Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

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Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-02-16 02:18pm

Because it's now out in at least the UK and because I still hate using trailer threads as discussion threads.

Here's one for Black Panther, which I'm going to have to try and see soon.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Ziggy Stardust » 2018-02-16 07:14pm

I plan on seeing it this weekend. Early indications are that it is quite good; I've heard some rather glowing praise, even from sources that are usually a bit bullish on Marvel films, and it is apparently on its way to shattering some box office records.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Steve » 2018-02-17 01:59pm

That may have been the best single character Marvel movie yet. It's certainly one of the strongest in Phase 3.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-17 03:43pm

Really want to see this one, don't know if I'll have the time or money to do so.

But Black Panther was my favorite part of Winter Soldier (a film I otherwise largely disliked) by far. Aside from the significance of Marvel finally having a film lead by someone other than a straight white man, he's just a cool character.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-02-17 03:59pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-17 03:43pm
Really want to see this one, don't know if I'll have the time or money to do so.

But Black Panther was my favorite part of Winter Soldier (a film I otherwise largely disliked) by far. Aside from the significance of Marvel finally having a film lead by someone other than a straight white man, he's just a cool character.
Civil War you mean.

I'm still annoyed DC beat them to the superheroine movie punch.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-17 04:06pm

Yes, sorry. Meant Civil War, obviously.

And yeah. Fifteen fucking movies before they get to one without a straight white dick in the lead, and still no female lead. Though to be fair, they've done way better on television.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: they've missed two really good opportunities to have a female lead film. Guardians should have had Gamora as team leader. And the continued absence of a Black Widow film is just embarrassing. The time for it, I think, would have been either in the initial run-up to Avengers or, if they didn't have the balls to risk someone without a straight white dick in the lead that early, then right after Winter Soldier.

Oh, I'm sure they'll do a female-lead film eventually. But everyone knows that the big climax of the current run is likely to be Infinity Wars. No franchise maintains consistent interest or quality forever, and I expect the MCU's fortunes will likely begin to wain after Infinity Wars. Which means that if they do have a female-lead film, it'll probably be just in time for the decline of the franchise to be blamed on the fact that they cast a woman. At least that's what I'm afraid of.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Gandalf » 2018-02-17 06:18pm

Michael B Jordan really stole that show, and made some interesting points while doing so.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by ray245 » 2018-02-17 06:46pm

I find how quickly everyone was willing to accept a new king a little unrealistic. As much as rule and tradition are important, they aren't set in stone. Any functional monarchy would know that giving the king near unlimited power to do whatever they want is not the way to go.

It's really annoying that Wankandans are so willing to follow the throne even when they all know this is wrong and problematic. I want Killmonger to have everything fall flat on his face because nothing he does commands respect or authority from actual human beings. The throne is only as powerful as the king is able to command the respect of the people he rules.

That would have been a more fitting end for an angry kid like Killmonger. Instead, we got another villain who got defeated by a force of strength. They went down dying with the belief that their ideology works, just that they weren't strong enough. It's rather annoying and slightly weakens the message and themes of the movie.

T'Challa should win not because he can heal himself and beat Killmonger in a fight, but because he reigns as a king that people actually like and respect.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Vendetta » 2018-02-17 07:30pm

ray245 wrote:
2018-02-17 06:46pm
It's really annoying that Wankandans are so willing to follow the throne even when they all know this is wrong and problematic. I want Killmonger to have everything fall flat on his face because nothing he does commands respect or authority from actual human beings. The throne is only as powerful as the king is able to command the respect of the people he rules.
I mean the king has actual superpowers too....

But really Killmonger is arriving right at the point the existing social order of Wakanda is about to undergo a change, the people there are about to start looking outwards anyway, and it's a conflict about how that happens and how they deal with the rest of the world.

Some people actively agree with Killmonger's agenda (like W'kabi, Daniel Kaluuya's character), of starting that relationship with the rest of the world adversarially. They're not just supporting him because he's the king, but because they agree with him.

