SDN Discussion: Population & Social Issues in Harry Potter

[Elheru Aran]

Springing off the thread about creating a Wizarding army in Harry Potter, I thought it suitable to create a separate thread, and after the motion was seconded and thirded, here goes.

There are two issues that came up in the course of that thread, which weren't necessarily *directly* relevant once they started growing.

--Population of the wizarding world.

--How the wizarding society functions (or doesn't); a subsection of this could be discussion of the shortcomings of the Hogwarts educational system as seen in the books.

I'll start off with a quotation of a post that I wrote in that thread regarding the numbers of the student body at Hogwarts, which derived from an estimate up-thread that the wizarding population was likely ~20K to 30K people in the UK:

But the population issue does raise the question of how many magical kids *are* going to Hogwarts. If you've got ~20-30K wizards (full-blood, mixed, and one-offs like Hermione) in the UK, most of which are married or related to each other, and say... a generous one-quarter of that is kids... that's a *lot* more than we ever really hear about being at Hogwarts.

Let's see... a quarter of 20K is 5K... quarter of 30K is 7.5, so between 5,000-7,500 children. Hogwarts doesn't start till kids are ten, so let's be generous and halve that... call it ~3,000 children. Four Houses at Hogwarts, and each one is probably roughly equal in number (nobody ever says there are more Hufflepuffs than Gryffindors, for example), so call it 750 kids per house. Divide that by seven years, 100 (and change) kids per year per house, so that's ~400 new kids each year (and of course ~400, minus wash-outs, leaving at the end of their 7th year).

Again, that would be ~3,000 students at Hogwarts each year in total. Even knocking it down a bit to allow for a low birth-rate, it would still be between a thousand to two thousand. Rowling said a while ago that it's ~1 thousand, but neither the movies nor the books support that. One thousand would be plausible for what appears to be the wizarding world's equivalent of a large English private school like Rugby or Eton. Three thousand is stretching it rather farther than that.
http://www.beyondhogwarts.com/harry-pot ... warts.html

There are only ~20 teachers (minus the rotating cast of DATDA teachers and occasional guest-stars like Firenze) named, including the headmaster. If you don't count Filch and Hagrid, that's a couple less. Unless they've got time-travel shenanigans going on (not impossible) or there's a vast cast of unnamed teachers (also possible, but the series never says anything of the kind), that's simply not enough unless the students only visit each teacher for one class a week. Of course they're not covering more than a few subjects per year, but some subjects you repeat every year (DATDA, anybody?).

The books never really say that there are so many students at Hogwarts; certainly there aren't that many named students (with the caveat that odds are good that Harry wouldn't have known many kids outside his social circle of Gryffindor/Dumbledore's Army students and of course the books are largely from his viewpoint). There are a number of common-room meetings, and unless there's some serious spatial mindfuckery going, I don't see ~750 kids fitting into the Gryffindor common room for McGonnall to give them a lecture on how they're not supposed to go out at night or whatever. Maybe if she's speaking to each year in turn, but nonetheless.

If Rowling had ever said something like "well Hogwarts is just the best wizarding school in the UK, there are other schools that aren't as good but they're cheaper so more kids go there" that would have made all that much easier, but of course she didn't think it that far through. One explanation that does occur to me is that you have to qualify at a certain level of magical ability to enter Hogwarts, but the existence of Squibs who attended for some time before washing out disqualifies that (unless they were charity cases). If it's a financial thing-- unlikely given the Weasley family are dirt-poor but they manage to send every child to Hogwarts-- that would be another possible explanation. Last idea that occurs to me is that homeschooling is really popular among Wizarding families? I got nothing...

[The Romulan Republic]

On the topic of Hogwarts' population, I don't have the book on hand at the moment, but doesn't Lupin say in book seven when Voldemort makes Hogwarts attendance mandatory that even before then, most people attended Hogwarts?

Supplementary material from the Pottermore website also establishes a total of eleven major wizarding schools world wide, as I recall.

So I think we can rule out most of that deficit being made up by people homeschooling/attending other schools. Although it should be noted that it is possible for a wizard or witch (or at least a sufficiently wealthy one) to attend a foreign school- Malfoy was almost sent to Durmstrang according to book four, as I recall.

[Elheru Aran]

I did note as well that it's quite possible that a goodly number of wizarding families fled the UK during Voldemort's first reign of terror; this would explain a far lower student body at Hogwarts than existed in the past. There's occasional mention of disused classrooms and privies.

