CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

Post by Q99 »

Creative Artists Agency, a casting agency, performed a study showing diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets
There’s been little debate over the moral arguments behind increasing diversity on- and off-screen in Hollywood, but the economic arguments haven’t always been so clear.

While women, people of color, LGBTQ folk and other historically marginalized communities in Hollywood continue to insist “diversity pays,” the box office success of films with diverse casts such as “Hidden Figures” ($230.1 million worldwide) and “Get Out” ($251.2 million worldwide) is inevitably deemed a “surprise.”

A new study and database crafted by Creative Artists Agency, however, is aiming to take some of the surprise out of box office performance, noting that across every budget level a film with a diverse cast outperforms a release not so diversified.

Additionally, the data, to be released during a private leadership conference dubbed Amplify on Wednesday in Laguna Beach, demonstrates that the average opening weekend for a film that attracts a diverse audience, often the result of having a diverse cast, is nearly three times on average a film with non-diverse audiences.
]CAA examined 413 theatrical films released from January 2014 through December 2016, detailing cast ethnicity for the top 10 billed actors per movie, a total of 2,800 people. They found that for the top 10 grossing movies in 2016, 47% of the opening weekend audience (and 45% in 2015) were people of color. Moreover, seven of the 10 highest-grossing movies from 2016 (and four from 2015’s top 10) delivered opening weekend audiences that were more than 50% non-white.

From there, the study notes that at every budget level, a film with a cast that is at least 30% non-white — CAA’s definition of a “truly diverse” film — outperforms a release that is not truly diverse in opening weekend box office. And on the audience side of things, the average opening weekend for a film that has a “truly diverse” audience, pegged at 38% to 70% non-white, is $31 million versus $12 million for films with non-diverse audiences.

Well, people have said for awhile that diversity sells, a lot of execs seem not to believe it, but Creative Artists Agency sat down to work out how much.

“One of the interesting things that the most successful movies share is that they’re broadly appealing to diverse audiences,” said Christy Haubegger, leader of CAA’s multicultural development group, who oversaw the study along with agency executive Talitha Watkins. “People want to see a world that looks like theirs.”
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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Yeah. One of the things that really appealed to me about the new Wonder Woman film was all the clearly over-40 Amazons. Wow! Women in their 50's doing important things! Being strong! Kicking ass!

Yeah, sure, the Amazons are all immortal, but they weren't all cast as 20 year olds. The queen and the general looked like middle-aged women. The movie could have sucked, I probably still would have gone to see it (or purchased the DVD) just to support middle-aged actresses and see women my age doing Important Stuff.

For that matter, one of the reasons I so loved the first Alien movie, and the Terminator franchise, was the the number of female heroines, often women who didn't need a man to rescue them, strong women, women able to fight, to escape danger on their own, to protect others.

And even if Gal Godot is "merely" 32, the heroine she plays not only competes with the men, she outdoes them. She's a woman strong enough to protect others, including men. She doesn't need to be rescued, she does the rescuing. Holy shit, I want to be a woman like that!

Rinse and repeat for every variation of human that isn't young, straight, and white (and mostly male) and that's a lot more people coming to the movies.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Excellent.

Well, this nicely strips away the only "excuse", thin though it might have been, for studios sticking to the traditional straight white male-dominated model.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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I've never understood the notion that movies need straight white male leads to appeal to audiences or that having a more diverse cast or lead means the movie is likely to underperform. It has been proven to be bullshit by female and minority lead movies doing well. Sure there are examples of movies led by a female or minority not doing so hot but its not because of the casting I don't think, its because the movie sucked. Same reason white male led movies fail, it sucks. Man of Steel and Batman V Superman didn't suck because they had male leads and men in the title, they sucked because they did, they were disliked by some and underperformed critically and financially because they just weren't great movies.

Wonder Woman did so damn good because it was a good movie, it was well written, well acted, and a plot that didn't seem to be just an excuse to show destruction porn. But I think it would have even been good if it had been Wonder Man, it was just a good movie no matter what the genitals of the lead are.

I do believe there is still racism and sexism about movies. Certainly there is some trogs who bitched about Episode 7 and Rogue One being pretty damn diverse (I mean who ever thought a Star Wars movie would show a black stormtrooper and a minority Imperial pilot and even more shocking both as sympathetic characters), people bitching about Star Trek Discovery being diverse. But I think these days it barely effects box office.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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^ Apparently it effects box office very much, according to this study.

