Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Swindle1984 wrote:Somehow, I'm pretty certain the relative handful of magic users in the wizarding world would get their asses handed to them when they try to conquer the muggle world and discover they're fighting an army of millions with automatic weapons, artillery, armored vehicles, air support, satellite surveillance, chemical and biological weapons (how quickly can you cast a spell to protect yourself from VX nerve agent that kills in three seconds flat and is colorless, odorless, and tasteless? Particularly when 'instantly lethal and almost undetectable poison gas' isn't something you knew about in advance?), and friggin' nukes.

I'm not how useful turning a bird into a fancy goblet would be when a horde of screaming Chinamen charge at you, with a horde of tanks right behind them.

I'm guessing that at least some wizards are cognizant of this fact, and that's why the wizarding world is off in its own little dimension where muggles can't reach them. But given the superiority complex of the majority of wizards, and the near-complete ignorance of what muggles are capable of that their isolation has caused, I'm guessing the majority will be very surprised when they finally reveal their existence to the world at large and set forth to conquer... only to discover that a JDAM doesn't give a shit if you were nominated Potion Mixer of the Year.

Though clearly with all the mind control magic, date rape potions that are openly sold to school children, and shape-shifting potions, the wizards would have the advantage in infiltration and creating their own Manchurian Candidates.
Yeah. Basically, Harry Potter wizards can do mind control on an unsuspecting Muggle by pointing a stick at them and saying a word. They can alter their appearance with ease and prep time.

They really, really do not need to worry about open, violent confrontation.

In such confrontation they'd lose- but it's unrealistic to imagine an army of Potterverse wizards going up against an organized army of Muggles who have tanks, artillery support, bombers ready and nerve gas (because of course you're just drooling to imagine the full range of modern weapons exploding the funny-dressed people with magic sticks).

For that matter, it's not clear that anyone involved in the wizard community actually wants to change the status quo and openly confront Muggles.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Well, Grindelwald did, and the Death Eaters were at least interested in launching random attacks on Muggles to cause trouble for the Ministry, or even just for sport. Though in one of the alternate timelines in "Cursed Child", where Voldemort won, the Wizards are still living in secret, and bribing the Muggle government to cover up the attacks by Voldemort's followers. So perhaps Voldemort didn't give enough of a damn about the Muggles to want to rule them. Or maybe he was actually smart enough to know how badly that could end for him- for all his arrogance, he did spend much of his childhood in the Muggle world, and he probably has some idea of just how many Muggles their are and what missiles and bombs can do (since he would have been growing up in England during the Blitz).

Grindlewald and his followers were the only ones I know of who wanted to actually take over the Muggle world. The whole point of his plot in Fantastic Beasts is to cause enough trouble to irreparably breach the Statute of Secrecy, triggering a war between Wizards and Muggles.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Post by Lord Revan »

Aren't the Death Eaters only seeking any kind of change to the status quo and isn't they goals more on the lines of "racial purity" and "rule muggles from the shadows" then direct conflict with muggles.

I can't remember any mention (granted my knowledge is rather limited) of intentions for direct open conflict with muggles by the wizarding world.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Post by Tribble »

Lord Revan wrote:Aren't the Death Eaters only seeking any kind of change to the status quo and isn't they goals more on the lines of "racial purity" and "rule muggles from the shadows" then direct conflict with muggles.

I can't remember any mention (granted my knowledge is rather limited) of intentions for direct open conflict with muggles by the wizarding world.
Right, though given what we've seen so far in Fantastic Beasts and the hints we saw throughout the books, that may have more to do with all the carnage caused by Grindelwald / WW2. Perhaps they figured there's no point in ruling the world if its been reduced to rubble, and aren't willing to take that sort of risk anymore.

I believe someone mentioned in another thread that Voldemort was more of an Osama Bin Laden type, whereas Grindelwald paralleled Hitler (which also makes sense in-universe given the timeline).
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

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The Romulan Republic wrote:Grindlewald and his followers were the only ones I know of who wanted to actually take over the Muggle world. The whole point of his plot in Fantastic Beasts is to cause enough trouble to irreparably breach the Statute of Secrecy, triggering a war between Wizards and Muggles.
True.

Then again, Grindlewald was widely opposed, and I suspect this is one of the reasons- because the Statute of Secrecy is widely popular among wizards.

