Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

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Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-24 01:15am

This is in response to something that came up in my James Bond vs. Voldemort thread. Its kind of tangential to the original topic, so here goes:

Basically, the question is, how could you outfit a Muggle to protect themselves from Harry Potter-verse magical threats? If you wish, you can expand it to discuss ideas for other universes as well, but I think the Potterverse, with its clear distinction between those who are born wizards and those without magic, and its wide array of everyday magical items, is well-suited to this topic.

Also, it has to be stuff that does not require actual spell-casting/innate magical ability to use. Basically, what sort of pre-made magical do-dads, combined with mundane equipment, could a Muggle effectively use to balance the scales against a wizard?

Some initial thoughts:

Dragon-hide clothes (dragons are spell-resistant, is their leather as well?).

Invisibility cloaks (cost may be prohibitive for ordinary citizens).

Bezoars (to counter poison).

Dark detectors such as sneakoscopes (limited reliability).

Goblin silver weapons (infused with Basilisk venom if possible, though that is going to be very hard to get a hold of).

Hmm... can Phoenix tears be preserved? Keeping a vial for treating disease or injury would be handy (though again, that'll be a rare, high-end item).
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby madd0ct0r » 2017-04-24 03:39am

Iron filings.
Stone with natural hole in
Riot sheild
Video camera with Alien style motion detectors (for charms that baffle the senses not physics)
Dog that loves me

Taser and mace.

Null response chip sensors. If gadgets don't work in areas of magic, failure of a sensor indicates magic
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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby Lord Revan » 2017-04-24 03:58am

A big question is that how much of those is avaible to muggles or at least all but most resourceful. IIRC the wizarding world seems to (covertly) restrict access to magical materials and items so a muggle getting his hands on actual dragon hide might be next to impossible.
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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-24 06:39am

Lord Revan wrote:A big question is that how much of those is avaible to muggles or at least all but most resourceful. IIRC the wizarding world seems to (covertly) restrict access to magical materials and items so a muggle getting his hands on actual dragon hide might be next to impossible.


Yeah.

Obviously, it would have to be a Muggle who's aware of magic, with means a Muggle with magical relations who could presumably procure this stuff for them.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-24 06:50am

Edit: Or a Muggle head of state/head of government who's aware of such things, technically, though I can't imagine, say, the President dropping in to visit a Wizarding shopping district, given the attention that it would draw.

Edit: Okay, well, maybe Trumpolini would be that stupid. :roll:
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby Lord Revan » 2017-04-24 09:27am

I suspect that locations that have magical items have wards/charms to prevent unwanted visitors (at least most of the time), so getting there even if you know they exist might be an issue. Also it wouldn't surprice me at all if giving magical items to muggles was illegal in the wizarding world.

EDIT: I mean the HP wizarding world has lasted centuries without being common knowledge so it can't be that easy to access magical locations or items.
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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2017-04-24 11:04am

One thing that would be very useful would be the Shield Hats/Cloaks/etc developed by the Weaseley Twins at the start of Book Six - they considered them a prank, then the Ministry placed a huge order. They state it won't stop the major curses but minor stuff, stunners etc, are blocked, and apparently with no need for the user to cast anything. Pair that with dragonhide body armour and you've got a pretty solid protection against unexpected attack.

Another useful Weaseley product was Peruvian Instant Darkness Powder - which apparently works against even magical light sources - very useful for escape and evade.

Bezoars, as mentioned, are a good idea for protection against poison - though obviously only effective against something that works slowly or noticeably enough for you to realise you've been poisoned and use the thing.

Those items should be moderately easy for a muggle with knowledge of magic/access to Diagon Alley to procure. Other things like invisibility cloaks would be harder, but probably possible. Beyond that, well, Goblins make weapons, it's not unreasonable to surmise they make armour as well, and given that Goblin-made stuff is considered superior to wizard made stuff armour would likewise be superior.

Actualy, the Goblins may be the best place to go for muggles - they are never shown using magic that I can recall, yet they are competitive enough to have caused a whole number of goblin wars/rebellions that were a major problem for the Ministry. Logically they have non-magical gear that's able to fight wizards on even or mostly-even terms.

