Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

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Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Archinist » 2016-09-04 09:32am

Just as the title says. Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany. WW2 Germany is in early WW2 and is not aware that they have been transported, even though all of their military equipment is strangely returned to Germany, even the units that were fighting outside Germany. "How most unusual!", they exclaim, but put it down to being a major command error.

However, unfortunately for the Americans, the American president is enjoying the infamous German strip clubs in downtown Berlin at the time of ISOT. He is not aware of the change, because the strip club stays exactly the same, except all the computers and modern technology disappears, except for anything the president brought with him. The president is also joined by 20 highly trained Marines, who are fully armed and supplied and extremely suspicious of everything 24/7.

It is the year early 2017.

What happens now? Does Germany conquer the world and complete the holocaust? Or are they effortlessly annihilated? What of the American president?

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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Iroscato » 2016-09-04 09:57am

So a nation with technology 75 years out of date, stripped of its allies and with all its armed forces back to square one, that couldn't even win the war in it's own time.
The armies of The Third Reich roll out triumphantly to conquer the world for the glory of Germany, and are soundly thrashed by surrounding nations in 8 minutes and 34 seconds. The President maybe dies, but in the grand scheme of things it makes not an arse-hair's of a difference.
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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2016-09-04 10:24am

Except that the entire world changes, as does our understanding of science, now that we know that it is possible to teleport a nation through time. As we have no idea how it happened, we must face the possibility that it could happen to any other nation at any time. Germany, modern Germany, is gone, along with its entire populace. Add to that that one of the foremost economies and political centres of Europe has vanished, with all its infrastructure and technology replace with obsolete material. Hitler and company are alive in the world again, which should make for some interesting trials, if they survive. And then if early WW2 Germany were transplanted into the present, the entire history of the world for the last seventy five years or so has been rewritten, with all the lovely paradoxes...
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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Tribble » 2016-09-04 10:36am

Well the first thing that happens is the UK saying "we told you so!" and invoking article 50 right away. :P

There's no chance of Germany winning this though they could cause quite a bit of damage; IIRC Germany at that time had a lot more troops and equipment mobilised than Germany does right now. Given that this is "early WW2" presumably they do not consider themselves to be at war with Russia or the USA, so their forces will be mostly concentrated against France.

It's doubtful the Germans would actually invade as that they would very quickly notice the sudden massive technological gap that they were facing. Even Hitler would quickly see the need to pause and assess the situation. The real question is whether or not the rest of the world would be able to de-Nazify Germany without having to invade, not whether or Nazi Germany will conquer Europe. Do you think that enough pressure could be brought to bear on Germany to get rid of Hitler and other Nazi officals without having to attack, or will Germany have to be conquered again?

Also, I would imagine that the EU will not survive having modern Germany literally swapped with WW2 Nazi Germany, and it'll be a race to see who heads for the exit.
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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2016-09-04 10:56am

What happens to any present-day foreign military forces present in Germany? I think the British Army still has some units based there as part of NATO, and the US might as well. Are they still there? If so, good luck to the Nazi Panzer formations trying to knock out a battalion of Challenger-2s.
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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Isolder74 » 2016-09-04 11:53am

Early WWII means no tanks heavier then a Panzer IV(and only 2 - 3 divisions of those) as then the main battle tank was the Panzer III and Panzer II. Panzers I's wouldn't even be able to deal with HUMVEE's.

This is very bad for the Nazis if they do attack anyone, even France. Attacking Belgium with get them curbstomped as in 2016 it means INSTANT WAR with USA and UK. Even a Panzer IV is going to be no match for a Striker or Bradley IFV with TOW's. The German Navy is DOA as soon as they try to start anything and knowing Hitler they will. Bismarck and Tirpitz and the rest are dinosaurs now, and their subs will not last long against even modern diesel subs and will be owned by nuclear subs. One US carrier task force is all we'd need to obliterate the Navy with their dry-docks and shipyards. Given things, the Royal Navy would probably get to that job first doing in them just as fast.

Even if they manage to grab/kill the POTUS they are screwed. Especially if they do the USA WILL OBLITERATE THEM ALMOST IMMEDIATELY. An angry USA is not something to discount. Nazi Germany would have no idea where all those B2 bombs are coming from and B-52's/B-1's will smash them to pieces. A-10's from France/UK make junk out of any Panzer that dares to drive anywhere.
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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Archinist » 2016-09-04 12:14pm

Isolder74 wrote:words
The rest of the world is also unaware of the changes, however, so Germany could literally just invade any country and that country will be wildly confused and for a very long time just assume that they are some strangely-equipped terrorists. So that means that Germany could quickly deploy hundreds of bombers to other European cities and blow them to oblivion and they won't even be aware that they're being attacked by an entire nation, and therefore won't have military response for quite some time. In a few days most European cities would have been bombed into dust, and no one could stop them, although once everyone wakes up the USA could probably take on Germany with assistance.

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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by AniThyng » 2016-09-04 12:35pm

There's no reason any European nation will not use their military's to counter any form of "terrorist attack" that involves literal bombing by vintage aircraft and Nazi cosplayers...

