Justice League Release Thread

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The Romulan Republic
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Re: Justice League Release Thread

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-11-28 06:37pm

I don't get why the films have to pass the billion mark to be considered successes. Sure, if your only definition of "success" is "massive blockbuster", but their are many movies that turn a tidy profit, and are well-recieved, without hitting a benchmark only a handful of films in history have reached.

There are some aspects of the DC film universe I'd be very sorry to not see followed up on (like Wonder Woman, and an Affleck Batman movie). And others (like the Joker) I'd be very happy to see ditched.

Starting over now isn't going to win them any points, though. I don't think their will be much public appetite to start over after a decade of meandering attempts to create a DC film-verse, a half-decade of films with mixed reviews and mediocre box-office returns, followed by an admission of defeat and yet another reboot.

They have to let it lie for at least a few years, I think, and then come back to it with completely different management and talent.

As for TV- isn't their already effectively a live action TV-verse, between the various DC live action shows?

Edit: In hindsight, I wonder if they should have just paid Christopher Nolan whatever it took to get him to do a DCU set in the Dark Knight-verse, even if it would have been a somewhat awkward fit.

Oh, wait, Dark Knight Rises is one of those films the internet fan bandwagon hates, so they would have shouted "Ruined!" before it even began. :roll:
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Justice League Release Thread

Post by ray245 » 2017-11-28 08:06pm

Because movies today are more expensive than movies in the past. More and more tentpole movies have budgets so big that they need to make a billion to earn back a reasonable amount of profit.

Bearing in mind that production cost does not include marketing cost, and the studio can take less than 50% of earnings at box office ( the rest goes to the cinema chains), box office earnings aren't that impressive.

Assuming JL cost about 300 million to make ( some estimates it to be higher), then add in about another 100 millions on marketing, the studio needs to see a box office earning of 800 millon just to break even. And that's assuming the studio gets to take back 50% of earnings, as most international markets only give the studios 30% or less.
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Re: Justice League Release Thread

Post by FaxModem1 » 2017-11-28 08:25pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2017-11-28 06:37pm
Edit: In hindsight, I wonder if they should have just paid Christopher Nolan whatever it took to get him to do a DCU set in the Dark Knight-verse, even if it would have been a somewhat awkward fit.

Oh, wait, Dark Knight Rises is one of those films the internet fan bandwagon hates, so they would have shouted "Ruined!" before it even began. :roll:
That's what happens when your main character abandons a city after a radioactive detonation and supports the rich and powerful in a class warfare fight.
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Re: Justice League Release Thread

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-11-28 08:34pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2017-11-28 08:25pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2017-11-28 06:37pm
Edit: In hindsight, I wonder if they should have just paid Christopher Nolan whatever it took to get him to do a DCU set in the Dark Knight-verse, even if it would have been a somewhat awkward fit.

Oh, wait, Dark Knight Rises is one of those films the internet fan bandwagon hates, so they would have shouted "Ruined!" before it even began. :roll:
That's what happens when your main character abandons a city after a radioactive detonation and supports the rich and powerful in a class warfare fight.
You mean "Supports the people who aren't nuclear terrorists holding a city hostage?"

Bane and Talia cared as much for the working class as Donald Trump does.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Justice League Release Thread

Post by FaxModem1 » 2017-11-28 09:07pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2017-11-28 08:34pm
You mean "Supports the people who aren't nuclear terrorists holding a city hostage?"

Bane and Talia cared as much for the working class as Donald Trump does.
Yes, Bane and Talia are psychotic terrorists, but the film conflates that with class warfare. And the film still has Bruce give up on the poor after his enemy(the mob) were defeated and the citizens of Gotham when he can, and saying, "Not my problem, an unemployed former cop with no funds whatsoever can do what I did. I'm sure an old Batsuit will do the job." And that's not assuming that Gotham's coast isn't radioactive and everyone there dies from radiation poisoning within the next year or so.