Also, Trek has always been diverse for its time. The original cast is as diverse as a Netflix show, except the lack of (at the time) out gays. One of the big three characters isn't even fully human. Sure, they made the black lady a phone operator, but it was the 60s, Rome wasn't built in a day, etc. And she got to be 50% of the first interracial kiss ever televised.

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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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I do know that if Wonder Woman had been Wonder Man, it might've still been a good movie, but it probably wouldn't have occurred to me to go. War-era superhero movie with a male lead isn't a gimmie for me, Wonder Woman is.
Raw Shark wrote:^ Apparently it effects box office very much, according to this study.

Also, Trek has always been diverse for its time. The original cast is as diverse as a Netflix show, except the lack of (at the time) out gays. One of the big three characters isn't even fully human. Sure, they made the black lady a phone operator, but it was the 60s, Rome wasn't built in a day, etc. And she got to be 50% of the first interracial kiss ever televised.
While Uhura did the communications, she was portrayed as pretty broadly competent at that! It's surprising how much she did, really.


Honestly I was somewhat disappointed in Ent for having a white male human captain....
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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Q99 wrote:I do know that if Wonder Woman had been Wonder Man, it might've still been a good movie, but it probably wouldn't have occurred to me to go. War-era superhero movie with a male lead isn't a gimmie for me, Wonder Woman is.
It probably would have been called a copycat of Captain America if it was Wonder Man.

It's quite funny to see people on other boards downplay Wonder Woman's feminity. That her gender somehow doesn't matter at all.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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ray245 wrote: It probably would have been called a copycat of Captain America if it was Wonder Man.
Exactly. "This is just Thor + Captain America, done well but nothing we've seen before." It'd lack the gender commentary or just the context of a woman being told she can't do something... then crossing No Man's Land and having men follow. It'd be a great scene regardless, but there's deeper meaning there because of the hero being Wonder Woman.
It's quite funny to see people on other boards downplay Wonder Woman's feminity. That her gender somehow doesn't matter at all.
Yep, that's a thing that happens.

Then one looks at the reaction from the groups in question... well, as Kevin Smith said, at the start of his showing, her heard a woman yell "I've been waiting my whole life for this!". He went on to reflect how he's had that feeling before at prior movies and what that was like, and how this was the first time for them... and how his black co-host was anticipating something similar for Black Panther.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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ray245 wrote:It's quite funny to see people on other boards downplay Wonder Woman's feminity. That her gender somehow doesn't matter at all.
In a sense, this is true.

Wonder Woman, even if she's very much a woman, is not traditionally feminine. She is not meek, submissive, in need of rescue or protection. She is no less a woman for that.

And for many things gender shouldn't matter. You don't have to have a penis to be a leader. You don't have to have a vagina to care for a child. Even so, it matters that she's Wonder Woman and not Wonder Man.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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Q99 wrote: Exactly. "This is just Thor + Captain America, done well but nothing we've seen before." It'd lack the gender commentary or just the context of a woman being told she can't do something... then crossing No Man's Land and having men follow. It'd be a great scene regardless, but there's deeper meaning there because of the hero being Wonder Woman.
Yup. The setting really works well for Wonder Woman.
Yep, that's a thing that happens.

Then one looks at the reaction from the groups in question... well, as Kevin Smith said, at the start of his showing, her heard a woman yell "I've been waiting my whole life for this!". He went on to reflect how he's had that feeling before at prior movies and what that was like, and how this was the first time for them... and how his black co-host was anticipating something similar for Black Panther.
It seems hard for some people to understand why diverse connects to minorities and woman on some level, and the difference between superhero movies from regular blockbuster with a female lead.

Ripley from Aliens might be a badass, but she is not central to the franchise. She's not a hero being made to wear a man's pants by any means. Wonder Woman knows she's female and she doesn't shy away from it, nor is she obnoxious about it.
Broomstick wrote: In a sense, this is true.

Wonder Woman, even if she's very much a woman, is not traditionally feminine. She is not meek, submissive, in need of rescue or protection. She is no less a woman for that.

