DC's Legends of Tomorrow

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DC's Legends of Tomorrow

Post by Tsyroc »

I was wondering if anyone else has managed to watch this show for most or all of the season?


The IMDB consensus seems to be that it is pretty bad and/or most of the characters are idiots/unlikeable. I am kind of vaguely in agreement.

White Canary, Captain Cold, and Heat Wave are generally considered to be the best, most consistent characters. I pretty much agree with that, even if I still have some issues with the actor's choice for how he speaks as Captain Cold (Leonard Snart).


As for the rest of the characters.

Rip Hunter: Kind of a dick and not that good as a captain. He is a Time Master and most of them are looking to be dicks too.

Ray Palmer: Nice guy, but man have they made him a boneheaded jackass in this show. He's essentially Hank Pym (Giant Man/Ant-man) crossed with Iron Man, but prone to being overly nerdy and doing stupid shit even when he should know better. He did have one of the best fights of the season though.

Kendra Saunders (aka Hawkgirl / Priestess Shayera): Oh holy crap did they fuck this one up. The actress nominally looks like Kendra Saunders in the comics but the character is such a wuss and not like either Shayera Hall or Kendra Saunders in the comics.

Carter Hall (aka Hawkman / Prince Kufu): I guess he is okay but to me they really botched how they did the Hawks in this show and how they are tying them to Vandal Savage. As he is, he's kind of a tool. He had some nominally okay moments in the "pilot" crossover of Arrow/The Flash but generally I don't care for him mutch.

Vandal Savage: Pretty good as a villain despite the decision to link him to the hawks. Fairly well cast, although I keep wishing he was more like the animated version in Young Justice.

Sara Lance (aka White Canary): One of the more consistent characters who generally doesn't do anything more boneheaded than the average person. Which puts her up on most of the other characters. One of the major plusses, and why she's a much better Canary than her "sister" over in Arrow, is that the actress and/or her stunt double, can really sell the action scenes. She doesn't wear her White Canary outfit often and apparently a fair amount of people don't like the dirty roughed up leather look of the suit. I don't mind it though.

Heatwave (Mich Rory): I thought he was played a bit over the top (same with his partner Captain Cold) but by the end he's one of the best characters. One thing that is really annoying, and this applies to Cold as well, is that his heat gun tends to be a generic blaster most of the time.

Captain Cold (Leonard Snart): A good character and good friend to Heatwave. I'm not crazy about how the actor delivers his lines but apparently that's how he's going to do them. Like with Heatwave I find it annoying that his special weapon isn't all that special most of the time.

Firestorm: Jefferson Jackson and Professor Martin Stein - Most of the time both of these characters are okay. Most recently Stein pulled an absolute boneheaded move that was almost Palmeresk in it's stupidity, but otherwise they've been decent as a pair. My main problem with Firestorm is how little they become Firestorm. We are talking all sorts of excuses to the point of ridiculousness. However, my main problem with Firestorm is that they are using him as a second rate version of the Human Torch. He looks cool as all hell but all he does is fly and shoot/throw fireballs. I'm not even sure that was originally one of Firestorm's powers (it certainly was later). He was always about transmuting things and phasing through solid objects while having an internal discussion between his two selves. It is such a waste having this character on this team if they are going to use him so little and also have a character who has a gun that does essentially the same things they usually have Firestorm do.

Waverider: The name of Ripp Hunter's time ship. It's pretty cool inside and out, but I can't help feeling that the lack of SFX for many of the characters is because they are using it for the ship in every episode. Heatwave's gun rarely burns or sets fire to anything. Captain Cold's cold gun does cold stuff even less, except for one time which is a spoiler.
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Re: DC's Legends of Tomorrow

Post by FaxModem1 »

I've been keeping up with it, as I seem to be the forum's resident(and I think 'only' sometimes) Arrowverse fan. Essentially, if Rip Hunter and company took more than five minutes to plan out what they were going to do, especially as how they are in a freaking time machine, they could achieve a lot more. The show's biggest weakness is the writing, and while it wants to show all these different eras and places, and show us how different they are, the show stays rather tame in its portrayal of what it can do, mostly due to not having the budget or set design capability to do so.

