CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

Post by ray245 »

Q99 wrote:The whole crew was athletes, but they came from a variety of fields, not even mostly bodybuilders (check the backgrounds, we had an equestrian, a bobsledder, a crossfit champion, a MMA fighter, a police officer, a few models). I thought they had a good variety of builds and heights and such, personally I was impressed we had a range of body types.

Here's a bunch of the actresses
I certainly don't remember the Amazons have too much variety when I was watching it. I think this is mostly because most of the more prominent Amazons( other than the main stars) tends to be those body-building type. Patty Jenkins hyping up those that are boxers and etc certainly didn't help my memory.
There is a big difference between an Amazon and a soldier anyway. The Amazons all practice fighting regularly- old school, stick, sword, spear, and bow fighting. That's a lot different than someone who lives in a trench hoping artillery doesn't land on them. The Amazons aren't all going to be fit in the same way, but they're all going to be fit in a way a soldier doesn't have to be.
Yeah, but we're pretty much talking about a fantasy warrior race that is effectively immortal anyway. If the audience can buy an actress like ScaJo kicking ass as a super-assasin, I think they can buy actress who didn't bulk up as Amazons. This isn't to say we should have fewer top athletes as Amazons, but if not every male actor need to bulk up to be seen as warriors in an ancient/medieval era, then there's no need to expect any different for female actresses.

You have an army of top 0,0001% of female in the world acting as Amazons vs. a bunch of male extras acting as German soldiers that are merely the top 50% in the world. It kinda sends out the wrong message in some sense? Like if a woman wants to win against a guy in a fight, they need to be the top 0.0001% of the women in the whole world!
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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ray245 wrote: I certainly don't remember the Amazons have too much variety when I was watching it. I think this is mostly because most of the more prominent Amazons( other than the main stars) tends to be those body-building type. Patty Jenkins hyping up those that are boxers and etc certainly didn't help my memory.
Well, I did? Like, I remember a scene in the training where we had a smaller thinner amazon up against Ann Wolfe (who I think is the biggest Amazon of all), and meanwhile Phillipus (the black senator amazon) was also not as imposing.

Here's more
Yeah, but we're pretty much talking about a fantasy warrior race that is effectively immortal anyway. If the audience can buy an actress like ScaJo kicking ass as a super-assasin, I think they can buy actress who didn't bulk up as Amazons. This isn't to say we should have fewer top athletes as Amazons, but if not every male actor need to bulk up to be seen as warriors in an ancient/medieval era, then there's no need to expect any different for female actresses.
I mean, just looking at the photos, a lot of them were simply... fit. And within that we had different heights, degrees of bulkiness, builds, etc..

You said you wanted more like Antiope but she was more muscular than a number of them, and there's certainly nothing wrong with most of them having a good amount of muscle- we don't see that a lot in hollywood and I loved it! Most women can get some visible muscles with work of that nature.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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Q99 wrote: Well, I did? Like, I remember a scene in the training where we had a smaller thinner amazon up against Ann Wolfe (who I think is the biggest Amazon of all), and meanwhile Phillipus (the black senator amazon) was also not as imposing.
Probably have to re-watched it again or wait for the dvd to be out, but it just feels like all the most imposing woman are the ones being depicted right in front of the camera. I was thinking of actresses or extras that have body shapes more similar to Scarlet Johansson or Gal Gadot for that matter.
I mean, just looking at the photos, a lot of them were simply... fit. And within that we had different heights, degrees of bulkiness, builds, etc..

You said you wanted more like Antiope but she was more muscular than a number of them, and there's certainly nothing wrong with most of them having a good amount of muscle- we don't see that a lot in hollywood and I loved it!
Nothing wrong with a decent amount of muscle, but I just don't think the notion of women warriors need a massive amount of muscle to be taken seriously as a threat. I just would've like to see more Amazons that look like Gal Gadot being more prominent. Fit, strong, but certainly within the realm of fitness, the average woman can strive towards.