Also, T'Challa doesn't just win because he beats Killmonger one on one, but because he actually did command respect, and from someone who otherwise naturally disagreed with him. That's how he got an army. (Personally I'm hoping they keep the current adversarial-but-not-enemies relationship with M'baku and canon be damned, Winston Duke was too much fun to waste as a villain).

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by ray245 » 2018-02-17 08:07pm

Vendetta wrote:
2018-02-17 07:30pm
ray245 wrote:
2018-02-17 06:46pm
It's really annoying that Wankandans are so willing to follow the throne even when they all know this is wrong and problematic. I want Killmonger to have everything fall flat on his face because nothing he does commands respect or authority from actual human beings. The throne is only as powerful as the king is able to command the respect of the people he rules.
I mean the king has actual superpowers too....

But really Killmonger is arriving right at the point the existing social order of Wakanda is about to undergo a change, the people there are about to start looking outwards anyway, and it's a conflict about how that happens and how they deal with the rest of the world.

Some people actively agree with Killmonger's agenda (like W'kabi, Daniel Kaluuya's character), of starting that relationship with the rest of the world adversarially. They're not just supporting him because he's the king, but because they agree with him.

Also, T'Challa doesn't just win because he beats Killmonger one on one, but because he actually did command respect, and from someone who otherwise naturally disagreed with him. That's how he got an army. (Personally I'm hoping they keep the current adversarial-but-not-enemies relationship with M'baku and canon be damned, Winston Duke was too much fun to waste as a villain).
Agreeing Wakanda should be more involved in world politics openly is different from wanting to build a world empire. Esepcially being led by a foreign warmonger that have yet to earn the trust of anyone.

Burning all their herbs that is a massive part of their culture should have broken the back of killmongers authority's as king.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Steve » 2018-02-17 11:00pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-17 04:06pm
Yes, sorry. Meant Civil War, obviously.

And yeah. Fifteen fucking movies before they get to one without a straight white dick in the lead, and still no female lead. Though to be fair, they've done way better on television.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: they've missed two really good opportunities to have a female lead film. Guardians should have had Gamora as team leader. And the continued absence of a Black Widow film is just embarrassing. The time for it, I think, would have been either in the initial run-up to Avengers or, if they didn't have the balls to risk someone without a straight white dick in the lead that early, then right after Winter Soldier.

Oh, I'm sure they'll do a female-lead film eventually. But everyone knows that the big climax of the current run is likely to be Infinity Wars. No franchise maintains consistent interest or quality forever, and I expect the MCU's fortunes will likely begin to wain after Infinity Wars. Which means that if they do have a female-lead film, it'll probably be just in time for the decline of the franchise to be blamed on the fact that they cast a woman. At least that's what I'm afraid of.
We're getting Captain Marvel this fall. As in Carol Danvers. Still not a Black Widow movie, I grant...
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Coop D'etat » 2018-02-17 11:02pm

ray245 wrote:
2018-02-17 08:07pm
Vendetta wrote:
2018-02-17 07:30pm
ray245 wrote:
2018-02-17 06:46pm
It's really annoying that Wankandans are so willing to follow the throne even when they all know this is wrong and problematic. I want Killmonger to have everything fall flat on his face because nothing he does commands respect or authority from actual human beings. The throne is only as powerful as the king is able to command the respect of the people he rules.
I mean the king has actual superpowers too....

But really Killmonger is arriving right at the point the existing social order of Wakanda is about to undergo a change, the people there are about to start looking outwards anyway, and it's a conflict about how that happens and how they deal with the rest of the world.

Some people actively agree with Killmonger's agenda (like W'kabi, Daniel Kaluuya's character), of starting that relationship with the rest of the world adversarially. They're not just supporting him because he's the king, but because they agree with him.

