Logan

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Re: Logan

Postby Khaat » 2017-03-09 11:31am

amigocabal wrote:and how do people on the street tell who has an X-gene?

Public relations: mutants don't have any. :lol:
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Re: Logan

Postby amigocabal » 2017-03-09 12:00pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:A bunch of heroes is different from a growing sub-population who don't wear costumes or work with the gov't and can include anyone and can do who knows what.

sso how do people wiothout access to mutant-detecting technologies tell if someone with extra abilities, who does no wear a costume nor work for the government, if that someone is a mutant or gained powers because of, say, an overdose of radioactive steroids?

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Re: Logan

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-03-09 12:49pm

amigocabal wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:A bunch of heroes is different from a growing sub-population who don't wear costumes or work with the gov't and can include anyone and can do who knows what.

sso how do people wiothout access to mutant-detecting technologies tell if someone with extra abilities, who does no wear a costume nor work for the government, if that someone is a mutant or gained powers because of, say, an overdose of radioactive steroids?


You are right, they cant and I dont think they do.

People like the Avengers and the FF don't face the same prejudice because they are well established word saving superhero groups with good public relations.
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Re: Logan

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-03-09 02:16pm

Maybe mutites and X-men can in turn view Avengers and FF as Uncle Toms. So Wolverine can say "Your parents taught you to salute the flag! Mine taught me a different lesson! Dying of shock after getting SNIKT BUBBED in the alley!" as he snikt-bubs some Avenger.
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Re: Logan

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-03-09 02:17pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Maybe mutites and X-men can in turn view Avengers and FF as Uncle Toms. So Wolverine can say "Your parents taught you to salute the flag! Mine taught me a different lesson! Dying of shock after getting SNIKT BUBBED in the alley!" as he snikt-bubs some Avenger.


Logan is an avenger though...
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Re: Logan

Postby Broomstick » 2017-03-15 02:07am

Late to the party, but I finally got to see the movie as a belated birthday present. The only thing better would have been seeing it with my husband but that was not possible.

I thought it was a well-written story and being allowed the ultra-violence was actually more true to the character of Wolverine than some of the more sanitized versions of the character. Yes, it was sad, but the kids getting to Canada in the end was a ray of hope.

(Can't help but see a parallel with people south of the US border making epic journeys north, and refugees/unwanted people now fleeing north to Canada).

And no, all the battles of the X-men were NOT futile even if they themselves are now gone. The hero's death does not negate the heroic deeds. The X-men always fought to save people even when those people didn't know of those battles or who the heroes were.
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Re: Logan

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-03-15 10:12pm

amigocabal wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:A bunch of heroes is different from a growing sub-population who don't wear costumes or work with the gov't and can include anyone and can do who knows what.

sso how do people wiothout access to mutant-detecting technologies tell if someone with extra abilities, who does no wear a costume nor work for the government, if that someone is a mutant or gained powers because of, say, an overdose of radioactive steroids?


Same way morons can't tell if someone who has the physical characteristics of their former President was born in the country or not, but nonetheless act like dicks to their fellow people.

And we already have anxieties towards the accepted, government-cooperating superheroes anyway.
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Re: Logan

Postby Gandalf » 2017-03-16 08:55pm

Broomstick wrote:And no, all the battles of the X-men were NOT futile even if they themselves are now gone. The hero's death does not negate the heroic deeds. The X-men always fought to save people even when those people didn't know of those battles or who the heroes were.


It's not that the X-Men themselves died. Mutantkind was wiped out, with the exception of those raised as slaves. It's everything the X-Men fought to prevent.

