Luke Cage (spoilers)

[Gaidin]

No, here's the thing. Immortality held only by the elite is the best case scenario. This is a "pick your dystopia" scenario.

Immortality for all would be catastrophic. With no more death from old age we would overrun the resources of the planet far far faster than we are already doing, and with everyone super strong and almost invulnerable the steps required to stop desperate people from trying to take food or increasingly scarce resources would be immensely destructive, worsening the problem. That's cataclysm within at most two generations.

Immortality without equally massive changes in resource availability would exacerbate every social problem humanity has.

This assumes that over the course of the minimum of of a generation immortality for all would not fundamentally change how humanity thinks and plans. Right now we're short term planners because we have short careers. What happens when that changes? What happens when we suddenly have a reason to plan over centuries. What happens when corporations and shareholders have a reason to take the board's advice of "take the loss now because we're doing this and in 100 years it means this for you".

[General Zod]

Immortality for everyone isn't all that desirable anyway when we're still confined to the same planet. Assuming nothing else changes our population would skyrocket exponentially and we'd run out of resources to support ourselves.

[Gaidin]

I don't think biology and medical would be the only fields in which science is moving if leaps are able to be made.

[General Zod]

I don't think biology and medical would be the only fields in which science is moving if leaps are able to be made.

That's a rather optimistic assumption.

[Gaidin]

That's a rather optimistic assumption.

It's a fairly safe assumption. Research doesn't stop in other fields. Much less unethical research for a world like Marvel. Forget the idea that when something like a group like Fantastic Four comes up they always have their space station. Conveniently. Where does that come from? Out of someone's ass? No. Someone in STEM is doing something somewhere. SHIELD never stopped working on engineering even when they were a dark agency in MCU. Always having a nice solution on the level of a James Bond film. Nevermind the comics themselves where I can run a fairly easy google image search and find the Avengers running an attack on a god damn space station under a villains control.

This stuff doesn't just pause in other fields just because Biology and Medical is the one hitting the breakthrough.

[General Zod]

That's a rather optimistic assumption.

It's a fairly safe assumption. Research doesn't stop in other fields. Much less unethical research for a world like Marvel. Forget the idea that when something like a group like Fantastic Four comes up they always have their space station. Conveniently. Where does that come from? Out of someone's ass? No. Someone in STEM is doing something somewhere. SHIELD never stopped working on engineering even when they were a dark agency in MCU. Always having a nice solution on the level of a James Bond film. Nevermind the comics themselves where I can run a fairly easy google image search and find the Avengers running an attack on a god damn space station under a villains control.

This stuff doesn't just pause in other fields just because Biology and Medical is the one hitting the breakthrough.

The problem is you're assuming the best case scenarios in every instance. What's stopping the military from taking control of the technology, classifying it and making sure the general population never hears about it until super-soldiers are on every corner?

[Gaidin]

The problem is you're assuming the best case scenarios in every instance. What's stopping the military from taking control of the technology, classifying it and making sure the general population never hears about it until super-soldiers are on every corner?

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I said research doesn't stop just so researchers can watch Luke Cage be Luke Cage with their jaws dropped while going "Wow why didn't we think of THAT even though we're probably maybe in totally different fields?!". I didn't make a god damn claim in the world what those funding it would try to do with it. Get your shit straight and don't strawman or red herring me sir.

[General Zod]

So now that I've finished episode 10 . . . I noticed some interesting subtext in the plot going on.
Spoiler

When Misty's attacked she's told to suck it up and focus her priority on investigating Luke, but when an old white beat cop gets killed, everyone loses their collective shit and starts turning Harlem inside out.

[Darth Yan]

This honestly is the same answer as to why Peter Parker didn't try to save his dying friend in ASM2. Nicholas Flamel from Harry Potter is just as heroic, as discussed in this thread. It boils down to it being better to not try to make the world better, for fear of the worst happening because a medicine could be held by the elite.

No, here's the thing. Immortality held only by the elite is the best case scenario. This is a "pick your dystopia" scenario.

Immortality for all would be catastrophic. With no more death from old age we would overrun the resources of the planet far far faster than we are already doing, and with everyone super strong and almost invulnerable the steps required to stop desperate people from trying to take food or increasingly scarce resources would be immensely destructive, worsening the problem. That's cataclysm within at most two generations.

Immortality without equally massive changes in resource availability would exacerbate every social problem humanity has.

Luke Cage burning down hospitals and medical research facilities to deal with the excess population it is.