If there were open war between wizards and Muggles in the Potterverse, then or now, the wizards' tactics would almost have to revolve around using mind control on Muggle leaders. Which would be difficult if not impossible to counter, in any event.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I suspect Grindelwald was planning to rely on the Spoiler
Obscurus for a lot of the heavy fighting. It had a hell of a lot of destructive power (as in demolishing skyscrapers), and seemed to be at least immune to small arms fire, as well as very, very fast.

Basically, think of it as a living tornado you can aim and use repeatedly.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Response to TRR's message (which contains Fantastic Beasts spoilers) below:
Spoiler
Thing is, an Obscurus is at best only marginally controllable. You can't win a war with a weapon you can't aim reliably.

Grindelwald's plan was to provoke a war. I don't think he would expect any single magical creature, however powerful, to win that war. That's why he believed in uniting the magical world in order to prosecute the war.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Granted, but if he'd managed to get his hands on more Spoiler
Obscuruses (and in a war between wizards and muggle, their'd almost certainly be more of them being created), he could have done a lot of damage with them if he made sure they went off in the right places. And Credence did seem to have some control over it at the end- Grindelwald was obviously hoping (probably futile though it was) to win his loyalty.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

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All it takes is a few Wizards to decide they've had enough and sell their services and knowledge to the highest bidder. I'm sure there's more than a few EU countries HP wizards don't have in their pocket. If not, I've heard nothing about U.S. or Canadian wizards.

Native Americans were the first group of people to embrace the coming of magic in Shadowrun. Well, the Celts and some other in Europe as well, but the Indians used the Great Ghost Dance to hold off the U.C.A.S (US and Canada went Voltron) using mostly Guerilla warfare to attack supply lines and, you know, detonate volcanos. Anyways, not shortly after that, governments around the world did everything they could to get their own magic to fight fire with fire.

If at any point their spells/enchantments fail because "dumb wizards" then just knowing wizards exist means you've got organizations looking and testing for prospective wizards. Even though we don't see them, I don't see why the Americas or Africa don't have their own wizards.

I get this is a kid's series, but realistically considering their utter complacency and incompetence, there would have to some wizards to Just Say No and/or special children snatched up and their powers realized to be more than just coincidence. Imagine Orphan Riddle gets nabbed by Mi-5. Although, the problem here is that wizards seem to have Britain on lockdown. Honestly, I think any kind of dedicated push into the wizard world would have to come from the Americas or Africa. Wizards seem to reach from the UK all the way to Russia, possibly leaving out China, Korea, etc. I saw like, one Asian chick in the entire series, and she was British.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Post by Tribble »

In response to TRR and Simon_Jester
Spoiler
Grindelwald may also be willing to use Non-Magic people when it serves its purposes, it's not confirmed yet but I always assumed he had something to do with the rise of Nazism and WW2. He might have sided with / aided Hitler just to get all the non-magic people to start killing each other. It'd be a hell of a distraction while he goes about doing his own takeover.
TheFeniX wrote:All it takes is a few Wizards to decide they've had enough and sell their services and knowledge to the highest bidder. I'm sure there's more than a few EU countries HP wizards don't have in their pocket. If not, I've heard nothing about U.S. or Canadian wizards.

Native Americans were the first group of people to embrace the coming of magic in Shadowrun. Well, the Celts and some other in Europe as well, but the Indians used the Great Ghost Dance to hold off the U.C.A.S (US and Canada went Voltron) using mostly Guerilla warfare to attack supply lines and, you know, detonate volcanos. Anyways, not shortly after that, governments around the world did everything they could to get their own magic to fight fire with fire.

If at any point their spells/enchantments fail because "dumb wizards" then just knowing wizards exist means you've got organizations looking and testing for prospective wizards. Even though we don't see them, I don't see why the Americas or Africa don't have their own wizards.

I get this is a kid's series, but realistically considering their utter complacency and incompetence, there would have to some wizards to Just Say No and/or special children snatched up and their powers realized to be more than just coincidence. Imagine Orphan Riddle gets nabbed by Mi-5. Although, the problem here is that wizards seem to have Britain on lockdown. Honestly, I think any kind of dedicated push into the wizard world would have to come from the Americas or Africa. Wizards seem to reach from the UK all the way to Russia, possibly leaving out China, Korea, etc. I saw like, one Asian chick in the entire series, and she was British.
America was shown to have its own Ministry and Wizards in Fantastic Beasts and while it's not confirmed I think its safe to assume that every major power would have some kind of magical organisation.

