Doctor Strange

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Lord Revan
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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby Lord Revan » 2016-11-14 11:35am

Chimaera wrote:It probably would've been better if Strange was also reset with the loop, making Dormammu the only one to experience the same thing over and over, and therefore being literally the only one able to change it. That way Strange wouldn't have to enter a battle of willpower with a vastly powerful and impossibly ancient entity, who probably sees centuries as a mildly distracting wait in the dentist's office.

Still, guess he was impatient as vastly powerful and impossibly ancient entities go, so he broke before Strange did :P
or maybe the idea of spending eternity with Strange was so unappealing that he gave up rather have to face that (I've not seen the movie so I can't say for sure).
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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby Lost Soal » 2016-11-14 12:09pm

He probably couldn't set it up differently. As with the rest of this movie, and the MCU in general, fuck knows what the actual timescale was in that. It may have just been the dozen attempts we saw or the director knows that you can't show every single instance in which case it could have been months or years.
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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby Solauren » 2016-11-14 02:01pm

Lord Revan wrote:
Chimaera wrote:It probably would've been better if Strange was also reset with the loop, making Dormammu the only one to experience the same thing over and over, and therefore being literally the only one able to change it. That way Strange wouldn't have to enter a battle of willpower with a vastly powerful and impossibly ancient entity, who probably sees centuries as a mildly distracting wait in the dentist's office.

Still, guess he was impatient as vastly powerful and impossibly ancient entities go, so he broke before Strange did :P
or maybe the idea of spending eternity with Strange was so unappealing that he gave up rather have to face that (I've not seen the movie so I can't say for sure).


Or, he figured Strange was bluffing, and after killing him a dozen times, and Strange not caring, he decided "Not worth the risk"

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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby Iroscato » 2016-11-14 02:07pm

Lost Soal wrote:He probably couldn't set it up differently. As with the rest of this movie, and the MCU in general, fuck knows what the actual timescale was in that. It may have just been the dozen attempts we saw or the director knows that you can't show every single instance in which case it could have been months or years.

Pff. Guess Infinity Stones aren't all they're cracked up to be then :P
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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby Crazedwraith » 2016-11-14 03:09pm

I dont think the spine guy was from Hammertech we see Avengers Tower in an early establishing shot before or immediately after the car crash.
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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2016-11-14 08:19pm

I'm reminded of the Doctor Who ep Heaven Sent, it had a similar repeating time loop thing going on- though with Strange we don't know how many iterations he went through.
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Your claim of using a scientific equation is laughable when all you have done is butcher science to the point it makes 'The Core' look like a fucking documentary. Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby Kojiro » 2016-11-14 10:37pm

bilateralrope wrote:Was Dr Strange experiencing every single loop or was he being reset along with everything else ?

Both of them were experiencing/remembering it. Dormammu was clearly instantly frustrated by it and we get to see Strange almost bored at having to once again explain he's here to bargain. Having to voluntarily go your own violent and painful death, over and over shouldn't be something portrayed as boring.
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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby LadyTevar » 2016-11-15 02:04am

The key word here about Dormammu is TIMELESS. "The Dark Realm is Timeless", "Dormammu is Timeless", that was repeated constantly.

Dormammu was experiencing possibly for the first time experiencing TIME. Yes, Strange looped it, trapping them both, but Strange was human and lived within Time. He knew it was looping, but because his mind thought of Time as something that could be played and rewound like thread on a bobbin, he had the stronger resistance. "Whatever happens to me is not going to matter, it will go away the next loop, and never have happened by the end of it."

Dormammu, however, may not even have realized there was a loop, but have seen it as mortals normally see it -- A Straight Line. Strange was taking everything Dormammu gave out and returning unharmed over and over again.
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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby Cykeisme » 2016-11-15 02:27am

It's also possible that since Strange was in control of the "time spell" (or rather, manifested effect of the Time Stone), he could also control what he remembered and what he did not.
So perhaps he went through aeons of deaths, but only remembered the dozen or so we see in the movie.. the important ones being the first (where Strange arrives), and the last (where Dormammu gives up).

