Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

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The Romulan Republic
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Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I would be very hesitant to employ Unbreakable Vows at all, much less so broadly.

They are explicitly stated to kill if broken. To my knowledge, their is no mention of any loss of magic for breaking a vow in Potterverse lore.

To place a spell on every single professional soldier, much less members of a citizens' militia, that will kill them if they are disloyal or violate confidentiality (especially that last one, as it could happen by accident) is not only extremely draconian, its politically dangerous. Because it means that soldiers will potentially be physically unable to violate an order without dying if, say, they are ordered to commit war crimes.

Edit: It also means any infractions will be punished without judicial review to determine weather their are mitigating factors, and without any discretion as to sentencing.
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Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Zixinus »

How would you structure should an armed force? Again, what sort of threats would it have to face?

You probably want the military equivalent of a few things:
- Logistics and teleportation: stock of broomsticks, enchanted vehicles (perhaps made resistant to hostile magic) and military-use keystones? Plus stockpiles of magic-critical resources.
- Intelligence and divination: you need to know who they are fighting, spy-specialist plus counter-intelligence.
- Health and Potions: you want a stock of potions for combat use (healing, transforming, invisible potions, whatever) or be able to make them on short notice.
- Creatures: you have a limited wizards, you can compensate by using (and if necessary, breeding) creatures.
- Muggle: muggles fighters equipped with enchanted weapons (again, to compensate for limited wizard population), as well as support base for any muggle-tech that would be useful.
- Undead: there are vampires and ghosts mentioned. Perhaps they may be willing and could be put to use?
- Vault and watchers: there are all sorts of magically extremely powerful artifacts, places and creatures in the world that need to be secured, either to ensure the security of the nation (ie, magic superweapons or just things-better-left-alone are not accessible to idiots and fools, wizard or muggle). Plus ensure, if it is wise, that they are available for military use if necessary.

Does anyone have any other ideas?
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Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Elheru Aran »

The downside of creatures is that most of the HP creatures aren't *that* intelligent... Buckbeak, for example, might have been as smart as a dog. Useful as a backup, but definitely not something you want to rely on by itself. And when they're intelligent enough, then you're running into serious ethical problems.
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Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Zixinus »

Again, it depends on the situation. Horses are dumb and trusting enough to allow themselves to be led into a charge, into arrow storms and so on. Imagine what you could do with a dragon.

Not useful against wizards who probably have been taught how to handle such creatures, of limited use against armed muggles. But of some use. If the enemy is more substancial, like a fairy invasion or whatever, then they might be a resource that might be useful.

Again, it is a compensation. You can recruit and maintain a limited amount of wizards. There is however a substantial amount of Squibs and knowing muggles who may be both willing and able to assist otherwise.
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Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

The Romulan Republic wrote:I would be very hesitant to employ Unbreakable Vows at all, much less so broadly.

They are explicitly stated to kill if broken. To my knowledge, their is no mention of any loss of magic for breaking a vow in Potterverse lore.

To place a spell on every single professional soldier, much less members of a citizens' militia, that will kill them if they are disloyal or violate confidentiality (especially that last one, as it could happen by accident) is not only extremely draconian, its politically dangerous. Because it means that soldiers will potentially be physically unable to violate an order without dying if, say, they are ordered to commit war crimes.

Edit: It also means any infractions will be punished without judicial review to determine weather their are mitigating factors, and without any discretion as to sentencing.
Fair point. There are however lesser magical oaths that can be made or signed, for instance the jinxed signup sheet for Dumbledore's Army in book 5. A written oath (like the one British soldiers sign and swear IRL) that has some incapacitating but non-fatal and reversible penalty for treachery, treason etc would be, IMO, advantageous. Naturally you would include caveats and such for the "I'm being ordered to do something illegal" side. Unless of course whoever is giving those orders is also under such an oath and will be magically punished for issuing orders they know to be illegal.
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Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Zixinus wrote:How would you structure should an armed force? Again, what sort of threats would it have to face?
I covered this somewhat back in the OP, but for a Potterverse Wizarding force, at minimum:

Major insurrections by dark wizards/creatures. A lot of this will likely be cloak and dagger stuff with stealth, infiltration, terrorism, and mind control, but occasional pitched battles (like the Battle of Hogwarts) are a possibility. This may entail having to break fixed magical defences (such as concealment and shielding spells and anti-disapparition spells).

Revolts from marginalized groups such as Centaurs and Goblins (although this is something that should probably be resolved politically before it gets to that point).

Possible hostile action from another Wizarding country (this seems less common, perhaps due to the small scale and isolated nature of the setting, but both the Grindlewald and Voldemort wars crossed national boundaries to some extent).

Exposure to Muggles, potentially resulting in litteral witch hunts/attempted genocide (the Doomsday scenario).
You probably want the military equivalent of a few things:
- Logistics and teleportation: stock of broomsticks, enchanted vehicles (perhaps made resistant to hostile magic) and military-use keystones? Plus stockpiles of magic-critical resources.
Certain magical potions/items that are not quickly manufactured should be stockpiled, yes.

