Melee weapons for monster hunting?

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Re: Melee weapons for monster hunting?

Postby madd0ct0r » 2017-02-26 06:18am

An ice pick is where I would go for urban monsterss. Pierce and use the handle to twist the wound open. Useful in climbing too. Kukri then hatchet for wilderness.

Although with that boar set above a second spear tip to use as spare/dagger would make sense in the ensemble.
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Re: Melee weapons for monster hunting?

Postby Zixinus » 2017-02-26 09:54am

More concentrated force, needs to push less of the target aside to go deep.


The point of a dagger is pretty sharp, at least as any spike. Cutting an object requires less energy than forcing it trough, especially in tissue.

The more flexible something is, the less optimized it is for any task, stabbing included.


Daggers are not flexible. They are actually quite rigid.

An icepick motion is about the maximum amount of force one can deliver with a one-handed weapon.


You can do that with a dagger too and you also need accuracy, not just sheer force. You want to damage organs on the first go, not just push stuff in.
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Re: Melee weapons for monster hunting?

Postby LadyTevar » 2017-02-26 04:02pm

You would be honestly surprised how little force it can take to stab someone. Think how easy it is to get a paper cut.
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Re: Melee weapons for monster hunting?

Postby LaCroix » 2017-02-26 07:30pm

LadyTevar wrote:You would be honestly surprised how little force it can take to stab someone. Think how easy it is to get a paper cut.


We tested with rapiers (about 40 inch blades) on pig carcasses. The first resistance you felt was when the hilt touched skin.
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Re: Melee weapons for monster hunting?

Postby LadyTevar » 2017-02-26 11:27pm

LaCroix wrote:
LadyTevar wrote:You would be honestly surprised how little force it can take to stab someone. Think how easy it is to get a paper cut.


We tested with rapiers (about 40 inch blades) on pig carcasses. The first resistance you felt was when the hilt touched skin.

The SCA Fencers use a contraption with a piece of leather on a frame to teach proper calibration. Remove the safety tip from the epee/schlager, and there's a new hole in the leather at very slight thrust.

Pressure = Force/Area. Any pointed blade puts all the force at a very small area, so it doesn't take a lot of pressure to sink in, even with armor.
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Re: Melee weapons for monster hunting?

Postby Q99 » 2017-02-28 07:48pm

Zixinus wrote:Daggers are not flexible. They are actually quite rigid.


Flexible in the 'designed for multiple things' sense. A dagger is wider, it can slash and stab, and it's wider blade means more resistance when stabbing for depth. I am thinking of monsters with tough scales and such. If you get the tip of the dagger through a tough target, but it's armor is strong enough that simply stabbing won't widen that to an inch wide slit, then you're merely going to poke it and not get depth.

A weapon optimized for cutting will be poor at stabbing. A weapon optimized at stabbing will be poor at cutting. A weapon that can do both may be good at both, but neither quite as well as something just focused on one or the other.

You can do that with a dagger too and you also need accuracy, not just sheer force. You want to damage organs on the first go, not just push stuff in.


Yes, you can do it with a dagger, but not as optimized as a purely stabbing instrument, and there's no difference in accuracy between the two. Nor is stabbing just 'pushing stuff in.'

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Re: Melee weapons for monster hunting?

Postby Zixinus » 2017-03-01 10:40am

Flexible in the 'designed for multiple things' sense. A dagger is wider, it can slash and stab, and it's wider blade means more resistance when stabbing for depth.


And how much do you gain by the dagger cutting its way trough as opposed to being forced trough? Tissue is not wood or stone.

Also, keep in mind that there are different kinds of daggers. There are daggers that are very thin and long meant specifically to go deep, almost spike-like, like stilettos .

I am thinking of monsters with tough scales and such. If you get the tip of the dagger through a tough target, but it's armor is strong enough that simply stabbing won't widen that to an inch wide slit, then you're merely going to poke it and not get depth.


If you can't get a dagger trough more than just the tip, you aren't going to get that much farther with the spike either. Spikes widen too.

But in that situation you can't just stand there and hammer at the spike until you hit organs, you either need to get it trough on the first stab in some weak spot or you need something two-handed or a change in tactics/weapons altogether. If you can't get trough the skin, the difference between a spike or dagger is moot.


Yes, you can do it with a dagger, but not as optimized as a purely stabbing instrument, and there's no difference in accuracy between the two. Nor is stabbing just 'pushing stuff in.'


A dagger IS a stabbing instrument and the fact that there is no difference is to the dagger's advantage because a dagger can offer you more than a spike.

As for the "pushing stuff in" thing, I meant "making holes in general".