The Statue of Secrecy seems to be some kind of international agreement given that both the American and European Ministries follow it.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

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I think it's a fairly world-wide thing except in special, isolated areas on the world where the "modern" world has not intruded much and people still accept that magic exists (which the modern world just chalks up to superstition).

I think that the reason the Statue of Secrecy exists in the first place is because wizards realised way back that they can't live as wizards in a muggle world. That the world has become hostile to them. Maybe the Muggles became crazy, maybe the wizards racked up too much bullshit on them trough the centuries that they had enough, probably both.

Plus the danger of muggles grabbing powerful magic they don't understand and abusing it and/or creating serious problems. With enough examples of this, the thought that magic has to be kept from muggles for everyone's safety appears.

Thus, you get a situation where secrecy makes perfect sense to wizards. The nasty muggles don't get their greedy hands on dangerous magical forces and magic is reserved for educated persons who can handle it responsibly (or at least, should know how to). And of course, the best part is that it shifts the power balance completely into the wizards' favor as well as protecting them from any public anger. How could the public be angry at people that don't exist?
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Tribble wrote:In response to TRR and Simon_Jester
Spoiler
Grindelwald may also be willing to use Non-Magic people when it serves its purposes, it's not confirmed yet but I always assumed he had something to do with the rise of Nazism and WW2. He might have sided with / aided Hitler just to get all the non-magic people to start killing each other. It'd be a hell of a distraction while he goes about doing his own takeover.
TheFeniX wrote:All it takes is a few Wizards to decide they've had enough and sell their services and knowledge to the highest bidder. I'm sure there's more than a few EU countries HP wizards don't have in their pocket. If not, I've heard nothing about U.S. or Canadian wizards.

Native Americans were the first group of people to embrace the coming of magic in Shadowrun. Well, the Celts and some other in Europe as well, but the Indians used the Great Ghost Dance to hold off the U.C.A.S (US and Canada went Voltron) using mostly Guerilla warfare to attack supply lines and, you know, detonate volcanos. Anyways, not shortly after that, governments around the world did everything they could to get their own magic to fight fire with fire.

If at any point their spells/enchantments fail because "dumb wizards" then just knowing wizards exist means you've got organizations looking and testing for prospective wizards. Even though we don't see them, I don't see why the Americas or Africa don't have their own wizards.

I get this is a kid's series, but realistically considering their utter complacency and incompetence, there would have to some wizards to Just Say No and/or special children snatched up and their powers realized to be more than just coincidence. Imagine Orphan Riddle gets nabbed by Mi-5. Although, the problem here is that wizards seem to have Britain on lockdown. Honestly, I think any kind of dedicated push into the wizard world would have to come from the Americas or Africa. Wizards seem to reach from the UK all the way to Russia, possibly leaving out China, Korea, etc. I saw like, one Asian chick in the entire series, and she was British.
America was shown to have its own Ministry and Wizards in Fantastic Beasts and while it's not confirmed I think its safe to assume that every major power would have some kind of magical organisation.

The Statue of Secrecy seems to be some kind of international agreement given that both the American and European Ministries follow it.
Definitely international- it appears to be something that is upheld globally and enforced by the ICW (International Confederation of Wizards). And frankly, it has to be. If even one country said "fuck it", then the whole thing would be brought into the open very fast and very messily.

Part of the reason the American wizards crack down in such a draconian fashion in Fantastic Beasts seems to be international pressure.

As to Grindlewald... yes, Rowling drew some fairly obvious parallels between him and the Nazis (the treatment of the Deathly Hallows sign is reminiscent of the Swastika, Nurmengard (Grindelwald's fortress-turned prison) could be seen as evoking Nuremberg, etc.).

I also don't think its at all a coincidence that Dumbledore finally brought him down in 1945.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

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Definitely international- it appears to be something that is upheld globally and enforced by the ICW (International Confederation of Wizards). And frankly, it has to be. If even one country said "fuck it", then the whole thing would be brought into the open very fast and very messily.

Part of the reason the American wizards crack down in such a draconian fashion in Fantastic Beasts seems to be international pressure.