And for many things gender shouldn't matter. You don't have to have a penis to be a leader. You don't have to have a vagina to care for a child. Even so, it matters that she's Wonder Woman and not Wonder Man.
I'm talking how about many female protagonists often being made to "wear a man's pants". That their "badass-ness" is derived from being "tough/tougher/manlier" than guys. Wonder Woman manages to be a badass while avoiding the traditional masculine heroic stereotype. She doesn't have to meet the traditional male conception of a badass to be a badass.

Wonder Woman is not a rough, cigar-chewing, machine-gun, dress-shunning badass female hero that we might have seen in the 80s and 90s. She goes around comfortably in a dress, never hiding her identity while fighting bad guys.

In some sense, she is the anti-Mulan. That's what I'm getting at. She never had to pretend to be a man in order to be accepted as a warrior.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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ray245 wrote:Wonder Woman knows she's female and she doesn't shy away from it, nor is she obnoxious about it.
That's because this iteration of Wonder Woman is supremely comfortable being who she is. She doesn't need to prove anything. She's equally at ease in armor or in a ball gown. She's a supreme warrior AND she still is still attracted to BABY! She's not a woman trying to be a man, she's a woman who is very comfortable being a woman and doesn't let the fact she's a woman get in the way of doing what she has the skills and training to do.

I will point out that Wonder Woman hasn't always been portrayed in this manner - she first appeared in 1941 when society viewed women differently. I also think it's significant she debued in the context of WWII when women in the US left their homes to do "man's work" in the factories and cities to replace the men who had gone off to war. Society needed women to adopt what had traditionally been considered male traits.

The current movie portrays a WW who is, as I said supremely confident in her own skin portray an idealized "modern woman".
ray245 wrote:I'm talking how about many female protagonists often being made to "wear a man's pants". That their "badass-ness" is derived from being "tough/tougher/manlier" than guys. Wonder Woman manages to be a badass while avoiding the traditional masculine heroic stereotype. She doesn't have to meet the traditional male conception of a badass to be a badass.
Correct. She's not a hero, she's a heroine - she is a badass because she is such a remarkable woman.

Frankly, Gal Godot, doing most of the scene re-shoots while 5 months pregnant, including action scenes, is also pretty badass herself. I think they picked the right actress for the role.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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As a slight tangent, or maybe more of a return to topic:

This is actually fairly well known, but here it is again: Nichele Nichols was becoming frustrated with her role as Lt. Uhura just opening "hailing frequencies" and little else and was planning to quit. Martin Luther King, Jr. talked her out of it, saying just her visual presence on that bridge had meaning and was important.

Meanwhile, a little girl named Mae Jemison was watching Star Trek and noticed there was a black woman on the bridge of a space ship. Ms. Jemison grew up to be an astronaut, the first African-American woman to go into space, and directly attributed that to watching Nichele Nichols. Even if Lt. Uhura only "opened hailing frequences" she inspired a young woman who not only went on to fly in space for real (doing more than just "opening hailing frequencies", even if she did use a paraphrase of that daily while on the space shuttle) but also earn degrees in medicine and engineering.

And THAT is why diverse portrayals are so damn important - saying you can be anything you want is not the same as seeing it. Star Trek showed more than just white men on the starship, and on the bridge. There were people from every part of the Earth on that show which is nothing now but was incredibly rare (and controversial!) in the late 1960's. Women in position of authority! Asians! Blacks! OMG! Now? It merits a shrug at most.

Look at the re-vamp of Battlestar Galactica - character races and genders were changed and after the first episode people were OK with that. A female Starbuck could be an ace fighter pilot. Captain Adama played by a Mexican. Who cares as long as the story is good?

The problem is, in part, that the people with the money and the decision making power in Hollywood have long been white men who, of course, relate best to white male leads. Because they never had to, they had trouble relating to leads who weren't like them - while expecting everyone not a white male to do just that. It's taken a long time to get it into their heads that people who aren't white or male have money, too (something that was, in fact, less true 50 years ago) and will pay to see diverse-cast movies. That, and there's a slice of white men who actually can relate to leads who aren't white and male, just as non-white-non-male people can relate to white-male-leads, and they, too, will pay to see a good movie.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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Broomstick wrote: That's because this iteration of Wonder Woman is supremely comfortable being who she is. She doesn't need to prove anything. She's equally at ease in armor or in a ball gown. She's a supreme warrior AND she still is still attracted to BABY! She's not a woman trying to be a man, she's a woman who is very comfortable being a woman and doesn't let the fact she's a woman get in the way of doing what she has the skills and training to do.

