Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby madd0ct0r » 2016-11-27 04:46pm

What would he need in Kings Landing vs thugs with crossbows at best?

Smoke bombs. Grappling hook and fine but strong rope, some sort of restraint to replace cuffs( string would do), battarangs, periscope, caltrops, knockout drops, blinding powder (chilli) and a light source.

Smoke bombs, knockouts and light sources would be the hardest, but they have alchemists capable of making enough burning explosive to wipe out a fleet, so those don't seem insurmountable. Perhaps magnesium flares?
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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby Solauren » 2016-11-27 06:44pm

Batman has been removed from the scenario.

it would take YEARS for Bruce to create the needed tools for him to be the Batman again. Why? Cause the most advanced thing he has to work with his a hammer and anvil. He's not Tony Stark working in a cave with a box of modern tech. He's in the body of a bull of a man, in what is the dark ages. Batman is effectively dead.

This is how BRUCE WAYNE goes on, not how it returns to being batman. Because, there is no way he can.

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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-11-27 09:41pm

Ralin wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
And he won't have the same hang-up over Lyanna Stark that OTL Robert did. It's quite possible that without him flying into a rage over Rhaegar kidnapping her and only pursuing formal inquiries with Aegon Targaryen's court, the war that topples the Targaryens may not happen or will happen in a different form.


I can't see the Starks letting it go regardless, especially after Ned's kin got offed by the Mad King.

Bruce could just say he's sitting it out (probably earning the life-long enmity of House Stark, although I doubt they'd win without his assistance), but its a hell of a choice for him, because either way, people will die because of him.


Sitting the war out is not an option unless he abandons Robert's identity entirely and flees. Robert did not start Robert's Rebellion. The war was kicked off by Aerys ordering Jon Arryn to send him Ned and Robert's heads and Lord Arryn raising his banners rather than obey by murdering two wards who were guests in his household.


He could skip the country to Braavos or something, then. But I can't see him running away and leaving other people to die in a billion years.

He will fight.

Well I mean, that's more or less what Ser Barristan did at Duskendale.


And if their's one person more bad ass than Ser Barristan in Westeros now, its the Goddamn Batman.
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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-11-27 09:46pm

Solauren wrote:Batman has been removed from the scenario.

it would take YEARS for Bruce to create the needed tools for him to be the Batman again. Why? Cause the most advanced thing he has to work with his a hammer and anvil. He's not Tony Stark working in a cave with a box of modern tech. He's in the body of a bull of a man, in what is the dark ages. Batman is effectively dead.

This is how BRUCE WAYNE goes on, not how it returns to being batman. Because, there is no way he can.


You and Gaidin are, of course, correct that it would take time and resources to replace the Bat-arsenal. Though madd0ct0r is correct that the opposition he would face would be considerably less formidable as well.

Bruce could still employ some of his traditional tactics and skills, and I do think that he would still think of himself as "Batman", if only in his own mind (certainly DCAU Batman would- he said himself that he doesn't call himself Bruce Wayne in his mind).

But how he lives life when he can not simply be the Batman is perhaps the most interesting question here. Its one that seldom gets raised with Batman, and part of the reason why the ending to the Nolan trilogy so intrigues me- because its a very rare story where Batman moves on.

What sort of man would Bruce be without the Bat and Gotham?
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby Raw Shark » 2016-11-27 10:05pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:What sort of man would Bruce be without the Bat and Gotham?


A very good, but very crazy man. Like me. If I was stuck in Westeros, oh man, would I tear shit up. And have fun doing it. I would ... I don't even know where to begin here. I would do a lot of things.

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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby Simon_Jester » 2016-11-27 10:19pm

Solauren wrote:Batman has been removed from the scenario.

it would take YEARS for Bruce to create the needed tools for him to be the Batman again. Why? Cause the most advanced thing he has to work with his a hammer and anvil. He's not Tony Stark working in a cave with a box of modern tech. He's in the body of a bull of a man, in what is the dark ages. Batman is effectively dead.

This is how BRUCE WAYNE goes on, not how it returns to being batman. Because, there is no way he can.
For Wayne to be the Batman, or something comparable to the Batman, in a medieval society, would be rather less difficult, I think. Remember, he doesn't have to worry about thugs with guns anymore. His superlative close combat skills are going to pay off hugely, and he's been transferred into the body of a man who may be if anything even stronger and more athletic than he is.