Compare that with male "role models". We've gone past the stage where males need to become an Arnold Scawherenger to be seen as a strong warrior. Plenty of average male actors like Ewan Mcgregor are cast as Navy Seals and etc.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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Superhumans don't need massive amounts of muscle to be taken seriously as a threat because they are, you know, superhuman.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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And Gal's not lacking in muscle either, she trained up for the role.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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The Romulan Republic wrote:Superhumans don't need massive amounts of muscle to be taken seriously as a threat because they are, you know, superhuman.
Except almost every superhero has been trained or asked to put up massive amount of muscle for the role, such as Superman.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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ray245 wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Superhumans don't need massive amounts of muscle to be taken seriously as a threat because they are, you know, superhuman.
Except almost every superhero has been trained or asked to put up massive amount of muscle for the role, such as Superman.
Which is... kind of stupid, really.

And there are counter-examples. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for example, comes to mind. Sarah Michelle Gellar is most certainly not a body-builder, but I never had a problem believing that Buffy could throw grown men around, because a specific part of the premise is that Slayers possess superhuman strength.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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Are we arguing against women supers having muscle now?

Like, I know it's not strictly required, dependent on the power set and background, but I don't think it at all negative to have the Amazons all do some training in that area. Not massive amounts but they did practice- which is actually part of the whole Amazon thing, they love physical challenges and training and the like.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Yeah, fair enough.

I guess the argument is more "you should have a variety of body types", though.

For that matter, the Amazons are supposed to be an entire society, yes? In any civilization, realistically, you wouldn't have all warriors, whatever the "warrior race" cliche pretends.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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The Romulan Republic wrote:Yeah, fair enough.

I guess the argument is more "you should have a variety of body types", though.
Yes, and they're pretty varied, but they all work out. I mean, I posted links to the pictures of the actresses, all the same they are not. There's ones skinnier than Gal, there's ones bulkier than Gal. Taller, shorter, etc.. They're all some form of athletic, but that is a very diverse category.
For that matter, the Amazons are supposed to be an entire society, yes? In any civilization, realistically, you wouldn't have all warriors, whatever the "warrior race" cliche pretends.
They're a magical island of immortals set up by the gods. I think everyone has 'warrior' as a second job- at least that's how it works in the comics, like with Io the blacksmith. And even for those who it's secondary, physical activity is their their major game/hobby going back to the Marston run.

The bulk of the Amazons we see are in the training grounds, too. So... yea.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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Joun_Lord wrote:I've never understood the notion that movies need straight white male leads to appeal to audiences or that having a more diverse cast or lead means the movie is likely to underperform. .
It's actually quite simple. Hollywood knows they can sell Tom Cruise or Tom Cruise adjacent products (generically handsome white dudes in the 30-50 age range with mid brown hair and an athletic but not overly muscled build).

Ergo it will attempt to turn as many things into the product it knows it can sell.

It's not that those things necessarily do sell, but that hollywood knows that in principle they can.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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Vendetta wrote:
Joun_Lord wrote:I've never understood the notion that movies need straight white male leads to appeal to audiences or that having a more diverse cast or lead means the movie is likely to underperform. .
It's actually quite simple. Hollywood knows they can sell Tom Cruise or Tom Cruise adjacent products (generically handsome white dudes in the 30-50 age range with mid brown hair and an athletic but not overly muscled build).
This. It's pretty simple really. White people make up the majority of movie-goers. Page 14. So, under-representation of black actors actually makes sense but you'd think strong Hispanic characters would be more on their radar as that demographic continues to grow.

Hollywood has been shown time and time against that minorities can sell and that audiences don't really care. But they still act like it's this huge risk to take.

