Vetinari goes to Westeros.

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Vetinari goes to Westeros.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-11-20 03:15am

On the morning of the eve of the fall of King's Landing during King Robert's rebellion, Lord Vetinari, the Patrician of Ankh Morpork, awakens in the body of one Lord Tywin Lanister (bonus- they're both played by Charles Dance).

This is Vetinari as of the novel Thud. TV version for Westeros, because I'm more familiar with it.

Vetinari receives the full memories of his host, so he's not completely lost in this new setting.

Scenario Two:

His Grace, His Excellency, The Duke of Ankh Commander Sir Samuel Vimes, Blackboard Monitor awakens in the body of the commander of the Goldcloaks of King's Landing.

All other factors are the same as the first scenario.

Scenario Three: Both Vimes and Vetinari, although neither is immediately aware of the other's presence.

Can Vetinari, or Vimes, bring their unique brand of justice to the living hell that is Westeros?
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Re: Vetinari goes to Westeros.

Postby Crossroads Inc. » 2016-11-20 11:36am

As much as I am a fan of Discworld and both Vimes and Vetinari... Sadly they largely work and win because they are IN Discworld.

On Discworld they have "Naritivium" both protecting them and guiding them.
Also both of their "power" comes from knowing Ahnk'Morpok backwards and forwards.
Vimes can walk the city blindfolded, also he has "HIs Crew" Carrot, Detritus, Knobby, Colon.... Times would be deprived of all of these.
Vetniari would be in pretty much the same problem... NO spies, no support, no knowledge.

Neither of them have anything much on their own.

The only way they have any chance is if they start generating their own "Narativium" field..
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Re: Vetinari goes to Westeros.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-11-20 04:03pm

Crossroads Inc. wrote:As much as I am a fan of Discworld and both Vimes and Vetinari... Sadly they largely work and win because they are IN Discworld.

On Discworld they have "Naritivium" both protecting them and guiding them.
Also both of their "power" comes from knowing Ahnk'Morpok backwards and forwards.
Vimes can walk the city blindfolded, also he has "HIs Crew" Carrot, Detritus, Knobby, Colon.... Times would be deprived of all of these.
Vetniari would be in pretty much the same problem... NO spies, no support, no knowledge.

Neither of them have anything much on their own.

The only way they have any chance is if they start generating their own "Narativium" field..


Hmm.

It is rather amusing wondering how GoT would go if you applied Discworld rules of Narativium to it.

Although on the "no support" point, you'll note that in the OP, I dropped Vetinari into the body of Tywin Lanister, with Tywin's memories. So he would theoretically have the resources of House Lanister at his disposal. Basically the scenario is "Vetinari cosplaying as Tywin".

Vimes would only have the Goldcloaks of King's Landing, but then, Vimes is a watchman at heart, not a lord, so I put him where he'd be in more familiar surroundings.
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Re: Vetinari goes to Westeros.

Postby Lord Revan » 2016-11-20 04:15pm

Vetinari as Tywin could work if he can play the role well enough to fool those that know Tywin intimitely like friends or family, GoT has assassins capable of "stealing faces" so any "out of character" behaviour would cause issues to Vetinari (out of character for Tywin that is) and yes I know that the assassin can't literally steal a face at a whim but the question is would someone like Tywin know that?
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Re: Vetinari goes to Westeros.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-11-20 04:19pm

Yeah, that's a problem, though aside from Tyrion (who might see Tywin getting replaced as an improvement), Tywin's children aren't the brightest bulbs in Westeros. ;)

Not sure about his larger extended family.
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Re: Vetinari goes to Westeros.

Postby Lord Revan » 2016-11-20 04:30pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:Yeah, that's a problem, though aside from Tyrion (who might see Tywin getting replaced as an improvement), Tywin's children aren't the brightest bulbs in Westeros. ;)

Not sure about his larger extended family.

Jaime and Cercei aren't brightest bulbs but far from the dimmest also. To me their main problem seems to be that they're so used to getting what they want that they have issues dealing with situations where they don't get what they want. Also Kevan Lannister (Tywin's younger Brother) seemed reasonbly smart if not as aggressive as members of the main branch.