Finances aren't a reason for people to not attend Hogwarts; the Weasleys are pretty much dirt-poor, but every one of their kids has gone. Albeit they had to purchase uniforms and other school supplies, but presumably the Ministry of Magic covers the cost of tuition, room and board.

There may be eleven *major* wizarding schools... but are there *minor* schools? One would think that there would have been a mention somewhere of such a thing.

[The Romulan Republic]

Quoting off of Pottermore (this is Rowling's own writing, so its about as canon as anything outside a published book is going to get):

https://www.pottermore.com/collection-e ... ng-schools

There are eleven long-established and prestigious wizarding schools worldwide, all of which are registered with the International Confederation of Wizards. Smaller and less well-regulated institutions have come and gone, are difficult to keep track of, and are rarely registered with the appropriate Ministry (in which case, I cannot vouch for the standard of education they might offer). Anyone wishing to know whether there is an approved magical school in their region should address an owl enquiry to the International Confederation of Wizards, Educational Office.

To my recollection, only four schools are mentioned in the books- the three Triwizard Tournament participants of Hogwarts, Beuabatons, and Durmstrang, and a brief mention of a school in Brazil (now named as Castelobruxo), where one of the Weasleys had a pen pal.

[Elheru Aran]

Quoting off of Pottermore (this is Rowling's own writing, so its about as canon as anything outside a published book is going to get):

https://www.pottermore.com/collection-e ... ng-schools

There are eleven long-established and prestigious wizarding schools worldwide, all of which are registered with the International Confederation of Wizards. Smaller and less well-regulated institutions have come and gone, are difficult to keep track of, and are rarely registered with the appropriate Ministry (in which case, I cannot vouch for the standard of education they might offer). Anyone wishing to know whether there is an approved magical school in their region should address an owl enquiry to the International Confederation of Wizards, Educational Office.

To my recollection, only four schools are mentioned in the books- the three Triwizard Tournament participants of Hogwarts, Beuabatons, and Durmstrang, and a brief mention of a school in Brazil (now named as Castelobruxo), where one of the Weasleys had a pen pal.

To which I would add the American school... whatever the hell it's named... from Fantastic Beasts. Invermoray? Inverness? Something like that.

So, either the wizarding population is much smaller than we think, or there's a lot more alternative education going on than we are told.

EDIT: Or the other schools outside the UK are much larger and may have a pretty decent percentage of international students. Not impossible. We simply don't know enough.

[Alyrium Denryle]

In population.

We can actually get a conservative estimate for student body if we look at a Quidditch pitch in the films. I am assuming rough parity between the books and films because JK Rowling was so heavily involved in production.

There are (if my count is accurate, I cannot seem to find a really good shot with all the upright stands fully visible) 18 uprights, each contain from the looks of it around 36 people. The lower stands seat four deep (standing room), with rows of what look to be at least 40 (except for a double row of 80 on one side). That is a really low end figure because of the way the scenes are shot, I cannot actually count them, I can only really count a small section of one stand and try to figure out what portion it represents. I am assuming I see half the stand and counted 20. There are 17 of those, with the one double for 18. The upper stands seem to house staff and outside observers (mostly adults). So for our population estimate we will use fully packed lower stands.

That gives us a student body of ~3000 students.

Now, if we also assume that Wizarding Britain has the same demographics as Muggle Britain, the age range of students is around 12% of the total population. We will conservatively assume that Squibs and Muggleborns cancel each other out in terms of the demographics to make things easier.

That means the population of Wizarding Britain is around 25k wizards. Keep in mind that the population would have been sharply reduced due to the conflict with Grindelwald and the First Wizarding War.

To my recollection, only four schools are mentioned in the books- the three Triwizard Tournament participants of Hogwarts, Beuabatons, and Durmstrang, and a brief mention of a school in Brazil (now named as Castelobruxo), where one of the Weasleys had a pen pal.

My guess is that Beubatons covers Western Continental Europe, Durmstrang covers eastern europe including Russia, Hogwarts covers the British Isles and Ireland, you get Ilvermory covering North America (and thus being Huge), Castelobruxo covering Latin America (thus also being huge), another in Africa, one in Australia, and at least four in Asia. One covering Indonesia/Malaysia and Indochina, one covering Japan, another for China and Korea, and a fourth in India.