As to Grindlewald... yes, Rowling drew some fairly obvious parallels between him and the Nazis (the treatment of the Deathly Hallows sign is reminiscent of the Swastika, Nurmengard (Grindelwald's fortress-turned prison) could be seen as evoking Nuremberg, etc.).

I also don't think its at all a coincidence that Dumbledore finally brought him down in 1945.
IIRC According to Rowling, it definitely wasn't a coincidence. Given that Voldemort grew up in that era, no wonder why he was afraid of facing Dumbledore one-one-one - between Dumbledore's abilities to see through his deceptions and dominate a conversation to his smackdown down of Grindelawald, it's not so surprising that Voldemort would think twice before having a go.

I wonder whether Voldemort would have joined in Grindelwald's plans had he been a bit older and able to do so?
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

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While Voldemort's motivations in the books seem to largely be a result of his unfortunate childhood coupled with exposure to Slytherin values, I do wonder how much of an influence it had on him, growing up alongside Grindelwald's war (on the Wizarding side of things) and WW2 (on the Muggle side of things).

Although Voldemort never seemed to put as much emphasis on trying to argue that he was doing what he did out of some kind of idealism as Grindelwald. One can argue how sincere Grindelwald was-weather he was a misguided idealist who went too far, or just a power-hungry monster pretending to have a cause-, but his slogan was "For the Greater Good", and Fantastic Beasts' depiction suggests a certain amount of (very warped and racist) political idealism. Certainly the young Grindelwald's plan with Dumbledore seemed to have been more of a "Wizard White Man's Burden", rather than Voldemort's "Just torture and kill anyone I think is inferior or who gets in my way". Which is still pretty loathsome any way you slice it, but he's a subtly different kind of villain from Voldemort.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

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The Romulan Republic wrote:While Voldemort's motivations in the books seem to largely be a result of his unfortunate childhood coupled with exposure to Slytherin values, I do wonder how much of an influence it had on him, growing up alongside Grindelwald's war (on the Wizarding side of things) and WW2 (on the Muggle side of things).

Although Voldemort never seemed to put as much emphasis on trying to argue that he was doing what he did out of some kind of idealism as Grindelwald. One can argue how sincere Grindelwald was-weather he was a misguided idealist who went too far, or just a power-hungry monster pretending to have a cause-, but his slogan was "For the Greater Good", and Fantastic Beasts' depiction suggests a certain amount of (very warped and racist) political idealism. Certainly the young Grindelwald's plan with Dumbledore seemed to have been more of a "Wizard White Man's Burden", rather than Voldemort's "Just torture and kill anyone I think is inferior or who gets in my way". Which is still pretty loathsome any way you slice it, but he's a subtly different kind of villain from Voldemort.
And I hope they stick to that in future movies / books because IMO it would make Grindelwald a more interesting villain. What I'd like to see is Grindelwald being more of an Anti-Dumbledore rather than Voldemort's "I do evilz because I am strong, powerful and evilz". IMO Colin Farrel did a good job of portraying that kind of side to Grindelwald, and it's a shame he got swapped out by Johhny Depp last minute for no apparent reason.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

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The irony, though, is that Voldemort actually seems closer to "Wizard Hitler" than Grindelwald as he has been portrayed thus far. Voldemort's the genocidal megalomaniac. Grindelwald seems more like someone who believes he's doing necessary evil in a just cause, based on his portrayal (at least in Fantastic Beasts- the Potter books and Rowlings' statements elsewhere give a mixed impression, while his brief appearance in Deathly Hallows Part One seemed like a shallow generic villain, as I recall).
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

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The Romulan Republic wrote:The irony, though, is that Voldemort actually seems closer to "Wizard Hitler" than Grindelwald as he has been portrayed thus far. Voldemort's the genocidal megalomaniac. Grindelwald seems more like someone who believes he's doing necessary evil in a just cause, based on his portrayal (at least in Fantastic Beasts- the Potter books and Rowlings' statements elsewhere give a mixed impression, while his brief appearance in Deathly Hallows Part One seemed like a shallow generic villain, as I recall).
I suppose YMMV. IMO Voldemort tortures / kills when it serves his purposes but he doesn't appear to have much of an agenda apart from "find Potter, get rid of non-pure wizards". There are times when he has actually shown some restraint, such as during the Battle of Hogwarts where he tried multiple times to stop the fighting peacefully. So long as your not in his way or of no use, Voldemort would tend to leave you alone. Grindelwald on the other hand appears to want nothing less than total world domination, and has already tried to start an all-out war between Wizards and Muggles to do it (and we know he succeeds in the end at least in part due to WW2). Even Voldemort didn't deliberately try to provoke the kind of carnage that Grindelwald did.


