SDN Discussion: Population & Social Issues in Harry Potter

[Elheru Aran]

This rather obscenely implies that Wizard colonists were displacing Wizard natives to establish their own polities, and possibly waging a parallel war of depopulation against them. After all, why would Wizard natives not use their powers to stem the wave of genocide creeping west across the continent, if not for the fact that they were being met by other Wizards?

Frankly there's little to say that Wizards haven't been as racist/imperialist as their Muggle brethren in the past. They seem relatively enlightened in the HP books, but those take place in the 90s, and even then there's still prejudice against non-human intelligent magical creatures.

Nobody ever really says the conquest of North America by the Europeans was a *good* thing, after all... (barring the usual shitheads of course)

There's no indication of race-based prejudice or gender-based prejudice being as powerful in the Wizarding World as the Muggle one, and much to contradict it. I mean, isn't the head of the American government in the fucking '20s supposed to be a black woman in the upcoming Fantastic Beasts movie?

Their world seems to mostly just care about species/magical heritage. Though I would theorize that the pure blood bigots might frown on homosexuality due to the importance of producing pure blood heirs to maintain the bloodline- hence Dumbledore's sexuality never coming up in the books.

And I dare say imperialist wars are probably frowned on because major conflict might draw the attention of Muggles.

I will note that prior to your last post I hadn't read the Pottermore material on Wizarding USA, which is helping expand my understanding of the current situation... so I'll happily consider that post of mine a wash.

[Kingmaker]

They seem relatively enlightened in the HP books, but those take place in the 90s, and even then there's still prejudice against non-human intelligent magical creatures.

More than just prejudice. Nonhumans are banned from owning/using wands (which goblins are apparently quite salty about) and Wizards have literal slavery.

[The Romulan Republic]

Another note on Wizarding warfare- I very much doubt that open warfare is the norm, due to the need for secrecy and the small scale of the society.

In any case, I'd say Potterverse magic, with its abundance of tracking, concealing, and mental manipulation magic, is more geared toward cloak and dagger shit than open battle.

The Battle of Hogwarts is almost certainly the exception, with most of the conflict (as we see in the series) being conducted by small numbers of covert operatives via assassination and mind control, with occasional duels and small skirmishes.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Yeah, I'm also reading the Pottermore stuff, and it does seem to be suggesting that a combination of Muggle-born wizards and immigrants are at least in part responsible for the demographics of Wizard USA - but this still doesn't really answer why it's named and structured that way. If Wizard USA was founded in the late 17th century, that's well ahead of a lot of the developments in civic and social philosophy in Europe that were necessary for the notion of a truly solvent constitutional republic like the USA to come together, wizarding or Muggle in origin.

In other words, if the demographics of various wizarding native tribes and confederations changed over time to the point where they where majority-white, like demographic changes among the South African political and financial class to black Africans over the past 20 years, that would be one thing; but this "Wizard USA" that pops up in the 1690's predates Thomas Paine entirely, and appears to just plop onto the map directly overtop of existing polities that, according to Pottermore, were actually welcoming and protective of wizards.

[Elheru Aran]

They seem relatively enlightened in the HP books, but those take place in the 90s, and even then there's still prejudice against non-human intelligent magical creatures.

More than just prejudice. Nonhumans are banned from owning/using wands (which goblins are apparently quite salty about) and Wizards have literal slavery.

Yesss... that's a whole mess of its own. The house-elf thing appears to be either somewhat unfashionable or the province of the elite; Hogwarts' appear to have come with the territory (though we don't ever see them from what I recall), Dobby is the Malfoys' and Kreacher was the Black family elf. Oh, and there was the Crouches' elf, forgot her name though. It's a somewhat perverted situation in which the elves almost entirely actually welcome their situation; perhaps magical gene manipulation to coerce subservience? Hermione is frankly the only person who seems to take the whole elf slavery situation seriously; Dumbledore is all 'well it sucks but it's how it is' pretty much.

Centaurs tend to keep to themselves, so that's one thing. They seem to have taken upon themselves, to some extent, the role of defending the magical forests and their creatures.

Goblins have a long relationship with wizards... but apparently they've had many revolts. They seem semi-autonomous to some degree (otherwise they wouldn't run places like Gringotts... but do they run it, or *own* it?). That reminds me-- do they ever mention Dwarves in HP?

What else... oh yeah, werewolves definitely get discriminated against, though perhaps for good reason (created by Dark Magic? Uncontrollably violent when transformed?). Giants are also disliked and marginalized.

