Marvel vs Wonder Woman and Bathos

[Adam Reynolds]

This was a rather interesting video that came out recently in response to Wonder Woman, claiming its superiority it to the various Marvel movies in terms of the issue of bathos, the way in which Marvel tends to disarm scenes with comedy in all of their movies. This used the negative example of Dr. Strange putting on the cape that wiped the tears from his face, undercurring the superhero moment with a cheap joke. By contrast Wonder Woman has virtually no humor in dramatic scenes, and treats everything entirely seriously, even something like the lasso of truth that could be treated as a joke.

While I would agree this can be a problem in the less effective Marvel movies like Dr Strange, it is not generally a problem in the good ones like The Avengers, Civil War, or Guardians of the Galaxy. In particular as I just rewatched Civil War, I will focus on that one, and the airport scene that the video referenced. The thing is that the humor is intentional as a coping mechanism by the characters, rather than something that is just happening. The characters understand the severity of what is occurring and are making jokes in an attempt to avoid dealing with what is happening. Also notice that they are not trying to kill each other, and that Steve and Tony stop making jokes at the end of the movie, when actually are trying to kill each other. This is also true in Guardians as well, in which the characters are attempting to avoid emotional trauma in the same fashion.

This is actually far more realistic than the alternative, as you see in an example like Generation Kill or Band of Brothers. Laughing at the fact that death is around the corner is extremely common in high risk professions in reality, and superheroes are sort of an evolution of that same logic.

By contrast I would argue that Wonder Woman has the opposite flaw. At no point in the movie is there any indication that Diana is having any fun. Contrast this with Iron Man's first flight scene in proper armor, or from a totally different example the first time Supergirl takes to the skies. There is an indication that what they are doing is awesome, as it should be. When Diana first does the iconic Wonder Woman pose it is all about how she unintentionally hurts someone else in the process. This is not to say that I didn't like Wonder Woman, but that it was plainly less entertaining overall than the Marvel examples.

I am curious what others think about this issue.

[Simon_Jester]

Part of this is that there's fundamentally a difference between... call it drama and comedy.

It's possible to incorporate humor into drama, but it's very easy to put in too much, when one starts thinking "oh, it'd be funny to put THIS in." Like, there's humor in the process of Stephen Strange realizing what an utter dick he's been and learning to be a nicer human being after his injury humiliates him. But it's humor that serves a dramatic purpose and fits into the plot, not slapstick.

Or think about some of the memorable humor in the Captain America movie, the first one. Remember the scene with the flagpole; that was part of the plot in that it showed that Steve Rogers had a certain creative, intelligent, independent spark that the mass of generic 'soldier recruits' didn't. Or Steve's persistent awkwardness around women; it was played for comedy more than once, but there was a point to it- establishing that at the same time that he's a great war hero, he's also a young, lonely man with limited life experience and some deep anxieties of his own.

Now, they could have put more humor into Wonder Woman without breaking things. On the other hand, I think that a Wonder Woman origin story works very well when the character has a certain... earnest, upstanding moral naivete. And that undermines the potential for comedy, because most jokes made regarding such a character are going to be made at her expense, and it undermines the basic goal of the movie if you make Wonder Woman the butt of the jokes.

[K. A. Pital]

If you treat ridiculous stories about overpowered individuals otherwise known as "superheroes" without a single laugh, normally you get the Zack Snyder crap films, with very rare exceptions.

Marvel understood that humor actually makes the genre, composed 99% of cheap cliches and bullshit, watchable. To an extent you can make films about heroes as ridiculous as Ant-Man, and it will still work and be enjoyable with just a tiny addition which is called "fun".

It is why Barbarella works and is a cult classic, but "Man of Steel" and "Batman vs Superman" are painful to watch trainwrecks-of-a-movie.

It is also why the better Marvelverse films are gearing for more fun. Thor 3 looks like a lot of fun. It is about a dumbass Norse god played by a dumbass actor, punching things, with his clever pal Loki played by a decent actor, and enjoyment and fun are clearly to be had. Dr. Strange and Ant Man were fun, although both heroes are totally ridiculous.

You just can't push this tripe with a serious face. Wonder Woman was an exception (and the film was not that good anyway). More DC wrecks will follow.

[Crazedwraith]

Wonder Woman was low key with it but not humourless. There was lots of fun bits with Steve Trevor and then Diana being fish out of water. There's a light hearted break after the trench scenes as well.

But it's a WWI flick so yeah, you can't really do too many jokes, without going full 'Blackadder Goes Forth' farce. Because it's a grim time period.

DC seems to be aware their humourless films are a problem since they keep putting every single joke in the a film in a trailer to give the appearance of good humour. Now Joss Whedon is doing Justice League reshoots and Batgirl we might get a bit more levity.

[Q99]

By contrast I would argue that Wonder Woman has the opposite flaw. At no point in the movie is there any indication that Diana is having any fun.

Hm? Diana enjoyed herself sharing ice-cream ("You should be very proud!"), in the boat scene with Steve and several of their interactions, she smiles when she realizes she can climb on a stone wall, they spend a night after the Veld battle dancing and having fun, she encourages their sniper to sing which clearly makes his day, etc..

She's not like Scowly Superman from MoS, I saw Wonder Woman having fun a lot.

[Joun_Lord]

I think WW worked better then MoS and BvS or SS because it felt more like Marvel movie then anything DC. It had some moments of levity and had moments where despite it being the middle of war it still felt relatively light.