ANd As I'm sure you know Grindelwald's appearance in Deathly Hallows Part 1 is completely different than in the book. In the book, despite being old and defenceless Grindelwald mocks Voldemort over his fear of death, then mocks Voldemort for trying to pry info out him and gets killed. In the movie Grindelwald immediately tells Voldemort where the Elder Wand is because... reasons? The book version is way better.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Anyway, back to Dumbledore's plots:

Its difficult to know the full extent of Dumbledore's plans, because he gives contradictory information, and the story is never written from his perspective. And even his big exposition scene at the end gives incomplete information and is of dubious authenticity. So their's considerable room for speculation.

But I've been thinking about the end of Deathly Hallows, and how Voldemort is ultimately taken out. This is probably nothing that hasn't been thought of and discussed before, because Harry Potter has been gone over so much, by so many people, but its an interesting theory, so here goes, and apologies if I'm inadvertently copying someone else here:
Spoiler
Now, Dumbledore would indeed have been incompetent if he had counted on Harry to strike the killing blow. Harry is a capable wizard for his age when it comes to defence and duelling, but he's not really on par with Voldemort in a straight fight. For that matter, Dumbledore admits (at least in the book-I'm not sure about the film) that he did not know for sure that Harry would survive, and he no longer had the protection Lily gave him. And the Elder Wand went to Harry by a chance encounter that Dumbledore could not possibly have anticipated.

Also, frankly, Harry doesn't really have a killer's personality/mindset, though he seems to eventually come 'round to the idea of killing Voldemort.

Now, the plan was intended (in the book at least) to leave Voldemort's powers nerfed, which did work. But even then, he was an exceptionally skilled wizard, as evidenced by the fact that McGonnagle, Kingsley, and Shacklebolt together were barely a match for him in the final battle. And he still had an army.

So, how could Dumbledore have ensured that Voldemort would be completely vanquished?

I can't prove it, but I would bet that he intended Snape, not Harry, to deal the death blow after Harry made Voldemort mortal and vulnerable.

I mean, let's look at this:

Snape was apparently supposed to get the mastery of the Elder Wand by killing Dumbledore.

Snape is an exceptionally capable wizard, who would be well-motivated to kill Voldemort, especially if Voldemort had just murdered Harry.

Snape was the most trusted of all of Voldemort's minions due to his Occulmency skills concealing his true thoughts and feelings, and due to killing Dumbledore.

Snape is one of Dumbledore's most trusted and capable agents.

Snape is definitely willing to use deadly force.

So, Dumbledore contrived to put one of his most reliable and dangerous men in a position where he would be able to get the drop on a weakened Voldemort when it would be most advantageous, while arming him with the most powerful magical weapon he had.

Obviously, if this was the plan, it didn't work out due to a number of factors, and it was something of a long shot that it ever would, but I strongly suspect that Snape was meant to be the trigger man, so to speak, or at least a backup trigger man if Harry couldn't do it. And while Voldemort at his best could have taken Snape easily enough, a weakened Voldemort against a surprise backstab from a Snape who had the loyalty of the Elder Wand? Yeah, my money's on Snape.

I also wonder if in some perverse sense this was supposed to be Severus's "reward". While vengeance isn't Dumbledore's style, it is Snape's, and Dumbledore was, to all appearances, setting up Snape to give him a shot at personally avenging Lily's murder, and everything he was forced to endure in Voldemort's service. And also ensuring that he would be remembered and respected as the wizard who vanquished Voldemort, which is probably the only thing that could realistically have restored his reputation in the Wizarding World at all at that point (other than Harry surviving to speak on his behalf, anyway).
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Post by Tribble »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Anyway, back to Dumbledore's plots:

Its difficult to know the full extent of Dumbledore's plans, because he gives contradictory information, and the story is never written from his perspective. And even his big exposition scene at the end gives incomplete information and is of dubious authenticity. So their's considerable room for speculation.