Nolan-Batman is also a fan of a system that locks up people without hope of appeal forever, as shown in the Dent Act, and considering Catwoman was locked up in prison without trial, and the movie's theme of society being better for everyone to believe in a lie, it sends the message that lying to the people, rich should be kept in place, and that the only alternative is insane criminals trying to kill everyone to balance everything, so it should be opposed.
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Re: Justice League Release Thread

Post by Ender » 2017-11-29 01:48am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2017-11-28 06:37pm
I don't get why the films have to pass the billion mark to be considered successes. Sure, if your only definition of "success" is "massive blockbuster", but their are many movies that turn a tidy profit, and are well-recieved, without hitting a benchmark only a handful of films in history have reached.
Because Hollywood doesn't work the way people think it does. It's business model isn't the creation of films; it is basically a VC pit looking for intellectual property franchises.

Look, if you wanted to consistently make a strong return on films - ones that aren't super expensive to produce but you almost never miss in making back 4 times what they cost to make - you know what you would make? Movies about family drama centered on the experiences of African Americans. Dig in the numbers and there is a strong block of black middle aged adults that regularly go to the theater as their primary entertainment and they watch the kinds of stuff middle aged adults tend to watch. Look at the returns on The Butler or Fences. If you want to get rich making movies, that's where the fucking money is.

But they don't do that because making movies isn't the business of Hollywood. Of all the industries out there, Hollywood was one of the first that Wall Street gobbled up. Now it is generate a stable of intellectual properties that land mega hits because the megahits are promotions for the properties. That boosts the estimated value of the properties, which boosts your books which is then sliced and diced into financial instruments that fly around traders. Keep shoveling in cash because even if it isn't generating a profit, it's expected value is going up up UP BABY!
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Re: Justice League Release Thread

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-11-29 02:06pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2017-11-28 09:07pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2017-11-28 08:34pm
You mean "Supports the people who aren't nuclear terrorists holding a city hostage?"

Bane and Talia cared as much for the working class as Donald Trump does.
Yes, Bane and Talia are psychotic terrorists, but the film conflates that with class warfare.
Sort of, but I don't think the intention of the film was to say "Working class people who are dissatisfied with the status quo are terrorists", like you seem to think. The suffering of the poor of Gotham is acknowledged repeatedly in Nolan's films (and one of the reasons behind Gotham's corruption), even if its not the main focus, both Bruce and his father are philanthropists, and the only one on the "bad guys''" side in DKR who actually gives a real shit about the poor at all, Selina, is the most sympathetically portrayed and the one who ultimately is portrayed in a heroic light.

I think the intent was more to show how those legitimate complaints could be highjacked by fanatics and tyrants for their own ends, with the result that innocent people end up getting hurt without it actually making things better. Which is a common pattern throughout history- I've read that part of Nolan's inspiration for the film was A Tale of Two Cities, and thus, the French Revolution/the Reign of Terror.

I do think it was a mistake to bring themes of class warfare overtly into the film without giving more time to develop those themes, given the complex and contentious nature of the topic. It muddles the film, and carries likely unintended negative implications.

The Dark Knight Rises's problem isn't ultimately that different from Batman v Superman's, structurally, though its not quite identical. Where Batman v Superman feels like scenes from several pretty good movies awkwardly and loosely stitched together, DKR feels like two movies shoved together at the middle, without being very well-integrated, with the consequence that the second half of the film is rushed and under-developed.

Honestly, I think it probably should have been two films: the first a loose adaptation of Knightfall, and the second entirely devoted to being a loose adaptation of No Man's Land, with more exploration of Gotham under Bane's rule and how various people view it.
And the film still has Bruce give up on the poor after his enemy(the mob) were defeated and the citizens of Gotham when he can, and saying, "Not my problem, an unemployed former cop with no funds whatsoever can do what I did. I'm sure an old Batsuit will do the job." And that's not assuming that Gotham's coast isn't radioactive and everyone there dies from radiation poisoning within the next year or so.
Bruce completely cutting himself off after Rachel and Dent's deaths was a mistake, but one resulting from despair, not callousness or privilege. The film acknowledges it as such.

I think we're supposed to assume that Gotham isn't going to all die of radiation, yes. I don't personally have an issue with that, any more than I demand an Endor Holocaust after RotJ. That bomb didn't work like an actual nuke anyway.

