Kaiju as Military Weapons

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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2016-12-07 10:27pm

I wanted the giant mecha to pick up nuclear attack submarines and use them as rifles and/or guitars. Imagine the Russian mecha CHERNO ALPHA dual wielding Akula (Schucka) submarines and going rapid fire with Shkval torpedoes! It can have a Kilo-class hip-holstered as a sidearm.

The Chinese mecha might pick up shitty Chinese attack subs that will break down, but no matter it will use them as nunchucks or something.

The Australian mecha's Collins-class sub would probably break down and so it'll use it as a boomerang because STRAYA.

The Murcan mecha can use some modified Ohio-class with foregrips and a Magpull stock and EOTech laser reflex sights and Picatinny rails. :P

After the Murcan mecha's sub-rifle runs out warheads, it can then FIX BAYONETS - a sharpened Littoral Combat Ship attached under-barrel - and like charge and spear the kaiju with em.
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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Simon_Jester » 2016-12-07 10:33pm

Sometimes I really wish we had 'like post' functionality.
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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2016-12-07 10:36pm

I was finding a reasonable compromise between mechas are cool vs mechas don't work use real military weapons and vehicles urgh VTOLs space arrow Navi blue people asteroids hhhhnnnnng MiG-19s. Mechas shooting people using submarines for guns is the best compromise I have.
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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Q99 » 2016-12-08 02:17am

Sea Skimmer wrote:Casualties might be very light if the monster was slow and lumbering enough, and not starting a firestorm such that people simply ran off. Non incendiary monsters are much less dangerous then incendiary monsters.


Kaiju are pretty fast, though. And even at walking speed, Trespasser should've killed tens of thousands in the first hour, walking through the center of San Fran. Evacuations take time.

Did they say how big of nukes?


Not specifically, but a good part of Syndey was lost to the nuke there- that's in part on why the wall there is where it is, it also separates the intact parts from the nuked zone.

I assume they scaled up to fit, hence later ones only requiring one shot. It makes sense they started small with a tac nuke, found it insufficient, and moved up to one that was more assured to work.

It should be noted that there's nothing innate about nukes that makes them good against large targets except for their raw power, quite the opposite- The radiation's not so useful, it can't penetrate deep enough, and overpressure is going to do jack diddly to something with those skeletons, and even heat requires heating up a huge volume down deep enough to get to organs. A nuke is, after all, a non-focused weapon, it release spread out energy, their virtue is purely having as much as needed. Buncha small nukes is a lot worse for such a target than a single big one.

Honestly so many 'why don't they just do X practical things?' people try and bring up on giant monsters is really just rule-of-cool, just what that person thinks is rule of cool.


Also....seriously, if monsters are attacking our coastlines then we would begin a certain amount of physically pull back from the actual waters edge. No reason exists why people MUST keep living right on the damn waters edge. They can move, the buildings become fortifications or giant traps. Nuclear artillery is deployed, and huge conventional mines made of thousand ton barges of RDX are sunk in shipping channels.


That's, like, billions of people. There's plenty of economic and food-related reasons people live on shores.
Last edited by Q99 on 2016-12-08 02:23am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2016-12-08 02:21am

Hurm... why would the kaiju be so hard to detect anyhow?
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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Q99 » 2016-12-08 02:31am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Hurm... why would the kaiju be so hard to detect anyhow?


Ocean is huge and they move deep and often quite fast.

In many areas there's just nothing watching. Or at least not watching close enough to have precision.

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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2016-12-08 02:37am

Just tag them with some remora-transmitter, a skyscraper sized Mothroid won't notice it and then the militaries can figure out where to position the masers when Mecha-Gigantherodragon is heading towards wherever.

Erect - or dump - a network of whale-murdering active sonar buoys.
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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Q99 » 2016-12-08 03:27am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Just tag them with some remora-transmitter, a skyscraper sized Mothroid won't notice it and then the militaries can figure out where to position the masers when Mecha-Gigantherodragon is heading towards wherever.

Erect - or dump - a network of whale-murdering active sonar buoys.


Oh, yea, once you have an opportunity to tag it. That's not always the case before they're nearer more populated (and easier to track) areas.