That arrangement would make the most geographic, historical, and cultural sense.

[The Romulan Republic]

Quoting off of Pottermore (this is Rowling's own writing, so its about as canon as anything outside a published book is going to get):

https://www.pottermore.com/collection-e ... ng-schools

There are eleven long-established and prestigious wizarding schools worldwide, all of which are registered with the International Confederation of Wizards. Smaller and less well-regulated institutions have come and gone, are difficult to keep track of, and are rarely registered with the appropriate Ministry (in which case, I cannot vouch for the standard of education they might offer). Anyone wishing to know whether there is an approved magical school in their region should address an owl enquiry to the International Confederation of Wizards, Educational Office.

To my recollection, only four schools are mentioned in the books- the three Triwizard Tournament participants of Hogwarts, Beuabatons, and Durmstrang, and a brief mention of a school in Brazil (now named as Castelobruxo), where one of the Weasleys had a pen pal.

To which I would add the American school... whatever the hell it's named... from Fantastic Beasts. Invermoray? Inverness? Something like that.

So, either the wizarding population is much smaller than we think, or there's a lot more alternative education going on than we are told.

EDIT: Or the other schools outside the UK are much larger and may have a pretty decent percentage of international students. Not impossible. We simply don't know enough.

Ilvermorny is the American school.

Rowling did state via the Pottermore stuff on Wizarding Schools that the largest school is Uagadou, in Africa. It apparently has students from all of Africa. So Hogwarts, at least, is not the biggest.

[Bedlam]

My guess is that Beubatons covers Western Continental Europe, Durmstrang covers eastern europe, Hogwarts covers the British Isles and Ireland, you get Ilvermory covering North America (and thus being Huge), Castelobruxo covering Latin America (thus also being huge), another in Africa, one in Australia, and at least four in Asia. One covering Indonesia/Malaysia and Indochina, one covering Japan, another for China and Korea, and a fourth in India.

How big would one school covering all of China and Korea be?

[Alyrium Denryle]

My guess is that Beubatons covers Western Continental Europe, Durmstrang covers eastern europe, Hogwarts covers the British Isles and Ireland, you get Ilvermory covering North America (and thus being Huge), Castelobruxo covering Latin America (thus also being huge), another in Africa, one in Australia, and at least four in Asia. One covering Indonesia/Malaysia and Indochina, one covering Japan, another for China and Korea, and a fourth in India.

How big would one school covering all of China and Korea be?

Fucking Huge. Most likely it would have satellite campuses rather than one location, but who knows? Wizards can contort space-time.

[Elheru Aran]

That gives us a student body of ~3000 students.

Now, if we also assume that Wizarding Britain has the same demographics as Muggle Britain, the age range of students is around 12% of the total population. We will conservatively assume that Squibs and Muggleborns cancel each other out in terms of the demographics to make things easier.

That means the population of Wizarding Britain is around 25k wizards. Keep in mind that the population would have been sharply reduced due to the conflict with Grindelwald and the First Wizarding War.

That lines up with what I calculated as well, with the caveat that I was straight-up spitballing for the most part

I was under the impression that the conflict with Grindelwald was an European affair, though. It's obviously a heavy parallel with WWII-- Grindelwald is educated at Durmstrang (and expelled, which makes one wonder), comes to Europe and befriends Dumbledore, then goes back to Europe and sets up some kind of magical reign of terror similar to Voldemort's before Dumbledore knocks him off. I'm not sure how much it directly affected the British wizarding society; frankly the books are simply not very clear on anything that doesn't directly affect that small slice of the world immediately preceding and during Harry Potter's life.

[The Romulan Republic]

I can only find information on seven major canon schools via Pottermore:

Beauxbatons-France.
Castelobruxo-Brazil.
Durmstrang-Northern Europe (the location is apparently secret).
Ilvermorny-US (New England I think).
Mahoutokoro-Japan.
Uagadou-somewhere in Africa (also apparently secret).
Hogwarts-Scotland.

So that leaves four that are location unknown, unless I'm missing something.

Edit: Population and the dispersal of the above schools suggests most or all of those four are in Asia. Although its possible that some cultures homeschool much more than Britain- in fact I seem to recall reading something to that effect somewhere.

[Kingmaker]

(As a general aside, I think it's worth noting that HP's worldbuilding is pretty haphazard, and I strongly suspect Rowling was mostly making it up as she went along and without a great deal of concern for consistency or plausibility. That's never stopped us before, though).

