Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Civil War Man » 2018-02-19 11:13pm

So it looks like Shuri is the real breakout character here. She could actually have an interesting affect on the real world, too. We are pretty heavily influenced by our pop culture. If Nichelle Nichols can inspire black people and women to become astronauts (and in some cases literally recruit them for NASA), Hunger Games can increase female participation in archery, Indiana Jones can increase interest in archaeology, etc, then Shuri could help inspire more black women to pursue STEM fields.
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Just saw it this evening. It was good. I was kind of surprised that murdering the priest in the middle of the ritual challenge didn't invalidate the whole damn thing, though.
To be fair, Zuri did offer himself up as a sacrifice. The ritual rules might have allowed for something like that for all we know.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-02-20 01:07am

I don't know, but it seems to me that if the ritual rules allowed for him to offer himself as a sacrifice in the stead of the losing party in the challenge, then accepting the sacrifice should mean sparing the losing party; otherwise the sacrifice is meaningless. I'm pretty sure that was just straight murder.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Q99 » 2018-02-24 11:27am

I just saw it, great film!

Honestly it was barely a superhero film, T'challa was almost entirely focused on Wakandan stuff- which is not uncommon with the comics. Klaw and Killmonger were both two of Marvel's top villains, the story was solid and well done, the action was awesome, Okayo, T'Challa, Shuri, M'Baku.... such a great cast.

I wouldn't call Shuri the breakout character before so many characters would be 'breakout' and the word doesn't work if *everyone* is breakout ^^ But yea, she's quite likely the most important character.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-02-25 11:07am

Not sure how anyone can dislike Civil War, but anyway...

I just got back from seeing it and I liked it, I just knew that we'd see Bucky again given he'd been put on ice at the end of CW- it was telling that they felt the need to introduce him by name in case the audience didn't immediately recognise him. Even though it was in a post-credits scene and casual viewers don't usually hang around until the very end. Hopefully this means they've figured out how to break HYDRA's conditioning, though the majority of the film was set a week after CW so they figured it out pretty quick.

Kalue was nice to have back, as well as explaining how he got hold of his Vibranium, as well as tying in to AoU. He claimed his arm cannon was Wakandan, even though it sounded a lot like a Stark weapon- I imagine Tony will be VERY interested in the existence of a technologically advanced nation that's been around the whole time.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Gandalf » 2018-02-25 03:13pm

I wager everyone will be interested. An African nation is suddenly known to have an absurd supply of the most valuable substance ever, and a sufficient tech base to fuck up any major country. I suspect an upcoming G8 plan to bring democracy to Wakanda, and maybe some handwringing about their WMD program.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-25 05:12pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-02-25 03:13pm
I wager everyone will be interested. An African nation is suddenly known to have an absurd supply of the most valuable substance ever, and a sufficient tech base to fuck up any major country. I suspect an upcoming G8 plan to bring democracy to Wakanda, and maybe some handwringing about their WMD program.
I doubt you'd be able to get the whole G8 to agree on something as controversial as an invasion, if that's what you mean. Russia, China, and the US will all want as many pieces of the pie as possible for themselves, and all use proxies because acting overtly against each other risks it going nuclear.

Of course, that's in the real world.

In the Marvel-verse, governments don't decide things- slug-outs between super-powered individuals do. So the question is, who's got the most bad ass heroes?
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Gandalf » 2018-02-25 06:04pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-25 05:12pm
Gandalf wrote:
2018-02-25 03:13pm
I wager everyone will be interested. An African nation is suddenly known to have an absurd supply of the most valuable substance ever, and a sufficient tech base to fuck up any major country. I suspect an upcoming G8 plan to bring democracy to Wakanda, and maybe some handwringing about their WMD program.
I doubt you'd be able to get the whole G8 to agree on something as controversial as an invasion, if that's what you mean. Russia, China, and the US will all want as many pieces of the pie as possible for themselves, and all use proxies because acting overtly against each other risks it going nuclear.

Of course, that's in the real world.
You don't need to invade a country to exploit the shit out of it. All they would need is to sponsor someone in a coup or seizure of power. That person agrees to share vibranium and technology with G8 stakeholders who all make ungodly amounts of money.