Also, T'Challa doesn't just win because he beats Killmonger one on one, but because he actually did command respect, and from someone who otherwise naturally disagreed with him. That's how he got an army. (Personally I'm hoping they keep the current adversarial-but-not-enemies relationship with M'baku and canon be damned, Winston Duke was too much fun to waste as a villain).
Agreeing Wakanda should be more involved in world politics openly is different from wanting to build a world empire. Esepcially being led by a foreign warmonger that have yet to earn the trust of anyone.

Burning all their herbs that is a massive part of their culture should have broken the back of killmongers authority's as king.
The Heart-Shaped herb is most likely something largely within the discretionary authority of a Wakandan King to do with as he pleased. Also, Eric can just as easily be interpreted as an returned exiled prince, not an outsider. By all appearences, he was still a legitimate king according to Wakandan rules. He had the right to challange and was successful

I doubt a cadet line challanging for the throne in order to push an alternate policy is unheard of in Wakandan politics. It's likely one of the functions of ritual combat to funnel these disputes into a one-on-one confrontation to settle them without wider violence.

Meanwhile, Eric's relative lack of legitimacy despite obeying the letter of the law is what fuels the constitutional crisis in the final act.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Civil War Man » 2018-02-18 02:26am

Vendetta wrote:
2018-02-17 07:30pm
(Personally I'm hoping they keep the current adversarial-but-not-enemies relationship with M'baku and canon be damned, Winston Duke was too much fun to waste as a villain).
Seconded here. M'baku was easily one of my favorite secondary characters in the movie.
ray245 wrote:
2018-02-17 08:07pm
Agreeing Wakanda should be more involved in world politics openly is different from wanting to build a world empire. Esepcially being led by a foreign warmonger that have yet to earn the trust of anyone.
In the case of W'kabi, Killmonger won his allegiance by doing what T'challa and T'chaka failed to do. I can see how a large enough segment of the Wakandan population might be in support of an adversarial relationship with the rest of the world, since their isolation has resulted in people like Klawe being their only real experience with outsiders.

Unrelated to the topic of discussion, they don't come right out and say it, but I suspect that the Soul Gem is in the middle of the vibranium mound. Wakandan tech, particularly the updated Black Panther suits, has a similar aesthetic to other Infinity stone-based MCU tech. And between the herb elixir granting superpowers and making the skin temporarily glow, the fact that the process looks fairly painful, and how drinking it can result in a trip to the spirit realm to talk to the dead, the heart-shaped herbs practically scream "I'm a plant infused with Soul Gem energy."

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-02-18 04:16am

Steve wrote:
2018-02-17 11:00pm

We're getting Captain Marvel this fall. As in Carol Danvers. Still not a Black Widow movie, I grant...

Captain Marvel is next year. This autumn is Ant-Man & The Wasp.

Hopefully will live up to the co-billing if nothing else.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by ray245 » 2018-02-18 07:21am

Coop D'etat wrote:
2018-02-17 11:02pm
The Heart-Shaped herb is most likely something largely within the discretionary authority of a Wakandan King to do with as he pleased. Also, Eric can just as easily be interpreted as an returned exiled prince, not an outsider. By all appearences, he was still a legitimate king according to Wakandan rules. He had the right to challange and was successful

I doubt a cadet line challanging for the throne in order to push an alternate policy is unheard of in Wakandan politics. It's likely one of the functions of ritual combat to funnel these disputes into a one-on-one confrontation to settle them without wider violence.

Meanwhile, Eric's relative lack of legitimacy despite obeying the letter of the law is what fuels the constitutional crisis in the final act.
The Heart-shaped herb is something that allows other clans to gain the powers of the Black Panther. Burning the crops effectively means no next generation have the chance to gain the superpower to protect Wakanda and acts as a means to stop any further challenges.

Most monarchies impose certain rules on what a monarch can or cannot do. There's a limit because otherwise, the kingdom will fall apart when a monarch abuses their power at the expense of their people.