Plus, like LadyTevar said, the very idea of being trapped in time (or the idea of being trapped in general, or the idea of being subject to time in general) was horrific to a timeless, ageless, inifinite being like Dormammu.
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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby bilateralrope » 2016-11-15 04:12am

Strange was resetting his body with each loop. Question is if his mind was being reset as well.

Dormammu being timeless probably means time spells affect him differently.

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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby Kojiro » 2016-11-15 04:29am

LadyTevar wrote:The key word here about Dormammu is TIMELESS. "The Dark Realm is Timeless", "Dormammu is Timeless", that was repeated constantly.

See I think that's a bit of a cop out. Dormammu clearly understands he does not 'have' Earth and wants it, and that this change of status is achievable. To me that seems like he understands that there is a progression or sorts, if not time then something very akin to it. Time is essential to any sort of action we can even can even comprehend. Even speaking to someone- in english no less- requires some sort of space/time to exist. His realm in general didn't seem static itself, but was moving and seemed to possess its own space/time.

Just for what it's worth, I don't recall being told Dormammu was timeless, only that his realm was. But I've only seen it once and could well be wrong.

Plus, like LadyTevar said, the very idea of being trapped in time (or the idea of being trapped in general, or the idea of being subject to time in general) was horrific to a timeless, ageless, inifinite being like Dormammu.
Eh, I didn't get the impression he was worried or afraid. He clearly had an expectation that his attacks would end Strange- again an odd concept for an entity completely unfamiliar with time.

The other thing I don't like is that it seems to assume Dormammu's response will be a very human one- something that would actually be quite surprising. What if Dormammu was actually unable to grasp the concept of time the way most humans can't grasp a 5th dimension? If he was simply confused by it? Worse yet, what if Dormammu enjoyed the loop, the endless toying with his victim, unaware it was in fact a temporal loop? That's the problem- Dormammu must both be aware of the temporal mechanics in which he finds himself and at the same time unaware that in any test of patience he's in the vastly stronger position.

Strange was resetting his body with each loop. Question is if his mind was being reset as well.

His banal repeating of the 'I've come to bargain' line implied he was quite aware and tiring of repeating himself. Had he reset his mind he'd be in a much stronger position.
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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby Vendetta » 2016-11-15 08:00am

Kojiro wrote:Time is essential to any sort of action we can even can even comprehend. Even speaking to someone- in english no less- requires some sort of space/time to exist. His realm in general didn't seem static itself, but was moving and seemed to possess its own space/time.


Whilst it's true that we comprehend things in terms of time, time isn't necessarily a fundamental property of the universe and trying to understand some things, particularly quantum events, in terms of time makes them even more confusing.

So it's quite possible that states can change in the absence of time.

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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby Kojiro » 2016-11-16 12:16am

Quantum effects are rather on the small side though. Surely the idea of someone walking into a room, checking their watch and stating 'I've come to talk!' are outside the quantum realm? It also poses a question of what happens when Dormammu's realm actually meets Earth? Is Earth sucked into his realm, removing it from normal reality? Or was it more he was coming through to this realm?
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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby Solauren » 2016-11-16 12:53pm

How do we know 'Flame head' (if you don't get the reference, you are too young....) is really outside of time? How do we know time doesn't exist in his dimension?

Immortal/Timeless/Ageless are things that tend to get muttered/mixed up by writers, and most people.

Immortal: Unable to die (except under fixed circumstances). Usually ageless.
Timeless: Unaffected by the passage of time.
Ageless: Does not age. Does not mean can not die.

Dormammu doesn't appear to age. His realm doesn't appear to change accept as he wills it. That would give the impression of timelessness. However, people can clearly interact with him from dimensions that we know have time. Odds are, time exists in his dimension.

All we know for sure is that Dormamnu is crazy powerful, and his followers that join him do not die as we understand death.

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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2016-11-16 01:59pm

I think anyone who Googles Dormammu will get that reference, personally I associate that with Ghost Rider.

I noticed a similar thing with Skyrim, where Dragons are supposedly immortal and have no concept of mortality... except that they're far from unkillable. Perhaps it's something unique to the Dragonborn and is the only being that can kill them.