As for Tyrion while he has little love for Tywin I suspect he seems Tywin as the "devil you know", while Vetinari would be the "devil you don't know".

And that's excluding thing like loyal servants or bannermen who might tip the incest twins up that there was a problem.
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Re: Vetinari goes to Westeros.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-11-20 04:54pm

Well, then it comes down to weather Vetinari is a good enough actor that, with access to Tywin's memories, he could convince Tywin's retainers and extended family that he is, in fact, the lord of House Lanister.

My money is on yes. Face-changing assassins may exist, but face-changing assassins who can steal their target's memories? Who would buy that over the much simpler explanation of "The strains of leadership and war have been making Lord Tywin act a little strange"?

Moreover, who is going to have the balls to make that sort of accusation against Tywin?
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Vetinari goes to Westeros.

Postby Simon_Jester » 2016-11-20 11:55pm

Vetinari would not have much difficulty filling Tywin's shoes. For that matter, Tywin wouldn't have much trouble filling Vetinari's shoes. They're both clever, ruthless, somewhat innovative, and with an excellent nose for intrigue.

The big difference between the two men is that Vetinari appears to have little or no ego, in the sense of wanting to aggrandize himself and his dynasty. Whereas Tywin Lannister is in large part driven by that desire.

Vetinari would want to prosecute the capture of King's Landing to its conclusion on general principles; someone like Mad King Aerys doesn't deserve a throne. The biggest change is that Vetinari doesn't care about putting Lannister offspring on the throne, or for that matter putting Robert on the throne.

One interestingly alternate move for him would be to simply NOT order Amory Lorch and Gregor Clegane to murder Aerys's children, but instead to capture them and bring them under Lannister protection.

Of course, that creates a conflict because by this point I think Robert's been crowned, so legitimate Targaryen heirs present a problem for him. At the same time, though, he can't really afford an open conflict with 'Tywin Lannister' over the status of the children.

There would also be the matter of Rhaella and Daenerys on Dragonstone...




Then you have Sam Vimes.

Now, Vimes' first reaction may be "oh crap not again," because this is after the events of Night Watch. Except this time he's in an unfamiliar city, albeit one he is blessed with knowledge of. He's going to have a much stronger desire to get home to his wife and child, and being unable to do so will cause him a lot of distress and may ultimately incapacitate him.

If that (somehow) doesn't happen, he's going to have absolutely zero tolerance for Mad King Aerys's continued existence, and he's not a fan of monarchy at the best of times. He's going to come into conflict with a lot of powerful men, fast.
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Re: Vetinari goes to Westeros.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-11-21 01:10am

Simon_Jester wrote:Vetinari would not have much difficulty filling Tywin's shoes. For that matter, Tywin wouldn't have much trouble filling Vetinari's shoes. They're both clever, ruthless, somewhat innovative, and with an excellent nose for intrigue.

The big difference between the two men is that Vetinari appears to have little or no ego, in the sense of wanting to aggrandize himself and his dynasty. Whereas Tywin Lannister is in large part driven by that desire.


Yes and no.

Twin also seems to have a vindictive side to him that Vetinari doesn't. But maybe that's just my perception.

Vetinari would want to prosecute the capture of King's Landing to its conclusion on general principles; someone like Mad King Aerys doesn't deserve a throne. The biggest change is that Vetinari doesn't care about putting Lannister offspring on the throne, or for that matter putting Robert on the throne.


Quite.

Vetinari cares about putting competent people in high office.

One interestingly alternate move for him would be to simply NOT order Amory Lorch and Gregor Clegane to murder Aerys's children, but instead to capture them and bring them under Lannister protection.


But would he?

Its tempting to think that Vetinari would be a kinder lord than Westeros is used to, but he's no stranger to knives in the back if it comes down to it. He is a former student of the Assassin's Guild. If he concluded that the only way to prevent further rounds of civil war was to make sure the entire Targaryen line was wiped out, I could see him doing it.