That said, circumstances are going to effectively force him to take the throne, flee Westeros, or die. If he does take the throne, he may well find himself in a position to do a lot more good as king than he ever did as Batman. So we may see him putting on the 'mask' only when he sees some issue that a masked knight errant can deal with, but a king cannot. That's going to be pretty rare.
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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-11-27 10:24pm

Simon_Jester wrote:
Solauren wrote:Batman has been removed from the scenario.

it would take YEARS for Bruce to create the needed tools for him to be the Batman again. Why? Cause the most advanced thing he has to work with his a hammer and anvil. He's not Tony Stark working in a cave with a box of modern tech. He's in the body of a bull of a man, in what is the dark ages. Batman is effectively dead.

This is how BRUCE WAYNE goes on, not how it returns to being batman. Because, there is no way he can.
For Wayne to be the Batman, or something comparable to the Batman, in a medieval society, would be rather less difficult, I think. Remember, he doesn't have to worry about thugs with guns anymore. His superlative close combat skills are going to pay off hugely, and he's been transferred into the body of a man who may be if anything even stronger and more athletic than he is.

That said, circumstances are going to effectively force him to take the throne, flee Westeros, or die. If he does take the throne, he may well find himself in a position to do a lot more good as king than he ever did as Batman. So we may see him putting on the 'mask' only when he sees some issue that a masked knight errant can deal with, but a king cannot. That's going to be pretty rare.


Exposing a corrupt lord (or helping one of their victims) without risking rebellion/civil war?
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-11-28 01:26am

Also, I can totally see Bruce Wayne slipping out of the keep (much to the consternation of his Kings' Guard) to go take down small-time crooks in the streets of King's Landing. Bust up one of Littlefinger's whorehouses, that sort of thing.

He doesn't necessarily need to when he can order troops around, of course, but he'd probably choose to because a) its who he is, and b) he'd want to keep his skills from getting rusty for when he does need them. And training isn't exactly the same as practical experience.

Also, their are things he can do more quietly and cleanly as the Bat than if he sent in the Goldcloaks or the Kings' Guard or the House Baratheon knights. And their would be things some people would tell him in his Batman persona (or incognito as some random commoner) that they wouldn't tell the king.

Another big question that tends to come up in such "modern person in Westeros" scenarios- does he introduce gunpowder/guns? Modern explosives are an important part of his usual arsenal, but he has major personal issues with guns (or at least, some versions do), and he'd probably realize that once he introduced such technology, he'd have little control in the long run over who used it.

My money is on animated Batman not doing it, Affleck Batman doing it, and comics Batman... probably depends on the writer, I guess.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby Simon_Jester » 2016-11-28 02:54am

The Romulan Republic wrote:Also, their are things he can do more quietly and cleanly as the Bat than if he sent in the Goldcloaks or the Kings' Guard or the House Baratheon knights. And their would be things some people would tell him in his Batman persona (or incognito as some random commoner) that they wouldn't tell the king.
Now I'm picturing the king's incognito alter ego, "Tinderbox" Malone. :D
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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby madd0ct0r » 2016-11-28 07:52am

Solauren wrote:Batman has been removed from the scenario.

it would take YEARS for Bruce to create the needed tools for him to be the Batman again. Why? Cause the most advanced thing he has to work with his a hammer and anvil. He's not Tony Stark working in a cave with a box of modern tech. He's in the body of a bull of a man, in what is the dark ages. Batman is effectively dead.

This is how BRUCE WAYNE goes on, not how it returns to being batman. Because, there is no way he can.


Do you want me to go through the step by step for each of the items in the utility belt list I posted?
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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-11-28 10:30am

Question: what sort of armour would best suit his Batman persona?

Bullet-proof armour is, I'm guessing, neither possible nor needed.

Would full plate be too heavy/cumbersome for the kind of ninja tactics Batman prefers? What would be the best bet for providing protecting against both blunt instruments and blades while allowing for maximum stealth and flexibility?
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby Elheru Aran » 2016-11-28 12:41pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:Question: what sort of armour would best suit his Batman persona?

Bullet-proof armour is, I'm guessing, neither possible nor needed.

Would full plate be too heavy/cumbersome for the kind of ninja tactics Batman prefers? What would be the best bet for providing protecting against both blunt instruments and blades while allowing for maximum stealth and flexibility?