And seriously, how many bombing runs by the Luftwaffe do you think it took to destroy a city? No doubt the devastation would be unprecedented in modern times (in the west) but it would also simply escalate the response because the response is based on what, not "who" ( e.g. we don't care that they are cosplaying as Nazi's and have a huge supply of vintage planes, this means a military response no matter what )
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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Tribble » 2016-09-04 12:47pm

*sigh* and here I was just beginning to think we could have an interesting scenario, seeing as the most likely German response would have been to halt all offensives immediately given they would have noticed very quickly that the Allies had suddenly managed to get a 75 year leap in technological capability. It would have been interesting to see how we would have dealt with Hitler given that he would have almost certainly revert to being on the defensive and assessing the situation. Would we have had to invade Germany, or would we be able to put up enough pressure to put its leaders on trial and reform it? How would this impact the global economy? How would this impact the EU? How would it impact things culturally, to have a WW2 era Germany bakc in the mix of things? What would happen to things like the power grid, stock exchange and internet given a good chunk of it was suddenly ripped out? Would Russia want to get at Germany via Poland, or would it be content in letting Western Europe and the USA deal with it? What would be the Israeli response? Etc etc

All interesting questions, and yet Archinist you seem intent on ignoring all of this and focus purely on "those crazy Nazis try to go on a killing spree" which is both the least interesting and the least plausible scenario given that the early ww2 era Germany don't remotely stand a chance against a modern army...

Anyways...
The rest of the world is also unaware of the changes, however
Not stated in your original post, and moving the goalposts is an acknowledgment that the Germans have no chance in your original scenario. Besides which, how could they not been aware of Nazi Germany's swap, given that modern Germany suddenly disappeared and you have a whole bunch of ww2 era Nazis in their place? The sudden loss of technological equipment alone would it immediately obvious that something had gone terribly wrong given how interconnected our tech is these days. Not to mention the fact that, you know, Hitler will be the one answering the phone? That's kind of hard to miss. And no doubt many people would have had the swap recorded via video.

Germany could literally just invade any country
I'll agree that Germany would be in a positon to invade, if they were say swapped right before their invasion in 1940. However it would become immediately apparent that something major had transpired (all those jumbo jets and modern vehicles driving around would be the first clue) and even Hitler wouldn't be stupid enough to launch an all out invasion when it becomes clear his country is suddenly 75 years behind the times.
and that country will be wildly confused and for a very long time just assume that they are some strangely-equipped terrorists.
While there may be some confusion, having what appears to be several divisions of ww2-era Nazis invading your country is going to provoke an immediate and overwhelming response. It doesn't matter if the government believes they are a group of Neo-Nazis instead of actual Nazis, the result will be the same: the Nazis will inevitably be beaten, and probably very quickly. The only real question is how much collateral damage there will be in the process.
So that means that Germany could quickly deploy hundreds of bombers to other European cities and blow them to oblivion and they won't even be aware that they're being attacked by an entire nation, and therefore won't have military response for quite some time.
Germany never developed a strategic bomber force, and they certainly didn't have that capability in the early years of the war. Between that and modern aircraft / anti-aircraft capabilities, the Luftwaffe will be blown out of the sky long before they are able to do any serious damage to a country's infrastructure.

And again, why wouldn't they be aware that the Germans are attacking? Are the people in your scenario so stupid that they could literally see millions of German troops and their equipment pouring into their borders and shooting everyone in sight and assume it wa a parade? It doesn't matter whether the people know its real Nazi's or Neo-Nazis or terrorists, having a large scale attack of that magnitude is going to provoke an immediate response. Also, satellites would reveal pretty quickly what was going on.
In a few days most European cities would have been bombed into dust, and no one could stop them, although once everyone wakes up the USA could probably take on Germany with assistance.
The Luftwaffe would get blown out of the sky long before they are able to cause serious damage, Nato and Russia are more than capable of stopping them, and the USA probably wouldn't even have to get involved (though having them around would certainly speed things up).

As for the US president, he could be in a good positon to figure out how things stand and get the Germans to stand down before they do something stupid.

Your original scenario was fine, as it left many things open-ended. Your revisions are quite frankly stupid.
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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Highlord Laan » 2016-09-04 12:59pm

Archinist wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:words
The rest of the world is also unaware of the changes, however, so Germany could literally just invade any country and that country will be wildly confused and for a very long time just assume that they are some strangely-equipped terrorists. So that means that Germany could quickly deploy hundreds of bombers to other European cities and blow them to oblivion and they won't even be aware that they're being attacked by an entire nation, and therefore won't have military response for quite some time. In a few days most European cities would have been bombed into dust, and no one could stop them, although once everyone wakes up the USA could probably take on Germany with assistance.
Than the third reich gets maybe a few hours of headstart, at which point it's going to be over in a couple days, tops. If they try to invade France, they get a couple hundred miles in due to surprise, then the French military and the Foreign Legion tear their balls off and smash their way to Berlin with near total impunity. I wonder, how many Panzers a new LeClerc can blow sky high in a single run? I'd assume a full ammo loadout's worth.

