The Most Immoral Character in Harry Potter

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Eternal_Freedom
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Re: The Most Immoral Character in Harry Potter

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Given how long Flamel has lived, and that magical knowledge in the HP setting has been lost (some wards on Hogwarts for example are said to be impossible to recreate) it is possible either the exact knowledge of how to make the Stone has either been lost, suppressed or deliberately destroyed by individuals (possibly Flamel himself as a way to eliminate competition or to enhance his reputation as the only known maker).

Certainly other Stones have been made: Flamel is called the only known maker and the titular stone is the "only one known to currently exist." So either he discovered it and kept the method to himself but made more than one over his 600 year life, or he was the most recent stone-maker and for whatever reason no one else has made one since.

Or at least, no one else currently alive knows how to make it.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
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Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
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Re: The Most Immoral Character in Harry Potter

Post by Elheru Aran »

Eternal_Freedom wrote: Or at least, no one else currently alive knows how to make it.
Probably the latter; Dumbledore seems to think so at the conclusion of Sorcerer's Stone, or at least that was the impression I got. Of course it's been a long time since I read that book...
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Re: The Most Immoral Character in Harry Potter

Post by Crazedwraith »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Given how long Flamel has lived, and that magical knowledge in the HP setting has been lost (some wards on Hogwarts for example are said to be impossible to recreate) it is possible either the exact knowledge of how to make the Stone has either been lost, suppressed or deliberately destroyed by individuals (possibly Flamel himself as a way to eliminate competition or to enhance his reputation as the only known maker).

Certainly other Stones have been made: Flamel is called the only known maker and the titular stone is the "only one known to currently exist." So either he discovered it and kept the method to himself but made more than one over his 600 year life, or he was the most recent stone-maker and for whatever reason no one else has made one since.

Or at least, no one else currently alive knows how to make it.
Flamel's lifespan raises some interesting questions. He was in the region of 600 years old when he died and Dumbledore was around 100. So Flamel must have figured out the stone long before meeting Dumbledore and yet he and Dumbledore were noted for working on Alchemy together.

Either knowledge was lost, Flamel accidentally created the stone, or the process needed some revision/perfection before it could be used on a large scale. It could be it was not possible for the create more, although he did stockpile enough for him and his wife for the best part of a year plus time enough to settle their affairs.

I also wonder if the Elixir of Life was also a cure all. If you had some agonising lethal condition and took it. Would be cured, or just be prevented from tying from it. Say Cancer. Would it remove the tumors or just leave you with them and in pain but just not dying? Might not be the blessing we think.

On the other hand, It could apparently be used to create a whole new body for Voldemort. So that would point more towards a cures what ails you sort of thing.
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Re: The Most Immoral Character in Harry Potter

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

I laid out the argument that it's a cure-all earlier in the thread - it clearly has to have some rejuvenating/healing effect otherwise Flamel and his wife would be extremely frail physically after 650 years of aging. Granted wizards seem to live longer in good health anyway (Dumbledore being the prime example) but even saying wizards live twice as long and/or age half as slowly would still make Flamel equivalent to a 300 year old normal human. Given how much humans deteriorate physically (and mentally, sadly) past 80-90, aging to 300 would leave them as husks at best.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
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Re: The Most Immoral Character in Harry Potter

Post by Gandalf »

Perhaps the other stones were destroyed/hidden by the Inner Party Ministry of Magic in order to keep the process away from other wizards?
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Re: The Most Immoral Character in Harry Potter

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Giving the world immortality is such a dangerous and radical concept that I could not call someone immoral only for refusing to indulge in its implications. At least not if they already lived 650 years old, meaning he was a teenager during the early stages of the 100 years war! I can see him having an utterly immense list of valid reasons why people should NOT be allowed to live forever. Modern civilization might undermine that, but if he's already lived 650 years it sounds like entitlement to wait another century make sure were really past having another Hitler King. What with nuclear weapons and all that.
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Re: The Most Immoral Character in Harry Potter

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

AS I've said before, I am not arguing that Flamel is immoral for withholding immortality from everyone but rather the Elixir which logically must act as a cure-all potion and which when drunk regularly makes you immortal.

Yes, making everyone immortal, including the bad guys is a terrible idea. But having a cure-all potion that could save countless thousands of innocent lives from either death or permenant debilitating conditions (like Neville's parents) and not using it in such a manner is a different thing.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
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Re: The Most Immoral Character in Harry Potter

Post by Crazedwraith »

Eternal_Freedom wrote: Yes, making everyone immortal, including the bad guys is a terrible idea. But having a cure-all potion that could save countless thousands of innocent lives from either death or permenant debilitating conditions (<B>like Neville's parents</B>) and not using it in such a manner is a different thing.
Neville's parents were insane. Even if you accept that it's a healing potion. (and Age freeze is something I'd considered distinct from healing), it's not going to heal mental illness.
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Re: The Most Immoral Character in Harry Potter

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Crazedwraith wrote:
Eternal_Freedom wrote: Yes, making everyone immortal, including the bad guys is a terrible idea. But having a cure-all potion that could save countless thousands of innocent lives from either death or permenant debilitating conditions (<B>like Neville's parents</B>) and not using it in such a manner is a different thing.
Neville's parents were insane. Even if you accept that it's a healing potion. (and Age freeze is something I'd considered distinct from healing), it's not going to heal mental illness.
Fair point, but those were the only long-term debilitating conditions I could think of at short notice.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
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Re: The Most Immoral Character in Harry Potter

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Crazedwraith wrote:Flamel's lifespan raises some interesting questions. He was in the region of 600 years old when he died and Dumbledore was around 100. So Flamel must have figured out the stone long before meeting Dumbledore and yet he and Dumbledore were noted for working on Alchemy together.