Novel version Westeros is pretty vague on what kind of armour technology they have exactly, apart from noting that the Dothraki think that Jorah Mormont's plate is too heavy (but he does prove that it isn't, quite effectively). So some kind of hodgepodge mix of armour technologies ranging from chain-mail to fabric/leather/metal combinations to full plate, I suppose, rather like the show depicts actually.

Full plate is surprisingly flexible and quite useful in its application, but I can't see Batman wearing something like that unless he's really concerned about going up against a dangerous opponent. He'd be more likely to just wear a chain-mail shirt, perhaps light plate reinforcements in vital areas and leave it at that as far as armour went; the thick wool and linen clothing they wore back in medieval times, and I assume wear similar in Westeros, is surprisingly protective in its own right. Not that good against blunt instruments and swords, but useful enough against knives and daggers especially when reinforced with a good mail coat.

A rigid helmet would be a must, though. Even in the age of chain mail, that was a requirement. Something along the lines of a bascinet with klappviser face-mask, perhaps.
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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby Raw Shark » 2016-11-28 01:28pm

By the late middle ages, chain under plate was a thing if you could afford it. Good armor and a horse made you a tank back then.

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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby Elheru Aran » 2016-11-28 01:45pm

Raw Shark wrote:By the late middle ages, chain under plate was a thing if you could afford it. Good armor and a horse made you a tank back then.


Yeah, tanks aren't known for kung-fu-kicking a person halfway across an alley though ;) the real downside of chain is that it's heavy. Heavier than plate, often enough. And if you don't belt it tightly, most of that weight comes down on your shoulders. Plate conversely is pretty chunky if you weight the whole kit, but each part tends to be individually secured, so that weight gets broken down and distributed across your torso and legs.

There was definitely plenty of chain used pretty much all the way until the modern period, but it was just as common to use it as 'voiders' (reinforcing pieces) sewn onto a cloth base under plate armour.

As far as Batman goes, though, he's *not* a typical medieval combatant. Unarmed combat is something that was familiar to them, of course-- every culture has a tradition of wrestling, boxing, that kind of thing-- but this was an age where literally every man carried a knife and knew how to use it (peeling potatoes, of course. doesn't everybody?). Someone who specializes in it as almost their *only* way of fighting would be very strange to the medieval mindset.

Remember Christopher Marlowe? He died in a bar fight... to a stiletto through the eye. In Gotham, you're more likely to get shot. Batman may be caught off guard by the amount of melee weapons around him. If a bunch of Lannister guards with pole-hammers surrounded him, he'd have to be very good to avoid getting a 6" spike through the brain-pan.
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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby Simon_Jester » 2016-11-28 03:05pm

Yeah, but on the other hand, it's not like people don't and haven't pulled knives and clubs on him before.

Given that he has at least a few days to recognize he's in medieval times, I think he can adjust. Especially since he doesn't even have to keep it a secret that he's massively practicing combat with melee weapons since that's a totally normative leisure activity for Robert Baratheon (or any other Westerosi nobleman).

Hell, he could start practicing fighting guys with swords with his bare hands (or armored gauntlets or other such things that Batman could/would build into his costume). And people would just think he was eccentric, especially since he'll turn out to be pretty good at it.
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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby Raw Shark » 2016-11-28 06:48pm

Yeah, I think Bruce would be pretty okay in this setting on the combat side. I forget the book, but there's one scene where Donal Noye squares off with Jon Snow and tells him the reason he wins all the fights and the other recruits resent him is because he grew up in a rich household with a personal trainer. Grenn was a farmboy. Pip was a mummer. Jon was a bastard, but he was taught how to fight.

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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby Simon_Jester » 2016-11-28 11:09pm

The flip side of this is that almost everyone in the setting who's even worth going after is a nobleman.

Which means they have also spent years learning how to fight, under the tutelage of skilled personal trainers, in the full expectation that one day their life will depend on how well they learn their lessons.

So there is a fairly high density of people who can, one on one, at least slow Batman down in the sense that he won't just be able to effortlessly block/dodge their first attack and coldcock them. And who would rapidly become a threat to Batman in a multiple-people-on-one scenario.
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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby Ralin » 2016-11-29 01:59am

Simon_Jester wrote:The flip side of this is that almost everyone in the setting who's even worth going after is a nobleman.