I will point out that Wonder Woman hasn't always been portrayed in this manner - she first appeared in 1941 when society viewed women differently. I also think it's significant she debued in the context of WWII when women in the US left their homes to do "man's work" in the factories and cities to replace the men who had gone off to war. Society needed women to adopt what had traditionally been considered male traits.

The current movie portrays a WW who is, as I said supremely confident in her own skin portray an idealized "modern woman".
Which I think is a really helpful message to be sent to the younger generation. My niece( actually cousin once removed) has very strong preconceived notion about what's feminine and masculine. She pretty much couldn't see characters like Sarah Connor as feminine. Wonder Woman's portayal of feminity will hopefully show her feminity is something that can easily be kept while being a badass.
Correct. She's not a hero, she's a heroine - she is a badass because she is such a remarkable woman.

Frankly, Gal Godot, doing most of the scene re-shoots while 5 months pregnant, including action scenes, is also pretty badass herself. I think they picked the right actress for the role.
Yeah. I think the Internet wanted a much "tougher" woman like Gina Gerson ( more muscular and etc) for Wonder Woman. She was criticized for not being big enough to pull off scenes of her throwing men left and right. Luckily the Internet was wrong in this regard. A much "tougher" woman probably would have diluted the message. The movie would have ended up sending a message that a Woman needs to be a fitness guru before she can be seen as a hero.

As a slight tangent, or maybe more of a return to topic:

This is actually fairly well known, but here it is again: Nichele Nichols was becoming frustrated with her role as Lt. Uhura just opening "hailing frequencies" and little else and was planning to quit. Martin Luther King, Jr. talked her out of it, saying just her visual presence on that bridge had meaning and was important.

Meanwhile, a little girl named Mae Jemison was watching Star Trek and noticed there was a black woman on the bridge of a space ship. Ms. Jemison grew up to be an astronaut, the first African-American woman to go into space, and directly attributed that to watching Nichele Nichols. Even if Lt. Uhura only "opened hailing frequences" she inspired a young woman who not only went on to fly in space for real (doing more than just "opening hailing frequencies", even if she did use a paraphrase of that daily while on the space shuttle) but also earn degrees in medicine and engineering.

And THAT is why diverse portrayals are so damn important - saying you can be anything you want is not the same as seeing it. Star Trek showed more than just white men on the starship, and on the bridge. There were people from every part of the Earth on that show which is nothing now but was incredibly rare (and controversial!) in the late 1960's. Women in position of authority! Asians! Blacks! OMG! Now? It merits a shrug at most.

Look at the re-vamp of Battlestar Galactica - character races and genders were changed and after the first episode people were OK with that. A female Starbuck could be an ace fighter pilot. Captain Adama played by a Mexican. Who cares as long as the story is good?

The problem is, in part, that the people with the money and the decision making power in Hollywood have long been white men who, of course, relate best to white male leads. Because they never had to, they had trouble relating to leads who weren't like them - while expecting everyone not a white male to do just that. It's taken a long time to get it into their heads that people who aren't white or male have money, too (something that was, in fact, less true 50 years ago) and will pay to see diverse-cast movies. That, and there's a slice of white men who actually can relate to leads who aren't white and male, just as non-white-non-male people can relate to white-male-leads, and they, too, will pay to see a good movie.
The older Hollywood execs would have come from a time in which races were pretty much segregated. Their entire childhood could be spent without knowing a single black, Mexican or Asian person.

The problem now for the Hollywood industry is less of the sense that diversity is actively avoided. The problem is not having the proper set-up to allow casting directors to have a much wider pool of established minority actors and actresses.

Old Black Mentor that is kind hearted? Morgan Freeman. Black mentor figure that's tough on you? Denzel Washington. Black action star? Will Smith. Having the same minority actors costantly being casted into the same type of roles, instead of giving other lesser known actors the chance is going to be problematic.