--

This is because the wizarding populations of most countries choose the option of home schooling. Occasionally, too, the magical community in a given country is tiny or far-flung and correspondence courses have been found a more cost-effective means of educating the young.

So there you have it. If there isn't a wizarding school, you get an ad hoc education from parents/relatives or a degree from the University of the Order of the Phoenix. I have to wonder how these populations account for Muggle-born wizards, since they don't have any institution for integrating them.

It also may be, given the pseudo-fictional nature of the link, that the author is being snooty about schools with lesser pedigree or accreditation. It's hard to believe there would be any kind of elitism in the HPverse wizarding community, but it's something to keep in the back of your mind.

We will conservatively assume that Squibs and Muggleborns cancel each other out in terms of the demographics to make things easier.

Is that conservative, or just convenient?

[Elheru Aran]

Durmstrang, I thought, was more likely to be in Eastern Europe; Kakaroff seems somewhat Slavic, and Krum is Bulgarian IIRC.

But again, if you're dealing with larger populations, it's quite possible if not nearly certain they have multiple campuses under the same name, if only to make travel less onerous/difficult for people from more distant areas. It also bears noting that Hogwarts is itself in a somewhat inaccessible region (Scottish Highlands?) for purposes of concealment; the other schools either have to be heavily charmed along the lines of Diagon Alley or similarly isolated.

^ @ Kingmaker:

That would seem to settle the matter to some degree, then.

I would imagine that most muggle-born Wizards/Witches simply don't ever have the opportunity to develop their powers; Hermione is a special case. It seems that magical powers tend to develop in late childhood, more or less parallel with the onset of puberty, and if they don't catch it in time, they just kinda wither on the vine and future generations either wash out the gene or turn into Squibs.

The comment on homeschooling also reflects how magic is often considered to be something of an insular, native tradition; each country, or even subdivisions such as tribal groups within countries, will have their own brand of magic, passed on through oral tradition and hands-on experience. It's possible IMO that magic as practiced in, for example, the Congo might have little resemblance to magic as practiced in the US, which might be closer to the British tradition.

And, as wizarding society seems to be extremely conservative to a nearly pathological degree, even though the British tradition has the veneer of modernity, at its core it's very little removed from medieval arcane mysticism. In light of that, the 'wilder' magical traditions of other cultures might be on a more even footing.

[Khaat]

So the Ministry(/parallel elsewhere) would be responsible for a) detecting and b) recruiting emergent wizarding kids. These would read on the same system the Ministry has to detect Underage Wizardry, be determined to be not-yet school-aged kids, and swept into whichever method is used. Is there a draft? Is it first come, first served? Clearly legacy comes into play, especially for the prestige schools.

[The Romulan Republic]

Durmstrang, I thought, was more likely to be in Eastern Europe; Kakaroff seems somewhat Slavic, and Krum is Bulgarian IIRC.

So they probably take people from across a fairly wide region- Britain to Bulgaria at a minimum.

On the other hand, both Malfoy (nearly attended) and Krum might be special cases. Malfoy because his family is loaded and his father and Durmstrang's headmaster are old terrorist buddies, and Krum because schools like to recruit star athletes.

But again, if you're dealing with larger populations, it's quite possible if not nearly certain they have multiple campuses under the same name, if only to make travel less onerous/difficult for people from more distant areas.

Nothing to confirm or contradict that to the best of my recollections.

Although as Alyrium Denryle mentioned, wizards do have means of crossing great distances quickly.

It also bears noting that Hogwarts is itself in a somewhat inaccessible region (Scottish Highlands?) for purposes of concealment; the other schools either have to be heavily charmed along the lines of Diagon Alley or similarly isolated.

From Pottermore, off the top of my head, Uagadou and Durmstrang are both in secret locations, and Castelobruxo is charmed to look like a ruin to Muggles like Hogwarts.

^ @ Kingmaker:

That would seem to settle the matter to some degree, then.

I would imagine that most muggle-born Wizards/Witches simply don't ever have the opportunity to develop their powers; Hermione is a special case. It seems that magical powers tend to develop in late childhood, more or less parallel with the onset of puberty, and if they don't catch it in time, they just kinda wither on the vine and future generations either wash out the gene or turn into Squibs.

Not sure what that's based on.