On the other hand, Vetinari was able to turn the "long lost heir returns" scenario to his advantage with Carrot. But that was operating under Discworld Narativium. If GoT operates under Narativium, its of a very different variety.

I wonder how quickly Vetinari will figure that out, and how it will affect his plans.

One thing I can say is that if he decided the Targaryens needed to die, he'd probably make sure it was done a lot more cleanly than Lorch and Clegane did it, or eliminate Lorch and Clegane once he heard the details. The Assassin's Guild has standards, after all. :wink:

Plus, like I said, Vetinari is ruthless, not vindictive.

Of course, that creates a conflict because by this point I think Robert's been crowned, so legitimate Targaryen heirs present a problem for him. At the same time, though, he can't really afford an open conflict with 'Tywin Lannister' over the status of the children.


Of course, that would leave everyone wondering why Tywin Lanister's heart grew three sizes that day.

There would also be the matter of Rhaella and Daenerys on Dragonstone...


I could see him letting them slip away precisely to manufacture another "long lost heir returns" scenario, like with Carrot.




Then you have Sam Vimes.

Now, Vimes' first reaction may be "oh crap not again," because this is after the events of Night Watch. Except this time he's in an unfamiliar city, albeit one he is blessed with knowledge of. He's going to have a much stronger desire to get home to his wife and child, and being unable to do so will cause him a lot of distress and may ultimately incapacitate him.

If that (somehow) doesn't happen, he's going to have absolutely zero tolerance for Mad King Aerys's continued existence, and he's not a fan of monarchy at the best of times. He's going to come into conflict with a lot of powerful men, fast.


Yeah, Vimes might snap, especially putting this after Night's Watch, but then he's always on the edge of snapping, with it being mainly his implacable will and sense of Justice that's holding him in check.

I think in the scenario where its just him, he fails regardless, because he's one man against a world that is ultimately harsher than his own. But if he can link up with Vetinari, then the two of them together could probably triumph.

Otherwise, Vimes ends up doing his best to limit collateral damage during the fall of King's Landing, maybe being briefly praised as a hero depending on who he ends up getting in the way of during the fall of King's Landing, and then emulating his famous ancestor and leading a brief, futile struggle to reform King's Landing before he pisses off Tywin or Robert or some lesser nobel and ends up on the chopping block, to become a footnote in Westrosi history (though future reformers might mythologize him and remember him as a martyr, much as Spartacus is remembered today even though he lost).

With Vetinari backing him as in canon, however, he'll be able to do a lot more to bring some semblance of Justice to King's Landing, at least, if not to the rest of Westeros.

Vimes would probably handle the investigation into Jon Arryn's death and the parentage of Cersei's children much better than Ned Stark since, you know, he's an actual investigator.

I don't want to think about Vimes vs. Joffery though. That would get... ugly. Joffery being just the kind of person who would push all of Vimes' buttons.
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Re: Vetinari goes to Westeros.

Postby madd0ct0r » 2016-11-21 03:50am

Vimes vs Joffery would be very brief and involve a long drop down a deep well in short order.

How long would it take for Vet to get a spy network going? Most of the players seem to have one, so he would get Tywin's and have to copy others too. Vetinari us a master of disguise, improvisation, headology and balance. In his youth He once killed a patrician in a room full of people, none of whom 'saw' him due to it being in their own interest not to. His biggest issue in GoT is the number of people making stupid decisions in their own lack of self interest. There would be a bit of culling, expeditions or jousting to get the numbers down.

I wonder what Tywin knew about the wall?
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Re: Vetinari goes to Westeros.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-11-21 03:58am

madd0ct0r wrote:Vimes vs Joffery would be very brief and involve a long drop down a deep well in short order.


And everyone but Cersei rejoiced. :D

How long would it take for Vet to get a spy network going? Most of the players seem to have one, so he would get Tywin's and have to copy others too. Vetinari us a master of disguise, improvisation, headology and balance. In his youth He once killed a patrician in a room full of people, none of whom 'saw' him due to it being in their own interest not to. His biggest issue in GoT is the number of people making stupid decisions in their own lack of self interest. There would be a bit of culling, expeditions or jousting to get the numbers down.