Personally, I think this is due to stretching a creative staff across three shows. We saw something similar when Joss Whedon and company were stretched by doing Angel, Buffy and Firefly all at the same time. The show could be much better, and has the potential to be, but until they sharpen their writing, I don't think its going to happen.
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Re: DC's Legends of Tomorrow

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FaxModem1 wrote:I've been keeping up with it, as I seem to be the forum's resident(and I think 'only' sometimes) Arrowverse fan. Essentially, if Rip Hunter and company took more than five minutes to plan out what they were going to do, especially as how they are in a freaking time machine, they could achieve a lot more. The show's biggest weakness is the writing, and while it wants to show all these different eras and places, and show us how different they are, the show stays rather tame in its portrayal of what it can do, mostly due to not having the budget or set design capability to do so.

Personally, I think this is due to stretching a creative staff across three shows. We saw something similar when Joss Whedon and company were stretched by doing Angel, Buffy and Firefly all at the same time. The show could be much better, and has the potential to be, but until they sharpen their writing, I don't think its going to happen.

If it makes you feel any better I've been watching all the "Arrowverse" shows for the last couple years now. I came (back) onboard a little late because I got annoyed with early first season Arrow but have since backtracked through the seasons I generally enjoy that show and Flash.

I agree that the "problems" the shows are having do seem similar to what you mention about the Whedon shows. Not that I have problems with The Flash, or even Arrow despite there apparently being a lot of people who don't like this season. My only problem with that show is that it would be nice if something good happened to the Arrow crew and stuck for awhile. :)
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Re: DC's Legends of Tomorrow

Post by DesertFly »

I have watched all three shows from their respective beginnings (though I wonder why sometimes after the first couple of seasons of Arrow, and because I never really got into Flash). This has definitely been my favorite so far, despite the fact that the characters have been quite stupid on a regular basis. I think the fact that it is set on a spaceship is enough to somewhat scratch my sci-fi itch, and I love the random time periods they jump to. The old west was by far my favorite, despite, or because of the mountain of cliches they used. Hey, you can't go to cowboy times without a fight in a saloon, an evil gang, and a showdown in the street, right?
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Re: DC's Legends of Tomorrow

Post by Batman »

While the characters can be pretty stupid at times (even by superhero standards) I find the show quite enjoyable. I like the Dr Who meets DC flair, and I especially like what they're doing with Rory/Snart.
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Re: DC's Legends of Tomorrow

Post by Broomstick »

Tsyroc wrote:I was wondering if anyone else has managed to watch this show for most or all of the season?
Yes, yes I have. I've been enjoying it even though I agree with a lot of the plot criticisms mentioned.

My favorite is Snart (Capt. Cold), even though I, too, am not thrilled with the actor's vocal affectations. Even so, I think his character is the strongest and most intelligent of the lot.

This week's episode actually has an in-story explanation for some of the idiot-ball moments. That, combined with the fact that these folks were chosen because according to history they're all second-stringers/obscure/unknown at least makes some sense, even if it doesn't make for great TV.

White Canary, Captain Cold, and Heat Wave are generally considered to be the best, most consistent characters. I pretty much agree with that, even if I still have some issues with the actor's choice for how he speaks as Captain Cold (Leonard Snart).
Rip Hunter: Kind of a dick and not that good as a captain. He is a Time Master and most of them are looking to be dicks too.
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And the Time Masters strike me as a version of the Time Lords, why, by the way, were also consummate dicks. Actually, the chief Time Master made me think of some champion asshat Time Lords like the recent regenerations of Rassilon. For awhile I was worried that this would turn into the American version of Doctor Who

It didn't.

Part of the problem with the writing is that VERY few people are good at writing time travel stories that work, and even fewer of those write for TV. Steven Moffat, despite some other deep flaws as a writer, at least has a grasp on some of the tricksy aspects of time travel stories, such that during his time on Doctor Who time travel was part of the long arcs of the series. You may not like River Song, but her convoluted time line is an example of actual time travel writing.

Anyhow, I digress... DCLoT is a series where time travel aspects aren't, in my opinion, that well written into the long arcs of the story. That's the point.
Kendra Saunders (aka Hawkgirl / Priestess Shayera): Oh holy crap did they fuck this one up. The actress nominally looks like Kendra Saunders in the comics but the character is such a wuss and not like either Shayera Hall or Kendra Saunders in the comics.
Honestly, I feel sorry for the actress. This is not a well-written character.
Vandal Savage: Pretty good as a villain despite the decision to link him to the hawks. Fairly well cast, although I keep wishing he was more like the animated version in Young Justice.
Savage is one of the better written characters... but that's a low bar in this show.
Sara Lance (aka White Canary): One of the more consistent characters who generally doesn't do anything more boneheaded than the average person. Which puts her up on most of the other characters. One of the major plusses, and why she's a much better Canary than her "sister" over in Arrow, is that the actress and/or her stunt double, can really sell the action scenes.
Caity Lotz does her own stunts. She's a dancer and a martial artist. If you like her as an actress check her out in the title role in The Machine where she plays a very different character.