Also, wizards have an active incentive to train Muggleborns so accidental magic doesn't cause breaches of the Statute of Secrecy. And there's no reason to believe that the level of anti-Muggleborn bigotry in Britain is global, as far as I recall.

And for that matter, Hermione isn't that unusual for Britain- their were quite a few Muggleborn students at Hogwarts.

The comment on homeschooling also reflects how magic is often considered to be something of an insular, native tradition; each country, or even subdivisions such as tribal groups within countries, will have their own brand of magic, passed on through oral tradition and hands-on experience. It's possible IMO that magic as practiced in, for example, the Congo might have little resemblance to magic as practiced in the US, which might be closer to the British tradition.

I believe there's some basis for this being true, to an extent at least, on Pottermore.

And, as wizarding society seems to be extremely conservative to a nearly pathological degree, even though the British tradition has the veneer of modernity, at its core it's very little removed from medieval arcane mysticism. In light of that, the 'wilder' magical traditions of other cultures might be on a more even footing.

No comment on that.

[Alyrium Denryle]

That gives us a student body of ~3000 students.

Now, if we also assume that Wizarding Britain has the same demographics as Muggle Britain, the age range of students is around 12% of the total population. We will conservatively assume that Squibs and Muggleborns cancel each other out in terms of the demographics to make things easier.

That means the population of Wizarding Britain is around 25k wizards. Keep in mind that the population would have been sharply reduced due to the conflict with Grindelwald and the First Wizarding War.

That lines up with what I calculated as well, with the caveat that I was straight-up spitballing for the most part

I was under the impression that the conflict with Grindelwald was an European affair, though. It's obviously a heavy parallel with WWII-- Grindelwald is educated at Durmstrang (and expelled, which makes one wonder), comes to Europe and befriends Dumbledore, then goes back to Europe and sets up some kind of magical reign of terror similar to Voldemort's before Dumbledore knocks him off. I'm not sure how much it directly affected the British wizarding society; frankly the books are simply not very clear on anything that doesn't directly affect that small slice of the world immediately preceding and during Harry Potter's life.

Consider the timing. It was WWII. Imagine for a moment what a dark wizard could do in Muggle society. Mind-fucking an Austrian-Born German corporal for example. Subverting the population to your Dark Will. At that point, he is a threat to Britain, and Wizarding Britain, and much like muggle Britain got involved in WW2, Wizarding Britain would have had to as well. Winston Churchill would have had Auror bodyguards just to make sure Wizard Nazis did not apparate into his office and Imperius him.

The same with WWI really (though we dont know the history there).

So there were successive demographic shocks.

WWI, an entire generation decimated (potentially)

WW2, an entire generation decimated.

Skip a generation

Leaving you with Wizarding Britain in the 1980s. Successive demographics shocks have left positions in society open for the first time ever. It is a bit like the power shift after the black death. The power of the ruling class has been turned upside down, and all of the sudden Muggleborns are numerous (because they arise out of the general muggle population) are gaining positions of power, and eroding the traditional power dynamics of the pureblood ruling class. A new Dark Lord comes, offering them a return to (absolute, rather than their paltry relative) power!

First Wizarding war, an entire generation decimated.

So many Muggleborns are dead, but because the legal system in wizarding Britain is completely fucking useless, most of the death eaters maintain their pre-war positions of power until the day the Dark Lord returns!

Second Wizarding War, an entire generation decimated.

It also may be, given the pseudo-fictional nature of the link, that the author is being snooty about schools with lesser pedigree or accreditation. It's hard to believe there would be any kind of elitism in the HPverse wizarding community, but it's something to keep in the back of your mind.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Both Wizarding Wars were basically BECAUSE of elitism.

Is that conservative, or just convenient?

It requires me to make the smallest number of mathematical assumptions.

[The Romulan Republic]

So the Ministry(/parallel elsewhere) would be responsible for a) detecting and b) recruiting emergent wizarding kids. These would read on the same system the Ministry has to detect Underage Wizardry, be determined to be not-yet school-aged kids, and swept into whichever method is used. Is there a draft? Is it first come, first served? Clearly legacy comes into play, especially for the prestige schools.

Hogwarts seems fairly egalitarian in who it takes- only Slytherine seems to give a damn about heritage. Though to some extent that might be due to Dumbledore being Headmaster- Lupin mentions that it was Dumbledore who let him come to Hogwarts despite being a werewolf in book three.