Movie studios just seem to be very risk adverse, even when there's no risk OR that risk has already proven to be easily overcome. And this isn't just about race. Gory red meat action flicks were incredibly popular for YEARS. But Hollywood dove into PG-13 mode for over a decade after the success of a few action movies in this regard. Look at the amount of crap Ryan Reynolds had to go through to get Deadpool made. There's nothing "shocking" about how over-the-top Deadpool was with violence, cussing, and titties: I grew up seeing movies like that.

For my own semi-rant, I think this came from the huge number of flops centered around Hollywood trying to find the "next Arnold." Even Dwayne Johnson got roped into some trash-heaps until he just did his own thing for The Rundown and Hollywood realized "We don't need another Arnold, The Rock is awesome just being The Rock." Hey, maybe it was his cameo in Voyager opposite Ryan when people started to love him. Bwahaha!

Hollywood seems to think popularity revolves solely around names, and they aren't totally wrong here. But this becomes a major issue for minority actors since when looking for new talent, there's more than enough ruggedly handsome white guys and beautiful white women to fill a roster, so why take "risks" on another ethnicity?

And it works for them. Even in the PG-13 sanitized action field: Chris Hemsworth and Huge Jacked Man. And that's just two from MY days of watching movies as an adult. There's so many more. Two roles to relatively unknown good looking white guys: BOOM! Movie-stars. People fucking love them. Same shit worked for Mel Gibson and he wasn't even auditioning.

Not to say this makes movies terrible in their own right. Because Tom Cruise, even given his star power and real life insanity, can disappear into a role. He's an incredible actor. You will never convince me otherwise. But so is someone like Will Smith. And when he's allowed to dial-back his "Fresh Prince" persona, it really shows.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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One of the things this study shows is it's not really being risk averse, and indeed they're willing to take a more detrimental path even though it doesn't pay off.

Sure, they say it's all about names... but they also give more opportunities to become names to white male actors.

To name two actors I actually like, Taylor Kitsch got multiple high-budget blockbusters in the same year, John Carter and Battleship, both of which flopped- he was being pushed big time without proving himself a 'name that sells' first. Charlie Hunnam similarly had the ok performing Pacific Rim, and then getting in the big budget King Arthur film that just flopped. I like both actors and wouldn't mind seeing more of them! But their opportunities outstripped their proven draw by a lot.

Hollywood "knows" they can sell generically handsome white dudes in the 30-50 age range with mid brown hair and an athletic but not overly muscled build, but they do this by shooting more white men into big roles, and they also act like they shouldn't try to make another Will Smith by given black actors the same opportunity. They should logically know there's at least a couple types they can sell in leading roles, but they still act like white dudes are overwhelming the safe option.

Heck, not just with race, gender- Women are, of course, a huge portion of the movie audience, but every time a women-targeted film blows up big it's treated as a 'surprise,' and there's not the rush to copycat that male-targeted blockbusters is, and women-lead action films are famously discounted.

Similarly there's a thing with directors and gender- a woman director can have a hit or two, and then one underperformer often sees her job offers dry up, and they almost never get tapped for big-budget movies (Patty Jenkins was a proven director and had to fight for a decade to get WW), while notable male directors can have a string of flops and still get, not just work, but huge projects.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

Post by Bedlam »

I don't know if I'm unusual or not but I don't choose what films I watch by actor and I hardly even know who directs most things I see. Really its the type and concept of the film which normally decides if I'll watch it or not.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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Normally that's how I am, but I do make exceptions. I'll watch movies because they star Hugh Jackman, for example, and after noting that two movies I enjoyed were by the same director (James Mangold) I rented 3:10 to Yuma because he directed it. So yeah, even for someone who doesn't follow such things closely name recognition is a factor.

(I'm also a fan of Halle Berry and wish she'd gotten a lot more good parts, and I like Zoe Saldana, too, so it's not just men with me)
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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It does matter to me in some cases, but it's only one factor and by both necessity and preference many movies are going to have leading people who are new to leading role slots- I mean, recognizability is a minus some of the time, it depends on if you're fine with the actor being recognized.

