Justifications for the Masquerade

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Q99
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

Post by Q99 »

I kinda like Hellboy's take: Supernatural stuff existing is public knowledge. Hellboy has been in newspapers back when he was a kid. There is no masquerade.

It's just *rare* most of the time so while you know stuff could be supernatural, it's not your go-to assumption, and when it turns out to be that there's a small number of experts to handle it.

There's no need to have a total masquerade, supernaturals can still largely lurk in the shadows in that setup.
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

Post by Q99 »

Oh! Then there's Death Vigil.

The Enemy maintains cover through two simple ways. One, the necromancers are, well, immortal humans with tattoos. That's not hard. Two, what they summon destroys minds with eye contact. So witnesses are literally gibbering wrecks, or at least damaged. Lack of believability there is thus innate.

The Vigil, on the flip side, again, mostly look human. Save for the white hair, but that's just odd, not "ooh that is inexplicable." Unless they transport in front of people, which they don't really have much reason to. There's the animal one, but even then, a white crow isn't *that* weird (in his crow form at least ^^).

Some of the effects of their powers are invisible to the non-gifted too, for bonus.


So, the masquerade there is pretty easy to maintain. Both sides are fairly small in number, non-obvious, and don't have much to gain for things getting out, so they play in quiet.
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

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Zixinus wrote:Again, it is not impossible problem for a vampire, especially if they have powers and resources. But it requires expenditure to do that where previously it didn't. Cost rises along with other problems.
If they have too much power (like the Vampires in Anne Rice novels IMHO), then you have to ask why a Masquerade ever got started in the first place. An extremely tough, immortal vampire in ancient times could set itself up as a God-King demanding human sacrifices, and retaining a coterie of human aristocrats who both gather sacrifices, rule in its name, and provide people to become additional vampires if needed.
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

Post by Simon_Jester »

Good point.

The obvious answer negates the "if they have too much power" part of your point. Either comparably powerful supernatural opponents pushed them into a greater degree of hiding at wandpoint (in which case being a god-king got you targeted), or humans started revolting en masse to the point where even if they were taking massive casualties to kill each vampire... they were killing vampires, and it became safer to hide.
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

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Simon_Jester wrote:Good point.

The obvious answer negates the "if they have too much power" part of your point. Either comparably powerful supernatural opponents pushed them into a greater degree of hiding at wandpoint (in which case being a god-king got you targeted), or humans started revolting en masse to the point where even if they were taking massive casualties to kill each vampire... they were killing vampires, and it became safer to hide.
Though really, if a Vampire was a good ruler and got loyal people, and was dangerous enough to their enemies the people were honestly safer than without them, I don't think en mass revolts are likely enough to discourage the try. Especially with how ambitious a lot of people are pre-undeath.

Hm.... the threat of revelation could be something *other* than humans.

Like in the aforementioned Death Vigil, Necromancers don't have a ton to fear from humans, nor does the Vigil. But "HEY VIGIL, NECROMANCERS ARE HERE!" or "Hey Necromancers, I spotted where the Vigil might live!" could result in some nasty casualties.

There's a lot of werewolf vs vampire ones where that'd apply. A human can be a signal flare rather than direct threat.
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

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Q99 wrote:Though really, if a Vampire was a good ruler and got loyal people, and was dangerous enough to their enemies the people were honestly safer than without them, I don't think en mass revolts are likely enough to discourage the try. Especially with how ambitious a lot of people are pre-undeath.
You mean, like with the historical Vlad Dracul who was (probably) not a vampire but was one scary son of a bitch and a horror to his enemies? The locals viewed him as a hero, savior, and protector even as he was nailing hats onto heads and impaling people by the dozens.

The monster is not a monster if he's on your side, ay?
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

Post by Lord Revan »

Broomstick wrote:
Q99 wrote:Though really, if a Vampire was a good ruler and got loyal people, and was dangerous enough to their enemies the people were honestly safer than without them, I don't think en mass revolts are likely enough to discourage the try. Especially with how ambitious a lot of people are pre-undeath.
You mean, like with the historical Vlad Dracul who was (probably) not a vampire but was one scary son of a bitch and a horror to his enemies? The locals viewed him as a hero, savior, and protector even as he was nailing hats onto heads and impaling people by the dozens.

The monster is not a monster if he's on your side, ay?
It should be noted that Vlad the Impailer (aka Vlad III of Wallachia aka Vlad Dracul(a)) wasn't really atypical bloodthirsty or brutal for his time, maybe not quite the norm but that far from it either.
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

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Lord Revan wrote: It should be noted that Vlad the Impailer (aka Vlad III of Wallachia aka Vlad Dracul(a)) wasn't really atypical bloodthirsty or brutal for his time, maybe not quite the norm but that far from it either.
I dunno, the 'stake an entire army' thing enough that it literally demoralized an army of the period away is pretty impressive.