Really 'marginalized' is a pretty good word to apply to these guys overall... they're not treated as equals for the most part when they do encounter wizards.

[The Romulan Republic]

Giants were subjected to outright ethnic cleansing- they were expelled from the country, into a remote part of the alps, and are nearly extinct by the time of the books.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Goblins have a long relationship with wizards... but apparently they've had many revolts. They seem semi-autonomous to some degree (otherwise they wouldn't run places like Gringotts... but do they run it, or *own* it?).

I really, really hope that I'm not the first person to realize, 15 years later, what the vile implications are behind a race of short, hunched creatures with long thin noses being depicted as having specially focused powers of gold-tending and non-standard magical abilities that don't conform to mainstream human society.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Goblins have a long relationship with wizards... but apparently they've had many revolts. They seem semi-autonomous to some degree (otherwise they wouldn't run places like Gringotts... but do they run it, or *own* it?).

I really, really hope that I'm not the first person to realize, 15 years later, what the vile implications are behind a race of short, hunched creatures with long thin noses being depicted as having specially focused powers of gold-tending and non-standard magical abilities that don't conform to mainstream human society.

No no. You are totally not the first person.

Just go ahead and say it. Jews. They are Jews.

On the other hand, JK Rowling has created a society that she absolutely knows is deeply deeply fucked up.

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah, I'm also reading the Pottermore stuff, and it does seem to be suggesting that a combination of Muggle-born wizards and immigrants are at least in part responsible for the demographics of Wizard USA - but this still doesn't really answer why it's named and structured that way. If Wizard USA was founded in the late 17th century, that's well ahead of a lot of the developments in civic and social philosophy in Europe that were necessary for the notion of a truly solvent constitutional republic like the USA to come together, wizarding or Muggle in origin.

In other words, if the demographics of various wizarding native tribes and confederations changed over time to the point where they where majority-white, like demographic changes among the South African political and financial class to black Africans over the past 20 years, that would be one thing; but this "Wizard USA" that pops up in the 1690's predates Thomas Paine entirely, and appears to just plop onto the map directly overtop of existing polities that, according to Pottermore, were actually welcoming and protective of wizards.

The problem here is that JKR never thought that far ahead when she was winding up Harry Potter, and now this new movie is coming out, so she's having to write it up in a hurry without bothering to take the time to reconcile the two different backgrounds. It might be edited in time; who knows.

Another note on Wizarding warfare- I very much doubt that open warfare is the norm, due to the need for secrecy and the small scale of the society.

In any case, I'd say Potterverse magic, with its abundance of tracking, concealing, and mental manipulation magic, is more geared toward cloak and dagger shit than open battle.

The Battle of Hogwarts is almost certainly the exception, with most of the conflict (as we see in the series) being conducted by small numbers of covert operatives via assassination and mind control, with occasional duels and small skirmishes.

I have little issue with this. The wiki notes that Voldemort and the Death Eaters did a lot of harassment of Muggle-borns and Muggles as well as trying to blackmail or manipulate the Ministry in the early days of the first War. Frankly a lot of it sounds like the IRA; targeted attacks, blowing up people and so forth. Take the framing of Sirius Black-- Sirius tracks down Pettigrew, Pettigrew blows up a bunch of Muggles and vanishes, the Ministry comes down hard on Sirius and has to throw around a bunch of Memory Charms.

That may in fact be part of why the Death Eaters were so feared-- they were unafraid to target Muggles, and knew that the Ministry would become exhausted trying to cover up their attacks, so it had to work extra hard to both prevent attacks and counter them when they did happen.

[Elheru Aran]

Goblins have a long relationship with wizards... but apparently they've had many revolts. They seem semi-autonomous to some degree (otherwise they wouldn't run places like Gringotts... but do they run it, or *own* it?).

I really, really hope that I'm not the first person to realize, 15 years later, what the vile implications are behind a race of short, hunched creatures with long thin noses being depicted as having specially focused powers of gold-tending and non-standard magical abilities that don't conform to mainstream human society.

No no. You are totally not the first person.

Just go ahead and say it. Jews. They are Jews.

On the other hand, JK Rowling has created a society that she absolutely knows is deeply deeply fucked up.

Wouldn't be the first time. Tolkien's depiction of Dwarves are basically the same. I suspect Goblins are mostly JKR's version of Dwarves since I don't recall them being mentioned anywhere else (probably to avoid evoking the 'oh that's just a basic fantasy trope' reaction) and they do pretty much many of the same things.