And, I definitely do care about the diversity of the casing of the leads and 80%+ of the time I'm going to prefer someone other than a white male for a change of pace. I mean, I know all actors are people and all but I really can't help but think of a lot of them as 'generic white guy'. Sorry, actor-who-was-in-the-recent-Godzilla.

Heck, Chris Pine even comments how similar he, Chris Evens, Chris Pratt, and Chris Hemsworth are in a SNL sketch.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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Q99 wrote:It does matter to me in some cases, but it's only one factor and by both necessity and preference many movies are going to have leading people who are new to leading role slots- I mean, recognizability is a minus some of the time, it depends on if you're fine with the actor being recognized.

And, I definitely do care about the diversity of the casing of the leads and 80%+ of the time I'm going to prefer someone other than a white male for a change of pace. I mean, I know all actors are people and all but I really can't help but think of a lot of them as 'generic white guy'. Sorry, actor-who-was-in-the-recent-Godzilla.

Heck, Chris Pine even comments how similar he, Chris Evens, Chris Pratt, and Chris Hemsworth are in a SNL sketch.
Well, the overseas market might mess with that a little. China's taste for Hollywood movies do seem to concentrate on the white male/white female leads as opposed to diversity. To many overseas market, Hollywood Whites are the "diversity" they are seeking. There was news that some Chinese cinema's censored John Boyega from the TFA poster.

Also, therei s the issue of why would they care for an Asian-American actress/actor when they have their own superstars to go crazy over?
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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ray245 wrote: Well, the overseas market might mess with that a little. China's taste for Hollywood movies do seem to concentrate on the white male/white female leads as opposed to diversity. To many overseas market, Hollywood Whites are the "diversity" they are seeking. There was news that some Chinese cinema's censored John Boyega from the TFA poster.

Also, therei s the issue of why would they care for an Asian-American actress/actor when they have their own superstars to go crazy over?
Yea, that is true, view The Mummy actually doing well overseas due to Tom Cruise-like, though with the additional note that on the whole that decision didn't come close to paying off. Still, nothing about diversity says you have to get rid of your Brad Pitts, Chris Pines, etc., just... mix 'em up a bit and don't put them in an all-white cast. That's what the money says.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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Q99 wrote: Yea, that is true, view The Mummy actually doing well overseas due to Tom Cruise-like, though with the additional note that on the whole that decision didn't come close to paying off. Still, nothing about diversity says you have to get rid of your Brad Pitts, Chris Pines, etc., just... mix 'em up a bit and don't put them in an all-white cast. That's what the money says.
I think some overseas market might even be fine with an all-white cast, especially if the country is fairly monoculture like Japan, Korea, China and etc.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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ray245 wrote: I think some overseas market might even be fine with an all-white cast, especially if the country is fairly monoculture like Japan, Korea, China and etc.
Which I don't think is near making up for 1/3rd the opening on average.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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Q99 wrote:
ray245 wrote: I think some overseas market might even be fine with an all-white cast, especially if the country is fairly monoculture like Japan, Korea, China and etc.
Which I don't think is near making up for 1/3rd the opening on average.
Well the Chinese box office market is going to grow and potentially surpass the US market soon. Hollywood is already being influenced by Chinese audience's and government's taste/demands.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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And there's a lovely thought- a world where no major movie gets made unless it toes the Chinese government line.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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The Romulan Republic wrote:And there's a lovely thought- a world where no major movie gets made unless it toes the Chinese government line.
Well it's not like Hollywood had make good use of the time to produce movies critical of the Chinese government before the Chinese market became an important source of revenue.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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ray245 wrote:Chiwetel Ejiofor is the main lead for his film, so was Denzel Washington when he won his Oscar. So I won't say they always play second fiddle. It's not as rare as you imagine.