I think PR did have something up like that after awhile. Still didn't always tell you exactly where they were coming, but "Ok, it's course says it'll probably land here or here." (When Knifehead showed up, Gipsy was at Anchorage, Romeo Blue deployed elsewhere in case it turned south). Godzilla vs Biollante as mentioned had the 'it's going here or here... and we only have the forces to defend one of them'.

I guess a chunk of the problem isn't so much knowing where they are, as where they're going. They can just decide to take right angle turns and such, after all.

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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Sea Skimmer » 2016-12-08 06:00pm

Q99 wrote:Kaiju are pretty fast, though. And even at walking speed, Trespasser should've killed tens of thousands in the first hour, walking through the center of San Fran. Evacuations take time.


Again though, you just have to get out of the way of the monster, not out of a 5km radius. That's not that much more demanding then a fire drill is except for the infirm and very young. With no civil defense measures panic will set in, but humans in real life have already been mentally prepared by decades of now propaganda movies to the threat of monster attack! We'd organize easily.

Evacuating before employing high yield nuclear weapons, sure, that would take time, but you'd just wait for it to leave and drop a 500kt bomb on it when it's at least in the suburbs. Tactical nukes could be used within 1,500m of people doing duck and cover if you wanted.

None of this would be a real concern though because a giant monster would be so stupidly blatant approaching shore. Whatever on the deep ocean, but no way can it not be blatant in shallow water while moving at high speeds. Wake is happening. I mean this should be an appeal of Kaiju, the ability to make a bow wave that crushes buildings on approach.

Not specifically, but a good part of Syndey was lost to the nuke there- that's in part on why the wall there is where it is, it also separates the intact parts from the nuked zone.

I assume they scaled up to fit, hence later ones only requiring one shot. It makes sense they started small with a tac nuke, found it insufficient, and moved up to one that was more assured to work.


Perhaps then. After a point though it would make no sense, because the monster would never do the same amount of radius assured destruction that the nuke would. Just wait for the monster to stop smashing the city and as soon as it leaves drop a 500kt bomb on it. This assuming incompetence continues to prevent the use of nukes on offshore targets.


It should be noted that there's nothing innate about nukes that makes them good against large targets except for their raw power, quite the opposite- The radiation's not so useful, it can't penetrate deep enough, and overpressure is going to do jack diddly to something with those skeletons, and even heat requires heating up a huge volume down deep enough to get to organs. A nuke is, after all, a non-focused weapon, it release spread out energy, their virtue is purely having as much as needed. Buncha small nukes is a lot worse for such a target than a single big one.


You can make a shaped charge nuke easily. It just has little real life point. But you really don't need one anyway when you get a skin-skin contact with nuclear device to target. Mere geometry at that point says an enormous amount of the effect goes into the target. This effect is far more intensive then anything generated by conventional explosives, mainly entirely unmitigated neutron hits at .03C and X-rays that generate something like 3 million psi of dynamic radiation pressure. The nuclear crater is a thing because of this! That's mostly material it physically shoves out of the way. A Kaiju exposed to any amount of nuclear fireball is getting kicked with a force that would make that kind of crater.

If they could withstand this at all without being flung through the air they ought to be totally immune to any kind of low velocity punch from a Jaeger that weighs less then at least several hundred thousand tons. The fact that a nuke is smaller doesn't make it less intensive, bigger nukes are the same spectrum of radiation and the same kinds of neutron effects, the fireball effect just gets way bigger and longer. No real point exists to using a nuke with a fireball bigger then the target, firing multiple rounds would be a far more efficient use of energy past that.

My conclusion is that the morons dumb enough to build a wall were also possibly too dumb to ever score an actual direct nuke hit.


Honestly so many 'why don't they just do X practical things?' people try and bring up on giant monsters is really just rule-of-cool, just what that person thinks is rule of cool.


I'm not sure I heard anyone think that wall thing was anything but stupid as a portion of the movie. It just made it more in your face how dumb it all was. Nuclear artillery failing would have looked way cooler for any purpose. I blame it on Hollywood being too left wing.

That's, like, billions of people. There's plenty of economic and food-related reasons people live on shores.


That sounds like DNC worthy defeatism to me citizen, you should report to the closet total war mobilization control point to be checked for possible alien mind worms. The point is not to remove all population from 20 miles of the coast, which is what billions would mean. Landmark seeking monsters are unlikely to hazard random fishing villages in Africa.