Which means they have also spent years learning how to fight, under the tutelage of skilled personal trainers, in the full expectation that one day their life will depend on how well they learn their lessons.

So there is a fairly high density of people who can, one on one, at least slow Batman down in the sense that he won't just be able to effortlessly block/dodge their first attack and coldcock them. And who would rapidly become a threat to Batman in a multiple-people-on-one scenario.


I'm not sure noblemen learn those lessons or are forced to train hard enough for that to be consistently true. A lot, sure, but is the average nobleman really going to be much better at fighting than the cops or gangsters Batman deals with on a fairly regular basis? There has to be a significant percentage of them who either never learned what they were taught well or who let their skills go to seed or what not.

And a lot of that would be the equivalent of classroom training, not real-life experience.

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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-11-29 02:16am

Ralin wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:The flip side of this is that almost everyone in the setting who's even worth going after is a nobleman.

Which means they have also spent years learning how to fight, under the tutelage of skilled personal trainers, in the full expectation that one day their life will depend on how well they learn their lessons.

So there is a fairly high density of people who can, one on one, at least slow Batman down in the sense that he won't just be able to effortlessly block/dodge their first attack and coldcock them. And who would rapidly become a threat to Batman in a multiple-people-on-one scenario.


I'm not sure noblemen learn those lessons or are forced to train hard enough for that to be consistently true. A lot, sure, but is the average nobleman really going to be much better at fighting than the cops or gangsters Batman deals with on a fairly regular basis? There has to be a significant percentage of them who either never learned what they were taught well or who let their skills go to seed or what not.

And a lot of that would be the equivalent of classroom training, not real-life experience.


Their would no doubt be noblemen who didn't work hard, but were content to just sit on their asses and drink and whore or something (like Robert himself, minus the love of hunting and fighting). But its my understanding that the norm for noblemen in Westeros is to train with weapons from childhood, and to fight in battle.

Granted, they won't all have a great deal of practical combat experience (though likely will have tourney experience), but this is taking place during Robert's Rebellion- a civil war will be a great way for most of the noblemen to get "hands on" experience.

And even in peace time, their will be the odd bandits to deal with and so on.

Edit: Of course, that doesn't mean that they'll all be as good as Bruce. Batman is effectively (in all but name, at least) superhuman in what he pulls off. I'd imagine that even among people who have trained in and practiced hand to hand combat for years, he's at the high end of the curve.
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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby Simon_Jester » 2016-11-29 08:29am

What I'm getting at is that there are a lot of people out there who, while not skilled enough to beat Batman, are at least skilled enough that Batman will have to be careful dealing with them in a melee fight.

Like, any given professional boxer would almost certainly lose to Batman, because Batman is one of the greatest unarmed fighters in the world. But if Batman got into a fistfight with a serious heavyweight contender... Sure, Batman might very well win. Probably win, even. But it would take a while, and would probably require his undivided attention. He wouldn't be able to concentrate on dealing with the heavyweight while also dodging the attacks of a bunch of other random mooks at the same time- either the mooks would get him, or the heavyweight would.

That's what I'm getting at. There are a LOT of people in Westeros who know what they're doing with a sword, in the sense of having studied for years. They may not all be good, but they're good enough that Batman can't just effortlessly plow through them like a steamroller.

Whereas most 20th century criminals, while they may be tough, aren't necessarily extensively trained fighters.
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Re: Lord Bruce Wayne (Game of Thrones).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-11-29 08:36am

In that case, he'd have to try to use a more stealthy approach to take down the best fighters by surprise, separate them and pick them off, and avoid getting into head to head fights with multiple trained opponents.

Definitely more difficult, but aren't these basically his tactics for dealing with gun men in Gotham?

Edit: As to Elheru Aran's point about purely unarmed combat being a rarity, that's probably true, but I don't think it would be remarked upon too much, except maybe for some knights getting bruised egos after Bruce took them out unarmed in sparring matches or something.

It actually makes a degree of sense to be able to defend yourself unarmed if possible, in case you get disarmed or are ambushed by an assassin when your sword/whatever isn't on you.

Also, Bruce can certainly hold his own with a sword- even without Robert's memories, this is a man who has crossed blades with Ras Al Ghul (well, I don't know if all versions have).
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