Perhaps the ultimate defence for muggles against wizards would be something like a sawed-off shotgun - easy to conceal and devastating at close range.
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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby Solauren » 2017-04-24 11:04am

An item that grants Occulmancy shields. Any wizard attemping Leigmancy will immediately assume the muggle is actually a wizard.

Weasley Spell-Deflection clothing, but ramped up in power. Deflect muliple spells before failure. Preferably multiple ones (i.e hat, tie, watch, shoes, underwear, etc)

Since this was inspired by James Bond vs Voldemort: Fake wands that are actually single shot guns. Firing Hollow Point tracer bullets so they look like spells, and do alot of damage on impact. Possibly a hand gun modified to look like a wand, but with a clip for multiple shots. (Hey, I'll leave the details to Q branch)

Portable Wards - Anti Apparation comes to mind immediately.

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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby Zixinus » 2017-04-24 12:52pm

A wand as a gun is rather clumsy. Wizards expect drawn wands pointed at them to be a danger. A pen-gun would be better or any item that could be aimed at an enemy wizard while looking harmless until it isn't. Cameras are a no-go, so are telephones and such. It is actually hard to think of an item because wizards already look out for disguised wands like in umbrellas and canes.

A rather nasty that occurs to me is gas. This is obviously where Bond has gone to "I don't give a shit, kill them all" level of things. But it is another backhand that Bond can utilize on as it is completely unexpected.
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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-24 03:21pm

Lord Revan wrote:I suspect that locations that have magical items have wards/charms to prevent unwanted visitors (at least most of the time), so getting there even if you know they exist might be an issue. Also it wouldn't surprice me at all if giving magical items to muggles was illegal in the wizarding world.

EDIT: I mean the HP wizarding world has lasted centuries without being common knowledge so it can't be that easy to access magical locations or items.


Probably depends on the country/time period. '20s Wizarding America, for example, is actually far more draconian than late 20th. Century Wizarding Britain, as shown in Fantastic Beasts.

But its clearly not illegal to have magical items in Muggle homes (given Harry keeps all his school things at the Durselys'), so you could just say "Oh, its not mine, such and such Wizarding relative just left it here", if nothing else.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:One thing that would be very useful would be the Shield Hats/Cloaks/etc developed by the Weaseley Twins at the start of Book Six - they considered them a prank, then the Ministry placed a huge order. They state it won't stop the major curses but minor stuff, stunners etc, are blocked, and apparently with no need for the user to cast anything. Pair that with dragonhide body armour and you've got a pretty solid protection against unexpected attack.

Another useful Weaseley product was Peruvian Instant Darkness Powder - which apparently works against even magical light sources - very useful for escape and evade.

Bezoars, as mentioned, are a good idea for protection against poison - though obviously only effective against something that works slowly or noticeably enough for you to realise you've been poisoned and use the thing.

Those items should be moderately easy for a muggle with knowledge of magic/access to Diagon Alley to procure. Other things like invisibility cloaks would be harder, but probably possible. Beyond that, well, Goblins make weapons, it's not unreasonable to surmise they make armour as well, and given that Goblin-made stuff is considered superior to wizard made stuff armour would likewise be superior.


These are all good ideas.

Actualy, the Goblins may be the best place to go for muggles - they are never shown using magic that I can recall, yet they are competitive enough to have caused a whole number of goblin wars/rebellions that were a major problem for the Ministry. Logically they have non-magical gear that's able to fight wizards on even or mostly-even terms.


Not so much that they don't have it, I think, as that its more engineering-based: enchanted weapons and fortifications (like the "Thieves' Downfall" waterfall in Gringotts, enchanted water which dispels and enchantments that pass under it).

Perhaps the ultimate defence for muggles against wizards would be something like a sawed-off shotgun - easy to conceal and devastating at close range.


That works against most things, really, though some magical creatures would be immune, or perhaps require specialized ammunition.
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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2017-04-24 03:57pm

Hmm...we know it is possible to put various charms on muggle devices, including ones that break physics over it's knees. So if our Muggle has access to at least a moderately competent wizard, the following can work. It's not something for a "defence kit" but a way to fight wizards.

Take some kind of big, powerful rifle. Add silencing charm. Add weight-reducing charm. Add that arresto-momento charm to reduce recoil. Maybe add dissillusionment charms to keep it inconspicuous. If possible, find a way to charm the magazine to be self-filling - we know it's possible to refill bottles of alcohol with a charm, this is a similar concept, so this may be possible.