I would like to know how they handle Muggleborns who refuse to attend school (or rather, whose parents refuse)- memory wipe and keep a close eye on them in case of accidental magic most likely, but I could see some less scrupulous factions using nastier methods, from mind controlling their guardians into consenting (for that matter, didn't Dumbledore do something like that to the staff at Riddle's orphanage?) to outright killing them.

This would particularly be an issue in old wizarding America, since they were apparently way more isolated from Muggles, with intermarriage being illegal.

[Alyrium Denryle]

So the Ministry(/parallel elsewhere) would be responsible for a) detecting and b) recruiting emergent wizarding kids. These would read on the same system the Ministry has to detect Underage Wizardry, be determined to be not-yet school-aged kids, and swept into whichever method is used. Is there a draft? Is it first come, first served? Clearly legacy comes into play, especially for the prestige schools.

Hogwarts seems fairly egalitarian in who it takes- only Slytherine seems to give a damn about heritage. Though to some extent that might be due to Dumbledore being Headmaster- Lupin mentions that it was Dumbledore who let him come to Hogwarts despite being a werewolf in book three.

I would like to know how they handle Muggleborns who refuse to attend school (or rather, whose parents refuse)- memory wipe and keep a close eye on them in case of accidental magic most likely, but I could see some less scrupulous factions using nastier methods, from mind controlling their guardians into consenting (for that matter, didn't Dumbledore do something like that to the staff at Riddle's orphanage?) to outright killing them.

This would particularly be an issue in old wizarding America, since they were apparently way more isolated from Muggles, with intermarriage being illegal.

They took Harry decidedly without any sort of consent from his aunt and uncle.

I think in Britain at least, they dont require consent except for outside activities like going to Hogsmead. A magical education is the absolute birthright of wizard children, and the state (by which we mean the Ministry in conjunction with what portions of the Muggle government know about Wizards) has ensured that legally that is the case.

[Elheru Aran]

But again, if you're dealing with larger populations, it's quite possible if not nearly certain they have multiple campuses under the same name, if only to make travel less onerous/difficult for people from more distant areas.

Nothing to confirm or contradict that to the best of my recollections.

Although as Alyrium Denryle mentioned, wizards do have means of crossing great distances quickly.

True... but they tend to have to be familiar with where they're going, unless they're using a Portkey or flying devices/creatures. But that's an accurate point.

The downside though is that it gets harder to hide a truly massive school. Hogwarts itself is the size of a fairly small private American college, and it only serves the British Isles' small wizarding population. Countries like China or India could conceivably have schools that would be 10,000+ students strong.

^ @ Kingmaker:

That would seem to settle the matter to some degree, then.

I would imagine that most muggle-born Wizards/Witches simply don't ever have the opportunity to develop their powers; Hermione is a special case. It seems that magical powers tend to develop in late childhood, more or less parallel with the onset of puberty, and if they don't catch it in time, they just kinda wither on the vine and future generations either wash out the gene or turn into Squibs.

Not sure what that's based on.

Also, wizards have an active incentive to train Muggleborns so accidental magic doesn't cause breaches of the Statute of Secrecy. And there's no reason to believe that the level of anti-Muggleborn bigotry in Britain is global, as far as I recall.

And for that matter, Hermione isn't that unusual for Britain- their were quite a few Muggleborn students at Hogwarts.

It does strike comment though, so it's still *somewhat* unusual. Certainly there's potential for accidental magic, and I imagine they do keep a lookout to some degree, but how many cases of accidental magic get written up as "okay that was really damn weird, now get in the house, it's dinnertime" type wilful ignorance? The fact of the matter--IMO-- is that unless the Ministry of Magic of whatever country bothers to send an owl (or bat, or whatever) to drop off a letter telling people that their kid is coming to school, they're never going to know apart from a few That Was Weird moments.

So the Ministry(/parallel elsewhere) would be responsible for a) detecting and b) recruiting emergent wizarding kids. These would read on the same system the Ministry has to detect Underage Wizardry, be determined to be not-yet school-aged kids, and swept into whichever method is used. Is there a draft? Is it first come, first served? Clearly legacy comes into play, especially for the prestige schools.

This is a good point. I think there *has* to be some sort of system to assess who's going to school and who's not, especially in the bigger countries, especially after Wizarding Wars and what not when you get refugees going one way or another who want their kids to be properly educated. This, however, is primarily only an issue if the major wizarding schools are the *only* schools... and it's possible they may be. We don't hear anything along the lines of "well my Uncle Jim went to Avonlea Primary in Surrey, and now he's a Second Assistant Undersecretary in the Devices Branch of the Ministry, take that Hogwarts boy!" in the books.