Additional fun: The re-arrival of Nazi Germany will make Israel go fucking apeshit.
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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Solauren » 2016-09-04 01:03pm

Can you imagine the effects if Hitler went 'okay, hold on, stop all plans. WTF is going on?' and war is avoided?

Most of WW2-Germans now have living descendants out in the world.
Hell, there are ex-nazi's out in the world and still alive.

Imagine the impact of that!

Now, think about the political implications.

This is a Germany transported before they alot of their crimes were committed. Imagine the implications of trying Hilter for crimes he didn't yet commit in his time-frame? Hell, you could argue that while this is Hitler, it's not OUR Hitler, as history has not been changed.
This WW2 Germany probably from a alternate time-line, and could be considered refugees.
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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Highlord Laan » 2016-09-04 01:07pm

Solauren wrote:Can you imagine the effects if Hitler went 'okay, hold on, stop all plans. WTF is going on?' and war is avoided?

Most of WW2-Germans now have living descendants out in the world.
Hell, there are ex-nazi's out in the world and still alive.

Imagine the impact of that!

Now, think about the political implications.

This is a Germany transported before they alot of their crimes were committed. Imagine the implications of trying Hilter for crimes he didn't yet commit in his time-frame? Hell, you could argue that while this is Hitler, it's not OUR Hitler, as history has not been changed.
This WW2 Germany probably from a alternate time-line, and could be considered refugees.
Hitler's hands, and those of the Nazi Party, weren't exactly clean in 1940. By that point the Holocaust was getting rolling, Poland had fallen, and France was getting pounded. Which is another wrinkle for the time displaced scum. Poland isn't exactly going to be happy that the Reich is back. If the Nazis make another move, I don't think the Poles would just sit back. What this time travel fuckery just did was hand most of Europe one of it's deepest revenge fantasies on a plate.

I'm more interested in whats happening back in the WWII timeline, where Nazi Germany was just replaced with Modern Germany.
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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Archinist » 2016-09-04 01:11pm

But how will Germany realise what has happened? The idea of an ISOT is so unbelievable and that idea will not cross anyone's mind for a very long time. All the Germans will see is strangely-designed plastic/metal cars and every civilian walks around with a long-range radio thing with annoying flashy lights on it.

The modern vehicles will just look like material-efficient vehicles and the Germans will assume they discovered a new way of more efficiently producing vehicles. I mean, modern cars still make engine sounds, still break down, still have 1 person driving it with the same controls, still have lights attached to them, etc etc.

How will the modern world tell the difference from the Luftwaffe and normal civilian planes? They could deploy just a dozen or so to each major city, which could probably cause massive damage to the city before they run out of bombs and go back to Germany. Germany could also deploy 10,000 ground troops to each major European city, where they could run in, firing madly and killing everyone and blowing everything up and quickly retreat after just a few hours. 6 hours should be enough to cause massive damage to the average city, and then fall back to Germany.

They could just use MGs and napalm to slaughter everyone in the streets/buildings and blow up all the very obvious infrastructure centers of the modern cities. It would be a massacre, the cities have nothing except lightly armed police (sometimes VERY lightly armed) and that's actually all. Then they could quickly run away before a response was summoned.

They had passenger planes in the 1940s, so much larger jets wouldn't be too mind-blowing, they're just civilian aircraft so they wouldn't think much of it at first. They might experiment on the advanced engines once they realised they're fairly more advanced than the usual planes, and they might be able to boost their technology a little.

The satellites would just reveal less city lights on the Germany area. Plus, scientists and analyzers would never never, EVER think about a sci-fi scenario such as an ISOT. In the end they would probably just think that modern Germany's government went insane and they somehow used advanced technology and lots of slaves/clones to reverse the nation of Germany back to WW2 and made a bunch of WW2-Germany clones using old DNA and something like that.

It is hinted in the original post that most of the modern world is not aware of the change, as the president is still exactly where he was before.

Well, that's what the first unposted post said anyway. I forgot that this post was edited a bit and those details were removed.

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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Tribble » 2016-09-04 01:19pm

I'm more interested in whats happening back in the WWII timeline, where Nazi Germany was just replaced with Modern Germany.
First thing they'd probably do is quickly assess the situation and once they realise they are in the past they would probably start diplomatic negotiations immediately. As the Allies will quickly discover that modern Germany is completely different than the country they were just facing, they would probably be willing to put an end to the hostilities.

Funnily enough this would put Germany in a moral dilemma, as they would now be by bar the most progressive, democratic, and economically developed nation by far. They would essentially become the world leaders overnight without having fired a single shot. What exactly would they do, particularly with Stalin?
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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Simon_Jester » 2016-09-04 01:41pm

Archinist wrote:But how will Germany realise what has happened? The idea of an ISOT is so unbelievable and that idea will not cross anyone's mind for a very long time. All the Germans will see is strangely-designed plastic/metal cars and every civilian walks around with a long-range radio thing with annoying flashy lights on it.
Yes, and that is not normal. The point is, they will not know exactly what is going on, but they will know something is going on.

Real people do not react to a very new situation by doing exactly the same thing they would do in a normal situation. Exactly how they react may depend, but they react.