But I've been thinking about the end of Deathly Hallows, and how Voldemort is ultimately taken out. This is probably nothing that hasn't been thought of and discussed before, because Harry Potter has been gone over so much, by so many people, but its an interesting theory, so here goes, and apologies if I'm inadvertently copying someone else here:
Spoiler
Now, Dumbledore would indeed have been incompetent if he had counted on Harry to strike the killing blow. Harry is a capable wizard for his age when it comes to defence and duelling, but he's not really on par with Voldemort in a straight fight. For that matter, Dumbledore admits (at least in the book-I'm not sure about the film) that he did not know for sure that Harry would survive, and he no longer had the protection Lily gave him. And the Elder Wand went to Harry by a chance encounter that Dumbledore could not possibly have anticipated.

Also, frankly, Harry doesn't really have a killer's personality/mindset, though he seems to eventually come 'round to the idea of killing Voldemort.

Now, the plan was intended (in the book at least) to leave Voldemort's powers nerfed, which did work. But even then, he was an exceptionally skilled wizard, as evidenced by the fact that McGonnagle, Kingsley, and Shacklebolt together were barely a match for him in the final battle. And he still had an army.

So, how could Dumbledore have ensured that Voldemort would be completely vanquished?

I can't prove it, but I would bet that he intended Snape, not Harry, to deal the death blow after Harry made Voldemort mortal and vulnerable.

I mean, let's look at this:

Snape was apparently supposed to get the mastery of the Elder Wand by killing Dumbledore.

Snape is an exceptionally capable wizard, who would be well-motivated to kill Voldemort, especially if Voldemort had just murdered Harry.

Snape was the most trusted of all of Voldemort's minions due to his Occulmency skills concealing his true thoughts and feelings, and due to killing Dumbledore.

Snape is one of Dumbledore's most trusted and capable agents.

Snape is definitely willing to use deadly force.

So, Dumbledore contrived to put one of his most reliable and dangerous men in a position where he would be able to get the drop on a weakened Voldemort when it would be most advantageous, while arming him with the most powerful magical weapon he had.

Obviously, if this was the plan, it didn't work out due to a number of factors, and it was something of a long shot that it ever would, but I strongly suspect that Snape was meant to be the trigger man, so to speak, or at least a backup trigger man if Harry couldn't do it. And while Voldemort at his best could have taken Snape easily enough, a weakened Voldemort against a surprise backstab from a Snape who had the loyalty of the Elder Wand? Yeah, my money's on Snape.

I also wonder if in some perverse sense this was supposed to be Severus's "reward". While vengeance isn't Dumbledore's style, it is Snape's, and Dumbledore was, to all appearances, setting up Snape to give him a shot at personally avenging Lily's murder, and everything he was forced to endure in Voldemort's service. And also ensuring that he would be remembered and respected as the wizard who vanquished Voldemort, which is probably the only thing that could realistically have restored his reputation in the Wizarding World at all at that point (other than Harry surviving to speak on his behalf, anyway).
Ya I can buy that.

Especially if he was supposed to strike once Harry appeared to be "dead" and Voldmort's guard was down. Shoot Voldemort in the back with Avada Kedavara, then shoot the snake, problem solved.
For that matter, Dumbledore admits (at least in the book-I'm not sure about the film) that he did not know for sure that Harry would survive, and he no longer had the protection Lily gave him.
Well in the book Dumbledore's uncertainty mostly stemmed from what Harry's motivations- he knew that the combination of Voldemort being the one to try and kill Harry + Horcrux in Harry + Voldemort not having the Elder's Wand's allegiance + Lily's blood being in Voldemort would ensure that Harry would survive... if Harry voluntarily tried to sacrifice himself for others - "that, in the end I think, is what made all the difference" according to Dumbledore. IMO it's the main reason why Dumbledore kept Harry in the dark as much as possible - if Harry thought that he was going to live, he wouldn't have gone to Voldemort with the mindset that he was sacrificing himself... with the result being that he would have died.