Or the US just invades on its own for Iraq based reasons.
In the Marvel-verse, governments don't decide things- slug-outs between super-powered individuals do. So the question is, who's got the most bad ass heroes?
Sure they do. They just get stymied by superpowered individuals who break laws but keep getting let off because reasons. :P
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-02-25 07:06pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-02-25 06:04pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-25 05:12pm
Gandalf wrote:
2018-02-25 03:13pm
I wager everyone will be interested. An African nation is suddenly known to have an absurd supply of the most valuable substance ever, and a sufficient tech base to fuck up any major country. I suspect an upcoming G8 plan to bring democracy to Wakanda, and maybe some handwringing about their WMD program.
I doubt you'd be able to get the whole G8 to agree on something as controversial as an invasion, if that's what you mean. Russia, China, and the US will all want as many pieces of the pie as possible for themselves, and all use proxies because acting overtly against each other risks it going nuclear.

Of course, that's in the real world.
You don't need to invade a country to exploit the shit out of it. All they would need is to sponsor someone in a coup or seizure of power. That person agrees to share vibranium and technology with G8 stakeholders who all make ungodly amounts of money.

Or the US just invades on its own for Iraq based reasons.
In the Marvel-verse, governments don't decide things- slug-outs between super-powered individuals do. So the question is, who's got the most bad ass heroes?
Sure they do. They just get stymied by superpowered individuals who break laws but keep getting let off because reasons. :P
I think in this instance, it's going to be more a case of who has the most badass villains, since the MCU has a history of using superpowered/enhanced individuals to subvert governments- I can easily see some of the shadier world powers employing villains to do their dirty work for them! :twisted:
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-25 07:10pm

Actually, the US would have a pretty decent casus belli to invade Wakanda post-Civil War- the Wakandan government is providing asylum to wanted criminal Steve Rogers, the terrorist known as the Winter Soldier, and their allies.

Its not even a lie- Steve did rebel against lawful authority and fight to protect a known terrorist. You can argue weather circumstances justify him in doing so, and invading a sovereign nation to arrest Captain America as a terrorist would likely be controversial as hell, but he can be considered a terrorist being harbored by the Wakandan government.

Edit: Granted, that would be more likely to be handled by a drone strike or Bin Laden-style Navy Seal raid than a full-scale invasion with regime change and occupation.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Majin Gojira » 2018-02-25 11:14pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-25 07:10pm
Actually, the US would have a pretty decent casus belli to invade Wakanda post-Civil War- the Wakandan government is providing asylum to wanted criminal Steve Rogers, the terrorist known as the Winter Soldier, and their allies.

Its not even a lie- Steve did rebel against lawful authority and fight to protect a known terrorist. You can argue weather circumstances justify him in doing so, and invading a sovereign nation to arrest Captain America as a terrorist would likely be controversial as hell, but he can be considered a terrorist being harbored by the Wakandan government.

Edit: Granted, that would be more likely to be handled by a drone strike or Bin Laden-style Navy Seal raid than a full-scale invasion with regime change and occupation.
If/When they find out about Steve, Bucky, etc. Then things would be interesting.

Especially since it follows the political slap in the face of their outreach program. I mean, think about it, it basically is saying that the self-perceived most powerful country in the world can't take care of its own citizens.

Of course, they would fail spectacularly, because part of the whole point of Wakanda is that it was never conquered. I mean, what happened to the Skrulls in the comics during Secret Invasion was pretty much how it goes.

I can almost see it now. After the mission fails, the person who sent it is given a package . . . containing the severed head of one of the people sent to invade with the message "This is what happens to those who invade Wakanda."

I'd toy with the idea of some of the bigger powers holding back as to get more Vibrannium from Wakanda as well as other benefits, but this is a Marvel Universe. There are plenty of politicians stupid enough to look a gift horse in the mouth and risk getting no Wakandan tech at all while their enemies get all the wonderful toys.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by GuppyShark » 2018-02-26 12:11am

Wakanda is in for some rocky times. Refugees; tourists; media; spies - thousands will be heading to Wakanda wanting a piece of the Wakandan miracle for themselves.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-02-26 07:41am

Thanks to the post-credits stinger we know Bucky is still there. As Bucky was put on ice at the end of CW I knew he'd show up somewhere- I certainly didn't need any introduction to recognise him immediately.

