Logan

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EnterpriseSovereign
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Re: Logan

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2017-03-25 01:57pm

This does make me wonder whether Logan and Xavier's conditions were caused by the same bad food, since both men were suffering some deterioration in their respective powers.
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Re: Logan

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-03-25 05:01pm

Tribble wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:I'm reminded of Vision's line from Age of Ultron. What was it... "A thing isn't beautiful because it lasts"?

You're unbearably naive. - Ultron


The Romulan Republic wrote:
Everyone "loses" in the end, unless you happen to believe in an eternal afterlife. Winning is what you accomplish before you get defeated. And the X-Men accomplished a great deal.


Everyone "loses" on an individual level. Not everyone's purpose in life is pointless and failed.

When your goal was 'peaceful co-existence between man and mutant" and the end result is 'man medically genocides mutantkind' that's not a win, not even a fleeting one.


It's kind of sad that Magneto was right all along and one way or another humans will inevitably wipe out all mutants.

I wonder what would happen if Logan had survived, gone back in time again to a point shortly after DoFP, went to Xavier and said "Remember how I told you humans killed off mutants by building Sentinels? Ya, well, now its' via food." :P


I wouldn't argue that they lost in the end, presuming that all the mutants do in fact end up dead.

My point, rather, is that that ultimate defeat does not negate all their prior accomplishments, even if those accomplishments were temporary.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Logan

Postby Ace Pace » 2017-03-25 06:19pm

Came back from seeing it, with zero background or spoilers.
I'll actually say I was stunned and don't recall a better Marvel movie. Interesting and emotional but in a way that doesn't beat you over the head with the message like the original X-Men movies.

While the violence seemed over the top and could be toned down, I found Laura's acting to be quite appropriate and felt like I could see that something snapped inside her. Despite having few lines, I found her quite interesting. While the end is ambiguous and I have a hard time believing stuff is hopeful, I can't help but feel this sets up the X-men movies for a reboot.

And I kinda hope that Stewart and Jackman are happy to leave the franchise on a high note.
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Re: Logan

Postby Darth Yoshi » 2017-03-25 09:03pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:I wouldn't argue that they lost in the end, presuming that all the mutants do in fact end up dead.

My point, rather, is that that ultimate defeat does not negate all their prior accomplishments, even if those accomplishments were temporary.

I would argue that it does, because Xavier got to watch it happen. It's one thing if when he died mutants and regular humans were at peace, and then afterwards people dropped the ball or something. It wouldn't have been his failure, because his life would have left an unambiguously positive legacy. But as it is he has no legacy to pass on, because nothing he did survived long enough to be passed on. *shrugs*
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Re: Logan

Postby Bedlam » 2017-03-26 05:34am

Darth Yoshi wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:I wouldn't argue that they lost in the end, presuming that all the mutants do in fact end up dead.

My point, rather, is that that ultimate defeat does not negate all their prior accomplishments, even if those accomplishments were temporary.

I would argue that it does, because Xavier got to watch it happen. It's one thing if when he died mutants and regular humans were at peace, and then afterwards people dropped the ball or something. It wouldn't have been his failure, because his life would have left an unambiguously positive legacy. But as it is he has no legacy to pass on, because nothing he did survived long enough to be passed on. *shrugs*


I'd agree that Xavier's life is probably the most tragic thing if you look at the whole X-men arc. Mutants more or less only exist for just his life time he spends his whole life fighting for their acceptance and they're almost extinct by the time he dies many of them by his own unwitting hand.

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Re: Logan

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-03-26 07:21am

I can't help but think that mutants would have probably fared better if they were in the MCU. They wouldn't stand out so much as the only super humans, and their would be other super humans who are viewed heroically by the general public. And while that's no guarantee of safety (see the Inhumans, who basically are the MCU's version of mutants), their are people in positions of relative power who will fight for them. I can't imagine Captain America, for example, turning a blind eye to genocide. In the MCU, their'd be mutants working in SHIELD and/or the Avengers, and under their protection.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Logan

Postby General Zod » 2017-03-26 07:44am

If they were in the MCU we could have had a proper civil war storyline.
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Re: Logan

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-03-26 08:11am

I don't know. Having registration specifically target mutants while leaving other super humans alone would be ludicrous (which admittedly bigotry often is), and if you have all super humans targeted... well, that's basically the situation in canon.

It would also paint the pro-registration side in a more unambiguously villainous light if they were specifically targeting a minority group which is used as an analogy for the persecution of LGBT people and racial minorities.

I do think the motivations on both sides were fairly weak and underdeveloped in Civil War. I'm just not convinced adding mutants would have helped much.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Logan

Postby General Zod » 2017-03-26 08:44am

The Romulan Republic wrote:I don't know. Having registration specifically target mutants while leaving other super humans alone would be ludicrous (which admittedly bigotry often is), and if you have all super humans targeted... well, that's basically the situation in canon.

It would also paint the pro-registration side in a more unambiguously villainous light if they were specifically targeting a minority group which is used as an analogy for the persecution of LGBT people and racial minorities.

I do think the motivations on both sides were fairly weak and underdeveloped in Civil War. I'm just not convinced adding mutants would have helped much.


My problem with the way they handled Civil War in the MCU is that it came off as a domestic squabble rather than something that really had global impact. It was also a bigger event than you could really contain within a single movie, or even two. Honestly I'm not sure that they could have properly conveyed how big of an impact it had on film without making it a trilogy at least.
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Re: Logan

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-03-26 08:53am

Its a bit off-topic for this thread, but I think it would have helped a great deal to have more of a sense of lasting consequences.

One of my big gripes with the film is that it takes a very serious and potentially dark subject (friends and allies torn apart by a civil war) and... it carries very little weight, ultimately. Not many people in Hollywood, in my experience, can interweave comedy and drama in a manner where they compliment each other, rather than undermine each other (I can't help but wonder if Civil War would have fared better if Whedon had directed it, since this is his forte), and I think the attempt to be both serious and light-hearted somewhat flopped. And their was very little in the way of serious consequences that persisted beyond the film itself.

Cap's people end up in prison? Broken out at the end of the film. Rhodey is crippled? He's already recovering at the end of the film. The team is divided? They're already patching things up by the end, and we know they'll reunite in the next big team film. No major character, no Avenger, on either side actually dies. IT. FEELS. CHEAP.

Logan sounds like its at the opposite extreme, though.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Logan

Postby Solauren » 2017-03-26 11:59am

On topic:

Minor Spoilers
Spoiler
I cried when X-23 called Logan 'Daddy'.