royal, but came with Wakanda's #1 greatest enemy's body, earning him the support of W'Kabi, leader of the border defenses and his tribe. Having the firm backing of at least one tribe- and possibly tentative backing of the others (it was, iirc, the River tribe representative who was the one to move and ask his name, thus suggesting they were considering it)- meant Killmonger had political support as well.

So, for the most part, warriors will only even be put forward by tribes if they'd be good political leaders, and/or be from the royal family and presumably trained to lead. If a Royal who was a poor leader went forward, again, I expect a rapid counter-challenge, there's very low odds they'd be able to court the kind of support Killmonger did.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Gandalf » 2018-03-06 03:13pm

Isn't the idea of violence determining legitimacy in government the foundation of more than a few countries?

The difference in Wakanda is that instead of the genocidal campaigns of expansion to raise a flag, candidates for monarch duke it out.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by LadyTevar » 2018-03-06 07:39pm

About the cars -- it seems they only sent one car over, the other was 'hijacked' by Shuuri with the remote. It still may have been bullet-proof due if it belonged to any of the casino-goers, as they all seemed to be BigNames of the Underworld.
Or, they may have stolen Agent Ross' vehicle. Still, the car chases were awesome, and showed General Okoye and Nakia to be just as capable and dangerous as T'Chala.

Then we come to the end battle. First, the way vibranium was woken into the cloaks was fascinating. Instant shieldwall from W'kabi's tribe, any time they needed it. As the Border protectors, it made perfect sense to have tech hidden in plain sight. They were also the 'farmers and herders' that were Wakanda's face to the world. Nice foreshadowing with both the rhino in the pen, and Okoye calling W'kabi 'my love'. Rhino charge was a brutal thing, and I noticed at the end when T'Chala entered the throne room there were male guards in place of some of the Dore Majaie. Far too many of them had been seen flung through the air as the rhinos came through.

M'Baku was one of the villains in the old comics, the White Gorilla v/s the Black Panther in a conflict going back to when their tribes argued over which totem to follow. It was good they used him as the antagonist T'Chala had to face to become King, and then later as an ally T'Chala had to win over was a nice change. Not surprised he replaced W'kabi on the Grand Council.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Q99 » 2018-03-10 06:00am

Yea, I really liked how lowkey the tech was until used. The spears, similarly, are frighten people off with spears... unless a sonic blast is needed.

And, sure, having armored rhinos charge out if reinforcements are needed isn't *subtle*, but it still doesn't scream 'supertech'.



Btw, it's looking like Black Panther is solidly outpacing *Avengers*. Nice!

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by mr friendly guy » 2018-03-11 08:36pm

Wow, Black Panther has hit a 1 billion mark, and we don't even have China figures yet. And I still haven't seen it.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-12 04:29pm

China doesn't like it, as it's 'too black'. Quartz
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Napoleon the Clown » 2018-03-13 01:22am

I'd like to point out that when Killmonger first ordered the Heart-Shaped Herb garden burned he was met with verbal resistance. He then physically threatened the person who was trying to talk him out, so everyone in the room concluded that staying alive meant burning the Herb. As to what everyone else would think...
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Q99 » 2018-03-13 08:58am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-12 04:29pm
China doesn't like it, as it's 'too black'. Quartz
Some don't, but it still made 60m so I wouldn't read too much into Chinese racism from this.

Also, hey, they're seeing something new. Hopefully things will change!

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