I think the film suffers a bit in not having any of the other superheroes of the MCU showing up (Bucky's cameo notwithstanding), instead being limited to a couple of third-raters in the form of Ulysses Klaue and Everett Ross. Part of what made CW and Ragnarok so awesome (and to a lesser extend, Spiderman) was that it didn't just feature the Avenger in question to the exclusion of the others but heavily involved the rest. BP, while certainly being a good film in its own right doesn't quite have the same 'wow' factor that the rest do. While this is entirely in character for T'challa (and Wakanda in general in its isolationism) in that he wasn't entirely in Iron Man or Cap's team until the end, I still think they dropped the ball a bit.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by mr friendly guy » 2018-02-26 10:03am

Black Panther hit the $700 million mark. Its still got Japan and China to open in, but China would be the one to watch. Chadwick Boseman won the most popular US actor in China which might help with its sales.

I might try seeing it later this week, depends on my schedule.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Q99 » 2018-02-26 08:20pm

I'm fairly sure that once we get the numbers for today, we'll find it is right now the third highest domestic total for a MCU movie. On day 11.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Zaune » 2018-02-27 06:41am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-25 07:10pm
Actually, the US would have a pretty decent casus belli to invade Wakanda post-Civil War- the Wakandan government is providing asylum to wanted criminal Steve Rogers, the terrorist known as the Winter Soldier, and their allies.

Its not even a lie- Steve did rebel against lawful authority and fight to protect a known terrorist. You can argue weather circumstances justify him in doing so, and invading a sovereign nation to arrest Captain America as a terrorist would likely be controversial as hell, but he can be considered a terrorist being harbored by the Wakandan government.

Edit: Granted, that would be more likely to be handled by a drone strike or Bin Laden-style Navy Seal raid than a full-scale invasion with regime change and occupation.
Now there's a fanfic concept... Although while I never got around to watching Civil War, I'm betting a decorated war hero refusing what he believed to be an unlawful order and a US government agency being thoroughly compromised by terrorists would be enough of an embarrassing scandal without adding military aggression against a foreign country to the problem. Especially when it turns out they bit off a hell of a lot more than they can chew.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-02-27 06:59am

Zaune wrote:
2018-02-27 06:41am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-25 07:10pm
Actually, the US would have a pretty decent casus belli to invade Wakanda post-Civil War- the Wakandan government is providing asylum to wanted criminal Steve Rogers, the terrorist known as the Winter Soldier, and their allies.

Its not even a lie- Steve did rebel against lawful authority and fight to protect a known terrorist. You can argue weather circumstances justify him in doing so, and invading a sovereign nation to arrest Captain America as a terrorist would likely be controversial as hell, but he can be considered a terrorist being harbored by the Wakandan government.

Edit: Granted, that would be more likely to be handled by a drone strike or Bin Laden-style Navy Seal raid than a full-scale invasion with regime change and occupation.
Now there's a fanfic concept... Although while I never got around to watching Civil War, I'm betting a decorated war hero refusing what he believed to be an unlawful order and a US government agency being thoroughly compromised by terrorists would be enough of an embarrassing scandal without adding military aggression against a foreign country to the problem. Especially when it turns out they bit off a hell of a lot more than they can chew.
You need to see Civil War, it's amazing; :mrgreen: the part at the airport alone is one long Moment Of Awesome! 8)

With the looming Infinity War, I'm betting Wakandan Tech is the only thing that stands a chance against Thanos and his allies. Assuming he launches an invasion instead of simply raiding the Infinity Stones instead that is.
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Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-27 03:18pm

Zaune wrote:
2018-02-27 06:41am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-25 07:10pm
Actually, the US would have a pretty decent casus belli to invade Wakanda post-Civil War- the Wakandan government is providing asylum to wanted criminal Steve Rogers, the terrorist known as the Winter Soldier, and their allies.

Its not even a lie- Steve did rebel against lawful authority and fight to protect a known terrorist. You can argue weather circumstances justify him in doing so, and invading a sovereign nation to arrest Captain America as a terrorist would likely be controversial as hell, but he can be considered a terrorist being harbored by the Wakandan government.