Evidently the best thing they did for mankind was stop the likes of Magneto, who would have been a bit more effective at fighting back against the genocide. Then it went down smoothly for all concerned.
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Re: Logan

Postby Tribble » 2017-03-16 09:21pm

And judging from this film I wouldn't be surprised if other corporations and governments were developing weaponised mutants. I mean, why not? No doubt they'll develop something similar to the Sentinels as well given enough time. Everyone who is not part of the Corporate / World government agenda is screwed no matter what.
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Re: Logan

Postby Gandalf » 2017-03-16 10:22pm

Tribble wrote:And judging from this film I wouldn't be surprised if other corporations and governments were developing weaponised mutants. I mean, why not? No doubt they'll develop something similar to the Sentinels as well given enough time. Everyone who is not part of the Corporate / World government agenda is screwed no matter what.


Considering that the first film opened in Auschwitz, that's quite the potent message; resist the power all you want, but in time it will crush you.
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Re: Logan

Postby Tribble » 2017-03-17 01:25am

Gandalf wrote:
Tribble wrote:And judging from this film I wouldn't be surprised if other corporations and governments were developing weaponised mutants. I mean, why not? No doubt they'll develop something similar to the Sentinels as well given enough time. Everyone who is not part of the Corporate / World government agenda is screwed no matter what.


Considering that the first film opened in Auschwitz, that's quite the potent message; resist the power all you want, but in time it will crush you.


Spoilers:

Don't get me wrong, I really like Logan. However, IMO it clashes so badly with the message in DoFP that I find it hard to enjoy it as much as I think I should, if you know what I mean. Perhaps part of it comes from Logan taking place not long after DoFP - given what we learn for all we know Xavier killed all of the Xmen right after the credits rolled in DoFP.

I know I know that's kind of the point, and they really couldn't have gone much further into the future and have Xavier in it (and I always love seeing Patrick Stewart in action)... but still, it felt almost too close time-wise, and can even come across as kind of funny in a twisted sort of way:

Logan: Jean, you're here.
Jean: Of course I'm here Logan, why wouldn't I be?
(Then cut straight to the bit in the trailer where Logan is drinking at the grave)
Xavier: Logan, what did you do?

Again I like the movie a lot but IMO it might of been interesting had the can been kicked down the road a lot more, and it's an old and ailing Jean Grey Logan has to take care of. Could almost have the same movie and the same dialog, as both her and Xavier meet Logan and roughly the same time and share the same experiences (minus the romance). Hell the scene where Xavier gets killed by the clone and Logan nearly breaks down saying "It wasn't me!" could be just as poignant with Jean; in the end despite everything he did "Wolverine" still ends up killing her.

Not saying that would have been any better, just perhaps less... jarring, since it would take place far enough in the future that you can assume many of the xmen actually lived a nice full life for a change.
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Re: Logan

Postby Thanas » 2017-03-22 10:32pm

Honestly, continuity wise this movie is a bit of a mess, in fact some parts do not make sense. For example the events of X-men 1 are wiped out as per Days of Future Past and Apocalypse, yet they are still referenced there. So they cannot be part of the same timeline.

This leads me to think this being a seperate continuity of X-men 3 / The wolverine. Maybe one where Days of Future past has a different ending, so no sentinels but still enough hate that X-men 1 could happen.

There certainly does not seem to be a way where you can have DoFP, Apocalypse and X-men 1 happen in the same universe.
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Re: Logan

Postby Tsyroc » 2017-03-22 10:55pm

Thanas wrote:Honestly, continuity wise this movie is a bit of a mess, in fact some parts do not make sense. For example the events of X-men 1 are wiped out as per Days of Future Past and Apocalypse, yet they are still referenced there. So they cannot be part of the same timeline.

This leads me to think this being a seperate continuity of X-men 3 / The wolverine. Maybe one where Days of Future past has a different ending, so no sentinels but still enough hate that X-men 1 could happen.

There certainly does not seem to be a way where you can have DoFP, Apocalypse and X-men 1 happen in the same universe.



It's possible that Logan is still sketchy on the true timeline. He comments on the Statue of Liberty when Professor X is actually referencing the hotel that Laura and her "mother" are at.

It is kind of sad that DoFP being thwarted would result in such a sucky but much less dystopian future. So the choices are maximum shitty or a future that leaves such a shitty taste in your mouth that everything taste like peanuts and corn, but we get self driving semi=trucks out of the bargain.