As to Bruce quitting the city at the end of the film... he lost all his money earlier in the film, remember? His company was history. He didn't have the resources he previously had, and I'm not sure how much longer he physically could have gone on being Batman, given the strain on his body his prior career was already having.

He gave years of his life, his happiness, his fortune, and very nearly his life to protecting Gotham. I think he's done enough. The city was fine until Bane and Talia came along. There's no reason it can't get by without Bruce afterward. And I actually like that ending very much, because it takes advantage of the fact that Nolan's trilogy is a self-contained series to subvert the usual "Gotham can never be saved" status quo, and let Batman actually win. Its quite refreshing.
Nolan-Batman is also a fan of a system that locks up people without hope of appeal forever, as shown in the Dent Act,
Did he ever actually say anything in the film endorsing the Dent Act? I don't recall, and it was passed while he was basically cutting himself off from everything.

He was willing to let Selina start over, after all. Although that could just be due to his attraction to her, I suppose.

I mean, Selina in the film is pretty much the poster child for "being a criminal doesn't necessarily make you irredeemable", though.
and considering Catwoman was locked up in prison without trial,
Was that ever stated in the film? I mean, people are held in prison awaiting trial. It could just be that Bane attacked before she could stand trial.

There's no indication that the Constitution is no longer in force in Nolan-verse America. The Dent Act wouldn't account for that.

Although maybe if they argued that Selina was an "enemy combatant"...
and the movie's theme of society being better for everyone to believe in a lie, it sends the message that lying to the people, rich should be kept in place, and that the only alternative is insane criminals trying to kill everyone to balance everything, so it should be opposed.
I think you are reading a lot more into it than is necessarily there on screen.

I could just as reasonably argue that your message is "Bloody overthrow of the rich by the poor is always justified, no matter how high the cost or how much collateral damage their is." It would be about as reasonable a conclusion- ie, not very.

The portrayal of the lie behind the Dent Act is ambiguous. Its portrayed as a necessary deception at the end of The Dark Knight, but we see the price of that in this film, when Bane exposes the deception to boost his own propaganda. Note that Robin calls Gordon out on it when the truth comes out.

I mean, it is a film about a heroic rich man in a city full of poor people. There's no getting around that, and that baggage has to be handled carefully. But I think you are somewhat cherry-picking aspects of the film that fit the interpretation you have, when the overall message, if there is one, is more ambiguous.

That said, it is a bit muddled, and that is a mark against Nolan as director.
Ender wrote:
2017-11-29 01:48am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2017-11-28 06:37pm
I don't get why the films have to pass the billion mark to be considered successes. Sure, if your only definition of "success" is "massive blockbuster", but their are many movies that turn a tidy profit, and are well-recieved, without hitting a benchmark only a handful of films in history have reached.
Because Hollywood doesn't work the way people think it does. It's business model isn't the creation of films; it is basically a VC pit looking for intellectual property franchises.

Look, if you wanted to consistently make a strong return on films - ones that aren't super expensive to produce but you almost never miss in making back 4 times what they cost to make - you know what you would make? Movies about family drama centered on the experiences of African Americans. Dig in the numbers and there is a strong block of black middle aged adults that regularly go to the theater as their primary entertainment and they watch the kinds of stuff middle aged adults tend to watch. Look at the returns on The Butler or Fences. If you want to get rich making movies, that's where the fucking money is.

But they don't do that because making movies isn't the business of Hollywood. Of all the industries out there, Hollywood was one of the first that Wall Street gobbled up. Now it is generate a stable of intellectual properties that land mega hits because the megahits are promotions for the properties. That boosts the estimated value of the properties, which boosts your books which is then sliced and diced into financial instruments that fly around traders. Keep shoveling in cash because even if it isn't generating a profit, it's expected value is going up up UP BABY!
There's some truth to this, but I think perhaps exaggerated. Their are popular and successful movies, even successful, long-lasting franchises, where no single film passed, or even approached, the billion mark.