Best to keep mankind as low and unadvanced as possible and prevent there from being any positive change from all the weird advances and powers happening in the MCU. It's not as if they also could have Arc Reactors powering their cities, SHIELD designed space vehicles to colonize the solar system and beyond, and/or shrinking technology to greatly enlarge resources and get rid of waste.

And even if all that wasn't possible due to the Accords, Tony Stark prefers to keep his toys, some of the science is just lost, it was already established that Judas rounds can do the trick if someone wants to conquer the world using their superstrength and invulnerable skin. Not to mention that humanity is already dealing with the cataclysm of Inhumans popping out of the woodwork everywhere and aliens are thinking Earth is the new tourist hotspot.

I guess it's better to ensure that the cure for cancer or HIV is never found(which was the doctor's stated motivation) than possibly having the capability to change the world(even as its rapidly changing already).

Not what he's saying. IF everyone is immortal and wouldn't die we would be wiped out. There's nothing wrong with curing diseases but making everyone immortal won't work

[PREDATOR490]

Reached Episode 5.

At this point I think it is beyond silly that these series keep attempting to be ambiguous about the continuity with the rest of the Marvel Movies but they want to try and have their cake and eat it by directly referencing it. Daredevil and Jessica Jones can be justified as going under the radar due to their low key activities but Luke Cage literally getting his face plastered on the news and filmed using super strength blew that kind of justification into orbit.

It is going to be extremely silly for Luke Cage to be completely ignored by SHIELD or the Accords after he is being very public about his abilities. If Tony Stark literally went out of his way to headhunt Spiderman, it is questionable for Luke Cage to go unnoticed for long.

As for the series itself - Fair enough but it feels very meagre. Its supposed to be telling the story at street level - I get that but when the first episode name drops Hammer Industries from Iron Man 2 and is throwing around rocket launchers on the street, that kind of escalation is going to shoot past street level exceptionally quickly.

[General Zod]

I wager Claire is going to ask Matt to see about clearing Luke's name. I imagine Shield is going to start knocking on his door after that.

[Knife]

Only about 4 in, it's ok. Unless something picks up really quick, it'll go to 'meh' for me. Pretty basic plot, pretty 2 dimensional characters. Cottonmouth is so a stereotype, as is Pop. I'm watching this because of Jessica Jones and the Luke Cage character was well written, but so far it's just ok.

[bilateralrope]

Luke Cage's little temper tantrum and smashing up of the lab might ensure that he stays the only one with perfect health and immortality. So it seems that he was saying less "Experimenting on prisoners is wrong" and more "No one can be immortal but me!". Which is understandable in a meta-sense, as it makes the Marvel world less relateable if the scientist really did cure cancer or HIV, but it makes Luke Cage into kind of an asshole.

The experimentation was not voluntary. The fight rings were the first part of the experimentation. Luke didn't get a choice about participating, so I'd expect that other prisoners were also forced to fight.

Then comes sticking someone into the tank. If a prisoner forced into fighting is offered a choice between continuing to fight or taking part in medical experiments, I wouldn't call that voluntary. Certainly not informed consent to the medical experimentation. I doubt the prisoners got that much choice. We didn't see any prisoners who had refused the tank, which suggests that any who refused the first offer were then forced into the tank.

All we have about the benefits of the experiments to the general public is the word of a doctor who was forcing prisoners into medical experimentation. I don't trust him to be telling the truth. I really don't trust his superiors who we know nothing about beyond their involvement in highly illegal and unethical medical experimentation.

Everything we saw looks more like a private organisation trying to figure out how to produce its own super soldiers.

Reached Episode 5.

At this point I think it is beyond silly that these series keep attempting to be ambiguous about the continuity with the rest of the Marvel Movies but they want to try and have their cake and eat it by directly referencing it. Daredevil and Jessica Jones can be justified as going under the radar due to their low key activities but Luke Cage literally getting his face plastered on the news and filmed using super strength blew that kind of justification into orbit.

It is going to be extremely silly for Luke Cage to be completely ignored by SHIELD or the Accords after he is being very public about his abilities. If Tony Stark literally went out of his way to headhunt Spiderman, it is questionable for Luke Cage to go unnoticed for long.

I agree. Daredevil could be someone that takes SHIELD a while to identify. Jessica Jones is likely to get a visit from SHIELD, but that could have easily occurred off screen before or after the events of the series and isn't likely to extend beyond talking. So their lack of presence can be explained.