This is why other people keep calling you dumber than Broomstick's parrots. In your scenarios, you seem not to have theory of mind. Theory of mind is very important for not seeming stupider than an animal, because all humans who are not insane have it, and most animals do not. Theory of mind is about being able to understand that other people have minds of their own, and that they act on the knowledge they have. They do not act randomly. They do not just do whatever you feel like saying they will do. They act like real, intelligent people, who are not dumber than a parrot, would act.

So again, people react to changes.

If the Nazis saw a bunch of very efficient cars and trucks replace all the 1930s cars and trucks they are used to, AND NOTHING ELSE CHANGED, they would react. They might react by saying "Hurray! We now have vehicles we can drive farther without depleting our limited supply of gasoline!"

But if the Nazis see different cars and trucks, AND all the people are dressed strangely, AND there are all sorts of devices they don't recognize, AND everyone they talk to thinks the Nazis were defeated seventy years ago, AND all the newspapers read "Month-uary Something, 2017" for the date...

THEN they will react by thinking that something very strange is going on, and they probably need to sit down and think twice about how they're going to carry out their plans, or whether their plans even make any sense anymore.

Do not try to come up with an excuse or some complicated one-in-a-billion coincidence to explain away this fact. If you do, you are merely giving people more reason to think that you do not actually understand that other people are people, with brains. In which case they will continue to think you are dumber than a parrot.
How will the modern world tell the difference from the Luftwaffe and normal civilian planes?
You may not know this, but some people read books. If you read enough books, you will know what Luftwaffe planes look like. You will also know what normal civilian planes look like. Just because you do not know a thing, does not mean nobody knows a thing.

In fact, never assume other people don't know some basic fact about the world. The list of facts other people know is probably longer than the list of facts that you, personally, can even imagine.
They could deploy just a dozen or so to each major city, which could probably cause massive damage to the city before they run out of bombs and go back to Germany.
You may not know this, but some people read books. People who read enough books know that a dozen or so World War Two planes cannot cause "massive damage" to a city. They cause a lot of damage compared to, say, one car bomb exploding. But not enough to stop cities from defending themselves. Not even close.

In fact, the bombs exploding might be doing people a favor in a way. A few bombs exploding tells people they are under attack, and that they need to be vigilant. And soldiers will know what is going on very quickly (because people handling disasters use radios).
Germany could also deploy 10,000 ground troops to each major European city, where they could run in, firing madly and killing everyone and blowing everything up and quickly retreat after just a few hours. 6 hours should be enough to cause massive damage to the average city, and then fall back to Germany.
The ten thousand soldiers would get stuck in traffic, or soldiers with helicopters would attack their vehicles. Many European cities cannot even be reached by driving for a few hours from the German border. The German soldiers would not be mistaken for clowns or re-enactors or whatever dumb excuses you invent for why everyone would magically ignore them. Because real people are not dumber than a parrot.
They could just use MGs and napalm to slaughter everyone in the streets/buildings and blow up all the very obvious infrastructure centers of the modern cities. It would be a massacre, the cities have nothing except lightly armed police (sometimes VERY lightly armed) and that's actually all. Then they could quickly run away before a response was summoned.
All the European nations have soldiers. Their soldiers are well armed and have vehicles that move much faster than anything the Nazis had to transport soldiers. Like helicopters. Have you heard of a helicopter?

Also, the Nazis did not have napalm. The Americans invented napalm, in large part so it could be dropped on Nazis.
They had passenger planes in the 1940s, so much larger jets wouldn't be too mind-blowing, they're just civilian aircraft so they wouldn't think much of it at first. They might experiment on the advanced engines once they realised they're fairly more advanced than the usual planes, and they might be able to boost their technology a little.
If the Nazis are going to try and fight everyone, they will not last long enough for any change in their technology to matter. They will get squashed into Nazi Jell-O. Especially by the Russians. The Russians have a lot of soldiers and they do not want to be invaded by Nazis again because the last time that happened about one Russian out of every seven or eight Russians alive died.

The Russians will crush the Nazis, even if everyone else is too stupid and lazy to do anything because they are people in an Archinist scenario and are therefore dumber than a bunch of parrots. Because even if the Russians were dumber than parrots, they would still fight Nazis.
The satellites would just reveal less city lights on the Germany area. Plus, scientists and analyzers would never never, EVER think about a sci-fi scenario such as an ISOT.
You are dumber than a parrot. Many scientists are readers of fiction stories. They may not believe the things in fiction are likely to happen, but they can imagine them very quickly.
In the end they would probably just think that modern Germany's government went insane and they somehow used advanced technology and lots of slaves/clones to reverse the nation of Germany back to WW2 and made a bunch of WW2-Germany clones using old DNA and something like that.
Except that the modern German government DISAPPEARED, it is nowhere to be found, and no person from modern Germany can be found. So maybe it was magic and maybe there was some secret conspiracy among the modern Germans and it DOES NOT MATTER. What matters is that there are Nazis to deal with, and everyone will deal with that very quickly and worry about exactly how it happened later.

Just like if your house is on fire, you worry about how it wound up on fire later. For now, you worry about putting out the fire, or escaping the burning building. You do not stand around drooling and going "durr my house can not be on fire that only happens in stories..."