I wonder what Tywin knew about the wall?


I imagine Vetinari would rather enjoy matching wits with Varys and his spy network.

I can't say I know much about the quality of Tywin's existing spies, though.
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Re: Vetinari goes to Westeros.

Postby Simon_Jester » 2016-11-21 11:11am

The Romulan Republic wrote:Its tempting to think that Vetinari would be a kinder lord than Westeros is used to, but he's no stranger to knives in the back if it comes down to it. He is a former student of the Assassin's Guild. If he concluded that the only way to prevent further rounds of civil war was to make sure the entire Targaryen line was wiped out, I could see him doing it.
I could too, but I'm not sure it would help in his opinion. If he knows what Tywin knows, he knows Robert well enough to know that Robert won't make a very good king.

On the other hand, Vetinari was able to turn the "long lost heir returns" scenario to his advantage with Carrot. But that was operating under Discworld Narativium. If GoT operates under Narativium, its of a very different variety.
Antinarrativium.

But, yes, Vetinari could very easily arrange to do Varys one better and spirit away one or more of the Targaryen children to serve as claimants to the throne at a later date.

Of course, that creates a conflict because by this point I think Robert's been crowned, so legitimate Targaryen heirs present a problem for him. At the same time, though, he can't really afford an open conflict with 'Tywin Lannister' over the status of the children.
Of course, that would leave everyone wondering why Tywin Lanister's heart grew three sizes that day.
To be fair, Tywin did wipe out a family to the last woman and child before, when he was younger, "but they were 'only' the Reynes, not the Targaryens," a monarchist might say.

There would also be the matter of Rhaella and Daenerys on Dragonstone...
I could see him letting them slip away precisely to manufacture another "long lost heir returns" scenario, like with Carrot.
Definitely. I can also see him doing a better long term job of protecting them against intrigue. Dany may wind up keeping her house with the red door...

I don't want to think about Vimes vs. Joffery though. That would get... ugly. Joffery being just the kind of person who would push all of Vimes' buttons.
If you put Vimes in place at the sack of King's Landing in place of whoever was running the goldcloaks at that time, there's a high probability someone will try to remove him at some point prior to the events of the novels. However, yeah, if you suddenly replaced Janos Slynt with Sam Vimes... the mind boggles, it really does.
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Re: Vetinari goes to Westeros.

Postby streetad » 2016-11-21 11:12am

Vetineri has first hand knowledge of all kinds of supernatural/magical creatures and forces so is far more likely than anyone in Westeros to take the threat from north of the wall seriously. Dragons and ice zombies wanting to destroy his city is basically a typical Tuesday for him. So from that point of view dropping him in to essentially being the power behind Robert's throne is probably a significant improvement.

Also not being blinded by the need to advance his family at any cost means he's far more likely to a) notice and b) put a stop to his children's incest ruining all his plans. Not being a hidebound old money aristocrat he's also much more likely to be on to Littlefinger's shenanagans. He'll thrive, in other words.

Vimes on the other hand is likely to be viewed as a useful idiot by the various king's landing factions ('honest to a fault but not the sharpest knife in the drawer') until he is asked to do something that violates his moral code, at which point he will end up at the bottom of the blackwater. Unless he can link up with Vetineri who knows the man's real worth and will doubtless find him something useful to do.

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Re: Vetinari goes to Westeros.

Postby Elheru Aran » 2016-11-21 01:47pm

Vetinari starting before Robert's Rebellion is a very interesting point in Tywin's life.

He can prevent Robert from marrying Cersei, and therefore Joffrey and the other Jaime/Cersei bastards aren't going to be an issue. Moreover, he's bright enough to cotton on to the fact that Jaime and Cersei are boinking, and he can circumvent that by banishing Jaime to the Wall posthaste after the Rebellion is concluded-- a suitable enough punishment for a Kingsguard who killed the King, but who you don't actually want to execute. Jaime is a good enough fighter-- I don't remember enough to say whether he's a decent leader or not-- that he could be an asset to the Night's Watch.

