Logan

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amigocabal
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Re: Logan

Postby amigocabal » 2017-03-06 11:37am

Lord Revan wrote:
Vendetta wrote:I don't think there's any wondering, they've been trying to make people forget the X-Men and love the Inhumans for years (people do not love the Inhumans), they've shitcanned the Fantastic Four, and so on.

To be honest the X-men always fit rather poorly to the greater Marvel universe, it's kind of hard to have mutant oppression when you got 10000 superpowered heroes that don't get oppressed, I mean worst someone like Spiderman got is a bad press in a way that's obvious the writer has something against Spiderman personally and the Avengers are generally seen as heroes in-universe IIRC.

X-men work best in a universe where mutants are essentially the only superpowered beings in existance.

Marvel comics have had mutants since 1955, if not earlier (Yellow Claw #2)

The idea of humanity oppressing mutants was speculated in 1959 (Tales of Suspense #6)

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Re: Logan

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-03-06 04:21pm

I don't get what happened to the non-X-Men mutants... I get that the X-Men got finished off by Professor X's worst seizure... probably after losing quite a few bad battles, and perhaps the party-kill seizure happened DURING one particularly bad battle too (say the fall of the mansion/institute). But what about the adult mutants who weren't duking it out with the X-Men? I don't think the corn syrup shit could kill the active mutants, that shit just suppressed muties... or did some other telepathic mutant or #MagnetoWasRight members organize some "oh shit this is fucked up let's hide" thing, perhaps connected to what happened in Canadia? Hell, what's up with that Canadian connection anyway?

My theory is that... Bishop or Cable or whatever goes to the past and Deadpoolhas to save the mutant universe. One of the kids in Logan is actually Bishop or Cable or whoever!

OR:

Maybe Dead-Wolverine just heals slower, so it's like the Death of Superman, he returns with a mullet and a sword. So he heals while rotting underground and all the bugs and worms that try to decompose his guts find themselves trapped within said guts when the guts heal and then digest the decomposers!

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Re: Logan

Postby FaxModem1 » 2017-03-06 07:45pm

My guess? Due to this timeline of peace and prosperity from better human-mutant relations, most of the world's mutants were at Xavier's mansion when his seizure killed them, and those that weren't died due to actual corn syrup poisoning.

I think that was what they mentioned, that current mutants died due to it, and future mutants just didn't develop powers.
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Re: Logan

Postby Civil War Man » 2017-03-07 11:42am

Lord Revan wrote:To be honest the X-men always fit rather poorly to the greater Marvel universe, it's kind of hard to have mutant oppression when you got 10000 superpowered heroes that don't get oppressed, I mean worst someone like Spiderman got is a bad press in a way that's obvious the writer has something against Spiderman personally and the Avengers are generally seen as heroes in-universe IIRC.

X-men work best in a universe where mutants are essentially the only superpowered beings in existance.


Depends on the nature of the superpower. I could see less interest in oppressing, say, tech-based superheroes like Iron Man or Ant Man, or ones who are just like humans but slightly better like Captain America, Black Widow, or Hawkeye. The difference is that they are still members of the human species, just with their abilities augmented by technology, training, or in Captain America's case, magical steroids. Take those away, and they are regular humans. Give those things to other humans, and they could theoretically become superheroes themselves.

Meanwhile, the X-men are different on a genetic level, so it raises the specter of competitive exclusion. The public views them as a different species competing for the same resources, but their superpowers give them a major competitive advantage, so they are viewed as an existential threat in a way that tech-based heroes would not. They can also fit in the same universe as superheroes who are similarly different, but are also targeted by the government or society, like the Hulk.

The only part that feels out of place is when you have other superheroes who are also different on a genetic level, but are not similarly targeted, like the Fantastic Four.

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Re: Logan

Postby Khaat » 2017-03-07 12:24pm

In game-mechanics (Marvel Super Heroes RPG!), you had "mutants" (X-Men), "altered humans" (Spiderman, Fantastic Four, Hulk, Captain America), "high-tech wonders" (Iron Man, Hawkeye, Black Widow), "robots" (Vision) and "aliens" (Thor).