Well okay, maybe YOU do. But nobody else would.
It is hinted in the original post that most of the modern world is not aware of the change, as the president is still exactly where he was before.
The modern world will remain unaware of the change for about five minutes. The modern world will probably figure out what has happened faster than the Nazis will, because they have much faster communications, and TV, and can send each other videos of Nazis running around. Whereas the actual Nazis do not have such advanced technology, and will have to do things like type up reports and put them in airplanes, or use big clunky complicated radios, or send telegrams to Berlin.
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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Tribble » 2016-09-04 02:09pm

Simon _Jester congrats on beating me to the punch... but please don't insult the parrots :P

In addition to what Simon_Jester said, you do realise that modern satellites are fully capable of scanning pretty much the entire electromagnetic spectrum? Spotting something like a WW2 German divison on the march would be trivially easy even if it were entirely marching under the cover of darkness and things like heavily forested areas. There's no way the Germans won't be instantly spotted, and once they are spotted there will be a response because anyone with a working brain would recognize the fact that a division of troops marching into his/her country is not a good thing, and must be stopped immediately.

Also, it would be pretty easy to distinguish the German military vehicles from civilian ones - swastika-carrying tanks and aircraft going around attacking people is going to quickly attract attention.

In a way I do appreciate Archinist's ability to double-down on his stupidity, it's not often we get people who's response to criticism is to make the scenario even more absurd than before. At least it makes my posts look saner in comparison :P
Last edited by Tribble on 2016-09-04 02:18pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by bilateralrope » 2016-09-04 02:14pm

Archinist wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:words
The rest of the world is also unaware of the changes, however, so Germany could literally just invade any country and that country will be wildly confused and for a very long time just assume that they are some strangely-equipped terrorists. So that means that Germany could quickly deploy hundreds of bombers to other European cities and blow them to oblivion and they won't even be aware that they're being attacked by an entire nation, and therefore won't have military response for quite some time. In a few days most European cities would have been bombed into dust, and no one could stop them, although once everyone wakes up the USA could probably take on Germany with assistance.
Are you forgetting about radar ?
Archinist wrote:How will the modern world tell the difference from the Luftwaffe and normal civilian planes?
The number of planes flying in a group.
The lack of a transponder.
The fact that they are still flying after everything other than military air traffic has been ordered to land.
The path they flew on radar.

The satellites would just reveal less city lights on the Germany area.
Are you forgetting that satellites can take photos during the day ?

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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Tribble » 2016-09-04 02:18pm

The number of planes flying in a group.
The lack of a transponder.
The fact that they are still flying after everything other than military air traffic has been ordered to land.
The path they flew on radar.
Also the fact that they will have German ww2-era insignia and will be bombing / strafing people. In fact it doesn't matter if they are recognized as Luftwaffe or not as they will attacked the moment it becomes apparent that they are hostile.
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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Archinist » 2016-09-04 02:20pm

The Nazis don't just 'run around' making racist German noises with burning napalm sticks setting every single Jewish person on fire like they do in parody movies. There will no direct way of telling a Nazi from a normal person without getting very close.

TVs existed in the 1940s as well, plus they had radio and modern communications like telephones as we do. The only thing they lacked is the noisy signal tower radios with flashing lights, but those aren't all that useful anyway.

It will still take a while to figure everything out. What if the power plants in Germany were attacked by terrorists simultaneously, and that's why everything is a bit out of whack?

Most people were about the same clothing as they did in the 1940s, jeans, long skirts, hats, shirts, etc. The only difference is that modern clothes are usually slightly skimpier and more revealing than 1940s ones, so the religious groups might freak a bit for a while, but most people will just think that the temperature was suddenly raised quite a bit in Europe or something.

A Nazi tank could probably mission kill a modern tank if it hit it's rear armor, or even it's side armor on the lesser MBTs like the T-70s and other Russian things. Plus their artillery could definitely kill a modern American MBT and so could their mines. So it wouldn't be completely one-sided after all.

How will the civilians and modern world see the planes? They are not equipped with magical laser eyes, and the planes will be flying very high. The planes will come and annihilate 5 or so major skyscrapers which collapse and kill tens of thousands of people, plus poisoning other people with toxic dusts and gases and cripple that city's economical systems/trading systems. Then they leave. The end. I mean if 2 modern passenger planes can destroy 2 skyscrapers than WW2 bombers should also be able to do that.

The Nazis defeated 70 years ago could VERY EASILY be government propaganda/brainwashing to calm people down, and the government could have even invented a fake date so that it makes the lie believable.

The borrowed news helicopters and police choppers could be shot down by small arms, and it's not like 1 guy with a rifle could do much damage anyway. He wouldn't even be able to hit anything on moving chopper at 100+ meters. Nothing compared to thousands of soldiers with bombs, flamethrowers and machine guns appearing from the RURAL areas, NOT the highways for god's sake and flooding through the city streets, stabbing and shooting at literally everyone and everything, then blowing up the important buildings and disappearing.

A group of 10 soldiers could probably kill at least 1,000 civilians, and there are 10,000 soldiers with light armored vehicles and armored cars and towable artillery.