I can sort of envision using spike if cutting doesn't work and perhaps when you need to rapidly stab different targets, like multiple vampires in Buffy that come to mind.
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Re: Melee weapons for monster hunting?

Postby Lord Revan » 2017-03-01 10:45am

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the difference between a dagger and a knife essentially that daggers are meant mostly for stabbing with a possibility for cuts/slashes while knives are the reverse of that?
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Re: Melee weapons for monster hunting?

Postby Zixinus » 2017-03-01 12:40pm

Lord Revan wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the difference between a dagger and a knife essentially that daggers are meant mostly for stabbing with a possibility for cuts/slashes while knives are the reverse of that?


A dagger is really defined by its point's design, that is arrow-shaped (for the same reason) and often (but not necessarily) symmetrical and the blade-shape following suit to being double-edged (but not always). The reason for that design, a long, thin and sharp point, is indeed for stabbing. I do not think you could make a spike that has a better point for penetration, except perhaps if you need reinforced points meant to get trough something like plate armor (where, again, you can't cut so a spike DOES make sense).
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Re: Melee weapons for monster hunting?

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-03-01 01:33pm

Daggers can still cut/slash though... but their straightness means their cuts/slashes aren't as good as other cuttier slashier knives. Right?
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Re: Melee weapons for monster hunting?

Postby Zixinus » 2017-03-01 02:25pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Daggers can still cut/slash though... but their straightness means their cuts/slashes aren't as good as other cuttier slashier knives. Right?


If you mean that a dagger is not as good cutter as a dedicated chopping/cutting knife, sure (I think so anyway, I'm not a knife maker). There are degrees and levels of design in just how much difference there is and how much of a compromise. Different knives may optimize themselves kinds of cutting (slashing, chopping and pull-cuts). Weight distribution of a dagger is different than a combat knife. A good combat knife is still pretty good at stabbing, although that may depend on what you mean by "combat knife" as that can also mean thicker knives with shorter points meant for utility as well as combat.

Oh, and there is such a thing as a not-completely-straight dagger or curved knives (like thisone) that are arguably also very good for stabbing. The movement of an arm and ice-pick stab is already curved. A knife can be unsuitable for stabbing but still be double-edge too.

Overall though, if you need to make the most effective attack on something you can't fight one-on-one, a long, thing dagger to the organs is your best bet, I think. If that's not enough or can't work, you need something bigger than a knife.
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Re: Melee weapons for monster hunting?

Postby LaCroix » 2017-03-05 03:13am

Well, I am a knife (and sword) maker... :D

A dagger is usually defined by being double egded (not all but most), and a rather pointy tip. Usually in a diamond cross section. If you will, you can desribe it as a flat spike with cutting edges. There are some daggers with a single edge (a dirk, for example), but these are usually with a very acute point, and some times with a ricasso (the very tip is double edged, but the rest of the blade not).

In general they tend to follow two shapes. Long and slim or wide at the base and triangular/leaf shaped. The later is the more common thing, though.

The long and slim is used against armored combatants. You slip it into an opening and then try wiggling it around once it is in, in order to find something vital.The wide dagger will do the same, but much more easy, for the shape makes it work like a guillotine, it will cause a lot of damage. Spike daggers like panzerstecher or stiletto were specialized things. You drive it through gaps in metal armor, and due to theshape, it would not bend or break as likely as a normal blade if the enemy was to be uncooperative and wiggle. For every other armor type, a knife will penetrate better and do more damage.

I have a pet theory that the spike daggers were used in combat because you wanted to disable an enemy armored combatant (knight) without outright killing him, as often as possible for ransom reasons. Only using a spike would make that more likely.

Stilettos were also used as murder weapons. Due to the blunt blade, people hoped that the wound might not be recognized for it did close up, and bleed little. Still, you had to hit an organ to do damage, for the wound channel was quite small. In combat, you'd be at disadvantage against a real knife.

There are very few dedicated slashing knives out there. Pretty much because a knife will per definition only cause relatively shallow cut, as slashing is a function of blade lenght and curvature. (Technically, curvature in motion. A knife that is gradually narrowing towards the tip is also curved, if you look only at the cutting edge, and when swung, even a straight triangular shaped blade also acts as if it was slightly curved due to the way it contacts.) The only one that comes to mind is a japanese Tanto in Katana shape. The knife in the link above is a different Tanto shape, which is stabbier, as Katana tips are inferior at stabbing due to not being pointy enough.

There are chopping knives like the Kukry, that are non-stabby due to shape, but in general, even the slashing knives are used to stab the opponent, with their slashing ability only being an added feature.
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