A better fit tone-wise for the DC movie verse Wonder Woman would be the Wonder Woman from the failed pilot. Dark and brooding, no real fun in universe or out, essentially trying to out Batman Batman.

[Civil War Man]

I haven't had time to watch the video yet, but based on the summary, they seem to be conflating "humor" with "humor that I personally don't find funny." Their problem sounds like they don't find certain jokes in Marvel movies funny, and use that to argue that Marvel movies are inferior because they have jokes in dramatic scenes.

But even that premise doesn't really work, because sudden out-of-place humor in the middle of a dramatic scene has resulted in some of the most iconic and memorable scenes in the MCU. It's given us stuff like Starlord challenging Ronin to a dance-off, Ant-Man and Yellowjacket having a pitched battle on the top of a runaway Thomas the Tank Engine, and the quintessential "Puny god."

Meanwhile, one of the most memorable moments in BvS is the whole "Save Martha!" thing, and most people only remember that because it was such a stupid concept delivered in such a po-faced way that it became a punchline.

[Q99]

Civil War Man- it's not that, it is humor in dramatic moments they take issue with, and overuse thereof.

They noted multiple times it worked well- Lego Batman is full of Bathos, which is only fitting, and they noted Guardians being more a comedy (so the maker would likely agree with you on the Ronan dance off!), it also worked there for them, but meanwhile they had more problem with it in Doctor Strange because joking all the time wasn't the point and the cape trying to wipe his face undercut the drama in a scene where drama was working up until that moment. It's not that it was unfunny- it was funny- it's just that there's an overuse of this in too many Marvel dramatic moments.

Avengers 1 was another example used, and that was a movie with plenty of humor, but it didn't put it in stuff like the 'team comes together mid battle' moment.

In short, it's about balance.

[Civil War Man]

Avengers 1 was another example used, and that was a movie with plenty of humor, but it didn't put it in stuff like the 'team comes together mid battle' moment.

It actually did though. Not in that specific moment, mind, but it happens several times during the battle, especially in the case of the Hulk. Like when he sucker-punched Thor after they took down the Leviathan or the aforementioned "Puny God." Or the police officer who started talking back to Captain America until Cap took down a Chitauri soldier, after which he started repeating the orders Cap was giving. And that's intentionally not including Tony Stark bookending the battle with "We've got a Hulk" and "Let's get shawarma" since the battle wasn't technically happening then.

Injecting humor into the middle of drama has been Marvel's thing from the beginning, so liking or not liking it is simply a matter of taste. It's just that the way Adam Reynolds summed up the video's arguments makes it sound like the video was arguing that Wonder Woman's way of handling bathos was correct, while the MCU's way was incorrect (or at least less correct), which is trying to conflate one's personal taste with objectivity.

[Q99]

It actually did though. Not in that specific moment, mind, but it happens several times during the battle, especially in the case of the Hulk. Like when he sucker-punched Thor after they took down the Leviathan or the aforementioned "Puny God." Or the police officer who started talking back to Captain America until Cap took down a Chitauri soldier, after which he started repeating the orders Cap was giving. And that's intentionally not including Tony Stark bookending the battle with "We've got a Hulk" and "Let's get shawarma" since the battle wasn't technically happening then.

Sure, there's plenty of comedy scenes and some bathos in A1, it's just that it was more judicious in it's usage. 'We've got a Hulk,' is not an example of Bathos I'd say either- in that context, it's not a joke undermining the drama, it's "I'm not afraid of your army, I got something too." Hulk punching Thor was- the emotional context of that scene was 'these two worked together to beat a big thing and now they've got a moment to rest and catch their bre- HULK'S A JERK!". It undercut the first emotion in exchange for a joke that was more than worth it.

Avengers 1 had a lot of moments where they let it play out, plus a few with Bathos to mix things up, and plenty of purely comedic scenes like going for Shawarma or so on.


Hm... Thor: Ragnarok trailer has a moment I'd almost call reverse Bathos, or at least plays with Bathos. Worried about big incoming threat, then see- It's Hulk! "YES! We know each other, he's a friend from work!" - tension diffused, everything's goooooooh no he's charging anyway! It's subverting the humor to bring back some of the drama.

Injecting humor into the middle of drama has been Marvel's thing from the beginning, so liking or not liking it is simply a matter of taste. It's just that the way Adam Reynolds summed up the video's arguments makes it sound like the video was arguing that Wonder Woman's way of handling bathos was correct, while the MCU's way was incorrect (or at least less correct), which is trying to conflate one's personal taste with objectivity.

Saying that it's a question of 'Humor I personally don't find funny,' is missing the point- that wasn't their argument, and they did note bathos can be very funny including some of their examples that they had an issue with.

Rather than 'Bathos is bad,' it's that they feel that many MCU movies overuse it and aren't willing to let drama play out often. You can argue that you're ok with the amount to be sure, but I do think the amount of bathos has increased, and don't think you're portraying the argument fairly. It's argument is, basically, "Drama should be allowed to play out more too," and while Marvel has always injected humor into it, not all humor is bathos, and one can overuse bathos as one can overuse anything. Avengers 1 is an example of a good balance in their view, and similarly they have no problem when Bathos is the point- see Guardians- but that the ones less focused on it should tone it down some.

Heck, the problem with DCCU Superman isn't that he's got grim, serious scenes, it's that he doesn't have enough other scenes. He could use some good Bathos. It's all about balance. Where the balance line is, sure, is a matter of opinion, but the argument is about amounts, not types, of humor.