Portkeys seem to me a good route to go for transport, as they can be used even in areas with anti-apparitions spells and can transport multiple people, and do not require any special training to use (just to create).
- Intelligence and divination: you need to know who they are fighting, spy-specialist plus counter-intelligence.
Divination is extremely fuzzy and unreliable.

I would recommend regular random sweeps for people who may be under mental influence, mandatory Occlumency training (as mentioned), Legilimency as well, and periodic questioning under Veritaserum (probably randomized as I seem to recall that it is possible for a wizard to resist it).

Although I'm not sure effective Occlumency/Legilimency is something most can learn.
- Health and Potions: you want a stock of potions for combat use (healing, transforming, invisible potions, whatever) or be able to make them on short notice.
Agreed.
- Creatures: you have a limited wizards, you can compensate by using (and if necessary, breeding) creatures.
Its already fairly common to use magical creatures in battle. This is fine as long as they're not enslaved sapient creatures, and as long as Dementors are not used.
- Muggle: muggles fighters equipped with enchanted weapons (again, to compensate for limited wizard population), as well as support base for any muggle-tech that would be useful.
Given that most combat magic seems to be quite close-range, I think their's a real argument to be made for using Muggles who are aware of magic as snipers. Their must be a fair number of retired military/police who have magical relatives who could be recruited. I've raised this point in Harry Potter discussions before.
- Undead: there are vampires and ghosts mentioned. Perhaps they may be willing and could be put to use?
Ghosts are potentially a great option for recon, as they're apparently almost impossible to harm and can go through walls.
- Vault and watchers: there are all sorts of magically extremely powerful artifacts, places and creatures in the world that need to be secured, either to ensure the security of the nation (ie, magic superweapons or just things-better-left-alone are not accessible to idiots and fools, wizard or muggle). Plus ensure, if it is wise, that they are available for military use if necessary.

Does anyone have any other ideas?
Vaults to secure powerful magical things... that's basically the Department of Mysteries.

Gringotts can be used in that role too.

Hogwarts has been as well, of course, but its not ideal for a school to double as a military instillation.
Eternal_Freedom wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:I would be very hesitant to employ Unbreakable Vows at all, much less so broadly.

They are explicitly stated to kill if broken. To my knowledge, their is no mention of any loss of magic for breaking a vow in Potterverse lore.

To place a spell on every single professional soldier, much less members of a citizens' militia, that will kill them if they are disloyal or violate confidentiality (especially that last one, as it could happen by accident) is not only extremely draconian, its politically dangerous. Because it means that soldiers will potentially be physically unable to violate an order without dying if, say, they are ordered to commit war crimes.

Edit: It also means any infractions will be punished without judicial review to determine weather their are mitigating factors, and without any discretion as to sentencing.
Fair point. There are however lesser magical oaths that can be made or signed, for instance the jinxed signup sheet for Dumbledore's Army in book 5. A written oath (like the one British soldiers sign and swear IRL) that has some incapacitating but non-fatal and reversible penalty for treachery, treason etc would be, IMO, advantageous. Naturally you would include caveats and such for the "I'm being ordered to do something illegal" side. Unless of course whoever is giving those orders is also under such an oath and will be magically punished for issuing orders they know to be illegal.
Something like Hermione's jinx for Dumbledore's Army is certainly valid.

Also, as above, periodic random questioning under Veritaserum. Its not fool proof (one could have been forced to believe that they did something/have been forced to do something), but its a start.
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Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Elheru Aran »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
- Undead: there are vampires and ghosts mentioned. Perhaps they may be willing and could be put to use?
Ghosts are potentially a great option for recon, as they're apparently almost impossible to harm and can go through walls.
Just a quick point: are ghosts in HP more or less fixed to one location?

At least we only ever see the Hogwarts ghosts AFAIK, and again AFAIK they don't venture beyond Hogwarts castle itself. Certainly there are ghosts elsewhere, but could you tell a ghost in say Amsterdam to travel to Frankfurt and come back and tell you what's going on there?

The enchanted paintings might be a better bet as far as that goes. We already know those can travel between each other to some degree; IIRC Phineas Nigellus' picture could go back and forth between Hogwarts and Grimmauld Place, for example.

Of course the paintings could be easily foiled by simply taking them off the wall or turning them around...
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Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Elheru Aran wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
- Undead: there are vampires and ghosts mentioned. Perhaps they may be willing and could be put to use?
Ghosts are potentially a great option for recon, as they're apparently almost impossible to harm and can go through walls.
Just a quick point: are ghosts in HP more or less fixed to one location?
The variety of guests at Nick's Death Day party says no, or at least not universally.
At least we only ever see the Hogwarts ghosts AFAIK, and again AFAIK they don't venture beyond Hogwarts castle itself. Certainly there are ghosts elsewhere, but could you tell a ghost in say Amsterdam to travel to Frankfurt and come back and tell you what's going on there?
Possibly. I'm not entirely sure.
The enchanted paintings might be a better bet as far as that goes. We already know those can travel between each other to some degree; IIRC Phineas Nigellus' picture could go back and forth between Hogwarts and Grimmauld Place, for example.

Of course the paintings could be easily foiled by simply taking them off the wall or turning them around...
Dumbldore canonically uses the portraits as spies/messengers.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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