Hogwarts doesn't have that issue given the lower population sending children in to be educated in the specific context we see it in, and we simply don't know enough about other schools, other countries' magical societies, etc. to make legitimate hypotheses about how those function.

[The Romulan Republic]

It should be noted, however, that Harry was a decidedly abnormal case- Hagrid says that Harry's name was put down before he was born or some such, presumably by his parents or at least with their knowledge, so that might override his current guardians' feelings (I would imagine that Lily and James would have made sure to ensure their son's education in the event of their deaths, especially since it was war time and they knew they were being hunted). Also, Dumbledore might have cut some legal corners, given Harry's critical role in the larger conflict with Voldemort, and at that point he likely had enough political clout to get away with it, even if any witch or wizard was inclined to object to making sure Harry Potter, the "Boy Who Lived" got his magical education.

For that matter, Hagrid might well have taken Harry on his own initiative, given the relative weight he gives to the Dursleys' opinions vs. Dumbledores'.

Anyway, on the subject of Wizarding government (for Britain, at least), this should be relevant to this thread:

https://www.pottermore.com/writing-by-j ... -for-magic

The Ministry of Magic was formally established in 1707 with the appointment of the very first man to hold the title 'Minister for Magic', Ulick Gamp.* The Minister for Magic is democratically elected, although there have been times of crisis in which the post has simply been offered to an individual without a public vote (Albus Dumbledore was made such an offer, and turned it down repeatedly). There is no fixed limit to a Minister's term of office, but he or she is obliged to hold regular elections at a maximum interval of seven years. Ministers for Magic tend to last much longer than Muggle ministers. Generally speaking, and despite many a moan and grumble, their community is behind them in a way that is rarely seen in the Muggle world. This is perhaps due to a feeling, on the part of wizards, that unless they are seen to manage themselves competently, the Muggles might try to interfere.

The Muggle Prime Minister has no part in appointing the Minister for Magic, whose election is a matter only for the magical community themselves. All matters relating to the magical community in Britain are managed solely by the Minister for Magic, and he has sole jurisdiction over his Ministry. Emergency visits to the Muggle Prime Minister by the Minister for Magic are announced by a portrait of Ulick Gamp (first Minister for Magic) that hangs in the Muggle Prime Minister's study in number 10 Downing Street.

No Muggle Prime Minister has ever set foot in the Ministry of Magic, for reasons most succinctly summed up by ex-Minister Dugald McPhail (term of office 1858-1865): 'their puir wee braines couldnae cope wi' it.'

Not quoting the full list of Ministers and their accomplishments, because its obviously rather long.

Edit: Since someone here mentioned WWI, the part on that conflict mentions that a lot of wizards got involved despite it being illegal. Thought that was relevant.

[Alyrium Denryle]

This is a good point. I think there *has* to be some sort of system to assess who's going to school and who's not, especially in the bigger countries, especially after Wizarding Wars and what not when you get refugees going one way or another who want their kids to be properly educated. This, however, is primarily only an issue if the major wizarding schools are the *only* schools... and it's possible they may be. We don't hear anything along the lines of "well my Uncle Jim went to Avonlea Primary in Surrey, and now he's a Second Assistant Undersecretary in the Devices Branch of the Ministry, take that Hogwarts boy!" in the books.

Hogwarts doesn't have that issue given the lower population sending children in to be educated in the specific context we see it in, and we simply don't know enough about other schools, other countries' magical societies, etc. to make legitimate hypotheses about how those function.

Well, most of the wizarding schools we know about cover the more or less civilized portions of the world. Even with far-flung geographic boundaries, if the Ministry of Magic can detect muggleborns (remember, there are low-level uses of magic in childhood, and the ministry CAN detect illegal use of magic by juveniles) then it stands to reason that the other Ministries (or equivalents) can as well. Likely through some sort of low-intensity high-coverage warding spell. China for example has had a well-developed bureaucratic state for millenia so there is no reason to think this was not copied by their Wizarding community very early.

It is only in the undeveloped regions (parts of Africa, uncontacted S. American tribes etc) that would have their own entirely indigenous magical traditions these days. And for them, magical kids would likely have been trained as shamans/medicine men etc. They would form the priest class in other words, and their magic would actually work. Hell, with their low populations, they are probably looking exclusively at single family lines for their shamans with the odd muggleborn being adopted into the priest class from time to time.