What really isn't even an option I'd say, is acting like nothing is wrong and we should let every moron continue to occupy obvious attack zones from which a mass evacuation is impossible in the face of the magic surprise monsters. That means nobody within a couple hundred meters of shoreline, nobody in the upper stories of office buildings a greater distance inland, and nobody near major chemical refineries or certain kinds of fuel storage tanks where a monster could unleash and utterly enormous toxic or FAE hazard. That's not a joke in real life as it is.

Vital industries would certainly be moved, high tension lines rerouted inland, and new port and shipyard facilities would start appearing as high up rivers as possible. War mobilization factories and industry would be focused far inland, the US already did that in a deliberate manner in WW2. Trying to rely on something as lol as a wall, I mean the monster could always just DIG UNDER IT...is just so absurdo dumb.
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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Sea Skimmer » 2016-12-08 06:20pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I wanted the giant mecha to pick up nuclear attack submarines and use them as rifles and/or guitars. Imagine the Russian mecha CHERNO ALPHA dual wielding Akula (Schucka) submarines and going rapid fire with Shkval torpedoes! It can have a Kilo-class hip-holstered as a sidearm.


A Kirov would make an excellent top hat.
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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2016-12-08 07:41pm

A nuke directly to the face of a kaiju would be - while more directly damaging to the monstroso - I think less "wide area damaging" in that it won't create as huge an overpressure wave as an airburst. The directly-nuked parts, the cratered bits, would be like super radioactive tho. It's like the difference between city-killing airbursts vs. bunker/Cheyenne Mountain/Mt. Yamantau-killing groundbursts.
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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby K. A. Pital » 2016-12-09 01:42am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I wanted the giant mecha to pick up nuclear attack submarines and use them as rifles and/or guitars. Imagine the Russian mecha CHERNO ALPHA dual wielding Akula (Schucka) submarines and going rapid fire with Shkval torpedoes! It can have a Kilo-class hip-holstered as a sidearm.

He could pull out a Typhoon class sumbarine and club the monsters to death. All while Clubbed to Death plays in the background.

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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2016-12-09 01:43am

Maybe the mecha can ride the Kirov as a surfboard if it's too huge.
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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby K. A. Pital » 2016-12-09 01:54am

A side question is, what if the biological form in question can also infect the local population (carrying some pathogens within, being a carrier but itself not affected)? Then its military nurgleness usefulness will improve, right?
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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2016-12-09 02:01am

Imagine like Kaiju Ebola being coughed out by some giant monstroso who's infected lungs are the size of 747s. I bet the pathogenic microorganisms are probably as big as volleyballs. A volleyball-sized tuberculosis bacillus landing on your face. Crushing your dog. Holy fuck. Better wear those face masks.
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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby K. A. Pital » 2016-12-09 04:18am

The bacteria become the face masks. Like the face huggers in Half Life.
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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Sea Skimmer » 2016-12-09 06:34am

Sounds like we'd need to issue legionary shields for GERM WARFARE and buckets of bleach water instead of sand for the Giant Germ Watch of the Home Guard. I mean normally the whole problem is you can't see germs to fight back.

Germs would be very effective at spreading disorder, if this is militarily valuable or not depends on the scenario and objectives. Germs don't go away just because you win.
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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Q99 » 2016-12-09 09:38am

Military-weapon wise, I kinda feel Shin Godzilla would be one of the tougher ones.

It has exploitable cooldowns, but flipside, it has active defenses, making interception incredibly difficult beyond even simple toughness, and very wide-scale destruction with it's fire, allowing a major strike before too much evacuation is possible.

Sea Skimmer wrote:That sounds like DNC worthy defeatism to me citizen, you should report to the closet total war mobilization control point to be checked for possible alien mind worms. The point is not to remove all population from 20 miles of the coast, which is what billions would mean. Landmark seeking monsters are unlikely to hazard random fishing villages in Africa.

What really isn't even an option I'd say, is acting like nothing is wrong and we should let every moron continue to occupy obvious attack zones from which a mass evacuation is impossible in the face of the magic surprise monsters. That means nobody within a couple hundred meters of shoreline, nobody in the upper stories of office buildings a greater distance inland, and nobody near major chemical refineries or certain kinds of fuel storage tanks where a monster could unleash and utterly enormous toxic or FAE hazard. That's not a joke in real life as it is.