[Alyrium Denryle]

The problem here is that JKR never thought that far ahead when she was winding up Harry Potter, and now this new movie is coming out, so she's having to write it up in a hurry without bothering to take the time to reconcile the two different backgrounds. It might be edited in time; who knows.

That is pretty much what I expect it is, yeah. In-universe, they have Premonitions... yeah. Yeah that's it...

I have little issue with this. The wiki notes that Voldemort and the Death Eaters did a lot of harassment of Muggle-borns and Muggles as well as trying to blackmail or manipulate the Ministry in the early days of the first War. Frankly a lot of it sounds like the IRA; targeted attacks, blowing up people and so forth. Take the framing of Sirius Black-- Sirius tracks down Pettigrew, Pettigrew blows up a bunch of Muggles and vanishes, the Ministry comes down hard on Sirius and has to throw around a bunch of Memory Charms.

That may in fact be part of why the Death Eaters were so feared-- they were unafraid to target Muggles, and knew that the Ministry would become exhausted trying to cover up their attacks, so it had to work extra hard to both prevent attacks and counter them when they did happen.

That might actually be why the conflict got so bloody deadly. The Death Eaters did away with the convention of not letting muggles see them, and were willing to attack muggleborn wizards and the like in broad daylight in Trafalgar Square, or blow up a safehouse in central london without going inside. It makes their attacks much easier to execute, while stretching Ministry resources to their limit to cover it up.

[Elheru Aran]

Right; the Death Eaters fit the profile of a terrorist group pretty well. An extremist ideology, a willingness and ability to commit violence to promote that ideology, a charismatic leader who's unafraid to get his hands dirty... I suspect Rowling drew a lot of stuff from recollections of the IRA attacks in Britain, such as the Canary Wharf bombing and the mortar attack on Downing Street. If you removed the magical element from the attacks, and consider the dates (70s--90s) it could well describe IRA activity.

[TithonusSyndrome]

That is pretty much what I expect it is, yeah. In-universe, they have Premonitions... yeah. Yeah that's it...

That'd be a damn fine premonition to cause you to erase the political structures you've inherited and replace them with anything at all, forward-thinking or not. This is precisely why "Eurabia" conspiracy theories are bullshit - even if Muslims did become the majority ethnic group and voting bloc in Europe, they'd probably just stick with the existing political structure they'd come into rather than trying to rip everything up and start from scratch, just to stick their thumb in someone's eye.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, I'm also reading the Pottermore stuff, and it does seem to be suggesting that a combination of Muggle-born wizards and immigrants are at least in part responsible for the demographics of Wizard USA - but this still doesn't really answer why it's named and structured that way. If Wizard USA was founded in the late 17th century, that's well ahead of a lot of the developments in civic and social philosophy in Europe that were necessary for the notion of a truly solvent constitutional republic like the USA to come together, wizarding or Muggle in origin.

In other words, if the demographics of various wizarding native tribes and confederations changed over time to the point where they where majority-white, like demographic changes among the South African political and financial class to black Africans over the past 20 years, that would be one thing; but this "Wizard USA" that pops up in the 1690's predates Thomas Paine entirely, and appears to just plop onto the map directly overtop of existing polities that, according to Pottermore, were actually welcoming and protective of wizards.

That actually raises the possibility, since wizards came up with it first and something as specific as a somewhat democratic nation named the United States of America within the same region seems unlikely to happen twice by coincidence, that the Founding Fathers were in contact with, or even included amongst their number, wizards.

Or, given how isolationist MACUSA is, possibly Squibs (not sure how it is in America, with their more isolationist policies and the history around the issue, but I'm sure it was mentioned somewhere that in Britain, Squibs were often encouraged to integrate into the Muggle world, since they couldn't use magic).

Okay, calling it now- Ben Franklin was totally a Squib.

Edit: Hell, this needs to be a fan fic. Ben Franklin, notorious Squib, who became an inventor to try to replicate with technology the things he couldn't do with magic.

[Alyrium Denryle]

That is pretty much what I expect it is, yeah. In-universe, they have Premonitions... yeah. Yeah that's it...

That'd be a damn fine premonition to cause you to erase the political structures you've inherited and replace them with anything at all, forward-thinking or not. This is precisely why "Eurabia" conspiracy theories are bullshit - even if Muslims did become the majority ethnic group and voting bloc in Europe, they'd probably just stick with the existing political structure they'd come into rather than trying to rip everything up and start from scratch, just to stick their thumb in someone's eye.

Look, I am trying to square a circle here!

"So what should we name it?"

"Magical Congress of the United States of America"

"Wait, what?"