Just look at the difficulties Hollywood had in finding an established Asian star in their 30s.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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Raw Shark wrote:Also, Trek has always been diverse for its time. The original cast is as diverse as a Netflix show, except the lack of (at the time) out gays. One of the big three characters isn't even fully human. Sure, they made the black lady a phone operator, but it was the 60s, Rome wasn't built in a day, etc. And she got to be 50% of the first interracial kiss ever televised.
I've found TV, while having multiple issues, has been a lot better in this regard, at least in the past. Sure, there's Friends and Seinfeld that are decidedly so white, the only black actor I can remember by name is Aisha Taylor. But ER was a monolith and launched with a prominent Black Male character. Not so much a lead as the show didn't work that way, but still on equal footing with other members of the cast. Same thing with Law and Order SVU. Then there was Fresh Prince, The Cosby Show (hey, it was good before all the everything). Not to mention (a show I still consider vastly underrated in Trek): putting a black man as #1 and two women directly underneath him in DS9. Voyager had it's own victories here, but was unfortunately hamstrung by terrible writing.

And TNG was kind of a disappointment in retrospect. You had..... Worf, who had to walk onto to DS9 to get any respect (outside the movies, where he was allowed to be a badass).

Also, I would give an non-outted Takei some credit. The guy dealt with more than a little racism at the time and I recall he was also a character execs wanted "pushed to the back," but Spock had much more of their attention so Sulu skated by with little resistance.

But with movies. Maybe I'm jaded, but I remember even a much better showing among women in "Red Meat" Arnold and Stallone movies than most of what is released today. Running Man, Total Recall, Judge Dredd (fuck it, I liked it), Demolition Man. These movies had female leads that may not always kick shittons of ass (but still do on multiple occasions), but they are proactive even if they end up making out with the male lead in the end.

For minority male leads, Hollywood batting averages are crazy inconsistent. They'll throw anything at Will Smith and there was a time Denzel Washington and Wesley Snipes were in the same boat, but those days are gone. "Name power" seems to be everything to them, but they are much more likely (like a billion times) to give an unknown white guy a shot at the big show than a minority.

Also, there's a rant in here about how the resurgence of Comic Book movies ruined everything and they looked at their steretypes for Comic Fans, then applied that to movies. You know, even though Blade made them more than a few bucks years before X-Men "proved" they could turn a profit.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

Post by Broomstick »

ray245 wrote:
Broomstick wrote:Correct. She's not a hero, she's a heroine - she is a badass because she is such a remarkable woman.

Frankly, Gal Godot, doing most of the scene re-shoots while 5 months pregnant, including action scenes, is also pretty badass herself. I think they picked the right actress for the role.
Yeah. I think the Internet wanted a much "tougher" woman like Gina Gerson ( more muscular and etc) for Wonder Woman. She was criticized for not being big enough to pull off scenes of her throwing men left and right. Luckily the Internet was wrong in this regard. A much "tougher" woman probably would have diluted the message. The movie would have ended up sending a message that a Woman needs to be a fitness guru before she can be seen as a hero.
That would have been more of the same "a woman has to be more like a man" meme. Outside of a discreet minority strong women still look like women. They have curves. They don't bulk up or get "cut" like men. Gal Godot is much more representative of the typical woman. Another plus for casting her, as well as the women the cast as Amazons (of all ages).
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

Post by Broomstick »

TheFeniX wrote:I've found TV, while having multiple issues, has been a lot better in this regard, at least in the past.
A major factor there is that while TV does cost a lot of money it's still orders of magnitude cheaper than the movies. It's a lot easier to get funding for a TV show perceived as risky than for a movie.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

Post by ray245 »