It's once you move beyond Blacks and Whites in Hollywood that you start to see far less representation.
There is actually some nuance regarding opportunities for black male leads in particular. There are plenty of movies that have black male leads, particularly when you start including movies about civil rights or slavery. But there are much fewer instances of black actors who can reliably secure roles that are traditionally filled by white actors. Will Smith is pretty much the primary example of this, thanks in large part to him killing it in Independence Day and Men in Black. Denzel Washington and Halle Berry have also pulled this off in the past, though on a much smaller scale than Smith has.

There are a bunch of other examples, but usually in one-off roles or as a recurring character in a franchise. It does seem to be becoming more common these days, and interestingly enough seems to be more heavily concentrated in comic books adaptations, even going back to when it was almost unheard of. We've had Eartha Kitt as Catwoman, Billy Dee Williams as Harvey Dent, Michael Clarke Duncan as Kingpin, Colin McFarline as the Gotham PD commissioner before Gordon, Idris Elba as Heimdall, Laurence Fishburne as Perry White, Michael B. Jordan as the Human Torch, Will Smith as Deadshot, and Chiwetel Ejiofor as Baron Mordo.
Broomstick wrote:Normally that's how I am, but I do make exceptions. I'll watch movies because they star Hugh Jackman, for example, and after noting that two movies I enjoyed were by the same director (James Mangold) I rented 3:10 to Yuma because he directed it. So yeah, even for someone who doesn't follow such things closely name recognition is a factor.

(I'm also a fan of Halle Berry and wish she'd gotten a lot more good parts, and I like Zoe Saldana, too, so it's not just men with me)
Most people in my family are the same way about not necessarily caring about stars and directors. One of the exceptions for us is that we'll pretty much give any Coen Brothers movie a chance, since we've found that generally even their worst stuff tends to be at least entertaining.

What happens more often is that there are some movies we won't see because of a star or director. Usually either because they are an awful human being and we don't want to financially support them, their style of movie-making doesn't gel with what we like to watch, or both.
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Re: CAA study shows diverse casting increases box office potential across all budgets

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ray245 wrote:I think some overseas market might even be fine with an all-white cast, especially if the country is fairly monoculture like Japan, Korea, China and etc.
This is something I've wondered about for years. I've read more than a few good articles on it, but it's hard for me to judge what's good info and what's just old school racism. A part of this brought up was, when reaching for overseas audiences, white actors would be preferred not only because "it's the standard" as Hollywood loves white leads, but also that Japan and China aren't exactly on the best of terms. So, white actors = no controversy.
ray245 wrote:Well it's not like Hollywood had make good use of the time to produce movies critical of the Chinese government before the Chinese market became an important source of revenue.
Honestly, and I don't want to come off like a dick here but I find it's true, I feel like the Chinese have been given a considerable "pass" on a lot of the negative racism Hollywood normally portrays. Like, the Japanese (business sense and culture) has been harangued in movies like Rising Sun, Robocop, and even Gung Ho. We also routinely deal with "Japan fighting to come into the 20th century" with movies like Last Samurai. And man, even the Japanese can tear apart their own culture in anime. The "elders demanding respect while fucking everything up and the new generation has to fix everything" is widely prevalent.

But, as racist as it is, how many badass "Kung Fu" movies and actors did we get out of China over the decades? And which portray Chinese history and mythology in a pretty positive light. I mean, we're talking almost "The Alamo" levels of Chinese Propaganda, developed/adapted by western studios.

Sure, Hollywood seems to have tossed Kung-fu movies into the dumpster lately, but at least I got some names there. For Japanese actors (aside from Mako and Tagawa who are "those Japanese guys from everything Japanese-y") I got Ken Watanabe*.... and.... shit I can't even name an actress and I feel shitty for that. The girl from live action DBZ? Is she half-Japanese? Fuck, I can name more Japanese porn stars and I only know one by name.

*Oh, George Takei... but that's fucking cheating.
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