Lord of the Rings/Game of Thrones crossover scenario.

FAN: Discuss various fictional worlds that don't qualify for SF.

Moderator: Steve

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12024
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Lord of the Rings/Game of Thrones crossover scenario.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-27 10:18am

Don't know if we've had a proper Lord of the Rings/"Game of Thrones" (I'm going with TV version here as usual, because I haven't read the books) crossover here before, so here goes:

For reasons unknown, three portals/wormholes open up between the two worlds. Each gate is an invisible hemispherical rift in space-time five miles across, curving up from the ground/sea level to a point five miles in the air.

The first connects the lands north of the Wall in Westeros with the Kingdom of Angmar in Middle Earth.

The second connects the heart of the Dothraki plains with the plains of Rhun, just South of the Sea of Rhun and to the north of Mordor.

The third connects the sea, at a mid-point between King's Landing and Bravos, with the sea fifty miles South of the mouth of the Anduin, and the Southern coast of the Kingdom of Gondor.

The date in Westeros is five years before the start of Robert's Rebellion. And in Middle Earth, Gandalf is on his way to the Shire to recruit one Bilbo Baggins as a burglar.

Edit: Some more information: We will assume that all prophecies in both settings are null and void due to this warping of the time line. We will also assume that all characters remain in character, rather than united world vs. world scenario, and that all metaphysics of both settings aside from the prophecies and any issues with the existence of portals remain in effect.

So, can Sauron conquer this new world? Can the Others sweep Middle Earth? Or will some other power or alliance arise to oppose them effectively?
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12024
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Lord of the Rings/Game of Thrones crossover scenario.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-27 10:53am

Oh, also, book version for LotR.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Tribble
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2048
Joined: 2008-11-18 11:28am
Location: stardestroyer.net

Re: Lord of the Rings/Game of Thrones crossover scenario.

Postby Tribble » 2017-01-27 12:30pm

How will the heavy hitters over in Valinor react given this just messed up their plans big time? While they usually try to take the minimalist approach (such as sending Gandalf and co as aid) they have been shown to directly step in if the situation in Middle Earth gets bad enough.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - the official Troll motto as stated by Adam Savage

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12024
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Lord of the Rings/Game of Thrones crossover scenario.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-27 02:44pm

My impression was that post-Fall of Numenor, they pretty much adopted a policy against direct involvement in Middle Earth, only acting through more subtle agents (namely, the wizards).
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11231
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Lord of the Rings/Game of Thrones crossover scenario.

Postby Elheru Aran » 2017-01-27 04:19pm

Part of the problem here is that we don't have a *ton* of information on what exactly was going on in Middle-Earth at this point.

The only things we know for sure is that Smaug has taken the Lonely Mountain for maybe a century or two-- possibly/probably longer since it was several human generations ago-- the Orcs/Goblins have long controlled the realm under the Misty Mountains, and the Necromancer/Sauron rules in Mirkwood. The Witch-King of Angmar has long been cast down, and Mordor is similarly in ruins, guarded by the Gondorians. Even Aragorn hasn't been born yet. Oh, and the Dwarrowdelf of Moria has also been conquered by Goblins, IIRC.

Speculatively:

Westeros or Braavos could attempt trading with Middle-Earth, I guess, but unless there's something specific that either side wants from each other, there's not going to be much found there. One thought, I suppose, is that given Middle-Earth's more Earth-normal seasons, they could act as a supplier of food and provisions during the winters of Westeros.

As for the North connecting to Angmar: If the White Walkers try to start shit, probably the Elves will try to shut it down. Would be interesting to see if Elven magic or Elven-wrought weapons work on them. But even now the Elves are departing Middle-Earth en masse, so it's possible there may simply not be any around apart from Lothlorien, Greenwood and Rivendell. Which appear to be more or less directly south of Angmar, so there's that.The Wildlings might enjoy relocating to a land with a more temperate climate, though.

The Dothraki Plains connecting to Rhun isn't going to change much, either, unless the Dothraki decide they want to conquer Middle-Earth. In that case, if I recall the Map correctly... meh... *googles*

Ahem. Rhun is directly to the East of Mirkwood. So that's a sizeable obstacle for the Dothraki; the Silvan Elves are protective of their forests, and forests are historically hostile to cavalry. The mountains surrounding Mordor are south of Rhun, so between the two they would be channeled directly into the Dead Marshes, northern Gondor, and Rohan. If they turn south they would hit Ithilien and Minas Tirith itself, which would be a tough nut for the Dothraki to crack. They could conquer Rohan probably-- they seem to have the numbers and the Rohirrim simply aren't that massive of a military force. That said, the Rohirrim are probably slightly better equipped; they do have armour, even in book LOTR, while the Dothraki seem to be mostly a horde of lightly equipped riders using shock, terror and scorched-earth tactics to their advantage rather than actual pitched warfare.