TheFeniX wrote: For minority male leads, Hollywood batting averages are crazy inconsistent. They'll throw anything at Will Smith and there was a time Denzel Washington and Wesley Snipes were in the same boat, but those days are gone. "Name power" seems to be everything to them, but they are much more likely (like a billion times) to give an unknown white guy a shot at the big show than a minority.
Yeah. It's on some level understandable that studios are afraid of throwing money at a film with an unknown minority actress as a lead over the most famous female action star of her generation. But the problem lies with the fact that there simply aren't many big name minority female stars to fit certain roles. In other words, there simply isn't enough roles given to minorities for them to build up a good resume, to begin with.
Broomstick wrote: That would have been more of the same "a woman has to be more like a man" meme. Outside of a discreet minority strong women still look like women. They have curves. They don't bulk up or get "cut" like men. Gal Godot is much more representative of the typical woman. Another plus for casting her, as well as the women the cast as Amazons (of all ages).
I think my problem with Wonder Woman is there isn't enough woman that fits the mold of Gal Gadot among the Amazons. I know the Amazons are supposed to be the elite, but not everyone needs to be the world's number 1 heavyweight boxers to be a good warrior. If we can see slightly lanky guys as good soldiers in war movie, we can see more Amazons that aren't the top 0.0001% of woman in terms of fitness.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

Post by TheFeniX »

Broomstick wrote:
TheFeniX wrote:I've found TV, while having multiple issues, has been a lot better in this regard, at least in the past.
A major factor there is that while TV does cost a lot of money it's still orders of magnitude cheaper than the movies. It's a lot easier to get funding for a TV show perceived as risky than for a movie.
True, but movies are designed to make money and "move on." For the most part. If it's popular, you might see a series, but once again: those movies tend to exist independent of one another and the studio can always write off a loss.

With TV, the point is the continuation of a series and these series can't always rely on name power to "sell" an audience. ER's biggest name at the start was "Goose from Top Gun" who would later be known by his given name. And still, they cast "The asshole black guy from Coming to America" in a lead role and had him go toe-to-toe with the rest of the cast from the start. Even after the show was a breakaway success, they continued to up the ante adding in multiple minority actors, of all races, and pushing more risky stories.

I would expect, once the audience was hooked, TV producers to dial it back, but the good shows don't.

I think Hollywood should be looking to TV for new actors to build up. Will Smith + Fresh Prince and all. But that show, for a comedy, had a lot of range and Smith was able to put together a solid resume from that. But the current emphasis on either moronic one note comedy or gritty-grit-grittier reality shows means more minority actors are cast into narrow roles and have little room to breathe. So, "we need someone Urban, how about that black guy from Gritty Drama #45?"
ray245 wrote:Yeah. It's on some level understandable that studios are afraid of throwing money at a film with an unknown minority actress as a lead over the most famous female action star of her generation. But the problem lies with the fact that there simply aren't many big name minority female stars to fit certain roles. In other words, there simply isn't enough roles given to minorities for them to build up a good resume, to begin with.
Women do have it a bit easier here. A lot of break-outs got their start as love interests/damsels or just "supporting eyecandy." Casting attractive women of any race doesn't seem to need a reason. It's sexist but it gets women work and a lot of actresses who got their start there turned into legit Movie Stars that got people off their ass and into theater seats.

And that list is fairly long, even ignoring the ladies of the 90s who moved into the next century. The list of "Top black male actors" is slim whereas "Top female actresses" is filled with new blood. Though, there is likely a fair amount of sexism at play since "actress over 30 = capital crime" but Charlize Theron can still get a headline. Also, there's more than a few white women on that list, but you've still got names like Zoe Saldana for just one.

But a minority man, except those dudes who fit a certain mold like Vin Diesel or Dwayne Johnson or can pass for "white/mostly white", generally needs a "reason" to be cast in anything but a blow-off role. The big names there? There aren't that many and they're getting old. Some are really old and no one seems set to replace them.

I find Hollywood will always have a place for women, no matter the race, genre, or role but non-white (or those who can't pass for) dudes will need not apply at some point. Hope I'm wrong here. But I look at Elba and two roles: Thor and Pacific Rim. He nailed those so well, but how much screentime is that? Now, even as "exist to build up the main character" female roles. Compare the screentime. Compare the motivations of those characters both to the Male Lead AND other unrelated plot points. You get more information, the actress gets to show more range.