Vital industries would certainly be moved, high tension lines rerouted inland, and new port and shipyard facilities would start appearing as high up rivers as possible. War mobilization factories and industry would be focused far inland, the US already did that in a deliberate manner in WW2. Trying to rely on something as lol as a wall, I mean the monster could always just DIG UNDER IT...is just so absurdo dumb.


I'm not saying nothing should be done, but that it's a many-trillion dollar, incredibly infrastructure intensive multi-decade project.

I imagine there'll be a steady exodus for, well, obvious reasons, even aside from a planned exodus, but it's a gigantic undertaking you're talking about, even by these rather huge standards. And past a certain point you will even see people moving into said couple-hundred-meter exclusion zone. Available resources ripe for the taking would attract people to roll the dice. Maintaining such a zone in some of the most valuable territories on Earth would be difficult, to say the least.

Also, fuel and chemical storage and such? You need them near ports to fuel ships and trade. You can't, after all, unload a chemical tanker ship or oil tanker to an area far from the water, and many countries are very reliant on that sort of thing. Nor is air transport a suitable substitute. So... you're still gonna have those when people calculate their worth as greater than risk of Kaiju attack.

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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Sea Skimmer » 2016-12-09 04:31pm

If the threat isn't legitimate enough aka mass destructive enough to let us enforce mobilization measures then what will also be true is that the earth GDP will keep rapidly expanding (until whenever fiscal collapse is hit) because the Kaiju apparently just aren't doing enough damage to stuff that matters. Which means this is really just operation certain victory at that point as the planet produces mountains of weapons so high they fall over and crush the Kaiju at a certain point. Anyway the economic loss of squatters being killed is low, and in war we make decisions on basis like that, evacuation even if not fully enforced would save a tremendous amount of material, not just lives.

As is a 75 trillion dollar GDP at just 15% mobilization is 11.25 trillion dollars to throw around, and two or three times that is possible for periods of years but not decades. The Chinese have proven over and over again in China and Africa that you can pull a city out of your butt in a lot less then decades, the only holdup is the physical supply of cement and wood. I would reckon on 25+ trillion dollars if you actually relocated 1 billion people on a rush basis with minimal standards but real buildings and reuse of furnishings from evacuation structures. Certainly several times that if you wanted to do the job really well or had no existing roads to exploit at all, but it's nothing impossible and you will need workers for new inland war factories.

Fuel and chemical storage have no need to be colocated with water terminals, I could point out any number of oil terminals where the local pipelines to the tankage already run miles. The British actually built and still operate a nationwide web of hardened tanks and pipelines remote from their oil terminals they began building in the 1930s as a strategic defense measure. That's pretty important in fact to why the Nazi's didn't just totally fuck the British on fuel in 1940 when they could launch relatively accurate daylight attacks.

Oil companies do what they do because they want to save pennies on the thousands of dollars, the tonnages are immense and actual refinery operations make almost no profit, its all in crude trading. But if your in a war and worried about any amount of deliberate damage the cost equation suddenly overwhelmingly favors actually taking serious steps to protect this stuff, and the oil industry isn't going to complain that hard when paid to do it. We'd outright move some refinery production equipment in the worst spots, at least if it was still decently new and valuable, not old rust towers. All that stuff is generally built off site and just bolted to a large concrete slab, nothing irreverseable about it once you have a huge enough crane to lift it off.
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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Q99 » 2016-12-09 04:53pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:As is a 75 trillion dollar GDP at just 15% mobilization is 11.25 trillion dollars to throw around, and two or three times that is possible for periods of years but not decades. The Chinese have proven over and over again in China and Africa that you can pull a city out of your butt in a lot less then decades, the only holdup is the physical supply of cement and wood.


Keep in mind, it's not just building cities, it is building cities while also losing a good chunk of the world's most productive cities infrastructure (or in some cases, not the most productive in an absolute sense but the center of the economic activity of their countries) and location associated trade and industry- including fishing, so there's food concerns while this is going on and the impact will often be focused on specific countries and causing greater disruption as a result.

11 trillion dollars is not going to cover it.

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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Sea Skimmer » 2016-12-09 05:46pm

11 trillion is a lowball, for one year. It could just as easily be 50 trillion out of a much larger inflation economy if the monsters presented a threat to demand it. It would have to be like that if we need rationing as shown in the movie. You seem to want to ignore what that would mean as far as war mobilization goes, and even just heavy government spending in general.