But if the confirmed, present, recurring existence of aliens doesn't crash the Marvel universe standard human psyche, I really don't see why mutants would, other than in a "your kids are nothing like you" sort of way.
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Re: Logan

Postby amigocabal » 2017-03-07 02:18pm

Khaat wrote:In game-mechanics (Marvel Super Heroes RPG!), you had "mutants" (X-Men), "altered humans" (Spiderman, Fantastic Four, Hulk, Captain America), "high-tech wonders" (Iron Man, Hawkeye, Black Widow), "robots" (Vision) and "aliens" (Thor).

But if the confirmed, present, recurring existence of aliens doesn't crash the Marvel universe standard human psyche, I really don't see why mutants would, other than in a "your kids are nothing like you" sort of way.

maybe the reaso is that the aliens are not living on Earth in large numbers.

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Re: Logan

Postby Khaat » 2017-03-07 02:45pm

amigocabal wrote:
Khaat wrote:But if the confirmed, present, recurring existence of aliens doesn't crash the Marvel universe standard human psyche, I really don't see why mutants would, other than in a "your kids are nothing like you" sort of way.

maybe the reaso is that the aliens are not living on Earth in large numbers.

So are mutants now "in large numbers"?

The X-men were a metaphor for discrimination since their inception, and usually saved the world behind the scenes. The (admittedly out of date) exposure they had with the "mainstream" heroes usually resulted in distrusting the mutants (because they were an unknown - mostly because they were secretive), and light "hero vs hero" before getting on with the Bad Guy du Jour. They were made the outsiders (didn't really help with Wolverine being an anti-hero.)
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Re: Logan

Postby Civil War Man » 2017-03-07 02:45pm

amigocabal wrote:
Khaat wrote:In game-mechanics (Marvel Super Heroes RPG!), you had "mutants" (X-Men), "altered humans" (Spiderman, Fantastic Four, Hulk, Captain America), "high-tech wonders" (Iron Man, Hawkeye, Black Widow), "robots" (Vision) and "aliens" (Thor).

But if the confirmed, present, recurring existence of aliens doesn't crash the Marvel universe standard human psyche, I really don't see why mutants would, other than in a "your kids are nothing like you" sort of way.

maybe the reaso is that the aliens are not living on Earth in large numbers.


And one of the few aliens living on Earth on a long-term basis is a member of his home world's royal family, so starting shit with him has the potential to cause a diplomatic incident with the Norse pantheon.

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Re: Logan

Postby Khaat » 2017-03-07 02:51pm

I'm not saying "start shit with the illegal alien", I'm saying "we thought we humans were the tippy-top of the mountain. Turns out we're a speck of dust in the wider universe (we won't mention multiverse!) of life, and pretty much on the 'unexceptional and insignificant' end of things. [ego crash]"
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Re: Logan

Postby Civil War Man » 2017-03-07 03:14pm

Khaat wrote:I'm not saying "start shit with the illegal alien", I'm saying "we thought we humans were the tippy-top of the mountain. Turns out we're a speck of dust in the wider universe (we won't mention multiverse!) of life, and pretty much on the 'unexceptional and insignificant' end of things. [ego crash]"


The human brain can be quite adept at avoiding that kind of introspection. There are still people who believe that the Earth is flat and the sun orbits it.

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Re: Logan

Postby Khaat » 2017-03-07 03:43pm

Civil War Man wrote:The human brain can be quite adept at avoiding that kind of introspection. There are still people who believe that the Earth is flat and the sun orbits it.

That's a perspective that only limits those few people and doesn't affect anyone outside of them (or their circle). We don't hate these people, if anything we pity them for denying evidence to the contrary.

No, I get that people can and do some really short-sighted and messed up stuff; that's played out in X-title comics with mutants as the target of hysteria, violence, oppression, or fear all the time. But mutants are our kids (well, their kids. Whatever.) Being afraid of the future should bite them in the ass more than it does, and being abusive toward it (mutants) really should be explored better than the usual, eventual, "if we'd only known" way. I think that message has been lost, or at least, handled poorly.
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Re: Logan

Postby Tsyroc » 2017-03-07 07:26pm

Lord Revan wrote:To be honest the X-men always fit rather poorly to the greater Marvel universe, it's kind of hard to have mutant oppression when you got 10000 superpowered heroes that don't get oppressed, I mean worst someone like Spiderman got is a bad press in a way that's obvious the writer has something against Spiderman personally and the Avengers are generally seen as heroes in-universe IIRC.