"We are just going to have to rename it in a few decades anyway, do you really want you or your children debating it in committee when the revolution comes?"

Remember, they dont necessarily have to adopt the political ideology. Just the name.

Alternatively, Wizarding culture in North America, especially after the depredations of the Scourers, might have just been more prone to nationalism and thinking of itself as a distinct entity from the mother country. Cross pollination from squibs would cause the direction of causality in this hypothetical to change direction.

[Elheru Aran]

...oy. I have a headache trying to reconcile the two now. It's been a lovely day of discussion, but I really must go attend to life now before I go to work. This was a good thought though and I'll be back during the weekend

[TithonusSyndrome]

Oh I know the name is weird, I don't dispute that or how square the circle is; but for my part I'm almost sort of galled at how the native wizarding polity or polities were apparently just wiped off the map and replaced with this new one. Surely there was a pan-American wizarding body before the Europeans arrived, or at least a small handful of regionally large ones? Why overwrite the indigenous political body at all, if you've come to be the majority demographic within it?

Incidentally, Pottermore doesn't comment on whether or not MACUSA covers Canada, so considering that wizards probably don't care about papist conspiracies or the Quebec Act, that's definitely something worth Rowling's time.

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh I know the name is weird, I don't dispute that or how square the circle is; but for my part I'm almost sort of galled at how the native wizarding polity or polities were apparently just wiped off the map and replaced with this new one. Surely there was a pan-American wizarding body before the Europeans arrived, or at least a small handful of regionally large ones? Why overwrite the indigenous political body at all, if you've come to be the majority demographic within it?

Why assume that?

Outside of America, Wizarding polities seem at least roughly as numerous as Muggle ones. Who's to say it wasn't the same in America?

Hell, who's to say that some of those polities didn't join the new USA on more equal terms than in the Muggle world?

Yeah, probably not, given that a condition for that would likely have been "sit by and let the Muggles exterminate or displace your people in the name of secrecy". But I can't say for sure.

Incidentally, Pottermore doesn't comment on whether or not MACUSA covers Canada, so considering that wizards probably don't care about papist conspiracies or the Quebec Act, that's definitely something worth Rowling's time.

Intersting possibility.

At the very least, since Ilvermourny is defined as a North American school, and is the only known one, and is near the Canadian border, it probably takes students from Canada (and possibly Mexico/Central America/the Gulf of Mexico/the Caribbean).

I'd also like to know if their was any wizard involvement in the Civil War.

I mean... read about McClealan's actions as a general and tell me that poor man wasn't under a Confundus spell.

[Elheru Aran]

Last note I swear:

It's also weird considering that politically the American colonies were a bunch of independently administered British colonies, on the same basis legally as the entirety of Canada. Is there any reason why HP-verse 'MACUSA' should have formed *before* the USA itself? Apart from Rowling being a nitwit, of course... (though I suppose the whole 'the Muggles took the name from us' line works to a degree)

[TithonusSyndrome]

Why assume that?

Because Pottermore says that MACUSA came into being in 1692. I'm pretty sure there was already an indigenous political entity there at the time, or many covering an area equal to several states or provinces if Aly's "supranational wizarding body unmoved by reordering of Muggle borders" theory holds true.

Again - why get rid of them at all in the first place? Why not just work with what you've come into, if you're the new majority demographic? Why bother founding this new entity, rather than just enacting the Statute of Secrecy without all the extra fuss? Native genocide or no, if wizards came to America and joined native tribes as Pottermore says they did, why not just carry on as before?

I don't know if I've mentioned that I'm First Nations or not, so I apologize if I come across like a dog with a bone here, but there is something uncomfortable about the way Rowling has chosen to handle this.

[The Romulan Republic]

Why assume that?

Because Pottermore says that MACUSA came into being in 1692. I'm pretty sure there was already an indigenous political entity there at the time, or many covering an area equal to several states or provinces if Aly's "supranational wizarding body unmoved by reordering of Muggle borders" theory holds true.

No, you misunderstand me.

I was asking about the apparent assumption that "...there was a pan-American wizarding body before the Europeans arrived, or at least a small handful of regionally large ones?", as you put it.

Other possible explanations come to mind- their being no separate hidden wizard societies among the indigenous populations, or Alyrium Denryle's theory, as you mentioned.

Again - why get rid of them at all in the first place? Why not just work with what you've come into, if you're the new majority demographic? Why bother founding this new entity, rather than just enacting the Statute of Secrecy without all the extra fuss? Native genocide or no, if wizards came to America and joined native tribes as Pottermore says they did, why not just carry on as before?