Someone that hasn't really been talked about is Tilda Swinton's character, someone who has sustained herself for centuries off of dark real energy (somehow).
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Your claim of using a scientific equation is laughable when all you have done is butcher science to the point it makes 'The Core' look like a fucking documentary. Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby Lord Revan » 2016-11-16 02:11pm

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:I noticed a similar thing with Skyrim, where Dragons are supposedly immortal and have no concept of mortality... except that they're far from unkillable. Perhaps it's something unique to the Dragonborn and is the only being that can kill them.
Yes the Dragonborn is special in that he permanently kill a dragon by absorbing their soul, when anyone else "kills" the dragon, they don't truly kill the dragon as the soul lives on and can restore the body.
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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2016-11-24 10:22pm

Kojiro wrote:
bilateralrope wrote:Was Dr Strange experiencing every single loop or was he being reset along with everything else ?

Both of them were experiencing/remembering it. Dormammu was clearly instantly frustrated by it and we get to see Strange almost bored at having to once again explain he's here to bargain. Having to voluntarily go your own violent and painful death, over and over shouldn't be something portrayed as boring.


I think he didn't remember each deaths, he remembered setting up the time loop before going to Dormammu but everything after the " *flies to Dormammu and tells him he's here to bargain" point was reset... Still in seeing Dormammu's reactions he knew that they had already looped a lot?

And I think the "software" of the Eye of Agimoto showed him how many incarnations had passed?
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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby Kojiro » 2016-11-25 11:28pm

I'm not even sure not remembering the deaths would be a benefit. That means each time he floats down it's like waking from a nightmare, where you immediately reenter the same nightmare. You never die (or remember it) but you are constantly moving towards a death that 'never comes'. Don't they say that anticipation of death is worse than death itself?

The other problem with that take- of Strange no suffering- is that it makes Strange's actions vastly less heroic. He's beaten Dormammu just by walking in there and never himself suffers or is threatened in any meaningful way.

It also poses the problem of how the loop ends. It's be challenging to script a reset that wasn't vulnerable to being broken (assuming the spell is somewhat 'software' programmed).
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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2016-12-06 02:55am

Kojiro wrote:I'm not even sure not remembering the deaths would be a benefit. That means each time he floats down it's like waking from a nightmare, where you immediately reenter the same nightmare. You never die (or remember it) but you are constantly moving towards a death that 'never comes'. Don't they say that anticipation of death is worse than death itself?

The other problem with that take- of Strange no suffering- is that it makes Strange's actions vastly less heroic. He's beaten Dormammu just by walking in there and never himself suffers or is threatened in any meaningful way.

It also poses the problem of how the loop ends. It's be challenging to script a reset that wasn't vulnerable to being broken (assuming the spell is somewhat 'software' programmed).


The script ends when it isn't death-triggered anymore? Of course if he ends the script right in front of Dormammu and then Dormammu kills him... it'll be useless and game over. But Dormammu doesn't KNOW the specifics of Strange's time-loop mechanism and Strange won't go "Oh I activate and deactivate it by doing this... and if you kill me after I deactivate it you can get off scott free, whoopie!"

I'd prefer Strange dealing with the anticipation of a death that never comes than remembering all the hundreds of deaths he experienced because... that would mean he'd return to Hong Kong in front of Wong and Mordru all messed up and PTSDed... unless he placed himself in some zone of zen so all those deaths he saw, he saw like the visions of death the Ancient One saw in her visions foreseeing her own death?

On the other hand... the Ancient One never saw her own death but... in knowing the inevitability of death in the "unforeseeable futures" that blocked her visions... and being sort-of-prepared for it as we saw in the film... IMO that kind of parallels with Strange also NOT experiencing his own deaths via time-loop, thanks to said time-loop, but nonetheless being aware of what was happening in the abstract sense, with the perpetual anticipation of dying and failing, while having the willingness to carry on with it ad infinitum...