This is why it doesn't surprise me Idris Elba (or, going back, Sam Jackson) can play second fiddle his whole life while someone like Sandra Bullock can do it for Reeves and Stallone, then break-out into her own movie stardom. It's rarer for Minority women, but I see it happening a lot more often for them than minority men.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

Post by ray245 »

TheFeniX wrote:Women do have it a bit easier here. A lot of break-outs got their start as love interests/damsels or just "supporting eyecandy." Casting attractive women of any race doesn't seem to need a reason. It's sexist but it gets women work and a lot of actresses who got their start there turned into legit Movie Stars that got people off their ass and into theater seats.
Not denying that, but there is a tendency to overuse the same attractive minority female actress. Halle Berry in the past was cast in almost every black attractive female role in Hollywood in the past.
And that list is fairly long, even ignoring the ladies of the 90s who moved into the next century. The list of "Top black male actors" is slim whereas "Top female actresses" is filled with new blood. Though, there is likely a fair amount of sexism at play since "actress over 30 = capital crime" but Charlize Theron can still get a headline. Also, there's more than a few white women on that list, but you've still got names like Zoe Saldana for just one.
How many Black female Superstars are around today? Other than Zoe Saldana.
But a minority man, except those dudes who fit a certain mold like Vin Diesel or Dwayne Johnson or can pass for "white/mostly white", generally needs a "reason" to be cast in anything but a blow-off role. The big names there? There aren't that many and they're getting old. Some are really old and no one seems set to replace them.
Chiwetel Ejiofor? Chadwick Boseman? John Boyega?
I find Hollywood will always have a place for women, no matter the race, genre, or role but non-white (or those who can't pass for) dudes will need not apply at some point. Hope I'm wrong here. But I look at Elba and two roles: Thor and Pacific Rim. He nailed those so well, but how much screentime is that? Now, even as "exist to build up the main character" female roles. Compare the screentime. Compare the motivations of those characters both to the Male Lead AND other unrelated plot points. You get more information, the actress gets to show more range.

This is why it doesn't surprise me Idris Elba (or, going back, Sam Jackson) can play second fiddle his whole life while someone like Sandra Bullock can do it for Reeves and Stallone, then break-out into her own movie stardom. It's rarer for Minority women, but I see it happening a lot more often for them than minority men.
Chiwetel Ejiofor is the main lead for his film, so was Denzel Washington when he won his Oscar. So I won't say they always play second fiddle. It's not as rare as you imagine.

It's once you move beyond Blacks and Whites in Hollywood that you start to see far less representation.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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ray245 wrote:Not denying that, but there is a tendency to overuse the same attractive minority female actress. Halle Berry in the past was cast in almost every black attractive female role in Hollywood in the past.
True, but she is/was a far-cry from the only popular black actress. Thandie Newton and Vanessa Williams. Rashida Jones would come along a bit later. But even Whoppie Golberg could get a headline.
How many Black female Superstars are around today? Other than Zoe Saldana.
This is where it gets into the gritty and you kind of have to break things out. Women aren't a minority, but they obviously deal with issues men do not. However, you've got the old guard and a stable replacement of actresses breaking out and being allowed to do their own thing. ScarJo and Jennifer Lawrence for just two examples.

Even if Saldana replaced Berry, as bad as that is: who has replaced Will Smith? In a "we need a guy who people like, race doesn't matter" way. And it's sad we have to talk about it like that because prominent black leads are dwindling, not growing.
Chiwetel Ejiofor? Chadwick Boseman? John Boyega?
I've given credit to Disney before for throwing the SW franchise at a black man and a woman with zero star power. But the former two on your list, those guys aren't near what I'm talking about, none of them are. They could break-out in the near future, but based on my experience, I don't see it happening.

I'm not saying these aren't prominent actors, but I mean actors a studio shits themselves over and does everything to get them in the spotlight. Like how Hugh Jackman was everywhere after X-Men, or any other number of white actors/actresses.
Chiwetel Ejiofor is the main lead for his film, so was Denzel Washington when he won his Oscar. So I won't say they always play second fiddle. It's not as rare as you imagine.
In a movie called "Black Panther" even Hollywood doesn't have it's head far enough up its ass to white-wash that. Denzel is a legit movie-star. Has been for years, though Training day was 16 years ago. How many legit "get this fucking guy right now, throw him into anything" black men are there in Hollywood? Historically since I've been able to watch a TV? 2: Washington and Smith. Even Sam Jackson or James Earl Jones didn't have that much purchasing power. MAYBE Morgan Freeman, but he's "the old guy with that soothing voice" in every movie.

I think I've said this before, but I'm talking about "could be up against Tom Cruise and win" when it came to getting a role.