Anyway, point stands. As long as bloodiness is directed outwards, you can definitely be good.

Anne Rice vampire with super speed? Your soldiers will talk about he 'has the blessing of quickness' and 'drinks the blood of the heathen enemy,' and stuff.
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

Post by Simon_Jester »

Part of the problem with the "direct all your evilness toward enemies of your people so they'll be loyal to you as a supernatural overlord" strategy is that you have to have enemies to fight all the time. A vampire who satisfies his need to consume blood by killing enemy soldiers can't stop fighting wars for a few years, unless he wants to switch over to attacking his own peasants.

Also, it gives the enemy incentive to target you, or to spread rumors about you. What if they have wizards of their own or something?
Q99 wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Good point.

The obvious answer negates the "if they have too much power" part of your point. Either comparably powerful supernatural opponents pushed them into a greater degree of hiding at wandpoint (in which case being a god-king got you targeted), or humans started revolting en masse to the point where even if they were taking massive casualties to kill each vampire... they were killing vampires, and it became safer to hide.
Though really, if a Vampire was a good ruler and got loyal people, and was dangerous enough to their enemies the people were honestly safer than without them, I don't think en mass revolts are likely enough to discourage the try. Especially with how ambitious a lot of people are pre-undeath.
I'm not clear what you mean by "discourage the try."

That said, the point is simply that if powerful vampire/monster/demons ruling as god-kings sometimes get killed in revolts, it increases the incentive to engage in a masquerade. And sure, a monstrous god-king might have a very good run ruling humans for decades or even centuries... but sooner or later the odds will catch up with you. The way to survive as an immortal is to be very, very careful about taking risks. For instance, something that has only a 5% chance of getting you killed if you do it once every twenty years has about a two in three chance of getting you killed if you keep doing it for four centuries.
Hm.... the threat of revelation could be something *other* than humans.

Like in the aforementioned Death Vigil, Necromancers don't have a ton to fear from humans, nor does the Vigil. But "HEY VIGIL, NECROMANCERS ARE HERE!" or "Hey Necromancers, I spotted where the Vigil might live!" could result in some nasty casualties.

There's a lot of werewolf vs vampire ones where that'd apply. A human can be a signal flare rather than direct threat.
Yeah, that's the other thing I came up with:

"...comparably powerful supernatural opponents pushed them into a greater degree of hiding at wandpoint, in which case being a god-king got you targeted."
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

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Simon_Jester wrote:Part of the problem with the "direct all your evilness toward enemies of your people so they'll be loyal to you as a supernatural overlord" strategy is that you have to have enemies to fight all the time. A vampire who satisfies his need to consume blood by killing enemy soldiers can't stop fighting wars for a few years, unless he wants to switch over to attacking his own peasants.
It depends on whether or not the vampire has to kill.

Seems if you look hard enough there's a fictional treatment of all these possibilities. China Mieville's The Scar has a fictional city ruled by various factions, one of which is vampiric. Residents are protected, but must pay the "gore tax" which is basically compulsory blood donations to the ruler. This is regarded by most residents as a fair bargain in return for safety and prosperity.

Another treatment is in the St. Germain novels of Chelsea Quinn Yarbro - the central character grew up in a society protected by their "god", who was what we call a vampire, sustained by blood sacrifice of his people which, again, amounts to a reasonable blood donation. Said central character is also a vampire, but does not seek to rule. He spends the millenia traveling, making love to women (yes, it's a bit of a bodice-ripper in places) prior to taking a little bite, and is both wealthy and trying to keep a low profile. Something getting more difficult as he progresses into the 20th Century even if he remains rather adaptable (he particularly likes fine cars).

Um... yeah, I guess I do like vampire fiction....
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

Post by Elheru Aran »

Yeah... the *type* of vampire can really make a big difference. If the vampire has no need to actually kill people to drink their blood-- if they can give it willingly-- that makes a big difference. If they can subsist on animal blood, again, that helps.

Literally inhuman monsters who like to scatter bodies where they go? A bit harder to hide, to say the least.
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

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Simon Jester wrote:Part of the problem with the "direct all your evilness toward enemies of your people so they'll be loyal to you as a supernatural overlord" strategy is that you have to have enemies to fight all the time. A vampire who satisfies his need to consume blood by killing enemy soldiers can't stop fighting wars for a few years, unless he wants to switch over to attacking his own peasants.
There's also criminals. Even for a has-to-kill vampire, I think most medieval nations can supply one or a small number of vampiric rulers with bodies.
Elheru Aran wrote:Yeah... the *type* of vampire can really make a big difference. If the vampire has no need to actually kill people to drink their blood-- if they can give it willingly-- that makes a big difference. If they can subsist on animal blood, again, that helps.