X-men work best in a universe where mutants are essentially the only superpowered beings in existance.


I agree. It was always better when all of the Marvel books crossed over infrequently. The X-Men really were off doing their own thing, and that's even with Beast (a former X-man who was also non-human looking), Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch being rather prominent Avengers. When they were active as Avengers they never had to deal with anti-mutant sentiment to the extent that the X-Men did.

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Re: Logan

Postby Tsyroc » 2017-03-07 07:36pm

Civil War Man wrote:The only part that feels out of place is when you have other superheroes who are also different on a genetic level, but are not similarly targeted, like the Fantastic Four.


I think the FF are still on the chopping block but they are way down the list, unless someone gets really concerned about Franklin and Valeria Richards (Reed and Sue's children, who are mutants). If they go after the Richard's kids they better do it when they are very young though.

The FF are publicly popular and are more super powered celebrities or adventurers than a lot of the vigilante types and the Avengers. I think that in most timelines the people getting rid of mutants usually get around to getting rid of any enhanced individuals eventually, even if those people don't try to interfere in the mutant oppression/extermination.

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Re: Logan

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-03-07 11:37pm

Lord Revan wrote:
Vendetta wrote:I don't think there's any wondering, they've been trying to make people forget the X-Men and love the Inhumans for years (people do not love the Inhumans), they've shitcanned the Fantastic Four, and so on.

To be honest the X-men always fit rather poorly to the greater Marvel universe, it's kind of hard to have mutant oppression when you got 10000 superpowered heroes that don't get oppressed, I mean worst someone like Spiderman got is a bad press in a way that's obvious the writer has something against Spiderman personally and the Avengers are generally seen as heroes in-universe IIRC.

X-men work best in a universe where mutants are essentially the only superpowered beings in existance.


Or if mutants were the first super humans.

Or, for that matter, some people might see a mutated human different than someone who's powers were acquired through training/technology, like Tony Stark, or even someone who's an alien from another world.

Who said bigotry had to be logical?
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Re: Logan

Postby LadyTevar » 2017-03-08 04:22am

Saw the movie. To Quote Howard Taylor (Schlock Mercenary) "I didn't have fun, but I wasn't supposed to." It was epic, in the Norse sense, where the Hero doesn't get to see the results of his endeavors, only a very hard-earned rest from the fighting.
The "Shane" quote did me in, I was still wiping tears when I left the theater. Immediate run to nearest bar where it took 3 glasses of hard liquor to get my head on straight. "... there are no more guns in the valley...." *sniffles* The Wolverine toy was the last straw too.

Jackman and Stewart were right to end their involvement with this movie. Anything more would be anti-climatic.

Things to add to the discussion: The "incident in Westchester" happened roughly a year prior, according to the news on the radio reporting on the people collapsing at the Casino. Before Logan turned it off, you hear the newslady state that several people in Weschester were killed, including the Xmen.

At the farmhouse, Xavier finally remembers what happened, and forgives Logan for keeping the truth from him. Of course, it wasn't who he thought it was....
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Re: Logan

Postby Civil War Man » 2017-03-08 07:22am

Khaat wrote:
Civil War Man wrote:The human brain can be quite adept at avoiding that kind of introspection. There are still people who believe that the Earth is flat and the sun orbits it.

That's a perspective that only limits those few people and doesn't affect anyone outside of them (or their circle). We don't hate these people, if anything we pity them for denying evidence to the contrary.

No, I get that people can and do some really short-sighted and messed up stuff; that's played out in X-title comics with mutants as the target of hysteria, violence, oppression, or fear all the time. But mutants are our kids (well, their kids. Whatever.) Being afraid of the future should bite them in the ass more than it does, and being abusive toward it (mutants) really should be explored better than the usual, eventual, "if we'd only known" way. I think that message has been lost, or at least, handled poorly.