As for fishing, that's a thing where we have to have rationing everywhere already, or else our awesome stern trawlers can gobble up all the fish, period? I don't think that's going to be a serious world problem in this situation, it would be a good thing long term if fishing went down and was replaced with more rational use of the grain supply. What would be a problem is that a lot of food warehousing and bulk storage is in cities and port facilities, that's exactly the kind of thing that needs to be moved first, because it's loss would have disproportional impact. Better to move the bulk of the warehouse and accept higher transport costs because otherwise you'll just have to maintain larger reserves somewhere else anyway. Food is annoyingly non convertable.

Funny enough that topic is becoming a big deal out in California, because the present arrangement of most food warehousing in the state put it on the wrong side of the san andreas fault from the people in the LA area. Since a major fault slip will cut every road and rail in the state this a concern. The state already did take measures to solve that problem as far as the LA water supply went.

As a side, solar power would boom even harder to the limit that it could be produced. Even without bulk batteries its pretty ideal for any kind of disaster except large air blasts, which will probably turn the panels into projectiles.
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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Sea Skimmer » 2016-12-09 06:14pm

I'm thinking, concerning the whole area contamination idea, Godzilla really seems like he should be a true radioactive death monster if he was nuclear reactor powered. Just like those air cooled British reactors, but with no filters. So it'd convert dust in the air into fallout constantly just by existing...

But it gets better when this monster starts fires, because then he'll be inhaling all that smoke and explosive gas mixture and irradiating it in turn into much more fallout.

If he breaths fire meanwhile that could be from his lung reactor material actually igniting, so he's shooting a superheated stream of burning uranium reactor fuel and combustion vapor at people at high velocity. This way it not only starts fires, it would have a nice solid slicing option from being a jet of dense metal.

If you killed it, then you cause the reactor go to melt down and catch on fire, with no way to stop it except to either blowup the corpse massively to scatter the reaction, or attempt to bury it in sand in place. Bonus points if the monster also progressively explodes from massive acid-base reactions being ignited after a stabilizer decays, because it's bones should explode one by one as it dies to make doing anything about the body difficult as possible.

With a godzilla sized femur detonating with the force of say amatol per pound, the resulting explosion might be equal to several hundred tons of TNT energy. That would sure make it fun to try to bury the burning reactor fire corpse. Structural metal matrix explosives are entirely plausible, and any monster this kind of size has to be built of material at least like good metal, or else be absurdly light.
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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby TithonusSyndrome » 2016-12-17 04:04pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Majin Gojira wrote:Others fly at ridiculously fast speeds (Mach 5+ in some cases), which might make even satellite tracking difficult depending on the flight patterns (unless satellite tech is far more advanced than I think it is).


They are, and been such a while. The latest state of the art fielded is thermal imaging that tracks specific missile warheads in space optically. A mach 5 flying powerstation like object would be tracked by 1980s thermal imaging satellites. Any large supersonic aircraft and all hypersonic air vehicles are fairly easy to track at this point, for the same reasons that we now have such insane cellphones.


At least one monster being referred to here achieves flight at least in part due to having the ability to levitate magnetically, namely Rodan, and I suppose this implies that other flying monsters have something similar going on as well. I imagine that a 50,000 ton kaiju putting out a magnetic field to assist its own flight would create a county-sized radar image or something like that.
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Solauren
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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Solauren » 2016-12-17 05:58pm

The magnetic field to keep something like Rodan up would probably totally fuck with normal weapons, and take down systems that were not EM-Hardened.

Suddenly, Japan's performance in monster movies doesn't seem that bad anymore.....

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Majin Gojira
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Re: Kaiju as Military Weapons

Postby Majin Gojira » 2016-12-17 07:01pm

Solauren wrote:The magnetic field to keep something like Rodan up would probably totally fuck with normal weapons, and take down systems that were not EM-Hardened.

Suddenly, Japan's performance in monster movies doesn't seem that bad anymore.....


It gets worse with things like King Ghidorah, who flies in part by controlling his own gravity/localized gravity field, or Hedorah, who flies with jets of SULFURIC ACID INTENSE ENOUGH TO MELT A MAN TO BONES IN SECONDS.
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