Now if the Dothraki head west through Rohan they'll find themselves approaching the Gap of Rohan and Orthanc. We don't know how long it took Saruman to build his army of Uruk-hai and Wild Men, but it's possible he might have a force to oppose them. If they were movie Uruk-Hai... they were specifically equipped to fight a cavalry force. Book Uruks, don't recall, but still formidable.

As for the sea 'gate'... meh... I don't see much happening there, but if the Corsairs of Umbar are a thing at this point in Middle-Earth history, they'll probably be happy for the juicy Braavosi ships to pounce on, and the Faceless Men find a new place to set up a temple.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12024
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Lord of the Rings/Game of Thrones crossover scenario.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-27 06:06pm

Actually, I believe Aragorn is a five year old (his people are very long-lived), and the Gondorian watch on Mordor has long been effectively broken, though Sauron will not openly declare his return until the events of The Hobbit, when he's driven out of Mirkwood. The Appendixes in The Return of the King, and especially the time line in Appendix B, are great for giving the cliff notes on this or many other eras.

The Corsairs are active, yes, but I don't think Saruman has an army of Uruk-Hai yet.

As to the Dothraki- while I agree that Rohan is likely technologically (and tactically) superior to the best of my knowledge, the numbers are definitely in their favour. Theoden says in Return of the King that Rohan could send 10,000 men to aid Gondor if not for its losses and the need to guard its own lands (which reduces it to the canon 6,000). Kal Drogo had 40,000 men, which is a huge army by Middle Earth standards, probably comparable to or greater than the full War of the Ring era might of Gondor.

Edit: Of course, Rohan can always do what it always does when invaded by a mightier foe- retreat to its mountain fortresses at Dunharrow and Helm's Deep. If they're well-provisioned, they might be able to simply wait out the Dothraki.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12024
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Lord of the Rings/Game of Thrones crossover scenario.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-27 07:11pm

Okay, very brief run-down on the strategic situation:

The Dothraki are between Mordor to the South, Mordor's Easterling allies (who are either right on top of them or to the East), the Men of the Long Lake and the Dwarves of the Iron Hills as well as Smaug the dragon to the (distant) North, and the elves of Mirkwood and Lothlorien, as well as the Necromancer (aka Sauron) to the West. They either end up at war with Sauron (good for Middle Earth) or subservient to him (bad for Middle Earth).

They'll have a hell of a time reaching Rohan or Gondor, as it means going through some very rough and/or marshy country I believe, as well as crossing the Anduin. But if they do... they probably can't take Gondor due to the defensive fortifications in the North and East, but they can probably weaken it enough to make it a much softer target for Sauron. Rohan they can likely overrun, at least if they take it by surprise, though they probably can't force the Rohirim out of their mountain fortresses. Gondor may aid Rohan if it can, but its ability to do so without compromising its defences will be very limited (we're likely talking hundreds of men, not thousands).

The sea portal could benefit Gondor greatly, allowing it to become a trade centre and port mid-way between Braavos and Westeros. This could also help against the Corsairs, as while my knowledge of Westrosi/Braavosi fleet sizes is pretty much what I've gleaned from fan fics, I get the impression that their fleets are larger than the Corsairs' (50 big ships and a bunch of smaller ones, as I recall) in the War of the Ring. Also, the Corsairs are slavers, are they not? Something which I was under the impression that Braavos and Westeros have rather distinct views on. Plus, of course, they'll want to defend their trade.

Not having to worry about Umbar would free up a lot of Gondor's manpower from defending the South to be used to man the defences against the main assaults from Mordor when the War of the Ring starts.

The biggest threat is in the North, I think. Their is very little West of the Misty Mountains that would be more than a speed bump to the Walkers, I suspect. Probably just Rivendell and maybe the Grey Havens. Oh, and Tom Bombadil, within his little pocket of woodland.

If Sauron sees the Walkers as a rival, he might use Saruman, and the orcs of Moria and Gundabad, to keep them from pushing East of the Mountains. If, on the other hand, he coopts them, well, that sucks for everyone.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Tribble
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2048
Joined: 2008-11-18 11:28am
Location: stardestroyer.net

Re: Lord of the Rings/Game of Thrones crossover scenario.

Postby Tribble » 2017-01-27 10:49pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:My impression was that post-Fall of Numenor, they pretty much adopted a policy against direct involvement in Middle Earth, only acting through more subtle agents (namely, the wizards).