Civil War Man wrote:
2018-02-18 02:26am
In the case of W'kabi, Killmonger won his allegiance by doing what T'challa and T'chaka failed to do. I can see how a large enough segment of the Wakandan population might be in support of an adversarial relationship with the rest of the world, since their isolation has resulted in people like Klawe being their only real experience with outsiders.
An adversarial relationship does not equate to world conquest and imperialism. What you'll end up saying is that there is a large segment of Wakanda people that think that imperialism is right.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Steve » 2018-02-18 09:53am

Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-02-18 04:16am
Steve wrote:
2018-02-17 11:00pm

We're getting Captain Marvel this fall. As in Carol Danvers. Still not a Black Widow movie, I grant...

Captain Marvel is next year. This autumn is Ant-Man & The Wasp.

Hopefully will live up to the co-billing if nothing else.
I'm pretty sure Ant-Man & The Wasp is July, but I do see that they moved Captain Marvel up to 2019. It was initially for November of this year. I wonder if they didn't want to put it against Venom?
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Steve » 2018-02-18 09:57am

Looking at the cast list of AMatW, I remember seeing Laurence Fishburne in the trailer, but now I see who he's playing: Bill Foster. Now I'm eager to see him become Goliath. 8)

We just, uh, have to keep him away from Thor. Or any clones of Thor...
”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Gaidin » 2018-02-18 11:26am

Civil War Man wrote:
2018-02-18 02:26am
Unrelated to the topic of discussion, they don't come right out and say it, but I suspect that the Soul Gem is in the middle of the vibranium mound. Wakandan tech, particularly the updated Black Panther suits, has a similar aesthetic to other Infinity stone-based MCU tech. And between the herb elixir granting superpowers and making the skin temporarily glow, the fact that the process looks fairly painful, and how drinking it can result in a trip to the spirit realm to talk to the dead, the heart-shaped herbs practically scream "I'm a plant infused with Soul Gem energy."
Here's Why Black Panther Didn't Include a Certain Major Marvel Connection.
Black Panther is now in theaters and it’s great. Like, really great. And one of the best things about it is you don’t need to be super familiar with Marvel’s 17 previous movies to enjoy it. It totally works on its own. However, if you are familiar with those movies, maybe you walked out of the theater with a question.

That question isn’t exactly a spoiler since, well, the answer isn’t in the movie. But, just in case, we’ll leave this right here.

---in article spoiler tag---

Again, we aren’t spoiling anything in the movie, just something that’s not in the movie.

That is, of course, the Soul Stone! The final of six Infinity Stones Thanos needs for Avengers: Infinity War. It’s not there! We were wrong! Fans had long suggested the stone would either be in Thor: Ragnarok or Black Panther but, now that we’ve seen Panther, we know it’s not in there.

Why though? Well, the film’s co-writer and director Ryan Coogler has a pretty good answer for that.

“I love the Infinity Stones as much as any comic book fan,” Coogler told IGN. “It’s just Wakanda already has its thing, which is Vibranium. For us, that was special enough. So to throw in something like another special thing didn’t feel right. It felt like we should stick with our one MacGuffin for the country and explore that. Let that be the important thing because, frankly we didn’t need to have another piece like that.”

“[Marvel Studios] never really was interested in putting a stone in there, either,” he concluded.

So that answers that. By simple process of elimination, it seems like now the whereabout of that pesky soul stone won’t be revealed until Avengers: Infinity War. Thankfully, that’s less than three months away.

Black Panther is now in theaters.
Vibranium is Wakanda's thing, and is more the metal of the meteor that struck africa and interacted with the environment in very strange ways. The Soul Stone is somewhere else.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-18 04:16pm

Steve wrote:
2018-02-17 11:00pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-17 04:06pm
Yes, sorry. Meant Civil War, obviously.