Either knowledge was lost, Flamel accidentally created the stone, or the process needed some revision/perfection before it could be used on a large scale. It could be it was not possible for the create more, although he did stockpile enough for him and his wife for the best part of a year plus time enough to settle their affairs.
Alternatively, the Stone doesn't represent perfect knowledge of alchemy, and Dumbledore is such a great wizard that he can actually contribute meaningfully to the research of someone who has five hundred years more experience than he does.

If Sir Isaac Newton had created the Philosopher's Stone and lived into modern times (he tried, as I recall), and if some great 20th century physicist had collaborated with him on a research project and helped him meaningfully, we couldn't use that to conclude "knowledge of science has been lost."
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Re: The Most Immoral Character in Harry Potter

Post by Crazedwraith »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:Flamel's lifespan raises some interesting questions. He was in the region of 600 years old when he died and Dumbledore was around 100. So Flamel must have figured out the stone long before meeting Dumbledore and yet he and Dumbledore were noted for working on Alchemy together.

Either knowledge was lost, Flamel accidentally created the stone, or the process needed some revision/perfection before it could be used on a large scale. It could be it was not possible for the create more, although he did stockpile enough for him and his wife for the best part of a year plus time enough to settle their affairs.
Alternatively, the Stone doesn't represent perfect knowledge of alchemy, and Dumbledore is such a great wizard that he can actually contribute meaningfully to the research of someone who has five hundred years more experience than he does.

If Sir Isaac Newton had created the Philosopher's Stone and lived into modern times (he tried, as I recall), and if some great 20th century physicist had collaborated with him on a research project and helped him meaningfully, we couldn't use that to conclude "knowledge of science has been lost."
Yeah, that was what I meant by 'or the process needed some revision/perfection'.
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Re: The Most Immoral Character in Harry Potter

Post by Simon_Jester »

Well, Dumbledore's collaboration with Flamel in alchemy was on dragon's blood or something. As far as we know, that had nothing whatsoever to do with the Philosopher's Stone, not directly.
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Re: The Most Immoral Character in Harry Potter

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Simon_Jester wrote:Well, Dumbledore's collaboration with Flamel in alchemy was on dragon's blood or something. As far as we know, that had nothing whatsoever to do with the Philosopher's Stone, not directly.
Dragon's blood was separate research iirc not done with Flammel.

And a Philosopher's stone is pretty much the pinnacle of Alchemy.
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Re: The Most Immoral Character in Harry Potter

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Eternal_Freedom wrote:AS I've said before, I am not arguing that Flamel is immoral for withholding immortality from everyone but rather the Elixir which logically must act as a cure-all potion and which when drunk regularly makes you immortal.

Yes, making everyone immortal, including the bad guys is a terrible idea. But having a cure-all potion that could save countless thousands of innocent lives from either death or permenant debilitating conditions (like Neville's parents) and not using it in such a manner is a different thing.
Every wizard worth a damn in that universe could save thousands of lives any manner of ways, you're just trying to dodge the issue the real issue with hair splitting, and splitting that we can't even know is valid. The potion might need regular dosages for decades to have any effect on long term health conditions which themselves take years to manifest. It also may well be incapable of curing many diseases. It does not need to be a cure all, it needs to stop genetic aging, and cure problems this person specifically would have, anything past that is guess work. A damn lot of people don't die from heart disease or cancer or the like, they only die because their immune system weakens from natural aging until an infection can kill them. This potion need not be anywhere near as powerful as you seem to assume it must be. But it certainly could make evil people live forever on that basis.
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Re: The Most Immoral Character in Harry Potter

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Yeah, I am well aware that every wizard in the setting could save thousands of lives but doesnt, that isn't in question. Most of those wizards will justify itto themselves as keeping the Statute of Secrecy, or that muggles aren't worth saving, or just not interacting with muggles enough to notice what goes on.

Flamel, on the other hand, has the (potential) abilityto save thousands of wizards and witches over his lifetime, and saving magical people is sometihng the wizarding world takes more seriously.

As for your comments ont he elixir not being as powerful as I initially surmised, that is possible. However, the Elixir is said to make the drinker immortal, not unaging. Immortal, meaning you never die as long as you keep drinking it regularly. Which implies it must have some strong restorative properties,unless you really want to argue that Flamel and his wife never contracted any serious illness or suffered any major injuries in their 640+ years of life.

Finally, the Elixir has to be more powerful than a potion that stop aging, otherwise it would be no damn use to Voldemort would it? Voldemort, Dumbledore and presumably Flamel himself all believe the stone is worth the effort for Voldemort to steal. IIRC Dumbledore even says to Harry, after the Stone is destroyed, that Voldemort will have to find another way to return.

Thus, the Elixir is considerably more powerful than just halting aging.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
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