Luke Cage is a different matter. As soon as the video of him throwing the police around went viral, SHIELD should have sent a team to locate him. A team that would have identified itself to the police as soon as the hostage situation at the club started (probably with fake identification). Completely screwing over the plan to sell the police Judas rounds because SHIELD's team would have been willing to go in for free, immediately, risking their own lives instead of those of the SWAT team. While Judas rounds cost time and money and are asking the SWAT team to risk their own lives with ammunition that isn't proven to work against Cage. Ammunition they haven't had any chance to test for themselves.

[Joun_Lord]

Isn't Shield underground now, a small clandestine agency mostly focused on shit nobody cares about......I mean Inhumans? Aren't they a illegal agency now after getting outed as Hydra's conjoined twin?

But either way, the groups that worry about the Accords and dealing with meta-humans probably are going to go after Cage eventually. Currently they probably have bigger fish to fry, I going on the assumption this is set somewhere around Civil War, and probably aren't going to worry about people like Cage and Jessica who aren't that impressive all things considered. They are strong people but weaker then Captain America (probably). They seem pretty low end, not powerful or unique enough to recruit or consider a major threat. Cage might get on their radar by his abilities before Jessica but I think he'd be on the authority radar well before her just because of how public he is.

Daredevil.....I dunno. How well known is he? Criminals of course know of him and there is probably quite a few rumors but nothing really concrete. Tony Stark might know of him and who he is with whatever magi-tech he found out who Spiderman was but I don't even think there is any grainy videos of DD on the internet, I don't recall him getting on camera, for Tony to magic.

This is kinda what annoys me about this whole multimedia shared universe crap. To know exactly what factions and people are around I need to watch like a dozen movies, 5 series (though only 4 are worth watching in my factual opinion), a bunch of one off short films, comics, and marketing crap like in universe Youtube videos. That sort of bloat is not as bad as stuff like the old Star Wars universe and alot of comics as they atleast try to keep the different stuff of the MCU standalone with the exception of ensemble movies but still its annoying. Of course while I find it annoying I also whine and say DC should have done the same thing with their far superior television shows integrated in their not so great movie verse.

[General Zod]

Shield has gone back to being at least somewhat legitimate as of Season 4.

[PREDATOR490]

Reached Episode 5.

At this point I think it is beyond silly that these series keep attempting to be ambiguous about the continuity with the rest of the Marvel Movies but they want to try and have their cake and eat it by directly referencing it. Daredevil and Jessica Jones can be justified as going under the radar due to their low key activities but Luke Cage literally getting his face plastered on the news and filmed using super strength blew that kind of justification into orbit.

It is going to be extremely silly for Luke Cage to be completely ignored by SHIELD or the Accords after he is being very public about his abilities. If Tony Stark literally went out of his way to headhunt Spiderman, it is questionable for Luke Cage to go unnoticed for long.

I agree. Daredevil could be someone that takes SHIELD a while to identify. Jessica Jones is likely to get a visit from SHIELD, but that could have easily occurred off screen before or after the events of the series and isn't likely to extend beyond talking. So their lack of presence can be explained.

Luke Cage is a different matter. As soon as the video of him throwing the police around went viral, SHIELD should have sent a team to locate him. A team that would have identified itself to the police as soon as the hostage situation at the club started (probably with fake identification). Completely screwing over the plan to sell the police Judas rounds because SHIELD's team would have been willing to go in for free, immediately, risking their own lives instead of those of the SWAT team. While Judas rounds cost time and money and are asking the SWAT team to risk their own lives with ammunition that isn't proven to work against Cage. Ammunition they haven't had any chance to test for themselves.

Even Daredevil is kinda pushing into the kinda of territory that would get him noticed. I feel that the Marvel Universe is severely suffering from this one continuity by neglecting the cross over implications.
The time frame of Luke, DD or JJ remains unconfirmed except it is somewhere after Avengers 1. An event that happened in the same damn city these series are turning into their own playground.

Anyone with common sense would think that of all the cities to be a 'hero' in... New York is a fantastically bad idea to set multiple series in where you want to try and minimise continuity. The handwave of people still not believing things is getting extremely thin and rapidly runs short when numerous organisations are appearing to justify Origin stories or doing wacky shit.

At this point, Spiderman, JJ, DD and Luke Cage are running around the same city. A low key hero like JJ might fly by but an obvious cumulative effect that will occur if one city is becoming rampant with heroic individuals. Even if SHIELD or the Avengers consider these people unsuitable to join their teams, it is beyond stupid that these series can expect to operate in their own vacuum and still expect to claim they are in the same universe.

At minimum, DD, Spiderman, Punisher and Luke Cage stand to run into each other when Rocket Launchers are being fired by a random villain. Not to mention the inevitable clusterfuck of stepping on each other's toes when anything significant in the city occurs.