Suddenly we have someone who can fire heavy-calibre rifle rounds (I'm thinking .50 BMG or even bigger into the 15-20mm range) with reduced weight, recoil and completely silently. Try stopping that one.

May be a useful thing to ponder for your fanfic TRR.
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“I’ve always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.” - Confederate General George Pickett, on being asked why his charge at Ghettysburg failed

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-24 09:54pm

I'll keep it in mind. Bond does encounter situations that call for more than the standard firepower from time to time. ;)

But yeah, definitely not something likely to be acquirable for the average civilian. Or legal, for that matter, particularly in Britain (which I understand has very tight laws on civilian gun ownership).
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby Zwinmar » 2017-04-25 09:36am

Stick a 30mm cannon in a reinforced bag of holding that has a grip and trigger attached for instant supressive fire.
There are many variations on that theme that would absolutely wreck a populace that isn't even up to WWI standards.

Actually, If you think about it, a taser would make a very effective weapon one on one with the chodes in the robes.

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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-27 02:19am

Zwinmar wrote:Stick a 30mm cannon in a reinforced bag of holding that has a grip and trigger attached for instant supressive fire.
There are many variations on that theme that would absolutely wreck a populace that isn't even up to WWI standards.

Yeah, but again, this is moving beyond civilian self-defence and into the realms of military-grade weaponry. And would also probably fall afoul of regulations on enchanting Muggle items, big time.

Actually, If you think about it, a taser would make a very effective weapon one on one with the chodes in the robes.


I'd like to hear more on this idea.

So, here's my short-list:

-Dragon Hide clothing (presuming it retains its magic-resistant properties after the creatures' death).

-Charmed hats/gloves/cloaks. Probably one of the shield-charmed ones (maybe a bubble-head charm for some situations) and an invisibility cloak if available. Maybe some enchanted glasses to protect the eyes, like what Hermione did to Harry's glasses when he had to play Quidditch in the rain?

-Portkey (maybe disguised as jewelry), which can be activated to take one to a safe location. Though this again is likely to be a very high-end item.

-Pack (with expansion charm), containing:

-Bezoar for countering poison.
-Dittany for healing minor wounds.
-Possibly some other minor healing potions.
-Magical communication mirror (if available-again, this is likely high-end). Or something more basic like the coins the DA used.

-Goblin-silver blade (again, likely a high-end item).

Anything big/obvious that I'm missing here?
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby Zixinus » 2017-04-27 07:42am

Some sort of potion to cleanse curses/hexes on you. Even if its just kids making fun of the non-wizard to annoy you, it can last.

A portkey might be overkill, again, an emergency exit potion perhaps? Mistform comes to mind.

I don't see how the goblin-silver blade helps against Death Eaters (unless Bond learns about the Horoxuses or however they are spelled, plus find something that can destroy those). It is really something useful against magical creatures and even then only if it has already took on some power that makes it more than just a shiny knife/dagger.
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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-27 08:04am

Zixinus wrote:Some sort of potion to cleanse curses/hexes on you. Even if its just kids making fun of the non-wizard to annoy you, it can last.

A portkey might be overkill, again, an emergency exit potion perhaps? Mistform comes to mind.

I don't see how the goblin-silver blade helps against Death Eaters (unless Bond learns about the Horoxuses or however they are spelled, plus find something that can destroy those). It is really something useful against magical creatures and even then only if it has already took on some power that makes it more than just a shiny knife/dagger.


Well, while this was an outgrowth of the Bond thread, its more about stuff that more ordinary Muggles, not just assassins, could put together to protect themselves from magic.

I admit the utility of a good knife might be limited. Well, no more than any good quality knife is useful as a weapon/tool, anyway. Though it at least gives an option for magical artifact-based weaponry that a Muggle could use without getting into military-grade firepower that would probably violate Wizarding law on tampering with Muggle artifacts.

However, regarding Bond, I should point out that he does get into hand-to-hand fairly often. :wink: Including, as I recall, at least two stabbings for Craig Bond (in Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace).

That, and a goblin silver blade impregnated with Basilisk venom is the only known way that a Muggle could take out a Horcrux, although granted that's a very niche use that most people would never have a need for.