(Apple-ogies for the late response...)
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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby Kojiro » 2016-12-06 04:38pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:The script ends when it isn't death-triggered anymore? Of course if he ends the script right in front of Dormammu and then Dormammu kills him... it'll be useless and game over. But Dormammu doesn't KNOW the specifics of Strange's time-loop mechanism and Strange won't go "Oh I activate and deactivate it by doing this... and if you kill me after I deactivate it you can get off scott free, whoopie!"

Obviously he's not going to announce it's deactivated but you can see where it'd get tricky. Since it resets after Strange's death, but not when he fights or when he actually bargains, it's reasonable to infer it resets upon his death. But you'd think Dormammu would notice this- that the loop resets only when he kills Strange. I mean, he's literally given dozens of chances to notice this. How long until one of us in that scenario wouldn't try alternate things to simply killing Strange? Imprison him or knock him out? Ok maybe it resets under those conditions too. And if you simply ignore Strange then he manually resets it... which leads us back to the whole 'Strange walks in, wins, waits for Dormammu to realise' scenario.

I'd prefer Strange dealing with the anticipation of a death that never comes than remembering all the hundreds of deaths he experienced because... that would mean he'd return to Hong Kong in front of Wong and Mordru all messed up and PTSDed... unless he placed himself in some zone of zen so all those deaths he saw, he saw like the visions of death the Ancient One saw in her visions foreseeing her own death?
Oh no doubt. He'd be massively messed up if he actually experienced those deaths but his bored attitude seems to indicate it was more tedious than traumatic. The Ancient One I think had time- lots of time- to reconcile with her own death (as well I suspect a sense that her own life ending was 'correct' in some way) and was ready to die. Strange on the other hand I don't think is at all ready to die.

Basically for Strange to be truly heroic he has to suffer and overcome but it appears he doesn't. It looks like Dormammu had about as much chance of winning that confrontation as a bunch of bank robbers would against Superman. Nothing they do is effective and it's in no way difficult or traumatic for Supes. All it takes it time for the bad guy to realise he's beaten- at no point is our hero ever in peril. As a 'boss fight' it's kind a let down to me.
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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2016-12-06 07:05pm

But I think that's the whole point of Strange's subversiveness...

And I think that's also one of the themes too... of these eastern philosophies... like he won the battle, he beat Dormammu and such, before even the FINAL BOSS FIGHT. The pain and trauma and shit that Strange was supposed to experience in that final struggle... that was the thing he was already dealing with in like the whole first part of the movie anyway. Nearly dying, taking months to recuperate from that, becoming invalid, etc. Traumatized. Sure they could have him go through that after Dormammu... but he already went through that at the very start of his arc! And the only reason why he could beat Dormammu was exactly that - by going through that beforehand and getting the kind of character development he went through!

Circles and mandalas are the whole point of the movie, not only in the special effects or in the "deus ex machina" time loops but in the symmetries of the happenings and how they affect people in their lives! And this allows me to excuse plot holes! BWAHAHAHA!
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Re: Doctor Strange

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-12-07 10:05am

Having seen the film...

The plot and some of the dialog seem rather generic and cliche- the typical Marvel formula combined with pseudo-New Age babble. That said, the acting, visuals, and especially direction/editing are largely good enough, especially in the early part of the film, to mostly let me forget that. Its a film that's a lot better in the execution, I think, than it is on paper.

I could quibble about lots of points- the cliches, the speed with which Strange comes into new powers at times (always a problem with origin films), the way all the wizards waste time fighting with martial arts when they can bend reality at will (nice effects their though, if pretty obviously influenced by Inception), the somewhat sudden and anti-climactic finale (or at least it felt that way to me, though Strange's trick was admittedly clever), Dormamu's rather cartoonish and unimpressive face...

But it was still, on the whole, a good film. In particular, the visuals were often very clever, the scenes of Strange in the operating room, and his Spoiler
crash/recovery
, had a level of tension for me that I rarely encounter in a Marvel film, and the villain had one of the more interesting motivations for a Marvel film (reminded me of one of the villains from the seventh Dresden Files book).

If you like the Marvel formula, well, this is about as well-executed and imaginative as it gets. I'd probably put this in the top five films for the franchise.
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