Literally inhuman monsters who like to scatter bodies where they go? A bit harder to hide, to say the least.
How they reproduce too. "One bite and you're turned" ones spread too fast to keep quiet or for a public one to have stability, even if most try and avoid it one can create an outbreak too big.

"You must drink my blood over multiple nights..." is much easier. If people around you just get weak but recover, and don't turn into vampires unless you spend significant effort, you're pretty good.
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

Post by Zixinus »

Don't forget slaves. There were relatively few in medieval times but IIRC, there was always a minor population.
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

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Zixinus wrote:Don't forget slaves. There were relatively few in medieval times but IIRC, there was always a minor population.
Yea. Slaves, and other populations that people don't mind 'vanishing.'

Like, if a population is already being targeted, that's where monsters most likely hit.


Which does in turn make it harder for even slightly noble/not-horrible vampires. If someone prefers to go after actually-horrible people, a lot of those are the ones with power.
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

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Past a certain point, a civilization actually can sustain a lot of human sacrifice - look at the Aztecs. They were champion butchers. Well, there's a reason Butcher made the Red Court based in such history in the Dresdenverse. If the vampire is viewed as a god-king sort and the society is large enough then a daily sacrifice becomes possible either from their own ranks, or via constant warfare with their neighbors to obtain a sufficient supply. In our world we're already looking at a truly bloody society and form of worship. If they had a god-king that actually consumed all that spilled blood...? Yeah, that's conceivable.
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

Post by Elheru Aran »

It's even easier if you manufacture a basic inherent reason for all this bloodshed. Religion is the most convenient. You want to prevent the end of the world? Keep the God-King alive forever so he'll always hold power. Something along those lines.

Guess those From Dusk til Dawn movies were on to something, huh...

EDIT: That's something else though now that I mention those movies. A bar literally 'in the middle of nowhere' that passes double duty as a bordello. You're mostly going to have either people lost on the road or criminal types showing up at those places, at least one of which won't be much missed if they vanish off the face of society.

The implication is also fairly strong that the Titty-Twister Bar is capable of magically appearing and disappearing, as well...
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

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And making the argument that you're an immortal god-king is easier when, y'know, you're an immortal much stronger than a human :)
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

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Broomstick's right. Even if a vampire God-King needed a daily sacrifice, that's easily within what a decently-sized society could get in captives from raids/wars with bordering kingdoms (the Aztecs did that on a larger scale). And if there's multiple vampiric God-Kings, then they'd all be do that - there'd just be a constant low-level warfare going on at the periphery, occasionally escalating into larger wars.

Our vampire could claim that it's necessary for him/her to devour a captive tied to an altar in the late night so that "our brother/sister the Sun can be reborn again" and bring the day.
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

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One problem with a wide-scale masquerade is before modern times, if some individual or small group of supernaturals didn't like it, they could simply move somewhere else and it'd be months or years before the supernaturals in their homeland ever heard of it- if at all.
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

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Q99 wrote:One problem with a wide-scale masquerade is before modern times, if some individual or small group of supernaturals didn't like it, they could simply move somewhere else and it'd be months or years before the supernaturals in their homeland ever heard of it- if at all.
Yes, but it also works in reverse: without mechanized vehicles and industrial infrastructure, the spread of a rouge state would be slow and limited extensively. If a rouge state goes on the move, it's ability to hide without leaving tracks would become limited. Unless there is mayor technology imparity, the rouge state would suffer from limitations just as much as the enforcer. If anything, an enforcer with a large empire backing him would be able to compensate more (via more expensive resources such as messenger birds) than a rouge state would.
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Re: Justifications for the Masquerade

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Zixinus wrote: Yes, but it also works in reverse: without mechanized vehicles and industrial infrastructure, the spread of a rouge state would be slow and limited extensively. If a rouge state goes on the move, it's ability to hide without leaving tracks would become limited. Unless there is mayor technology imparity, the rouge state would suffer from limitations just as much as the enforcer. If anything, an enforcer with a large empire backing him would be able to compensate more (via more expensive resources such as messenger birds) than a rouge state would.
If they leave and go somewhere else, that somewhere else could easily be another empire or kingdom that's not easy to knock over.

The ability for these non-masquerade states to form means you'll have a number of them- and if some empire that has a masquerade goes after them, well, they have a reason to work together against that, and it softens the masquerade of that empire by putting it into contact with non-masquerade cultures and supernaturals.
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