I think the whole "but they are our kids" part is why Bryan Singer has typically treated the X-men movies he directed as less of a metaphor about racism or McCarthyism (though we do see bits of that), and more as a metaphor for homophobia and the struggle for gay rights.

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Re: Logan

Postby Khaat » 2017-03-08 10:50am

Civil War Man wrote:I think the whole "but they are our kids" part is why Bryan Singer has typically treated the X-men movies he directed as less of a metaphor about racism or McCarthyism (though we do see bits of that), and more as a metaphor for homophobia and the struggle for gay rights.

Apart from the intro/chorus always telling us that mutants are our future, yep. X-Men 2 beat it until you couldn't tell it was originally a horse, though:
Madeline Drake: Have you tried... not being a mutant?"

Nightcrawler: Why not hide all the time?
Mystique: Because we shouldn't have to.

Madeline Drake: This is all my fault.
Pyro: Actually they discovered that it's the male who carries the mutant gene and passes it on, so it's his fault.

Professor X: William, you wanted me to cure your son. But mutation is not a disease.
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Re: Logan

Postby amigocabal » 2017-03-08 11:25am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:
Vendetta wrote:I don't think there's any wondering, they've been trying to make people forget the X-Men and love the Inhumans for years (people do not love the Inhumans), they've shitcanned the Fantastic Four, and so on.

To be honest the X-men always fit rather poorly to the greater Marvel universe, it's kind of hard to have mutant oppression when you got 10000 superpowered heroes that don't get oppressed, I mean worst someone like Spiderman got is a bad press in a way that's obvious the writer has something against Spiderman personally and the Avengers are generally seen as heroes in-universe IIRC.

X-men work best in a universe where mutants are essentially the only superpowered beings in existance.


Or if mutants were the first super humans.

Or, for that matter, some people might see a mutated human different than someone who's powers were acquired through training/technology, like Tony Stark, or even someone who's an alien from another world.

Who said bigotry had to be logical?

If I remember correctly, Tony Stark was (in the beginning) crippled, and needed the armor to keep his heart beating.

A distrinction could be made between heroes who rely on unique technology and those whose abilities are innate.

I have always wondered how people in the Marvel Universe could distinguish mutants from those who have super pwoers because of what they had for breakfast this morning, in the absence of iPhone sized mutant detectors.

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Re: Logan

Postby Khaat » 2017-03-08 11:37am

amigocabal wrote:I have always wondered how people in the Marvel Universe could distinguish mutants from those who have super pwoers because of what they had for breakfast this morning, in the absence of iPhone sized mutant detectors.

Presence or absence of the "X-gene" (in X-titles, anyway). And mutants have a writer-fiat "kick me" sign on their back.
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Re: Logan

Postby amigocabal » 2017-03-09 01:05am

Khaat wrote:
amigocabal wrote:I have always wondered how people in the Marvel Universe could distinguish mutants from those who have super pwoers because of what they had for breakfast this morning, in the absence of iPhone sized mutant detectors.

Presence or absence of the "X-gene" (in X-titles, anyway). And mutants have a writer-fiat "kick me" sign on their back.

and how do people on the street tell who has an X-gene?

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Re: Logan

Postby Darth Yan » 2017-03-09 04:37am

FaxModem1 wrote:Just got back from seeing it. I enjoyed it. Hugh Jackman and Patrick Stewart give the X-men a nice swansong.

Spoiler
Every mutant, aside from the teen labrats, are dead. Beast, Cyclops, Jean Grey, Rogue, Iceman, etc. All dead. Charles Xavier, is dead. Logan, is dead.

All of their fights, all of their struggles, utterly pointless, as they're all dead, and mutantkind is over. In the end, the Colonel Strykers and the Senator Kellys of the world won.

Patrick Stewart's last scene, and Xavier's funeral, made me sad.


The ending scene made me sad as well, though the final image was rather iconic.


I wouldn't go that far. The mutants are alive so there MAY be a chance. Hell they could easily do a "mutant messiah" arc come to think of it. That was a story that had potential (And a few great stories. Second coming was easily one of the best Marvel stories of the last decade.) and with better writing they could have Hope Summers be a better character (she was fine until AvX)
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