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Re: Logan

Postby General Zod » 2017-03-22 11:02pm

I saw it last night and think it was thoroughly enjoyable. That said, it was kind of glaring when you could see them using all sorts of movie-tropes and conventions as setups from a mile away. "Oh look, they meet a nice family of normies!" Yeah . . . they're going to die in the next act. "Oh look, an adamantium bullet that Wolvie was thinking of using to take his life with!" It's going to be used somehow in the final scene.

Otherwise I think it's one of the best X-Men movies in years and I wouldn't mind if they ended the series with it.
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Re: Logan

Postby Tribble » 2017-03-22 11:06pm

Tsyroc wrote:
Thanas wrote:Honestly, continuity wise this movie is a bit of a mess, in fact some parts do not make sense. For example the events of X-men 1 are wiped out as per Days of Future Past and Apocalypse, yet they are still referenced there. So they cannot be part of the same timeline.

This leads me to think this being a seperate continuity of X-men 3 / The wolverine. Maybe one where Days of Future past has a different ending, so no sentinels but still enough hate that X-men 1 could happen.

There certainly does not seem to be a way where you can have DoFP, Apocalypse and X-men 1 happen in the same universe.



It's possible that Logan is still sketchy on the true timeline. He comments on the Statue of Liberty when Professor X is actually referencing the hotel that Laura and her "mother" are at.

It is kind of sad that DoFP being thwarted would result in such a sucky but much less dystopian future. So the choices are maximum shitty or a future that leaves such a shitty taste in your mouth that everything taste like peanuts and corn, but we get self driving semi=trucks out of the bargain.


IMO Logan was just remembering the original timeline where Xmen 1 happened; he doesn't remember anything that happened in the new timeline between being chucked into the water by Magneto and the DoFP ending. The original timeline is still his timeline as far as his memories are concerned. Apparently he has no memories of the Logan that existed between those points in the new timeline... I guess that version's personality died or something?
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Re: Logan

Postby Formless » 2017-03-22 11:11pm

Does it really matter if this film does or doesn't fit the rest of the continuity? I prefer a good film that has no continuity with the rest of its franchise to a bad film that must be purged yet keeps getting referenced later on. This film succeeds on its own terms: as long as you know who the X-Men are and what they stand for, and especially who the leads are, its excellent. I have not seen any of the other Wolverine films, nor do I care to, and I stopped watching the X-Men films around the third one in the franchise. Yet I feel like I got my money's worth.

This is a film where Wolverine looks at an X-Men comic book and openly states "half of it never happened and the other half never happened that way. Its bullshit!" And the only rebuttal that Xavier has is "But its real to her." In other words, continuity isn't the focus of this film and the characters openly say so without breaking character. The exchange shows the relationship this film has with the rest of the movies: the details are not what is important. The message and characters are.
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Re: Logan

Postby Tribble » 2017-03-22 11:23pm

Formless wrote:Does it really matter if this film does or doesn't fit the rest of the continuity? I prefer a good film that has no continuity with the rest of its franchise to a bad film that must be purged yet keeps getting referenced later on. This film succeeds on its own terms: as long as you know who the X-Men are and what they stand for, and especially who the leads are, its excellent. I have not seen any of the other Wolverine films, nor do I care to, and I stopped watching the X-Men films around the third one in the franchise. Yet I feel like I got my money's worth.

This is a film where Wolverine looks at an X-Men comic book and openly states "half of it never happened and the other half never happened that way. Its bullshit!" And the only rebuttal that Xavier has is "But its real to her." In other words, continuity isn't the focus of this film and the characters openly say so without breaking character. The exchange shows the relationship this film has with the rest of the movies: the details are not what is important. The message and characters are.