[General Zod]

Luke Cage happens after Civil War since they mention the Sarkovia accords. The cops also mention the Punisher, so we can safely assume it happens after Daredevil S2 also. So far the series are roughly happening in order of appearance.

[bilateralrope]

Isn't Shield underground now, a small clandestine agency mostly focused on shit nobody cares about......I mean Inhumans? Aren't they a illegal agency now after getting outed as Hydra's conjoined twin?

Hence the fake identification.

But either way, the groups that worry about the Accords and dealing with meta-humans probably are going to go after Cage eventually. Currently they probably have bigger fish to fry, I going on the assumption this is set somewhere around Civil War, and probably aren't going to worry about people like Cage and Jessica who aren't that impressive all things considered. They are strong people but weaker then Captain America (probably). They seem pretty low end, not powerful or unique enough to recruit or consider a major threat. Cage might get on their radar by his abilities before Jessica but I think he'd be on the authority radar well before her just because of how public he is.

Yes, they are low end. They are also easily located and thus any action regarding them can be taken quickly by a small team.
Also, Cage is acting very openly during the series. It looks like he is going around murdering cops, then taking hostages. That's the kind of incident that calls for a swift response. Even if it's just to show the public that they are safe from enhanced people.

[PREDATOR490]

Luke Cage happens after Civil War since they mention the Sarkovia accords. The cops also mention the Punisher, so we can safely assume it happens after Daredevil S2 also. So far the series are roughly happening in order of appearance.

I am aware that these series like to make token references so it appears they are in some sort of sync with the universe but outside of those references they rarely feel like they genuinely are. Agents of Shield had a good first season of actually making it feel like they were in the same universe but outside of that first season it pretty much nosedived into obscurity.

I do find it rather ironic that the DC series of Flash and Arrow are managing to pull the one universe concept off better. It already appears the Marvel Universe is straining under the weight of the amount of projects they are throwing around within a single universe. This is only going to get worse the more they keep throwing on until it collapses or they put more effort into maintaining the overall continuity.

[Broomstick]

Anyone trying to identify Daredevil is going to get thrown off by Matt Murdock actually being a blind man. What Daredevil does is not consistent with typical blindness and until you know that Murdock has enhanced senses and a type of radar/sonar the fact he is blind is going to keep throwing people off his trail.

[Khaat]

Matt's injured often enough for forensic evidence to link him incontrovertibly. (Holy crap that's a ten-dollar word!)

[General Zod]

Matt's injured often enough for forensic evidence to link him incontrovertibly. (Holy crap that's a ten-dollar word!)

First they'd have to provide a judge a good enough reason to give them a court order to DNA test a blind man.

[Broomstick]

Not just a blind man but a blind lawyer.

[Elheru Aran]

With the caveat that, should they start keeping an eye on him, the proliferation of injuries he tends to pick up on a regular basis would tend to raise some serious questions and cast his professionalism into a rather adversarial light should he try to go with a story like "I'm in a Fight Club" or some such silliness. His armor does help somewhat with that... but not entirely.

Out of curiosity-- I know it's slightly off subject, but how much time did the events in each season of Daredevil cover? The second season couldn't have been more than a few weeks' worth of time...

[Joun_Lord]

Shield has gone back to being at least somewhat legitimate as of Season 4.

Ahh, okay. So they can get back in the metahuman hunting ballgame. Not sure how much metahumans will be willing to trust them after the world found out they were Hydra-lite in their earlier iteration though. I know damn sure if I was a meta in universe I'd be inclined to try to defend myself if Shield rolled up on me.

Hence the fake identification.

Probably be the only way they can get shit done nowadays.

Yes, they are low end. They are also easily located and thus any action regarding them can be taken quickly by a small team.
Also, Cage is acting very openly during the series. It looks like he is going around murdering cops, then taking hostages. That's the kind of incident that calls for a swift response. Even if it's just to show the public that they are safe from enhanced people.

They are probably believed low enough end that agencies like Shield and the JCTC might leave it to locals to handle even if they present as a threat. Presumably they'd step up after SWAT and local police get their asses kicked by Cage but before then they probably saw no need.

the proliferation of injuries he tends to pick up on a regular basis would tend to raise some serious questions

He'd probably just use the excuse he did on the show, he's blind, he injures himself. Imagine anyone trying to go public or to court with that theory. Trying to imply a blind guy is a superhero because he's injured alot. Get laughed out of court or sued for libel or slander. Murdock has a good cover, nobody is really going to think its a blind guy and any injuries are easily chalked up to his blindness.