Edit: It probably stands to reason that it could break other cursed objects, though. In fact, given the Goblin banks' vested interest in curse breaking, that seems rather plausible.
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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby Zwinmar » 2017-04-27 09:34am

Well, LEO taser guns have a range of 35 feet (10.6m). When exactly have we seen any of their spells go much beyond that? In pistol format they can be:
1. mass produced, 2. readily available, and 3. easily trained on.

Each of these plays into what the non-magicals have over the idiots in dresses...numbers.

As for destroying phylacteries...why can't thermite? It's relatively available and should burn hot enough.
Thermal and low light visioning gear is also available and not something they would expect. Along with all sorts of other tactical gear such as flash-bang grenades, or seizure inducing lasers.

Of course, Metallica would work for sonic gear :P

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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-27 09:51am

Well, thermite might, but we have no canon proof for it either way.

The only confirmed ways to destroy a horcrux are Avada Kedavra (though that was a very atypical circumstance), Fiendfyre, and Basilisk venom, so far as I recall.

Although I believe it was described as needing to be destroyed beyond magical repair, so anything that does damage magic can't fix ought to count (vague as that is).
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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2017-04-27 10:41am

The Romulan Republic wrote:Well, thermite might, but we have no canon proof for it either way.

The only confirmed ways to destroy a horcrux are Avada Kedavra (though that was a very atypical circumstance), Fiendfyre, and Basilisk venom, so far as I recall.

Although I believe it was described as needing to be destroyed beyond magical repair, so anything that does damage magic can't fix ought to count (vague as that is).


I think it was more "Beyond the horcrux's ability to self-repair." Anything sufficiently destructive/corrosive should, logically, destroy the object. The way they are described is that they contain a part of the soul, preventing it (or the rest of you) from crossing over when your body is killed. Simply destroying the container liberates the soul piece which passes over.

So I would argue that anything that is as corrosive or destructive as the two magical benchmarks (fiendfyre and basilisk venom) should work. Thermite would probably work, as would the delightful old fail-safe of strapping the item to a hundred kiloton nuke and detonating it.
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Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-27 10:45am

A nuke honestly seems rather excessive. Collateral damage aside, nothing magical observed in canon even comes close to that level of destructive firepower.

Yeah, thermite probably should work. We just don't have confirmation, obviously.
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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2017-04-27 10:48am

Yeah a nuke is excessive - but when dealing with an otherwise-immortal evil wizard with delusions of godhood, overkill is underrated. If it turns out that thermite doesnt kill a Horcrux, then moving up to a nuke may be necessary.
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Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-27 11:04am

I'd save the nukes for the Dementors, I think.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: reproducing un-killable creatures that feed on humans are an apocalypse-level threat. If magical means can't kill them, at some point, it may be necessary to heard the fuckers onto a nuclear testing ground and see what a few megatons will do to them.

Actually, I'll have to work something about Dementors into the fic, I think. I can't imagine the British government taking a more detailed knowledge of Dementors well. ;)
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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2017-04-27 11:13am

IIRC Dementors are, according to JK herself "ammortal," in the same category as Boggarts and Poltergeists - they can't die because they aren't technically alive.

But yeah, they breed, they sense, they consume happiness, they move and if the films are anything to go by, have a serious endothermic effect on the surroundings. Extinction-level-threat is right.

If your fic was set earlier than book 6, I'd suggest nuking Azkaban, but at this point the bloody things have left.
"I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams" - Hamlet

“I’ve always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.” - Confederate General George Pickett, on being asked why his charge at Ghettysburg failed

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-27 11:20am

Plus that would move things to open war between the Wizarding and Muggle worlds, probably.

I'm not saying that might not be necessary vs. Dementors at some point, if their breeding got out of control, but it would be a last resort.

But alive or not, they seem to have some physical presence. If they are constructed of something physical, it ought to be possible to destroy them by physical means.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Put together a Magical Self-Defence Kit for Muggles (RAR?).

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2017-04-27 11:23am

True. I have yet to encounter something that can survive being five feet from a megaton-range explosion.
"I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams" - Hamlet

“I’ve always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.” - Confederate General George Pickett, on being asked why his charge at Ghettysburg failed

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.


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