Dumbledore basically managed to setup another version of Lily's sacrificial magic, on both Harry and his friends... and without anyone actually being sacrificed in the process! That's a pretty impressive feat of planning, if a little convoluted.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Tribble wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:The irony, though, is that Voldemort actually seems closer to "Wizard Hitler" than Grindelwald as he has been portrayed thus far. Voldemort's the genocidal megalomaniac. Grindelwald seems more like someone who believes he's doing necessary evil in a just cause, based on his portrayal (at least in Fantastic Beasts- the Potter books and Rowlings' statements elsewhere give a mixed impression, while his brief appearance in Deathly Hallows Part One seemed like a shallow generic villain, as I recall).
I suppose YMMV. IMO Voldemort tortures / kills when it serves his purposes but he doesn't appear to have much of an agenda apart from "find Potter, get rid of non-pure wizards". There are times when he has actually shown some restraint, such as during the Battle of Hogwarts where he tried multiple times to stop the fighting peacefully. So long as your not in his way or of no use, Voldemort would tend to leave you alone. Grindelwald on the other hand appears to want nothing less than total world domination, and has already tried to start an all-out war between Wizards and Muggles to do it (and we know he succeeds in the end at least in part due to WW2). Even Voldemort didn't deliberately try to provoke the kind of carnage that Grindelwald did.
You have a point. Its just... moral nuance isn't what you'd look for in a character meant to be wizard Hitler.
ANd As I'm sure you know Grindelwald's appearance in Deathly Hallows Part 1 is completely different than in the book. In the book, despite being old and defenceless Grindelwald mocks Voldemort over his fear of death, then mocks Voldemort for trying to pry info out him and gets killed. In the movie Grindelwald immediately tells Voldemort where the Elder Wand is because... reasons? The book version is way better.
Yes. Dumbledore suggests that Grindelwald might have repented of his crimes in old age, while Harry suggests that he may have wanted to prevent Voldemort from desecrating the tomb to get the Elder Wand.

Which now that I think about it, is subtly reflective of both men's world views. Dumbledore is the man who believes in redemption and second chances, and always sees the best in people. Harry is someone very much driven by his emotions, love first and foremost.

But yeah, Grindlewald's death was pretty impressive. He basically mocked Voldemort. Given the context, it almost seems like he's looking down on Voldemort, like he's saying "You think you're so smart, you ignorant upstart? I was dark lording while you were a kid." :lol:

Others stood up to Voldemort, but I don't recall anyone else ever openly mocking him to his face like that.

I'd like to think that Grindelwald had repented somewhat in his old age, that having been down the path Voldemort was on, he knew how ultimately futile and hollow it was.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

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There were two things that always suggested to me that many Wizards in Harry Potter are incompetent. In book two most of the school for some research feels that Harry is the heir of Slytherin only realizing how dumb that is after his muggle born best friend is attacked. Then we have in book 4 people who believe Rita Skeeter even the characters who have stated all her stories are lies.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

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So... Potterverse wizards are stupid because their schoolchildren are prone to believe nasty rumors about a fellow student, even if they don't normally trust the source?

Uh, I've got some bad news for you about the rest of humanity in real life, then, Hunter...
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Post by Tribble »

hunter5 wrote:There were two things that always suggested to me that many Wizards in Harry Potter are incompetent. In book two most of the school for some research feels that Harry is the heir of Slytherin only realizing how dumb that is after his muggle born best friend is attacked. Then we have in book 4 people who believe Rita Skeeter even the characters who have stated all her stories are lies.
Or, at least, they are no smarter than the regular human population. Plenty of evidence in real life that we're no better when it comes to believing in ridiculous rumors and believing in "news" stories even when its clear that the stories are full of crap :P
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

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Tribble wrote:
hunter5 wrote:There were two things that always suggested to me that many Wizards in Harry Potter are incompetent. In book two most of the school for some research feels that Harry is the heir of Slytherin only realizing how dumb that is after his muggle born best friend is attacked. Then we have in book 4 people who believe Rita Skeeter even the characters who have stated all her stories are lies.
Or, at least, they are no smarter than the regular human population. Plenty of evidence in real life that we're no better when it comes to believing in ridiculous rumors and believing in "news" stories even when its clear that the stories are full of crap :P
I had less problem with people believing a fake story then people who said earlier in the book Skeeter was a liar who believe later stories by her completely.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Post by hunter5 »

Simon_Jester wrote:So... Potterverse wizards are stupid because their schoolchildren are prone to believe nasty rumors about a fellow student, even if they don't normally trust the source?

Uh, I've got some bad news for you about the rest of humanity in real life, then, Hunter...
It isn't some much the people believing the story it is people who have declared the author a liar multiple times believing one of her stories.
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