I agree the movie's great, but for a lot of people who watched DoFP in particular as I've said earlier its rather depressing. The main theme of DoFP was about hope, and you know, the Xmen actually being able to have something good happen to them in the end... we all saw where that led to in Logan (btw those kids are almost certainly dead once they cross the border; did they seriously believe that the country which created the Weapon X program in the first place wouldn't be in on the mutant weapon scheme? Or that it wouldn't at least be willing to help the US government / corporation out if requested?)

And as for continuity, the director is the one trying to tie it into the rest of the franchise via Word of God, so it's fair game as he could have just as easily said "alternate timeline" or something. Hugh Jackman apparently believes that the film is in a standalone universe.
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Re: Logan

Postby General Zod » 2017-03-23 12:24am

tribble wrote:(btw those kids are almost certainly dead once they cross the border; did they seriously believe that the country which created the Weapon X program in the first place wouldn't be in on the mutant weapon scheme? Or that it wouldn't at least be willing to help the US government / corporation out if requested?)


Which is probably why it ended where it did, even though they were on the radio with someone in Canada granting them asylum.
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Re: Logan

Postby Formless » 2017-03-23 12:29am

But that is actually the second, indeed larger, purpose of the in-universe comic. Hope is a theme here too, just in a different form. Its not "we will change the world and everything will be alright", because that's obviously not what happened in the movie. But the kids take the idea of the X-Men as inspiration to figure out how they are going to survive on their own. Just like people in real life do with the same comic book franchise, and others. Even Laura, who does seem to expect some help and understanding from Logan on account that he is her father, is relying on her own ingenuity and that of her peers to ultimately get to Canada. Its a promise that hope doesn't die when a hero or team of heroes dies, as long as there are people aspiring to be like them.

And as for the idea that Canada isn't a safe place to be, I'm going to side with the movie's intentions on account of two things: first, when they said that Canada is a legal safe haven for mutants, it seems the villains believe it too. They say right before the final battle that they cannot let the kids get past the border, implying that the Canadian authorities aren't to be messed with by some two-bit mercenaries. This is reinforced by the fact that they did their illegal experiments in Mexico, implying that even in places that are ambivalent to mutants they could never get away with this. They had to rely on government corruption in order to conduct the experiment. Second, the film makes it clear that yes, the bad guys are linked to the Weapon X program. But they also clearly state early in the film that the company is an U.S. based company, and the mercenaries are apparently former U.S. military. Not Canadian military. The only person who is stated to be a direct link to the Weapon X program is the chief scientist. Meaning, it isn't sponsored by the Canadian government, and probably isn't sponsored by any government at all. The villains are merely banking on the results being so compelling that when they go to sell the idea to the government (and probably the US government is who they have in mind), the government will buy it anyway and sweep all the incriminating evidence under the rug.

Oh, and there is the radio conversation Zod mentioned. But larger structural elements of the film are easier to remember and more compelling than brief scenes like that.
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Re: Logan

Postby Tribble » 2017-03-23 12:30am

General Zod wrote:
tribble wrote:(btw those kids are almost certainly dead once they cross the border; did they seriously believe that the country which created the Weapon X program in the first place wouldn't be in on the mutant weapon scheme? Or that it wouldn't at least be willing to help the US government / corporation out if requested?)


Which is probably why it ended where it did, even though they were on the radio with someone in Canada granting them asylum.




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Re: Logan

Postby General Zod » 2017-03-23 12:34am

Considering the way that Mutants were wiped out in Logan via GMO crops rather than Sentinels, I'm less inclined to think that's the case.
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Re: Logan

Postby Tribble » 2017-03-23 12:46am

General Zod wrote:Considering the way that Mutants were wiped out in Logan via GMO crops rather than Sentinels, I'm less inclined to think that's the case.


If anything IMO that just reinforces the idea that they would end up being captured and/or killed asap. Remember that as far as the public is concerned mutants just stopped being born and gradually disappeared. There's no way anyone would risk the public finding out that mutant children were literally being grown and trained as weapons, and that when they were deemed a liability they were to be exterminated. Not to mention potentially blowing the cover on the whole mutant genocide thing.