If that is now considered the bench-mark for success, I don't think we'll be seeing a lot of long-lived film series in the future. Which will ultimately hurt the franchises, the IPs, and the companies.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Justice League Release Thread

Post by Crazedwraith » 2017-12-05 01:47pm

Reaction as the credits role. That was better than it had any right ro be and was actually pretty damn good.
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Re: Justice League Release Thread

Post by Crazedwraith » 2017-12-06 09:00am

After a little more consideration. I feel about this like I do about Star Trek Beyond, I wasn't expecting anything from it and it probably could be ripped apart but it gains a lot more goodwill from me because it's clearly at least trying to be want I want from Batman and Superman and a JL movie.

Rough categories with a lot of overlap:

Good
The League all gets their moments and some characterisation some more than others. Flash, Cyborg and Aquaman have their origins explored a bit. Flash and Cyborg get a little more overcoming their respective fears. Aquaman just gets to be Momoa as a tough buff guy (but I hope his solo film will expand him more).

Batman is great in this film because rather than Frank Miller inspired killer, he feels more like BTAS Batman at his best, a highly motivated man but also very compassionate and motivated by guilt and favour.

The Flash is also great. I actually really like the scene before the league’s first encounter with Steppenwolf. I don’t think we’ve ever seen a movie where a hero has just freaked out and realised he can’t do it, (As I wrote that I remembered Scarlet Witch ) It’s a clever moment that serves double duty. Explain why Flash doesn’t solve all problems at super-speed and really humanises him and Batman. (I can’t imagine Frank Miller’s Batman, for example, handling him with such tack and subtlety) The idea that once he saved one, he’ll keep doing it is great.

There’s actual a lot of mutual support and encouragement between the League members. And it’s quite wholesome. It really feels much more optimistic and cheerful than previous films even though it’s a world ending scenario.

Superman went he appears is more the boy scout from the comics, slightly cheesy but well-meaning and really is the figure they are all supposed to admire. The finale also managed to use to help and assist the characters and not just solve the problems himself out right. This is why they need the League and justifies them not just disband after the movie now Superman is back.

After credits scenes are excellent as well. One fun fluff, one Injustice Gang setup.

Meh
The resurrection of Supeman is really easy. They do give the team qualms about it. He does have some excellent scenes fighting the league, bonding with lois and the final fight and after credits scene.
But it’s still quick, cheap. They find a resurrection box and it afterwards they don’t address the Clark is back as well aspect at all.
And in the end it wasn’t really necessary. They could have gone with the theme of Diana and Batman stepping up to lead the league in Supes memory.

Plus, as I think someone said in this film, the film treats him as though Superman was a beloved benevolent entity much more is comic persona that well wasn’t really established in MoS or BvS in my mind.

Bad
This movie is not really feminist, if that matters to you. Lois and Diana both have basically collapsed without their men. Lois tearing up on Superman’s chest and saying she wasn’t strong enough to go on like he’d have wanted to. Diana did nothing between WW and BvS. The Amazons get massacred.(though to be far no-one short of the League can take Steppenwolf) Atantalean Lady dumps all her problems on Aquaman. (But again she put up the best fight up to that point against Steppenwold with aquakinesis)

Batman is still really, really shooty. He picks up and uses a laser rifle extensively in the final fight and that’s not even the fig leaf of it being vehicle mounted.

Steppenwolf is basically a non-entity as a villain, a stepping stone to Darksied. This is good, marvel did the same with Thanos but I hope they don’t go the same way as Marvel and wait Twenty odd movies for him to really do anything.

Weird
There's a Cyborg and Flash bonding scene set while they are stealing Superman's corpse.

It's basically 'we gave up and got the Avengers guy to make our movie's like a marvel one' and Joss Whedon introduces to the title in nearly exactly the same way as he did in Avengers. 'An alien invasion! What do we do now?' *title card appears*
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Re: Justice League Release Thread

Post by momochan » 2017-12-07 07:38pm

Thank you for the thoughtful writeup, Crazedwraith. Although I don't need details on the mechanics of resurrection, I felt as though I wanted to know more about how...being dead... would affect you psychologically, when given a chance to introspect on it, which basically no one ever gets. I mean, Superman did freak out for a bit, but then just went back to previous MO fairly quickly. Maybe this could be explored more in an upcoming film.
Also, Superman's facial expression makes him looks disturbed about being worshipped like a god, but I don't remember him really talking about that.
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