As head of the Lannisters, he's got enough pull with Robert to gently nudge him into doing whatever he wants, and once Robert gets into his whole drinking-hard-letting-the-Hand-run-everything phase of kingship, it would be easy for Vetinari to manipulate himself into being named Hand with the unspoken public justification being that it's a payment on the massive debt House Baratheon owes the Lannisters. And Vetinari as Hand... well, I don't think the War is going to happen anytime soon, upstart Iron Islanders and Targaryen heirs aside.
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Re: Vetinari goes to Westeros.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-11-21 09:48pm

Elheru Aran wrote:Vetinari starting before Robert's Rebellion is a very interesting point in Tywin's life.


Technically, the OP says Vetinari takes over just before the fall of King's Landing, so the war is already in full swing, but not yet concluded.

He can prevent Robert from marrying Cersei, and therefore Joffrey and the other Jaime/Cersei bastards aren't going to be an issue. Moreover, he's bright enough to cotton on to the fact that Jaime and Cersei are boinking, and he can circumvent that by banishing Jaime to the Wall posthaste after the Rebellion is concluded-- a suitable enough punishment for a Kingsguard who killed the King, but who you don't actually want to execute. Jaime is a good enough fighter-- I don't remember enough to say whether he's a decent leader or not-- that he could be an asset to the Night's Watch.


How quickly would he figure out that Jaime and Cersei are screwing each other, or what kind of a person Cersei is? Because without that, their's no real reason, practically speaking, not to marry Cersei to Robert (though much better reasons to keep Robert off the throne altogether if possible). Remember, most of Cersei's worst transgressions have not yet occurred. At this point, the worst she's done as far as I know is to fuck her brother and be a typical arrogant noble.

And having his "daughter" married to the king could prove as useful for Vetinari as for Tywin. Though I'm not sure how Vetinari would feel about arranged marriages. Those aren't a thing in Ankh Morpork, are they?

Also, Vetinari as a father is uncharted territory, and should be interesting. If nothing else, he'll recognize, and promote, Tyrion's potential, I suspect.

As to Jaime and the Wall... its a way to make the twin fucking stop, but I don't think Vetinari would actually care about the Kingslaying. I mean, one of his chief deputies is Vimes, a man who once arrested him and who has been involved in revolt against multiple leaders of Ankh Morpork, and who's ancestor famously executed an evil king.

If anything, I think he'd see the Kingslaying as a point in Jaime's favour, and Jaime as a check on any king who went too far.

Which conjures the amusing, albeit unlikely, image of Vetinari trying to mould Jaime into his Vimes in this new world.

As head of the Lannisters, he's got enough pull with Robert to gently nudge him into doing whatever he wants, and once Robert gets into his whole drinking-hard-letting-the-Hand-run-everything phase of kingship, it would be easy for Vetinari to manipulate himself into being named Hand with the unspoken public justification being that it's a payment on the massive debt House Baratheon owes the Lannisters. And Vetinari as Hand... well, I don't think the War is going to happen anytime soon, upstart Iron Islanders and Targaryen heirs aside.


I wonder how he'd handle the Targaryens. He played the returning heir to his advantage well enough in canon, but Daenerys and especially Viserys are not Carrot, and the circumstances are very different. Still, I think he'd try to find some accommodation short of war, although I can't for a moment imagine Vetinari would be okay with having canon Viserys on the throne.
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Re: Vetinari goes to Westeros.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-11-21 10:35pm

Simon_Jester wrote:I could too, but I'm not sure it would help in his opinion. If he knows what Tywin knows, he knows Robert well enough to know that Robert won't make a very good king.


Given when Vetinari steps into Tywin's shoes, is it a forgone conclusion that Robert will be king? I'm a little fuzzy on the timeline here.