Edit: Granted, that would be more likely to be handled by a drone strike or Bin Laden-style Navy Seal raid than a full-scale invasion with regime change and occupation.
Now there's a fanfic concept... Although while I never got around to watching Civil War, I'm betting a decorated war hero refusing what he believed to be an unlawful order and a US government agency being thoroughly compromised by terrorists would be enough of an embarrassing scandal without adding military aggression against a foreign country to the problem. Especially when it turns out they bit off a hell of a lot more than they can chew.
Putting that on my list of future fanfic projects (I have a ridiculously long backlog of ideas).
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Q99 » 2018-02-27 08:42pm

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Q99 » 2018-02-28 10:29pm

Good news every! The Art of Black Panther book out and it is ridiculously pretty.

It includes a map of Wakanda and each of the tribes has their own settlement outside the capital. It looks like the border tribe settlement is called a 'village,' but it also seems like they had the widest territory.

The Jabari are surprisingly near the border, but, well, impassible mountains in the way and all that.

This was just flipping through it at the bookstore display copy, I'm sure there's a ton more.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Soontir C'boath » 2018-02-28 11:59pm

#1 Marvel film. There was no way in hell they were ever going to get away with not addressing Kilmonger's point of view that many audiences would have shared about Wakanda. The story could not be about anything else and they have done a fantastic job of it.
The Atlantic wrote:Chadwick Boseman knows what many viewers have been thinking as they watch Black Panther—that maybe Erik Killmonger (Michael B. Jordan), the film’s ostensible villain, isn’t such a villain after all. That maybe Killmonger’s stated aim, to use the powerful technology and weaponry of the secluded African nation of Wakanda to liberate black people all over the world, is worth taking seriously. It’s an argument that Boseman himself wrestled with while making the movie, one he weaved into his performance as T’Challa, the titular hero and king of Wakanda who opposes his cousin Killmonger and eventually kills him in single combat.

“I actually am the enemy,” Boseman said of his character in a wide-ranging discussion with his Black Panther castmate Lupita Nyong’o and The Atlantic’s national correspondent Ta-Nehisi Coates at Harlem’s historic Apollo Theater on Tuesday. “It’s the enemy I’ve always known. It’s power. It’s having privilege.” Recognizing T’Challa’s limitations as a character, and understanding the personal and philosophical evolutions he goes through in battling Erik, were crucial to the final arc of the film, Boseman said. And that arc is one reason Black Panther has become such an instant global phenomenon—because it’s a superhero movie that bucks a lot of the conventions of the genre, rejecting a simple, binary clash between hero and villain, and instead focusing on the ideological future of a nation.

During the talk, Boseman touched on many of the tensions my colleague Adam Serwer explored in his essay on Killmonger: Here is a character demanding aid and liberation for black people around the world, and chastising the secluded Wakandans (who hide from the public eye to avoid conflict) for their failure to address the many wrongs visited on their African neighbors over the centuries. Killmonger’s methods are often violent and cold-blooded, and he seems stripped of empathy as he displaces the Wakandan royal family. But his motivations are powerful, even if his tactics (as the CIA Agent Everett Ross, played by Martin Freeman, points out) are rooted in the American military’s long history of interfering in foreign transitions of power.

Boseman pointed to Ryan Coogler, Black Panther’s director (Joe Robert Cole co-wrote the script with him), as the man behind Killmonger’s complicated characterization. “He’s an African American and therefore trying to find a connection to his roots in Africa,” he said. “You see that search in the movie. There’s a bit of Ryan in Killmonger, and I feel the same way.” As king of Wakanda, T’Challa is a particularly potent symbol of idealism for a liberated, technologically advanced African nation that was never conquered. But as meaningful as that symbol is, Coogler knows it’s also something that might provoke feelings of alienation or even resentment in the audience.

T’Challa was “born with a vibranium spoon in [his] mouth,” Boseman said, jokingly referring to the fictional rare metal that gives Wakanda its advanced technology and powers the superhero suit of the Black Panther. “Killmonger is trying to achieve greatness … but there’s an expectation of greatness for me,” Boseman continued. “I don’t know if we as African Americans would accept T’Challa as our hero if he didn’t go through Killmonger. Because Killmonger has been through our struggle, and I [as T’Challa] haven’t.”