Their policy always seems to have been "hands off unless the situation is so dire that they have no choice but to do something". Sauron never quite reached the point of needing direct intervention, even at his height during the Second Age. Although they officially laid down their guardianship, that was more because the Numenoreans attacked them and they didn't know how to respond (since humans are children of Eru). IMO had Sauron won I don't think the Valar would have sat still and let him dominate Middle-Earth forever.

That being said IMO "fate" was a big part of their decision to send the wizards (particularly Gandalf) to Middle-Earth instead of taking direct action. They sensed that in the end the wizards would be sufficient to deal with Sauron in one way or another, just as Gandalf sensed that sending Bilbo with the Dwarves was the right move, and later sensed that Bilbo was "meant" to find the Ring and Frodo was "meant" to carry it, that Gollum would be important etc. All part of Eru's plan, so to speak, even if they didn't know the exact details.

Well, that plan has just been entirely thrown out the window. I imagine they'd be able to sense such a massive change occurring, and if not they'd find out about it soon enough in one way or another (either through the Elves, the Eagles which are known to serve Manwe, the Valar Ulmo and his Maiar as he mostly stay in the water, the Wizards themselves etc). I'm not so sure they'd be content to sit this one out, and at the very least they'd want to investigate further and/or consult Eru about it to receive instructions.

And speaking of Eru... well he's definitely willing to step in when he believes things have gone far enough, and he's literally the LOTR universe's Creator / God. Something tells me that a sudden crossover with the Game of Thrones universe was not part of his plans, so why would he even allow to portals to remain in the first place?

On a related note, Morgoth's spirit was literally shoved out of Arda, and the portals would also be passing out of Arda and into another universe... barring Eru simply deciding to close the portals, does this give Morgoth a potential way back in to Middle-Earth?
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - the official Troll motto as stated by Adam Savage

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12024
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Lord of the Rings/Game of Thrones crossover scenario.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-28 07:00am

Tribble wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:My impression was that post-Fall of Numenor, they pretty much adopted a policy against direct involvement in Middle Earth, only acting through more subtle agents (namely, the wizards).


Their policy always seems to have been "hands off unless the situation is so dire that they have no choice but to do something". Sauron never quite reached the point of needing direct intervention, even at his height during the Second Age. Although they officially laid down their guardianship, that was more because the Numenoreans attacked them and they didn't know how to respond (since humans are children of Eru). IMO had Sauron won I don't think the Valar would have sat still and let him dominate Middle-Earth forever.


Eh, Gandalf seemed to think that "Sauron gets the Ring" meant perpetual rule by the Dark Lord over Middle Earth, and being a servant of the Valar, he'd probably have as good an idea as anyone of their will, short of the Valar themselves or Eru.

That being said IMO "fate" was a big part of their decision to send the wizards (particularly Gandalf) to Middle-Earth instead of taking direct action. They sensed that in the end the wizards would be sufficient to deal with Sauron in one way or another, just as Gandalf sensed that sending Bilbo with the Dwarves was the right move, and later sensed that Bilbo was "meant" to find the Ring and Frodo was "meant" to carry it, that Gollum would be important etc. All part of Eru's plan, so to speak, even if they didn't know the exact details.


It does complicate things when their are actual gods in play. I think that to some extent, for scenarios like this, we have to assume that the gods take a fairly hands-off role, and/or that their plans are unknowable, just to keep things sane.

Well, that plan has just been entirely thrown out the window. I imagine they'd be able to sense such a massive change occurring, and if not they'd find out about it soon enough in one way or another (either through the Elves, the Eagles which are known to serve Manwe, the Valar Ulmo and his Maiar as he mostly stay in the water, the Wizards themselves etc). I'm not so sure they'd be content to sit this one out, and at the very least they'd want to investigate further and/or consult Eru about it to receive instructions.

And speaking of Eru... well he's definitely willing to step in when he believes things have gone far enough, and he's literally the LOTR universe's Creator / God. Something tells me that a sudden crossover with the Game of Thrones universe was not part of his plans, so why would he even allow to portals to remain in the first place?


Maybe Eru has no power over things from outside his universe? Or maybe Eru simply finds a way to incorporate the portals into his plan.

On a related note, Morgoth's spirit was literally shoved out of Arda, and the portals would also be passing out of Arda and into another universe... barring Eru simply deciding to close the portals, does this give Morgoth a potential way back in to Middle-Earth?


Unless Morgoth's spirit ended up in the Game of Thrones universe, probably not. My impression was that he was cast into some void dimension or something.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.


Return to “Fantasy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests