Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

FAN: Discuss various fictional worlds that don't qualify for SF.

Moderator: Steve

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Well, one of the interesting things about the world of Harry Potter is that it (or at least, Wizarding Britain) seems to normally have no standing national armed forces. There's the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, which has one small elite combat force (the Aurors) which seems like a combination of FBI, SWATT, and Secret Service. I suppose you could count the Dementors as well. :evil: Then their are a number of what might be termed civilian militias and local private security forces (the Centaurs, the Goblin Guards on Gringotts, the Order of the Phoenix, Dumbledore's Army, etc.). And their is a major terrorist organization (the Death Eaters and their lackies), which at full force could be considered an army.

But their is apparently no legitimate national organization dedicated to the role of combat beyond a small law enforcement unit.

This makes a certain amount of sense when their population is likely in the thousands/tens of thousands for the entire country, and their society is built around secrecy from the non-magical ("Muggle") world, but it nonetheless means that they aren't terribly prepared to fight a serious conflict.

So, here's the scenario:

Following the disastrous events of the Second Wizarding War, Minister Shacklebolt approaches you to draft a proposal for the creation of an Army of Wizarding Britain. Keep in mind the following limitations:

1. Population. I don't actually know what, if anything, the canon number is for the population of Wizarding Britain, but as I understand it, its generally held to be in the low thousands. For the purposes of this thread, assume approximately 10,000, with approximately half of those being witches and wizards and the rest being Squibs, Muggles aware of/living in the magical world, and non-human magical creatures.

2. Secrecy. The Statute of Secrecy is still in effect.

3. This force should be able, at minimum, to meet the following objectives:

-Fight a major magical battle around a fortified location (e.g. the Battle of Hogwarts), in either an offensive or defensive role.

-Secure the borders of Wizarding Britain against infiltration or invasion by another magical nation or faction abroad.

-Defend the magical populace in the event that hostile Muggles become aware of their existence.

Have at it! :D
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Darth Tanner
Jedi Master
Posts: 1445
Joined: 2006-03-29 04:07pm
Location: Birmingham, UK

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Darth Tanner »

What’s wrong with the current situation of filling that roll with the Aurors and various departments specialising in keeping the muggles ignorant via memory charms ect?

The battle of Hogwarts only happened because the state was subsumed by the terrorists, an army would make no difference here as it would also have been subsumed by the terrorists... if anything it makes it worse as more people are going to be impacted by any infiltration or corruption of the state apparatus.

If pushed to ‘do something’ I maintain the Aurors and magical law enforcement officers as the main arm of the military and simply bulk them out with volunteers. Essentially a territorial army/reserve force that could be called in for emergencies and where volunteer wizards are offered training to be useful, most likely in auxilary roles.

The books indicate that the average wizard knows almost no offensive or defensive magic and even government employees were reliant on charmed items created by the Weaselys for simple spells… creating at least some standard of self defence skills would seem to be vital but you will quickly run into the issue of manpower shortages. Its already incredible that a population in the low thousands would have that many soldiers/police as is demonstrated... similar levels to muggle populations would have at most 20 police officers and maybe 20-50 soldiers... when they function in such a combined roll the UK wizard population should not have more than 20-50 people enforcing the law and yet we see a huge beurocratic establishment.

I don't believe any reliance on the Centaurs would be a good idea, against any sort of wizard or muggle force they would offer almost no combat capability. They are effectively literal horse archers... the goblin guards are also pretty much bank security guards.
Get busy living or get busy dying... unless there’s cake.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

That all seems reasonable, and relying on part-time volunteers (essentially a militia) around a core of officers/veterans drawn from Magical Law Enforcement might be practical (although I have another possible solution to the numbers issue which I'll cover shortly).

Though there's still a matter of political and doctrinal changes necessary to make a more effective force.

Anyway, my preliminary proposals:

Due to the population issue, and the ability of trained wizards to animate large numbers of automatons to fight for them (i.e. the Hogwarts armour/statues), I think that the force would consist of "squads" of one or two wizards controlling such proxies, for the most part.

Create custom-made combat automatons (armed and made out of something more durable than stone, let's say metal). Shrinking/levitation spells for portability. Remove those spells when you reach the battleground. Animate them, and send them in.

This way, a dozen trained transfiguration masters could command hundreds of troops.

I'd also, perhaps, retain at least a couple small strike teams for when a precision strike was required (not sure how much intelligence said automatons could have). Probably draw them from veterans of the Wizarding Wars, with some extra training. Non-humans ought to be incorporate where possible, both for political reasons and because of certain innate advantages (like House Elves getting around anti-apparition spells). The idea of using Muggle snipers as occurred to me, for one. I don't think wizards would have much defence against it.

A support staff would include healers, communications (those enchanted mirrors seem like the best magical means of communication if they can be produced in large numbers) and "artillery" in the form of wizards/witches who specialize in casting long-range area of effect spells.

I've also thought of trying to engineer portkey bombs. Teleport them into an enemy stronghold/force, with a timer (or magically rigged to go off when someone touches them, or whatever).

Another nasty idea I thought up would be to enchant a vehicle to fly over a battle field, rig it with spells to make it hard to detect/invisible, and then use it to bombard enemy positions from above. Basically a wizard air force. :D As long as the spells left no visible traces, or the enemy had someone good enough to quickly take down your stealth spells (on a moving target) on the fly, I'm not sure how that could even be countered with Potterverse magic (well, maybe with Dementors- they can fly and see through invisibility cloaks). Keep a guy who can cast Patronuses on board.

Flying patrols can be used for border defence. We also know their are ways to detect things from a distance (like underage magic), so perhaps it would be possible to set up spells to detect hostile persons or magic entering the country.

In the event of a conflict with Muggles, open warfare will be a losing proposition due to numbers, so their will have to be more of an emphasis on guerrilla/insurgency combat, I think. Potterverse magic is deadly for this, with all the stealth and mental influence spells. Mental magic on Muggle leaders is one obvious option.

Edit: In fact, a militia around a core of professionals isn't a bad description of the Order of the Phoenix/Dumbledore's Army.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

One more point:

I wonder how much the lack of defensive skills in the general populace is due to the poor quality of the DADA class due to Voldemort's curse, and how much of the Ministry's shit quality is due to a culture that favours pedigree and political reliability over competence.

Correct those underlying problems (and the first, at least, may be moot after Voldemort's death), and you might have a lot more trained manpower to draw on.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Zixinus
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6663
Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
Location: In Seth the Blitzspear
Contact:

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Zixinus »

It's been long since I read the books and I didn't read after about book 4-5, I think.

In case the inevitable happens and muggles gain knowledge of the wizarding world, one thing the army should have is secure shelters. Essentially the equivalents of nuclear shelters, places that can house large number of wizards who have been exposed as such to the public and cannot secure their homes.

Another thing they might need is a stock of creatures that can aid in a fight, perhaps one or more types depending on their expected use. You want a creature that has the following characteristics:
- Can be either very well trained by handler who can maintain control over them even during a fight, or are intelligent enough to understand human language and are disciplined.
- Long lived enough to be economic, at least a decade or more of useful service life.
- Not endangered.
- Physically, mentally and magically enduring enough to handle fights,
- Do not have overly special requirements that would overly complicate logistics, such as rare magical foods that cannot be stockpiled, regular potions with uber-rare ingredients, etc.
- Assured loyalty: they will be unlikely to turn against regular wizards by their nature, such as the Dementors.

I'd split it into perhaps two corps:

Physical response force: includes muggles but anything physically threatening.
- Can non-lethally overpower humans and most non-magic-powered but physically imposing creatures.
- Can stand up to non-military muggle weapons, including small arms without suffering serious damage.
- Imposing enough to discourage a rioting crowd. Also able to retain calm in a crowd.
- Can be mobilized rapidly, either with teleports or by its own power such as flight. Possibility of disguised form to travel among muggles.

Magical response force:
- resistant to common methods of magical attacks, commonly-taught spells from wizards.
- able to disarm hostile wizards without permanent harm.
- cannot be made magically obedient, mentally cannot be tempered with.
- Can penetrate common magical defenses meant to keep people out.

Just a thought: the army should have a Muggle-specialist section, wizards or even trained who are familiar and able to use muggle tech. If you are fighting wizards, using muggle tech might bring an advantage. Mostly stuff like communications, sharing information on a channel that wizards don't use, even using Muggle weapons if advantageous (not just guns, but stuff like teargas or tasers). But most of all able to operate with muggle authorities like police, who would believe them MI5 agents or whatever. It would, for example, allow instant contact with its members and allow organization of a response force easier.
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Zixinus wrote:In case the inevitable happens and muggles gain knowledge of the wizarding world, one thing the army should have is secure shelters. Essentially the equivalents of nuclear shelters, places that can house large number of wizards who have been exposed as such to the public and cannot secure their homes.
To a point, that's what heavily concealed wizarding locations like Hogwarts are already, or at least they could function in that role. It might well prove impossible, or at least difficult, for Muggles to locate them without inside help. Off the top of my head, the British magical community has at least three such locations: Hogwarts, Diagon Ally/Knockturn Alley, and Azkaban prison (the concealment around the Ministry and Saint Mungo's hospital seemed a little less formidable from what I recall, but make it possibly five). This is not counting private dwellings such as the Black house.

It also helps when magic can be used to heavily conceal something as ordinary as a tent, and expand its interior to the size of a house (as used in book seven).
Another thing they might need is a stock of creatures that can aid in a fight, perhaps one or more types depending on their expected use. You want a creature that has the following characteristics:
- Can be either very well trained by handler who can maintain control over them even during a fight, or are intelligent enough to understand human language and are disciplined.
Past a certain level of intelligence, of course, you'd be dealing with sentience and all the ethical issues that come with it.

But wizards do use some creatures in this capacity, of course. Like security trolls.
- Long lived enough to be economic, at least a decade or more of useful service life.
- Not endangered.
- Physically, mentally and magically enduring enough to handle fights,
- Do not have overly special requirements that would overly complicate logistics, such as rare magical foods that cannot be stockpiled, regular potions with uber-rare ingredients, etc.
- Assured loyalty: they will be unlikely to turn against regular wizards by their nature, such as the Dementors.
That last point could be tricky.

Or, for that matter, the endangered point if you're using magical creatures.
I'd split it into perhaps two corps:

Physical response force: includes muggles but anything physically threatening.
- Can non-lethally overpower humans and most non-magic-powered but physically imposing creatures.
- Can stand up to non-military muggle weapons, including small arms without suffering serious damage.
- Imposing enough to discourage a rioting crowd. Also able to retain calm in a crowd.
- Can be mobilized rapidly, either with teleports or by its own power such as flight. Possibility of disguised form to travel among muggles.

Magical response force:
- resistant to common methods of magical attacks, commonly-taught spells from wizards.
- able to disarm hostile wizards without permanent harm.
- cannot be made magically obedient, mentally cannot be tempered with.
- Can penetrate common magical defenses meant to keep people out.
Hmm.

Rapid mobilization would be important and feasible for both forces. Arguably more important for the magical response one, as hostile wizards will likely have capabilities (like apparition) very well-suited to fast hit-and run tactics.

You'd need to come up with something that could stop small arms fire for the first force. Maybe some sort of magical material could function as a kevlar equivalent? Or a sufficiently strong shielding spell, of course.

Not sure you'd want to use low-intelligence creatures for crowd control though. That sounds like a recipe for high collateral damage.

For the second force, you'd have a hard time coming up with something Imperius-proof, I suspect, although their are magical creatures which are spell resistant (including dragons, giants, and dementors).
Just a thought: the army should have a Muggle-specialist section, wizards or even trained who are familiar and able to use muggle tech. If you are fighting wizards, using muggle tech might bring an advantage. Mostly stuff like communications, sharing information on a channel that wizards don't use, even using Muggle weapons if advantageous (not just guns, but stuff like teargas or tasers). But most of all able to operate with muggle authorities like police, who would believe them MI5 agents or whatever. It would, for example, allow instant contact with its members and allow organization of a response force easier.
Keep in mind the numbers issue. Your "Muggle-specialist section" might be just a few guys.

Beyond that, I think the wizards have a pretty secure form of communication as is- the two-way mirrors I mentioned above (Sirius gives Harry one in book five, and it comes in handy in book seven). I don't recall their being any mention of any way to spy on a communication using that means remotely. Though if its just a two person thing, then you can't do conference calls.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Eternal_Freedom
Castellan
Posts: 10370
Joined: 2010-03-09 02:16pm
Location: CIC, Battlestar Temeraire

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

I think that the estimates you give for the wizarding population are too low. As others pointed out, the Ministry of Magic is a huge organisation, comparable to a large Whitehall department which might have several thousand workers alone. The Wizengamot has several dozens members at least, whichimplies a larger population than your 5,000 estimate - seriously, you don't need one politician to every hundred citizens, that alone suggests a much higher population.

The sheer size of Voldemort's army that attacked Hogwarts in the last film also suggests a much bigger population. Finally, the Quidditch World Cup stadium is stated, in book 4, to seat "a hundred thousand." Now obviously a considerable portion of those will be visitors from overseas, but we know that a number of wizarding families in Britain weren't able to get tickets, so again, a considerably larger population is indicated.

I tihnk this brain bug of a very small wizarding population comes from looking at Hogwarts class sizes. Yes, they are small but they are not typical sizes. The kids we see at Hogwarts in the books are the post-war generation that lost a lot of families, so naturally classes will be smaller. As evidence, how many countless times do we see characters hiding in "disused classrooms" at Hogwarts - clearly they had a much larger student population at some point.

TRR: Your comments about the lack of self-defence knowledge coming from Voldemort's curse on the DADA position and the Ministry's bias towards purebloods sounds right.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:I think that the estimates you give for the wizarding population are too low. As others pointed out, the Ministry of Magic is a huge organisation, comparable to a large Whitehall department which might have several thousand workers alone. The Wizengamot has several dozens members at least, whichimplies a larger population than your 5,000 estimate - seriously, you don't need one politician to every hundred citizens, that alone suggests a much higher population.
Perhaps.

It could also be that the Wizarding World, or the British part at least, is heavy on big government and that the government employs a disproportionate number of people compared to most countries.

Remember that the larger the population, the harder their remaining secret is to explain.
The sheer size of Voldemort's army that attacked Hogwarts in the last film also suggests a much bigger population.
I'm operating on book canon here. Sorry if I didn't make that clear before.
Finally, the Quidditch World Cup stadium is stated, in book 4, to seat "a hundred thousand." Now obviously a considerable portion of those will be visitors from overseas, but we know that a number of wizarding families in Britain weren't able to get tickets, so again, a considerably larger population is indicated.
Huh. Didn't recall that. Well, you're probably right about the population being higher then. Or Rowling screwed up her continuity.
I tihnk this brain bug of a very small wizarding population comes from looking at Hogwarts class sizes. Yes, they are small but they are not typical sizes. The kids we see at Hogwarts in the books are the post-war generation that lost a lot of families, so naturally classes will be smaller. As evidence, how many countless times do we see characters hiding in "disused classrooms" at Hogwarts - clearly they had a much larger student population at some point.
Maybe. Although I'd have expected it to start skyrocketing after Harry's second year due to a post-war baby boom.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Zixinus
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6663
Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
Location: In Seth the Blitzspear
Contact:

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Zixinus »

A note on creature stock:
It might be more advantageous, if getting necessary creatures with all the requirements is rare, they may recruit creatures that have some of the ability with specialist tasks. Such as a handful of creatures doing crowd control, either against muggles, wizards or other sentient.
Past a certain level of intelligence, of course, you'd be dealing with sentience and all the ethical issues that come with it.

But wizards do use some creatures in this capacity, of course. Like security trolls.
I am assuming that if they are sentient, they volunteered or recruited the same way wizards (and witches but I'm not going to type that down every time) would be. They would also be compensated for their work, even if with not with money. No slaves, at least not ones that could be turned against the army with the prospect of freedom.
That last point could be tricky.
As much loyalty as the wizards themselves would have. Not necessarily absolute loyalty or absolute control.

Basically, I'm saying to avoid something like with what happened to the Dementors, who naturally allied to Dark Wizards over their regular wizard masters. Keeping them as prison guards might have worked but not when they started using them as security guards for school.

Or, for that matter, the endangered point if you're using magical creatures.
Not endangered to the point that their use and loss in battle would mean extinction for the species. Or if they can be bred (non-sentient), establish a breeding program that allows the species to survive even if all creatures in service die.

Also, I should have added: also not critical to existing magic infrastructure or security of the nation.
Rapid mobilization would be important and feasible for both forces. Arguably more important for the magical response one, as hostile wizards will likely have capabilities (like apparition) very well-suited to fast hit-and run tactics.
I should have added something like that for the magical response force, most wizards have brooms or similar vehicles. Flight or otherwise other ability to keep pace might or prevent escape would be necessary.

A squad of free, aggressive house elves with a tasers might qualify for example (I think). "Dobby says drop the wand and put your hands on your head or Dobby gonna shock ya!"
You'd need to come up with something that could stop small arms fire for the first force. Maybe some sort of magical material could function as a kevlar equivalent? Or a sufficiently strong shielding spell, of course.
I suspect that there may be already such creatures.

Or, if not, they could be made impervious to bullets (and clubs and other weapons an angry mob would improvise) easily enough (potions that can be made or kept on-hand or at least in storage) and long enough to be useful. An hour's bulletproof-potion versus one that lasts days or even weeks.

Of course, the physical response may also be responding to things like rouge magic creature attack for whom a physical force is enough. So physical protection would extend to other things than muggles, such as claws or other physical weapons.
Not sure you'd want to use low-intelligence creatures for crowd control though. That sounds like a recipe for high collateral damage.
Hence the condition to have the ability to remain calm in the crowd or be kept calm, as well as be able to handle the crowd non-lethally. A dragon that would respond with talons and fire is a bad idea.
For the second force, you'd have a hard time coming up with something Imperius-proof, I suspect, although their are magical creatures which are spell resistant (including dragons, giants, and dementors).
The lore seems to have established that the killing curse is very strong. However, it seems Dementors are immune as they are not alive, so undead may have protection against it.

Of course, it is also sufficient if a creature can be made hard to hit in the first place, such as being invisible, able to instantly teleport or otherwise have measures to block. Or it may not even be necessary.

The point is that a more educated wizard would not be able to disable them with just one spell or two.
Keep in mind the numbers issue. Your "Muggle-specialist section" might be just a few guys.
I am not imaging this force large to begin with. I imagine a hundred or two combat-ready units in total, with a squad or two of enchanted muggle units.

In practice, I'd imagine this as a reserve force that has been gathered together in a Hodge-podge way. A bunch of Wizard War veterans browsing trough the wizarding world's miscellaneous and odd bits, gathering useful weirdos and others that could be hammered into an effective force after much training and effort.

The real question would be need. Who are you going to use the force against? Death Eaters? Small enclaves or magical creatures that had enough? Invading wizards? Are wizards likely to invade at all? Can they even invade? Is there an army of fairies that the UK wizarding world has reasons to worry about?
Because you tailor your army to the enemy. If you can't tell who the enemy is, you either need an intelligence agency first or ask whether you need an army at all.

The thing about the magic society is that everyone in it is qualified to do magic to a certain level. So a citizen militia makes more sense than it does in the muggle world. Aside the Death Eater, the Ministry seemed to have most things in hand.
Beyond that, I think the wizards have a pretty secure form of communication as is- the two-way mirrors I mentioned above (Sirius gives Harry one in book five, and it comes in handy in book seven). I don't recall their being any mention of any way to spy on a communication using that means remotely. Though if its just a two person thing, then you can't do conference calls.
I was thinking smartphones actually, that could replicate that functionality. If you could encrypt the calls and data sent trough, it would be fairly secure, especially against wizards. They could ask some help from MI6 and MI5 on that front. I don't know whether there is a company in the UK that sells secured phones.

Consider other things they could do: they could keep track where agents are, help them navigate, allow them to send and receive digital communications, etc.
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Well, the first problem is your population figures. Wizarding Brittain does not have a population that low. Population demographics indicate a population of at least 20k people in total, possibly more. Expand that to include Squibs and Aware-Muggles and magical beings, we're talking 40k minimum, probably much higher.

Now, those numbers are too low to have a standing army. Even with high degrees of militarization you are looking at maybe 1% of the population. That is 400 people who can be fully supported by the rest of the population. From that, we draw the Officer and NCO corps. Enlisted will be from reserves.

Getting a proper reserve corps might take some time. The curriculum at Hogwarts needs to be changed, because apparently no one knows any offensive or defensive spells. So what we do is change the curriculum from year 1.

Defense Against the Dark Arts becomes just what it says on the tin. Dealing with hostile magical creatures like boggarts and shit can be handled in another mandatory class, Recognition and Defense Against Magical Creatures.

Year 1. Basic disarmament and shield charms
Year 2. Jinxes useful for distraction, intermediate shield charms
Year 3. Counter-curses, debilitating jinxes, obfuscatory charms
Year 4. Combat transfiguration and object animation
Year 5. Advanced shield charms and damaging spells (fire, lightning, Bombardment spells)
Year 6. Small unit tactics, area wards, and combat apparition. Basically putting everything else to the test (except for the spells that can actually hurt people directly) in small engagements. Dueling, capture the flag, that sort of thing. Legilimency and Ocullemency for advanced students.
Year 7. The Unforgivable Curses and You! (because the prohibition against these spells is lifted in times of war). Both in how to defend against them, and how to use them. Students for this course have to be hand-picked by the head-master, and is non-mandatory.

Another mandatory course will be included. Magical Ethics. Because Jesus Fucking Christ.

Not only do these courses give every wizard the capacity to defend themselves if attacked, but it means that in the event another Dark Lord arises, the militia can be called up and be combat effective. If someone tries to take over the ministry of magic, the Jr. Functionaries will be able to fight them off potentially. Even if the Dark Lord's minions are equally well trained, they will at least be fighting on an even footing, rather than being able to mow through helpless clerks. They'll take casualties, be slowed down long enough for the Aurors to apparate in.

....

In the event of a conflict with muggles, things get interesting. The Wizarding World has all manner of means to fuck with muggles. The creation of areas where technology does not function, the ability to not just conceal locations completely but to distort space-time itself to hide an entire building inside a muggle building like a god damned russian doll.

Honestly I dont think it would be much of a contest, when the Challenger II gets animated and turned against its creators, radio stops working, and cordite stops being reactive.

So long as the Wizards are aware of the defense capabilities of muggles (read:snipers), I dont think it is much of a contest.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Elheru Aran »

I'm not necessarily sure you want to use Hogwarts as a boot camp... better, perhaps, to have the option of taking some classes with a more military bent and then a post-secondary, more explicitly military education being available. 'Auror School' or something like that.

But the population issue does raise the question of how many magical kids *are* going to Hogwarts. If you've got ~20-30K wizards (full-blood, mixed, and one-offs like Hermione) in the UK, most of which are married or related to each other, and say... a generous one-quarter of that is kids... that's a *lot* more than we ever really hear about being at Hogwarts.

Let's see... a quarter of 20K is 5K... quarter of 30K is 7.5, so between 5,000-7,500 children. Hogwarts doesn't start till kids are ten, so let's be generous and halve that... call it ~3,000 children. Four Houses at Hogwarts, and each one is probably roughly equal in number (nobody ever says there are more Hufflepuffs than Gryffindors, for example), so call it 750 kids per house. Divide that by seven years, 100 (and change) kids per year per house, so that's ~400 new kids each year (and of course ~400, minus wash-outs, leaving at the end of their 7th year).

Again, that would be ~3,000 students at Hogwarts each year in total. Even knocking it down a bit to allow for a low birth-rate, it would still be between a thousand to two thousand. Rowling said a while ago that it's ~1 thousand, but neither the movies nor the books support that. One thousand would be plausible for what appears to be the wizarding world's equivalent of a large English private school like Rugby or Eton. Three thousand is stretching it rather farther than that.
http://www.beyondhogwarts.com/harry-pot ... warts.html

There are only ~20 teachers (minus the rotating cast of DATDA teachers and occasional guest-stars like Firenze) named, including the headmaster. If you don't count Filch and Hagrid, that's a couple less. Unless they've got time-travel shenanigans going on (not impossible) or there's a vast cast of unnamed teachers (also possible, but the series never says anything of the kind), that's simply not enough unless the students only visit each teacher for one class a week. Of course they're not covering more than a few subjects per year, but some subjects you repeat every year (DATDA, anybody?).

The books never really say that there are so many students at Hogwarts; certainly there aren't that many named students (with the caveat that odds are good that Harry wouldn't have known many kids outside his social circle of Gryffindor/Dumbledore's Army students and of course the books are largely from his viewpoint). There are a number of common-room meetings, and unless there's some serious spatial mindfuckery going, I don't see ~750 kids fitting into the Gryffindor common room for McGonnall to give them a lecture on how they're not supposed to go out at night or whatever. Maybe if she's speaking to each year in turn, but nonetheless.

If Rowling had ever said something like "well Hogwarts is just the best wizarding school in the UK, there are other schools that aren't as good but they're cheaper so more kids go there" that would have made all that much easier, but of course she didn't think it that far through. One explanation that does occur to me is that you have to qualify at a certain level of magical ability to enter Hogwarts, but the existence of Squibs who attended for some time before washing out disqualifies that (unless they were charity cases). If it's a financial thing-- unlikely given the Weasley family are dirt-poor but they manage to send every child to Hogwarts-- that would be another possible explanation. Last idea that occurs to me is that homeschooling is really popular among Wizarding families? I got nothing...
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Elheru Aran »

Ghetto Edit:

Of course, if a significant portion of the wizarding population in the UK decided to look for greener pastures during Voldemort's first reign of terror, that could explain a lot. Hogwarts probably does have the space to accommodate *that* many students, but as noted, there are apparently a goodly number of disused classrooms and-- most importantly-- there's a restroom that's almost completely unused (Moaning Myrtle's). Restrooms are important. Especially in schools. They're prime contraband-dealing/necking spaces. You don't get disused restrooms unless there's not that many kids around.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

I'm not necessarily sure you want to use Hogwarts as a boot camp... better, perhaps, to have the option of taking some classes with a more military bent and then a post-secondary, more explicitly military education being available. 'Auror School' or something like that.
It is a DADA class. It should actually teach kids how to defend themselves against the dark arts. Plus, the school was attacked by an army of evil wizards in recent memory, and kids had to help defend it.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Kingmaker
Jedi Knight
Posts: 534
Joined: 2009-12-10 03:35am

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Kingmaker »

Even in the absence of a militarization plan, expecting your average wizard to meet a high level of competence in self-defense makes sense. I got the impression that what little wizarding law enforcement exists is concerned primarily with enforcing regulations and tracking down fugitives. Which is to say, you can't really call the Wizard Police if you get into trouble, so you need to be able to take care of yourself without breaking the law.

With respect to fighting Muggles: I don't really see much reason for Wizards to actually battle Muggles. They can avoid them fairly trivially, and there is little to be gained by directly engaging them. As such, the Wizard Army's primary concern in such a scenario should be rescuing/evacuating any actual wizards unfortunate/incompetent enough to get caught. Fortunately, teleportation is a relatively accessible skill that Muggles have no way to defend against.

Of course, that same thing makes 'securing the borders' of magical Britain effectively impossible.
In the event that the content of the above post is factually or logically flawed, I was Trolling All Along.

"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful." - George Box
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Kingmaker wrote:Even in the absence of a militarization plan, expecting your average wizard to meet a high level of competence in self-defense makes sense. I got the impression that what little wizarding law enforcement exists is concerned primarily with enforcing regulations and tracking down fugitives. Which is to say, you can't really call the Wizard Police if you get into trouble, so you need to be able to take care of yourself without breaking the law.
Exactly this. Look, these kids are spending 5 years (with an optional 6th and 7th) in a Defense Against the Dark Arts. They didnt learn so much as a counter-jinx until year 4, when the most basic form of self defense really should be "shielding yourself from magical attack, and disarming your opponent".
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Elheru Aran »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Kingmaker wrote:Even in the absence of a militarization plan, expecting your average wizard to meet a high level of competence in self-defense makes sense. I got the impression that what little wizarding law enforcement exists is concerned primarily with enforcing regulations and tracking down fugitives. Which is to say, you can't really call the Wizard Police if you get into trouble, so you need to be able to take care of yourself without breaking the law.
Exactly this. Look, these kids are spending 5 years (with an optional 6th and 7th) in a Defense Against the Dark Arts. They didnt learn so much as a counter-jinx until year 4, when the most basic form of self defense really should be "shielding yourself from magical attack, and disarming your opponent".
I'm certainly not discounting that the kids *should* have some kind of basic self-defense courses available to them, even mandatory ones. I have absolutely no issue with that kind of thing, given the occasionally high-risk environment they find themselves in.

The main issue I have is that you cannot use the books as an example of 'typical' DATDA courses, given that there was an explicit curse on the class as long as Harry was at Hogwarts. For all we know, in other years the classes were far more effective, and presumably were at least somewhat competent given that most of the adult Aurors aren't entirely swept away by the Death Eaters.

Even in the books, the classes weren't *completely* useless. Books one and two, yes-- but Quirrell was possessed by Voldemort and had absolutely no reason to teach the kids anything that could possibly be used against him, and Lockhart did vaguely attempt to teach the kids the basics of offensive magic in the context of duelling. Lupin taught them some fairly useful stuff against magical critters, Moody (for all he was an impostor for most of the book) some offensive magic, Umbridge turned the tables again by being fairly useless (arguably deliberately so as a move to suppress independent tendencies among the student population) and I can't remember who was DATDA instructor in the last couple books so that's a wash. It wasn't much, I'll grant you that.

Anyway, for cultural reasons I might feel that the British wizarding world might be uncomfortable with some mandatory courses having an explicitly military focus at Hogwarts. Of course, after the whole Voldemort thing, that might be less of an issue...
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

I'm certainly not discounting that the kids *should* have some kind of basic self-defense courses available to them, even mandatory ones. I have absolutely no issue with that kind of thing, given the occasionally high-risk environment they find themselves in.

The main issue I have is that you cannot use the books as an example of 'typical' DATDA courses, given that there was an explicit curse on the class as long as Harry was at Hogwarts. For all we know, in other years the classes were far more effective, and presumably were at least somewhat competent given that most of the adult Aurors aren't entirely swept away by the Death Eaters.
That may well be the case, but the curriculum still needs to be reformed top to bottom. It has been so inadequate for so long that it would benefit from standardization. Lupin and not-Moody were the only useful instructors they had for five years. It was so bad that the most basic of combat magic had to be taught from scratch by Potter and Friends in year 5, because they were the only people who had Seen Enough Shit to be even baseline competent for their year by any sane curriculum.

Hell, you would think the other teachers would have noticed the obvious deficiency to would have corrected it with supplemental instruction.
Anyway, for cultural reasons I might feel that the British wizarding world might be uncomfortable with some mandatory courses having an explicitly military focus at Hogwarts. Of course, after the whole Voldemort thing, that might be less of an issue...
Well, the 6th and 7th year DADA class is for those completing NEWT level courses, which are for those who want a career using more advanced magic like being Aurors or Magical Researchers, so a military bent to DADA classes would be reasonable at that point. And that is also the point where you start seeing small unit tactics and combat teleportation in the curriculum.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Elheru Aran »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
I'm certainly not discounting that the kids *should* have some kind of basic self-defense courses available to them, even mandatory ones. I have absolutely no issue with that kind of thing, given the occasionally high-risk environment they find themselves in.

The main issue I have is that you cannot use the books as an example of 'typical' DATDA courses, given that there was an explicit curse on the class as long as Harry was at Hogwarts. For all we know, in other years the classes were far more effective, and presumably were at least somewhat competent given that most of the adult Aurors aren't entirely swept away by the Death Eaters.
That may well be the case, but the curriculum still needs to be reformed top to bottom. It has been so inadequate for so long that it would benefit from standardization. Lupin and not-Moody were the only useful instructors they had for five years. It was so bad that the most basic of combat magic had to be taught from scratch by Potter and Friends in year 5, because they were the only people who had Seen Enough Shit to be even baseline competent for their year by any sane curriculum.

Hell, you would think the other teachers would have noticed the obvious deficiency to would have corrected it with supplemental instruction.


I suspect a lot of this has to do with bureaucratic pressure from a government afraid of a new Voldemort, cultural inertia ("Potions was good enough for my grandpappy, it's good enough for my kid!") and low turn-over in staff (when one of your teachers is a fricking *ghost* that's been teaching the same class for like a century since he DIED...).

It strikes me that Voldemort was a *major* paradigm shift for the British wizarding culture. Previously, certainly they had to deal with the occasional Dark Wizard... but Voldemort seems to have been the most powerful, the only one to actually organize a military of sorts rather than going it himself, who dominated their society to such a great degree that even ten-plus years afterwards they're afraid to say his name. In the aftermath of such a disaster, there will be conflicting tendencies for change and for conservatism, and it appears that conservatism won the day for the most part.

I feel like we need a separate thread for discussion of HP social stuff... population and whatnot. That seems like it could be fruitful.
Anyway, for cultural reasons I might feel that the British wizarding world might be uncomfortable with some mandatory courses having an explicitly military focus at Hogwarts. Of course, after the whole Voldemort thing, that might be less of an issue...
Well, the 6th and 7th year DADA class is for those completing NEWT level courses, which are for those who want a career using more advanced magic like being Aurors or Magical Researchers, so a military bent to DADA classes would be reasonable at that point. And that is also the point where you start seeing small unit tactics and combat teleportation in the curriculum.
That works for me. Basic self defense and understanding of offensive and defensive magic for a few years (plus Ethics, because damn if that shouldn't be a first year course), then the option to go deeper. I would add extra-curricular options such as the aforementioned Auror Boot Camp or whatever; perhaps take the seventh year off to undertake such a career plan, which would include the advanced instruction that you normally get in seventh year but with more courses oriented towards magical warfare.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Elheru Aran wrote:I feel like we need a separate thread for discussion of HP social stuff... population and whatnot. That seems like it could be fruitful.
Oh god. If you want to create one, you have a guaranteed conversation partner. I could rant for days on how deeply dysfunctional that society is.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Eternal_Freedom
Castellan
Posts: 10370
Joined: 2010-03-09 02:16pm
Location: CIC, Battlestar Temeraire

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Same here. Sounds like fun!
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Elheru Aran »

Fair do's. I'll copy and paste my bit about Hogwarts' student body, if nobody objects to that, and we can go from there. The whole 'bitch about stuff in X genre' seems to be popular lately judging from how the starship design thread went...
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Looking forward to it. There's a lot of room for discussion there, but also, I suspect, a lot of common misconceptions perpetuated by fanfic (this is probably more a problem with Harry Potter fandom in part because its so damn big- speculation and "fanon" starts to overshadow the canon at times).
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Elheru Aran »

OK, posted. Have at it.

Not-quite-ghetto EDIT: I do apologize for the distraction from the OP though!
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

So basically, we're likely looking at a militia formed around a corps of veterans, using proxies (creatures, animated statues, etc.) to inflate their numbers?

Warfare is likely to be mostly cloak and dagger stuff in the Potterverse, so a focus on concealment, mental magic, covert transport, and countering the preceding.

Better training in squad tactics as well, perhaps.

Also, revamp the education system and government to give better basic defence training and ensure people are promoted based on ethics and ability, not loyalty or heritage or bribes.

Anything important I'm missing?

Edit: Might it be advisable to create more alliances with other nations? The lack of evident foreign support against Voldemort, even when he was engaging in illegal operations in other countries, is striking. And with the low numbers of the Wizarding World, a multi-national coalition might be the only way for most countries to support a large professional force.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Eternal_Freedom
Castellan
Posts: 10370
Joined: 2010-03-09 02:16pm
Location: CIC, Battlestar Temeraire

Re: Design a Wizarding Armed Forces (Harry Potter RAR).

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

The only things I would add would be that everyone in said militia must be trained in Occlumency (the mental defence magic) and, possibly, take Unbreakable Vows of loyalty/confidentiality/allegiance etc. Since if you break said vow you die (or maybe lose your magic, either way you're not able to resist anymore) it would make it night impossible to subvert or corrupt your force.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
Post Reply