Then again, unless Vetinari can convince people to get behind King Tywin Lanister, what better options does he have? Westeros's nobility isn't going to be amenable to an Ankh Morpork-style Patrician, and it probably wouldn't be a suitable system for governing an empire instead of a city state, anyway.

King Ned Stark? Well, I suppose he's a decent man by the standards of Westrosi nobility, and while he might be more difficult to manipulate than Robert, Vetinari has worked around honourable men before.

Of course, their are the surviving Targaryens. More on that shortly.

Antinarrativium.


Heh.

But, yes, Vetinari could very easily arrange to do Varys one better and spirit away one or more of the Targaryen children to serve as claimants to the throne at a later date.


Then again, Vetinari isn't exactly a fan of monarchy, is he? He probably gets on with Carrot because Carrot isn't interested in actually being King.

I guess the question is how much he's willing to compromise to accommodate the realities of Westeros. If he accepts that its going to be a monarchy either way, he might decided that the Targaryens are the lesser evil compared to Robert (if he can't get/doesn't want King Ned, anyway).

But King Viserys? Yeah, no. Not unless Viserys turns out very different in this time line.

Arranging an accident for Viserys, then getting Queen Daenerys? Maybe. Or if he moves fast, given the timing of this scenario, he might be able to prevent the deaths of the Targaryen children in King's Landing, which gives him more options.

To be fair, Tywin did wipe out a family to the last woman and child before, when he was younger, "but they were 'only' the Reynes, not the Targaryens," a monarchist might say.


I suppose that's as good a justification as any in a feudal shit hole.

Definitely. I can also see him doing a better long term job of protecting them against intrigue. Dany may wind up keeping her house with the red door...


See above reg. Targaryens.

If you put Vimes in place at the sack of King's Landing in place of whoever was running the goldcloaks at that time, there's a high probability someone will try to remove him at some point prior to the events of the novels. However, yeah, if you suddenly replaced Janos Slynt with Sam Vimes... the mind boggles, it really does.


:lol:

If he actually had a leader who was willing to give him some latitude (because otherwise he'd end up leading a revolt and then probably dead, or just dead), I'd pay good money to see that.

Edit: Another factor that's not being considered is prophecy. How much will that constrain Vetinari's actions? Especially since prophecy might be the closest thing we've got to Discworld Narativium here.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Vetinari goes to Westeros.

Postby Simon_Jester » 2016-11-22 04:53am

At the moment I'm too frustrated by random crap happening to me to go line-by-line with you, so I'll just note one thing.

Prophecy in A Song of Ice and Fire is famously, famously treacherous. Maester Marwyn's quote applies. Many prophecies come true in convoluted ways, or don't come true at all, or seem to be able to find multiple ways to come true.

So I'd assume prophecy is a powerful force, but not one that will directly constrain Vetinari's actions so much as it will subtly shape the outcomes of those actions over the long run, to ensure that the prophecies are fulfilled. The dragon will have three heads, but not necessarily the same ones it would have if Tywin Lannister had remained inhabitant of his body.
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Re: Vetinari goes to Westeros.

Postby Crazedwraith » 2016-11-22 06:28am

Just a point. If Vetinari can smuggle away the kids from King's Landing then they outrank Viserys or Danearys. They're Rheagar's kids and the kids of the first son are ahead in the line of succession than any of the other of the king's other kids. Kidd-napping them and not telling anyone about it might be Vetinari's style. Install Robert as path of least resistance but if he gets out of line you have the Targaryen kids to produce and delegitimise him.

Book spoiler:
Spoiler
This apparently happened as of Dance Of Dragons. Jon Connington and Varys rescued Aegon and raised him in the free cities. Though this is quite likely to be fraudulent in someway.



Another point: Tywin is a famed battle commander. To the best of my knowledge Vetinari has no experience of war or combat much preferring soft power options. That's going to hinder his impersonation quite a bit.

Vimes as others have pointed out is basically dead meat sadly. If Vetinari lets anything approximating the sack of king's landing happen, Vimes is deader than a door nail trying to protect the small folk.
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