Fair question.

I would like to think that MACUSA was more a fusion of the cultures of the indigenous and European wizards, an EU-type of thing maybe, but that's likely wishful thinking.

I don't know if I've mentioned that I'm First Nations or not, so I apologize if I come across like a dog with a bone here, but there is something uncomfortable about the way Rowling has chosen to handle this.

Fair enough.

[The Romulan Republic]

One thing I do like is the differences in nomenclature between Wizarding Britain and America- "Nomaj" instead of "Muggle", MACUSA instead of the Ministry of Magic. Even some differences in laws and culture (although Ilvermourny is modelled deliberately in-universe on Hogwarts, in part).

[Alyrium Denryle]

Oh I know the name is weird, I don't dispute that or how square the circle is; but for my part I'm almost sort of galled at how the native wizarding polity or polities were apparently just wiped off the map and replaced with this new one. Surely there was a pan-American wizarding body before the Europeans arrived, or at least a small handful of regionally large ones? Why overwrite the indigenous political body at all, if you've come to be the majority demographic within it?

Incidentally, Pottermore doesn't comment on whether or not MACUSA covers Canada, so considering that wizards probably don't care about papist conspiracies or the Quebec Act, that's definitely something worth Rowling's time.

Actually, I have been thinking about that. Both issues, really.

Wiping out the native policy might not have been a thing. If you read what is on Pottermore, it looks like there was contact for a good long while before any colonization. The Statute of Secrecy might very well apply to Native American Wizards (it was international), in which case, they could probably avoid death at the hands of the White Man, but not intervene (magic does make them immune to smallpox). They were afterall having their own inter-tribe issues and their own witchfinders at the time. If they were exempt earlier, they may have adopted the Statute after puritans and Scourers were done. Eventually, they either merge with MACUSA, or have their own on-reservation governing bodies that are much smaller if they dont adopt the Statute, but maintain plausible deniability in order to protect Everyone from Muggle stupidity.

I suspect that MACUSA also covers Canada in its envelope for geographic reasons if nothing else.

I mean... read about McClealan's actions as a general and tell me that poor man wasn't under a Confundus spell.

LOL

[Alyrium Denryle]

To follow up.

The European colonization of America was bad. But imagine for a second the game-theoretical scenario.

Native american wizards are considering intervention. But they know that the A) the European muggles go fucking batshit if there is magic so unless their intervention is decisive, if they break secrecy Armageddon comes even faster, and B) that the European wizards fear this and will intervene to protect their own skins from their fellow europeans, thus canceling out their own Native intervention and covering everything up.

So any intervention is unlikely to be effective and actually costs their tribes in the end. So their best option is non-direct intervention.

Their indirect intervention (which may include help from European wizards, they were on friendly terms) might in fact be the only thing that saved any of their tribes. Healing magic disguised as poultices, protective fetishes, rain dances that work... that sort of thing. In the end, their tribes die to smallpox, which while Wizards can cure it, spreads too rapidly to save everyone when the wizard community has numbers as small as is apparent in the wizarding world.

[TithonusSyndrome]

The contact long before colonization leads me to believe that European wizards considered indigenous polities to be the legitimate equals of their own, and would have respected their territorial claims and sovereignty the moment they set foot in America. In this sense, European wizards aren't colonists, they're immigrants, even if they lived in colonial settlements. They would have seen the European colonies as temporary disruptions to the rightful territorial claims of the wizarding power, posing no challenge to the resident "supranational wizarding body" you propose that would be any different from any border being redrawn in Europe in their experience. No matter what the ethnic makeup of a given area may be, or which Muggle power plants a flag wherever, as far as the wizarding world is concerned there would have never been any discontinuity of government in their eyes; Wizards who emigrate to America are always immigrants, never settlers establishing new nations under colonial authorities.

If, as we see in the trailer for Fantastic Beasts, white Europeans come to outnumber everyone else in Wizarding America, this must mean that as you say, they managed to out-populate the natives. Assuming this change in the wizarding demographics of America took place while they fully respected the authority of the original polities, then by the time of MACUSA, white European wizards are already the ethnic majorities within the original tribes with all the power - no need to form any new government or nation. At this point, this is not about European wizards trying to convince Native American wizards of one thing or another, because wizards of European descent constitute the majority of the tribes they've immigrated to and have all the political power.

With this in mind, I don't really see the point of forming a MACUSA in order to pass the SOS, other than that Rowling has failed to reconcile the nature of her own universe with her reflexively Eurocentric frame of mind on early America.