Less lights, less buildings. It would still take at least a week to realise something has happened.

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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by bilateralrope » 2016-09-04 02:24pm

I wonder how easy it will be to get Hitler to believe the size of nuclear arsenals that various countries have without anyone using one.
Tribble wrote:
The number of planes flying in a group.
The lack of a transponder.
The fact that they are still flying after everything other than military air traffic has been ordered to land.
The path they flew on radar.
Also the fact that they will have German ww2-era insignia
Why would anyone get close enough to them to look at the insignia ?

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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Archinist » 2016-09-04 02:36pm

I mean I realise that of course they will be militarily defeated unless a treaty is signed eventually but I believe they will be do innumerable amounts of damage and horror before this happens. I mean, I'm only posting ideas of how the Germans could lightning-strike the other nations to deal as much damage as possible, that's all. I'm not saying that they would win as in "conquering the world" or anything.

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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Simon_Jester » 2016-09-04 02:58pm

Archinist wrote:The Nazis don't just 'run around' making racist German noises with burning napalm sticks setting every single Jewish person on fire like they do in parody movies. There will no direct way of telling a Nazi from a normal person without getting very close.
Nazi soldiers will be wearing World War Two German uniforms. You will literally be able to identify them from miles away.

German civilians from this era will speak German with a strange dialect, and will be totally ignorant of modern customs and society and culture. You will know they are not normal Germans immediately.
TVs existed in the 1940s as well, plus they had radio and modern communications like telephones as we do. The only thing they lacked is the noisy signal tower radios with flashing lights, but those aren't all that useful anyway.
You are too stupid to figure out how a cell phone can be a useful tool, or the difference between 1940 TV and modern TV. This does not mean real people who are as smart as a parrot (or smarter than a parrot) are that stupid.
It will still take a while to figure everything out. What if the power plants in Germany were attacked by terrorists simultaneously, and that's why everything is a bit out of whack?
That would not explain anything that is going on and it is incredibly unlikely.

Did you not even hear me the last time I said this?

Stop even trying to come up with dumb, one-in-a-billion chances that could magically explain away why you have people acting incredibly stupid. It is a mistake. A pointless, foolish thing that makes you look like a pointless fool.
Most people were about the same clothing as they did in the 1940s, jeans, long skirts, hats, shirts, etc. The only difference is that modern clothes are usually slightly skimpier and more revealing than 1940s ones, so the religious groups might freak a bit for a while, but most people will just think that the temperature was suddenly raised quite a bit in Europe or something.
You are dumber than a parrot. The detailed styles of clothing are different, and even if they were not, it would be obvious to everyone that you are dealing with people who have never heard of cell phones, who think the Soviet Union is still a thing, who think a "computer" is a guy who sits down with a pencil and a piece of paper and does calculations for a living, and so on.

Just because you are too stupid to notice things like this, doesn't mean hundreds of millions of people all over Europe are equally stupid.
A Nazi tank could probably mission kill a modern tank if it hit it's rear armor, or even it's side armor on the lesser MBTs like the T-70s and other Russian things. Plus their artillery could definitely kill a modern American MBT and so could their mines. So it wouldn't be completely one-sided after all.
1940 German tanks cannot do any of this and would require insanely lucky hits to damage any modern tank. Moreover, all modern armed forces including random infantry guys have weapons that can blow up World War Two tanks from so far away that the World War Two guys may never even realize they are being targeted. Sure, some soldiers might die in battle if the battles were even fought. But the casualty rates would be so lopsided that the Nazi Germans' army would surrender because they know they cannot possibly win, and are dying in huge numbers before they even figure out where the enemy is and how they are magically building missiles that home in on tanks and blow them apart from ten miles away.
How will the civilians and modern world see the planes? They are not equipped with magical laser eyes, and the planes will be flying very high. The planes will come and annihilate 5 or so major skyscrapers which collapse and kill tens of thousands of people, plus poisoning other people with toxic dusts and gases and cripple that city's economical systems/trading systems. Then they leave. The end. I mean if 2 modern passenger planes can destroy 2 skyscrapers than WW2 bombers should also be able to do that.
Actually not necessarily, because being hit with a couple of five hundred pound bombs is probably not as damaging than having a whole jetliner crash into your building and slice through it and dribble thousands of liters of burning jet fuel all over it.

Also, a lot of bombs dropped will simply miss and land hundreds or thousands of meters away from where they are supposed to, plus World War Two planes had huge problems with just plain getting lost and bombing the wrong targets.

Read a book. Learn some things. Stop pretending you know what will happen. You are totally ignorant of how basic things work in real life, or in history.
The Nazis defeated 70 years ago could VERY EASILY be government propaganda/brainwashing to calm people down, and the government could have even invented a fake date so that it makes the lie believable.
All this brainwashing cannot be magically happening right away. What are you even thinking now? You are imagining that these things can just happen by people magically flipping a switch. Or rather, you are imagining that other people are stupid enough to believe this.

You do not have a theory of mind. You do not understand that other people are thinking humans.