But this is where I catch myself mixing up posts and have to clarify: I do agree being a minority actress sucks way more ass than being a white actress. But at the least, Hollywood doesn't seem actively terrified of another black superstar actress, unlike actor. And yes, there are minorities who get even worse treatment. But they are more than willing to "toss" minority actresses in as (much of the time, well-developed) eye-candy for the audience. And when said eye candy is the love interest: they near always get notable screentime and exposure.

You don't find that as much for men. Even when you do, since white actresses are more likely to even be the lead and Hollywood is pants-shitingly terrified of a white woman kissing (or even hinting at intimacy) anything "not-white," well.... there you go.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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With minority actors, Hollywood has a bit of a thing of going, "It's not minority actors audiences want, it's this actor specifically."

Will Smith becomes a money printing machine? "Nah, we shouldn't take this as a sign to search for other Will Smiths, we just need to put Smith in everything."

Jackie Chan? Halle Berry? Etc..
TheFeniX wrote: I find Hollywood will always have a place for women, no matter the race, genre, or role but non-white (or those who can't pass for) dudes will need not apply at some point.
Ah, don't forget- "Unless you're in certain ages."

It's reportedly very hard for women who get too old for the 'attractive young adult,' roles but aren't yet old enough for the 'mature older woman,' roles to get jobs, the hiring slum/down turn in the middle is a normal part of their career arc.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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Raw Shark wrote:And she got to be 50% of the first interracial kiss ever televised.
Fun fact; this is just an urban myth.

It's actually more prevalent than you would think. A good example of this is the film The Crimson Kimono (1959), which predates Plato's Stepchildren by nearly a decade. James Shigeta (later known as Mr Takagi from Die Hard) kissed Victoria Shaw, and it even made the poster. There's earlier examples, but it's hard to find clips online.

Also, US TV featured interracial kisses in both I, Spy and Wild Wild West, before Trek's alien enforced intimacy. Even then, the UK was doing this in the fifties.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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ray245 wrote: I think my problem with Wonder Woman is there isn't enough woman that fits the mold of Gal Gadot among the Amazons. I know the Amazons are supposed to be the elite, but not everyone needs to be the world's number 1 heavyweight boxers to be a good warrior. If we can see slightly lanky guys as good soldiers in war movie, we can see more Amazons that aren't the top 0.0001% of woman in terms of fitness.
Though if one wasn't in top shape at first, they would be after a few years. 'Top shape' being variable in form depending on individual and specialty, of course.

Antiope was literally Princess Buttercup from the Princess Bride.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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Q99 wrote:
ray245 wrote: I think my problem with Wonder Woman is there isn't enough woman that fits the mold of Gal Gadot among the Amazons. I know the Amazons are supposed to be the elite, but not everyone needs to be the world's number 1 heavyweight boxers to be a good warrior. If we can see slightly lanky guys as good soldiers in war movie, we can see more Amazons that aren't the top 0.0001% of woman in terms of fitness.
Though if one wasn't in top shape at first, they would be after a few years. 'Top shape' being variable in form depending on individual and specialty, of course.

Antiope was literally Princess Buttercup from the Princess Bride.
Yeah, I am talking about it will be nicer if more background extras had the body shapes like Antiope as opposed to the world's number 1 boxer and etc. It feels like they are overcompensating a little by making most of the Amazon extras nearly all bodybuilders, boxers and etc. I mean we have already moved on from the need to depict all Navy Seals as having body figures like Arnold Schwarsneger or Slyaster Stallone.

I mean look at the German soldiers extras in the film. It's not like they''re the world's best boxers, powerlifters or anything.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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The whole crew was athletes, but they came from a variety of fields, not even mostly bodybuilders (check the backgrounds, we had an equestrian, a bobsledder, a crossfit champion, a MMA fighter, a police officer, a few models). I thought they had a good variety of builds and heights and such, personally I was impressed we had a range of body types.

Here's a bunch of the actresses

There is a big difference between an Amazon and a soldier anyway. The Amazons all practice fighting regularly- old school, stick, sword, spear, and bow fighting. That's a lot different than someone who lives in a trench hoping artillery doesn't land on them. The Amazons aren't all going to be fit in the same way, but they're all going to be fit in a way a soldier doesn't have to be.
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