[Elheru Aran]

Oh, regarding magical schools. One of the four unknowns is [EDIT: IMO, should have said earlier] almost certainly in the Middle East; there's a long tradition of mysticism in that region (it is, after all, where three of the world's major religions originate). Perhaps in Iran ('Persia' if you want to be esoteric; now we have a good explanation for the 'Three Magi'...). You could have one massive school for China-Korea-Japan, one for India and surrounding countries, and one in northern Australia perhaps to cover Indochina, Indonesia and the Philippines.

EDIT2: But unless JKR says further, all this will have to be speculation, of course.

I wouldn't use Harry Potter as a typical example, that's for damn sure. His parents almost certainly had a special arrangement with Hogwarts via Dumbledore and their membership in the Order of the Phoenix, and the books seem to pretty much assume that the Dursleys have zero rights in regard to Harry apart from being protected by a charm from Lily. Sirius Black seems to have *some* rights, but only in a highly informal sense (being a fugitive from the law will do that). After his death... Harry is pretty much on his own.

And as far as Harry himself goes... he's good. He has a lot of talent, a lot of potential... but he mostly wastes it. He's a casual to lazy student, he relies on his natural proclivities rather than studying intensively to improve his abilities, and the only stuff he really bones up on is stuff that he's actually interested in. He gets a lot of boosts from his fame, but frankly, the only place where he's really got a leg up is raw ability; it's not worth much without actual training and study. Voldemort and Dumbledore are both out of his league in a big way.

Makes you wonder what the top tier of wizards really is like.

[The Romulan Republic]

There's a school for Japan already.

As to top tier, we see two top-tier wizards in action through much of the series- Dumbledore and Voldemort.

As to Harry- yeah, he's good when he tries to be, but not a top notch student.

He does, however, have pretty much the perfect talents for a natural duelist- great reflexes (though shitty eyesight might hold him back a bit, as he'd be largely helpless without his glasses) combined with a strong will/intense emotions (key to a lot of top tier magic). His only real weakness is an inability to control his emotions at times.

[Agent Sorchus]

I would like to raise the possibility that other magical traditions don't have the same type of schooling as England. Ie while there are only 10 other schools that take youth and are considered Hogwarts equivalents a wizarding tradition that trains people starting more at college age might be a major alternative that isn't very visible to people when talking about Hogwarts equivalent schooling.

Two quick rationales for considering this. First if the english are typical population desity of 25k per 60 million then the world would be expected to have upwards of 33 million hogwarts school equivalents! Secondly we hear of another potential school not one of the 11, the Salem Witch's Institute.

Honestly the population of the wizarding world is one of those things best left in the background before the story starts to look absurd.

[The Romulan Republic]

I would like to raise the possibility that other magical traditions don't have the same type of schooling as England. Ie while there are only 10 other schools that take youth and are considered Hogwarts equivalents a wizarding tradition that trains people starting more at college age might be a major alternative that isn't very visible to people when talking about Hogwarts equivalent schooling.

While the topic of their being other traditions has already been discussed, I very much doubt that any wizarding tradition would wait until college age to start schooling, as underage magic shows up very young and the longer you wait, the more risk their is of accidents, particularly breaches of the Statute of Secrecy.

Also, for Muggle borns, the older you wait before revealing magic to someone, the less likely they would generally be to believe it, I'd think.

Two quick rationales for considering this. First if the english are typical population desity of 25k per 60 million then the world would be expected to have upwards of 33 million hogwarts school equivalents! Secondly we hear of another potential school not one of the 11, the Salem Witch's Institute.

Sigh...

Their is, to my knowledge, absolutely zero canon evidence for the Salem Institute being a school. Zip. As far as I can tell, its a case of a fan idea/assumption propagating to the point that it is given actual weight, even when Rowling's own statements tell against it. There is no mention of it in her list of major schools, so unless its one of the four unnamed schools discussed above (unlikely, since of eleven world wide we already have one in that region) or it is very small, its not a school.

Keep in mind that "institute" could be anything from a school, to a hospital, to a research facility or think tank.

Honestly the population of the wizarding world is one of those things best left in the background before the story starts to look absurd.

Eh, I think you can probably explain away any discrepancies if you're sufficiently motivated.