You are dumber than a parrot.
The borrowed news helicopters and police choppers could be shot down by small arms, and it's not like 1 guy with a rifle could do much damage anyway. He wouldn't even be able to hit anything on moving chopper at 100+ meters. Nothing compared to thousands of soldiers with bombs, flamethrowers and machine guns appearing from the RURAL areas, NOT the highways for god's sake and flooding through the city streets, stabbing and shooting at literally everyone and everything, then blowing up the important buildings and disappearing.
You are stupider than a parrot.

Soldiers have their own helicopters. Some of the helicopters have missiles and cannons and bombs and will attack from above. Others will land soldiers in places the Nazis have not yet reached, so that those soldiers can set up ambushes and dig in their heavy weapons to attack the Nazis when they show up.

The soldiers will not borrow helicopters from the police and the news. They don't need to.

You are stupider than a parrot.
A group of 10 soldiers could probably kill at least 1,000 civilians, and there are 10,000 soldiers with light armored vehicles and armored cars and towable artillery.
Your creepy disgusting fantasies about monsters and evil people murdering random civilians that magically made too stupid to run away or fight back aside...

The large groups of soldiers cannot move as fast as they would like, and they will be targeted by military weapons. They will not reach the cities they are moving toward, they will not be able to kill everyone in those cities or even many people in those cities. They will be resisted in a variety of ways, including mundane stuff like people parking cars on the streets in their path. Long before they can retreat, they will be attacked by soldiers and aircraft armed with weapons they cannot resist. Their artillery and other such weapons will be destroyed, captured, or both. They themselves will die or be captured.
Less lights, less buildings. It would still take at least a week to realise something has happened.
Just because you are too stupid to understand when a whole country instantly changes overnight, doesn't mean other people are.
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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Tribble » 2016-09-04 03:24pm

Archinist wrote:The Nazis don't just 'run around' making racist German noises with burning napalm sticks setting every single Jewish person on fire like they do in parody movies. There will no direct way of telling a Nazi from a normal person without getting very close.
Funny, that's pretty much you were describing with German troops going into cities and to try and cause as much mayhem as possible. Whether or not they are recognized as Nazis doesn't matter - any large group of people that going around attacking things, let alone divisions with military grade equipment, is going to attract a lot of attention and treated as a threat that needs to be put down immediately.
TVs existed in the 1940s as well, plus they had radio and modern communications like telephones as we do. The only thing they lacked is the noisy signal tower radios with flashing lights, but those aren't all that useful anyway.
Some of what we have was literally science fiction back then - do you seriously believe that the Germans will simply ignore the fact that Europe has magically advanced to almost sci-fi era tech and the population is much, much larger than before. Do you think the Germans are so stupid that they wouldn't recognize things like the technological implications of a hand-held device that is a computer, telephone, calculator, watch, camera, video recorder, compass, flashlight, encyclopedia etc, and that such devices are so cheap and common place that pretty much civilian has one? As Simon_Jester pointed out, you seem to be under the impression that people are incapable of thinking and analysing the situation around them, and this is a flaw in almost all of your scenarios.
It will still take a while to figure everything out. What if the power plants in Germany were attacked by terrorists simultaneously, and that's why everything is a bit out of whack?
Satellite feed would almost immediately pick up the fact that Germany is suddenly much smaller and less tech advanced, there's no way all that infrastructure goes missing without anyone noticing. The fact that you will have the Nazi government making broadcasts and that all German troops are now equipped with ww2 era uniforms and tech will make it readily apparent that something drastic has just happened, if not precisely what. And if German troops start pouring over the border and shooting at people the response will inevitably be to stop them.
Most people were about the same clothing as they did in the 1940s, jeans, long skirts, hats, shirts, etc. The only difference is that modern clothes are usually slightly skimpier and more revealing than 1940s ones, so the religious groups might freak a bit for a while, but most people will just think that the temperature was suddenly raised quite a bit in Europe or something.
I wasn't aware that WW2 era German troops dressed in jeans, long skirts and hats. Are you seriously suggesting that people won't notice when the army invades?

Here is some typical modern clothing:


Image


And here is an early ww2-era german army uniform:


Image


Yes, I can definitely see how these guys won't be spotted, especially when they go around in tanks and aircraft killing people :roll:
A Nazi tank could probably mission kill a modern tank if it hit it's rear armor, or even it's side armor on the lesser MBTs like the T-70s and other Russian things. Plus their artillery could definitely kill a modern American MBT and so could their mines. So it wouldn't be completely one-sided after all.
Most early ww2-era german tanks would have trouble taking out an APC, let alone another tank. A lot of them weren't even equipped with anti-tank weapons. And they'd have no real response to things like helicopters, aircraft, tow-infantry, rockets, drones etc.