Transgien has to be a pretty powerful corporation if it was able to implement its plans worldwide and it almost certainly had government approval and support. And Canada had a history with projects like weapon X and was probably involved in Transgiens operations or at least knew about them... ya the odds of Canada giving those mutants asylum are practically zero.
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Re: Logan

Postby Formless » 2017-03-23 01:04am

Or, you are just reaching and not drawing upon the evidence the film provides to the viewer. If it were as simple as you make it sound, they would have just told the US government that there were dangerous mutants up in Nevada trying to flee into Canada and not rely on private mercenaries for the entire film. And don't tell me that it would be traced back to them: it could be an anonymous tip, or they could have used the government connections you ascribe to them to just cover up any wrongdoing. Again, the use of GMO crops shows that violence is not considered a politically acceptable way of dealing with Mutants in the world of this film. They can have political sway without also having a blank check to do anything they want everywhere in the world. There are limits, and it may even be that they have enemies in the Canadian government who wanted the children specifically because they were evidence of wrongdoing that could be used against Transgen. You just don't know because you won't give the film the benefit of the doubt.
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Re: Logan

Postby Tribble » 2017-03-23 01:56am

Formless wrote:Or, you are just reaching and not drawing upon the evidence the film provides to the viewer.


IMO it is more likely that the Canadian government would want to see the mutant kids captured /eliminated than suddenly granting them asylum, particularly given Canada's history with mutants (note that despite the events DoFP they still went ahead with the Weapon X program, as seen in X-Men Apocalypse). Canada's generally never been nice to mutants unless they were in publically known teams like Alpha Flight.

Formless wrote:If it were as simple as you make it sound, they would have just told the US government that there were dangerous mutants up in Nevada trying to flee into Canada and not rely on private mercenaries for the entire film. And don't tell me that it would be traced back to them: it could be an anonymous tip, or they could have used the government connections you ascribe to them to just cover up any wrongdoing.


Or the US government could have just as easily told them "It's your mess, now clean it up or else".

Formless wrote:Again, the use of GMO crops shows that violence is not considered a politically acceptable way of dealing with Mutants in the world of this film.


Or perhaps to be more specific, public violence may not have been considered politically acceptable. Killing them off covertly was clearly fine given their plan to commit genocide via GMO crops, I wouldn't be surprised if some mutants who weren't known to the public were discreetly killed off over time.

Formless wrote:They can have political sway without also having a blank check to do anything they want everywhere in the world.


Well that cheque is pretty damn big given that their plan was to commit worldwide mutant genocide, and it was apparently successful. I highly doubt that this was done without widespread government knowledge and approval - that project would have been too big to have gone unnoticed.

Formless wrote:There are limits, and it may even be that they have enemies in the Canadian government who wanted the children specifically because they were evidence of wrongdoing that could be used against Transgen.


Again, not likely given their overall history with mutants. If there was some kind of faction of the Canadian government involved (we don't actually know who the kids were talking to and they could be anyone) it's more likely that the faction was not operating with government approval.

Remember its kids speculating that they will be safe and granted asylum once they cross the border, nothing more.

You just don't know because you won't give the film the benefit of the doubt.


What part of "I really liked the film" do you have problems understanding? I'm just pointing out that it's more likely that the kids would eventually get recaptured / killed than successfully living happily ever after. And that based on what we know (including other films) it would likely be in Canada's own best interest to take them out before they became public knowledge, particularly if Canada was complicit in the mutant genocide and/or had some level of knowledge as to what Transgein was up to.
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Re: Logan

Postby Tribble » 2017-03-23 02:14am

Hell, even if Canada had absolutely nothing to do with the genocide or Trangien it'd still likely be in their best interests to capture / kill off the mutants than give them asylum and let them go their own merry way. If word ever got out that even with the apparent disappearance of mutants it was still technically possible to create one and weaponise him/her... that would be bad. Someone else would be bound to try (if there aren't multiple groups doing it already, Transgien may have just been the first one to screw things up and get caught).
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - the official Troll motto as stated by Adam Savage


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