Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

FAN: Discuss various fictional worlds that don't qualify for SF.

Moderator: Steve

Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28654
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby Simon_Jester » 2017-01-04 11:26pm

Swindle1984 wrote:Somehow, I'm pretty certain the relative handful of magic users in the wizarding world would get their asses handed to them when they try to conquer the muggle world and discover they're fighting an army of millions with automatic weapons, artillery, armored vehicles, air support, satellite surveillance, chemical and biological weapons (how quickly can you cast a spell to protect yourself from VX nerve agent that kills in three seconds flat and is colorless, odorless, and tasteless? Particularly when 'instantly lethal and almost undetectable poison gas' isn't something you knew about in advance?), and friggin' nukes.

I'm not how useful turning a bird into a fancy goblet would be when a horde of screaming Chinamen charge at you, with a horde of tanks right behind them.

I'm guessing that at least some wizards are cognizant of this fact, and that's why the wizarding world is off in its own little dimension where muggles can't reach them. But given the superiority complex of the majority of wizards, and the near-complete ignorance of what muggles are capable of that their isolation has caused, I'm guessing the majority will be very surprised when they finally reveal their existence to the world at large and set forth to conquer... only to discover that a JDAM doesn't give a shit if you were nominated Potion Mixer of the Year.

Though clearly with all the mind control magic, date rape potions that are openly sold to school children, and shape-shifting potions, the wizards would have the advantage in infiltration and creating their own Manchurian Candidates.
Yeah. Basically, Harry Potter wizards can do mind control on an unsuspecting Muggle by pointing a stick at them and saying a word. They can alter their appearance with ease and prep time.

They really, really do not need to worry about open, violent confrontation.

In such confrontation they'd lose- but it's unrealistic to imagine an army of Potterverse wizards going up against an organized army of Muggles who have tanks, artillery support, bombers ready and nerve gas (because of course you're just drooling to imagine the full range of modern weapons exploding the funny-dressed people with magic sticks).

For that matter, it's not clear that anyone involved in the wizard community actually wants to change the status quo and openly confront Muggles.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11784
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-04 11:34pm

Well, Grindelwald did, and the Death Eaters were at least interested in launching random attacks on Muggles to cause trouble for the Ministry, or even just for sport. Though in one of the alternate timelines in "Cursed Child", where Voldemort won, the Wizards are still living in secret, and bribing the Muggle government to cover up the attacks by Voldemort's followers. So perhaps Voldemort didn't give enough of a damn about the Muggles to want to rule them. Or maybe he was actually smart enough to know how badly that could end for him- for all his arrogance, he did spend much of his childhood in the Muggle world, and he probably has some idea of just how many Muggles their are and what missiles and bombs can do (since he would have been growing up in England during the Blitz).

Grindlewald and his followers were the only ones I know of who wanted to actually take over the Muggle world. The whole point of his plot in Fantastic Beasts is to cause enough trouble to irreparably breach the Statute of Secrecy, triggering a war between Wizards and Muggles.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10381
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby Lord Revan » 2017-01-04 11:35pm

Aren't the Death Eaters only seeking any kind of change to the status quo and isn't they goals more on the lines of "racial purity" and "rule muggles from the shadows" then direct conflict with muggles.

I can't remember any mention (granted my knowledge is rather limited) of intentions for direct open conflict with muggles by the wizarding world.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n

User avatar
Tribble
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2014
Joined: 2008-11-18 11:28am
Location: stardestroyer.net

Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby Tribble » 2017-01-04 11:51pm

Lord Revan wrote:Aren't the Death Eaters only seeking any kind of change to the status quo and isn't they goals more on the lines of "racial purity" and "rule muggles from the shadows" then direct conflict with muggles.

I can't remember any mention (granted my knowledge is rather limited) of intentions for direct open conflict with muggles by the wizarding world.


Right, though given what we've seen so far in Fantastic Beasts and the hints we saw throughout the books, that may have more to do with all the carnage caused by Grindelwald / WW2. Perhaps they figured there's no point in ruling the world if its been reduced to rubble, and aren't willing to take that sort of risk anymore.

I believe someone mentioned in another thread that Voldemort was more of an Osama Bin Laden type, whereas Grindelwald paralleled Hitler (which also makes sense in-universe given the timeline).
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - the official Troll motto as stated by Adam Savage

Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28654
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby Simon_Jester » 2017-01-05 03:06am

The Romulan Republic wrote:Grindlewald and his followers were the only ones I know of who wanted to actually take over the Muggle world. The whole point of his plot in Fantastic Beasts is to cause enough trouble to irreparably breach the Statute of Secrecy, triggering a war between Wizards and Muggles.
True.

Then again, Grindlewald was widely opposed, and I suspect this is one of the reasons- because the Statute of Secrecy is widely popular among wizards.

If there were open war between wizards and Muggles in the Potterverse, then or now, the wizards' tactics would almost have to revolve around using mind control on Muggle leaders. Which would be difficult if not impossible to counter, in any event.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11784
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-05 03:41am

I suspect Grindelwald was planning to rely on the Spoiler
Obscurus for a lot of the heavy fighting. It had a hell of a lot of destructive power (as in demolishing skyscrapers), and seemed to be at least immune to small arms fire, as well as very, very fast.

Basically, think of it as a living tornado you can aim and use repeatedly.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.