Plus, what happens when they run out of fuel? They won't be able to go far without provisions, and that's likely amongst the first things to be destroyed during a counter-attack.
How will the civilians and modern world see the planes? They are not equipped with magical laser eyes, and the planes will be flying very high.
It's called satellites, it's called radar, it's called video cameras... given the population and tech level in Europe in 2016, it's practically a guarantee that enough people will recognize that a major attack is happening an to respond to it (assuming the Germans attack of course, IMO its far more likely that it won't for reasons that Simon_Jester and I have already explained).
The planes will come and annihilate 5 or so major skyscrapers which collapse and kill tens of thousands of people, plus poisoning other people with toxic dusts and gases and cripple that city's economical systems/trading systems.
WW2 era bombing was notoriously inaccurate and unreliable, especially during the early parts of the war. Even assuming the Luftwaffe was able to hit a building and have the bomb explode, it's unlikely that they would destroy something the size of a skyscraper with a single run given their relatively small payload.
Then they leave. The end. I mean if 2 modern passenger planes can destroy 2 skyscrapers than WW2 bombers should also be able to do that.
Assuming you are referring to the WTC, those were 2 modern jumbo jets full of fuel that plowing into the buildings at full speed - that's much more powerful than any bombs the German airforce would be carrying. And even then the buildings survived long enough for the majority of people in them to escape (IIRC the majority of the deaths were people trapped above the impact site as all the stairwells had been wrecked).

As for the economic impact, there would be more impact due to psychological shock at having a Nazi Germany going around blowing things up than actual damage they could cause. There is just no way Nazi Germany could grind a modern European's country's economy into the ground via bombing, they are just too big. Again, Germany's war production actually increased during the allies bombing campaigns and their strategic airforce was far larger and with much bigger aircraft than anything Germany had at its disposal.
The Nazis defeated 70 years ago could VERY EASILY be government propaganda/brainwashing to calm people down, and the government could have even invented a fake date so that it makes the lie believable.
Sorry, what are you rambling on about here? You're saying that the rest of the world will just pretend that Nazi Germany being beaten the 1st time was just propaganda? Why would they do that, and what would that accomplish?
The borrowed news helicopters and police choppers could be shot down by small arms, and it's not like 1 guy with a rifle could do much damage anyway. He wouldn't even be able to hit anything on moving chopper at 100+ meters. Nothing compared to thousands of soldiers with bombs, flamethrowers and machine guns appearing from the RURAL areas, NOT the highways for god's sake and flooding through the city streets, stabbing and shooting at literally everyone and everything, then blowing up the important buildings and disappearing.
They will be spotted long before they hit major European cities, and by the time they have organised themselves into a fighting stance and invaded other powers would be getting ready to deal with them. Modern tech makes our response time much faster than the Nazis, and as Simon_Jester noted we would probably be aware of what's going on before the Nazis themselves do.
A group of 10 soldiers could probably kill at least 1,000 civilians, and there are 10,000 soldiers with light armored vehicles and armored cars and towable artillery.
10,000 soldiers marching towards a city is going to be spotted very quickly.

Btw, you do realise that at this point most of the German army still marched on foot and the majority of its vehicles were still horse-driven? That the Germans depended on rail for most of their transportation? There is no way the Germans would be able to move their troops quickly enough to catch anyone by surprise, they are going to be identified within minutes of starting their march. By the time they actually reach other major cities (assuming they reach them at all) a lot of their equipment / fuel would have already been destroyed.
Less lights, less buildings. It would still take at least a week to realise something has happened
.

It doesn't matter whether the rest of Europe realises exactly what happened or not because the response to what is clearly an invasion will be the same: stop it as soon as possible. Given modern tech, the German army cannot possibly hope to win, the only issue is how much collateral damage will occur before they are stopped.

You seem to have a recurring theme in your scenarios, which is that everyone is literally so retarded they will not respond in any meaningful way to their environment. Which is a shame, because your scenarios could be interesting without resorting to people being dumber than pet rocks.
I mean I realise that of course they will be militarily defeated unless a treaty is signed eventually but I believe they will be do innumerable amounts of damage and horror before this happens. I mean, I'm only posting ideas of how the Germans could lightning-strike the other nations to deal as much damage as possible, that's all. I'm not saying that they would win as in "conquering the world" or anything.
You're backtracking because that's exactly what you were implying with your original posts. If they decide to attack, after they kill some people and bomb some things, they will be curb-stomped. Hard.

If they don't attack things might get a bit interesting because that will give time for the implication of a Nazi-Germany and Hitler literally returning to the world time to sink in.
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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Tribble » 2016-09-04 03:57pm

Oh and btw, Germany's ww2 communications have long since been broken, so once anyone realises that they are dealing with a ww2-era Germany their communications will be read in real time, perhaps even faster than the Germans will be able to given our equipment. And merely changing the codes won't help since we solved the algorirthms required to break enigma during the war. How do you think Europe will respond to al lthose radio messages giving German troops orders to invade? And if the Germans catch on that they were being monitored, they would have to resort to the paper-messenger boy (and hope he doesn't get shot before he delivers the message). Good luck to them using that while every single soldier they faced would be using real time communciations with eachother and command.
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Re: Modern Germany is replaced by WW2 Germany...

Post by Simon_Jester » 2016-09-04 04:11pm

You could trivially build an app to crack German messages encrypted with Enigma. With a little effort, you wouldn't even need to know their decryption, just knowing how the machine works is enough and then you can use something like a spell-checker to figure out what grammatically valid options there are for what the message might mean.
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