As an African American (who was born and raised in South Carolina and attended Howard University), Boseman connected to Erik’s message—and realized T’Challa’s true triumph would come from accepting parts of it. As Killmonger dies, he reminds T’Challa of the people that Wakanda neglected: “Bury me in the ocean with my ancestors who jumped from ships,” he says. “‘Cause they knew death was better than bondage.” At the end of the film, T’Challa decides to open Wakanda to the world, looking to provide aid and technology to impoverished communities (though not to conquer, as Killmonger did).

Nyong’o, who plays T’Challa’s ex-girlfriend Nakia (an undercover operative for the Wakandan government), said she had never seen a blockbuster script wrestle with those kinds of perspectives. “We, too, have been plagued with these unfortunate images that diminish us,” she said (Nyong’o, who was born in Mexico City and grew up in Nairobi, identifies as Kenyan-Mexican). She spoke of the film’s portrayal of Wakanda’s deep traditions, and how radical it felt that they were untouched by colonialism, never besieged by Westerners.

“Their idea of beauty is totally their own, and totally modern and unique, and it’s okay,” she said of Wakandans. “The tradition evolves as the needs of the people evolve.” And, of course, they do—with Wakanda opening its borders while retaining its policy of nonaggression against other countries. Beyond that, Nyong’o said she was thrilled by a world where women have “agency” and her character, though an old flame of T’Challa’s, is hardly defined by their relationship, but by her own skill as a spy and a fighter.

To Nyong’o, Nakia’s relationship with General Okoye (Danai Gurira) symbolized that push-and-pull between tradition and evolution. Midway through the film, both characters think T’Challa is dead, replaced by Killmonger after ritual combat. Nakia decides to go on the run, unwilling to serve Wakanda’s new ruler; Okoye, sworn to the throne, says she has to honor the transition of power. “It’s the crux of what Wakanda is dealing with,” Nyong’o said. “What does ‘serving’ and ‘saving’ look like?”

The “combustion” between the characters, she added, “was about the political and ideological future of Wakanda.” To have a scene like that between two women in a film of this genre, one that often sidelines female characters as love interests or supportive mothers, mattered to Nyong’o. “It’s not petty,” she said.

“Wakanda is a birthplace, a center,” Boseman said, in talking about the varied backgrounds of the actors involved, representing countries including Zimbabwe, Uganda, Kenya, South Africa, Trinidad and Tobago, and, of course, the United States. Wakanda might be a fictional land, but every cast member’s commitment to it feels authentic because of their performances.

There are perhaps a million reasons for Black Panther’s success, including the terrific ensemble and design elements (particularly Hannah Beachler’s sets and Ruth E. Carter’s costumes). But putting Wakanda at the center of Black Panther, and making the dramatic stakes of the film a battle for the nation’s future direction, was incredibly bold on Coogler’s part. This choice demanded emotional investment from viewers in a fictional country they, for the most part, had just been introduced to. The way the film builds out this world, and roots every character in its history, is Coogler’s greatest achievement with Black Panther.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Q99 » 2018-03-02 06:42am

I am impressed how much talk there's been of Killmonger's motives, and I've only seen a few people not 'get it'.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-03-02 12:18pm

Had his plans gotten any further I can easily see how Wakanda would have ended up at war, I can't imagine countries being too happy with a foreign nation sponsoring an armed uprising in their own backyards after all.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by GuppyShark » 2018-03-02 07:07pm

The movie's world-building was excellent. The actual plot itself was meh, but with strong characters and themes they have not only made a big hit, but set themselves up for even more success in the future.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-02 07:32pm

Okay, saw this on Wednesday. My thoughts, due to the reality of the MCU, how much is T'challa's outreach program doomed to fail? It's been over a decade since Iron Man 1, and there doesn't seem to be a huge change in everybody's technology, or Stark reactors powering everything in the world due to his tech, and the other wonderful toys developed in the MCU. Mostly due to keeping the setting relatively similar to ours. After all, if Wakanda succeeds, Earth should have a defense fleet or whatever by the end of Phase IV or whatever, making it too much a different place from our world.

That said, I quite enjoyed the film, and wondered if they have any of those herb plants left, or if after Killmonger burned them all, T'Challa is the last empowered king.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-02 07:39pm

That's a common problem with superhero films, and modern fantasy/SF stories in general. They tend to stay in the box and keep it "like our world, but with one thing different", which eventually wrecks suspension of disbelief a bit.
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