And yeah. Fifteen fucking movies before they get to one without a straight white dick in the lead, and still no female lead. Though to be fair, they've done way better on television.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: they've missed two really good opportunities to have a female lead film. Guardians should have had Gamora as team leader. And the continued absence of a Black Widow film is just embarrassing. The time for it, I think, would have been either in the initial run-up to Avengers or, if they didn't have the balls to risk someone without a straight white dick in the lead that early, then right after Winter Soldier.

Oh, I'm sure they'll do a female-lead film eventually. But everyone knows that the big climax of the current run is likely to be Infinity Wars. No franchise maintains consistent interest or quality forever, and I expect the MCU's fortunes will likely begin to wain after Infinity Wars. Which means that if they do have a female-lead film, it'll probably be just in time for the decline of the franchise to be blamed on the fact that they cast a woman. At least that's what I'm afraid of.
We're getting Captain Marvel this fall. As in Carol Danvers. Still not a Black Widow movie, I grant...
Yeah, I knew there was talk about a Captain Marvel film, but I didn't know the release date was that soon. Good to know.

Still bitter that it took this long, and that there's no Black Widow movie.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by SpottedKitty » 2018-02-19 12:18am

Haven't seen it yet, but there was an amusing sniplet on BBC News the other day. In a scene at the UN General Assembly, one recognisable flag is the Red Dragon of Wales. Apparently in the MCU, Wales is an independent country. :lol:
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Vendetta » 2018-02-19 04:08am

It's obviously set after Brexit has doomed the Union :P

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Civil War Man » 2018-02-19 08:49am

Gaidin wrote:
2018-02-18 11:26am
Vibranium is Wakanda's thing, and is more the metal of the meteor that struck africa and interacted with the environment in very strange ways. The Soul Stone is somewhere else.
Fair enough. I was under the impression that the Soul Stone was at the center of the meteor, and that vibranium was a byproduct of it, either created directly by the stone or the result of the stone, for lack of a better word, corrupting more mundane metals. The Wakandans then would have used the vibranium, along with similarly corrupted materials like the heart-shaped herbs, as the basis for their tech and science. Which, if this interpretation were true, would have been a lot smarter than trying handle an Infinity Stone directly like what Hydra/SHIELD/Stark did with the Tesseract and the Mind Gem.

It also would have been an easy explanation for some of vibranium's weirder properties, like how it is good for pretty much any use, the seemingly infinite supply of the mound, Cap's shield doing what it does, etc. Since it would have been a byproduct of the Soul Gem, then the metal would somehow be responsive to the desires of the person wielding it. So, in effect, the vibranium would allow Cap's shield to return to him because that how he wants it to work.

But, if the people making the movie say I'm wrong, then I'm obviously wrong.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Lost Soal » 2018-02-19 08:58am

Vendetta wrote:
2018-02-17 07:30pm
Also, T'Challa doesn't just win because he beats Killmonger one on one, but because he actually did command respect, and from someone who otherwise naturally disagreed with him. That's how he got an army. (Personally I'm hoping they keep the current adversarial-but-not-enemies relationship with M'baku and canon be damned, Winston Duke was too much fun to waste as a villain).
It was a quick flash but I could have swore I saw M'baku on the council at the end.
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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-19 06:53pm

SpottedKitty wrote:
2018-02-19 12:18am
Haven't seen it yet, but there was an amusing sniplet on BBC News the other day. In a scene at the UN General Assembly, one recognisable flag is the Red Dragon of Wales. Apparently in the MCU, Wales is an independent country. :lol:
Aww, does that mean they don't film Doctor Who there any more? :(
Vendetta wrote:
2018-02-19 04:08am
It's obviously set after Brexit has doomed the Union :P
Hydra, Loki, Thanos... nobody ever realized who the greatest threat to the United Kingdom was.

David Cameron.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

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Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-02-19 10:32pm

Just saw it this evening. It was good. I was kind of surprised that murdering the priest in the middle of the ritual challenge didn't invalidate the whole damn thing, though.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

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