The Heatwave and Captain Cold characters really are two of the best on the show, which is hilarious given they're the "bad guys". Their interactions, and their interactions with the rest of the crew, are a big part of why I like the show.
Firestorm: Jefferson Jackson and Professor Martin Stein - Most of the time both of these characters are okay. Most recently Stein pulled an absolute boneheaded move that was almost Palmeresk in it's stupidity, but otherwise they've been decent as a pair. My main problem with Firestorm is how little they become Firestorm. We are talking all sorts of excuses to the point of ridiculousness. However, my main problem with Firestorm is that they are using him as a second rate version of the Human Torch. He looks cool as all hell but all he does is fly and shoot/throw fireballs. I'm not even sure that was originally one of Firestorm's powers (it certainly was later). He was always about transmuting things and phasing through solid objects while having an internal discussion between his two selves. It is such a waste having this character on this team if they are going to use him so little and also have a character who has a gun that does essentially the same things they usually have Firestorm do.
I think the Firestorm effects are hard on the effects budget. Phasing through objects would be even more so. Although I did like the recent episode's handshake/high five entry into a merge, that was cool.

I do like that the two men get to be heros as regular folks as well as the merged entity firestorm, although even as separate individuals they have the "power" to resist radiation of all sorts.

The biggest problem for the show, though, is they suffer from a one goal/villain problem. Once they get Savage... what's left? It's hard to do a long-term series starting with that premise. Although I thought they had been renewed for a second season...?
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Re: DC's Legends of Tomorrow

Post by General Zod »

I tried giving it a go, but the first couple episodes were really uninspired and there just wasn't anything to keep me around.
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Re: DC's Legends of Tomorrow

Post by Kojiro »

Is there some reason they can't simply imprison Savage? Like just rock up, gun him down and then put his corpse in a block of concrete? I mean we've *seen* them kill him. He comes back to life sure but is there some reason I missed his corpse can't just be contained somewhere? They killed him then just left him there...
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Re: DC's Legends of Tomorrow

Post by FaxModem1 »

"Because then there'd be no show."

Honestly, the fact that they gave up on trying to take out Vandal's finances after one attempt shows their poor judgement.
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Re: DC's Legends of Tomorrow

Post by Tsyroc »

Broomstick wrote: This week's episode actually has an in-story explanation for some of the idiot-ball moments. That, combined with the fact that these folks were chosen because according to history they're all second-stringers/obscure/unknown at least makes some sense, even if it doesn't make for great TV.
I did like this week's episode.

The stuff with the team, the Time Masters, and even the time travel with Jefferson and the Professor were all good.

It also helped that there wasn't much with Savage and the Hawks.
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Re: DC's Legends of Tomorrow

Post by Joun_Lord »

I've watched the show consistently and I've enjoyed it. Its a flawed show in many ways but a fun one, something I've had a problem with Arrow, and most of the characters are interesting.

As others have said the characters can be really stoopid especially when it comes to stopping Savage. There is alot of moments they could have stopped him even if they couldn't kill him. They have a time machine slash space ship, pop a round in the back of his head and chuck him into the sun while he's regenerating. Take him forward to the year 5 billion and 6 and kick his ass out onto the cold dead Earth, maybe he'll read some self help books and turn into a pretty cool dude (I wonder if anyone will get that reference). Even if they can't kill him they certainly can contain him to the point he never is again a threat.

Not thinking outside the box when it comes to killing Savage aside, some of the characters are great. Captain Cold is excellent, White Canary is interesting, Jefferson is probably the most intelligent and Stein tends to be the most human. But the best character is without a doubt Heatwave. He's funny, interesting, and nuanced. He seems like a big dumb psycho but he's like a ogrion, he's got layers. He's probably had the largest growth out of all the characters.

The other characters have their moments but are iffy. Hunter is.....well an idiot. He seems to be hoping around randomly and not actually taking advantage of their chances to stop Savage. He also seemed to miss the fact the people he worked for were evil. I called they'd be the main bad guys in the first episode and I was kinda right. That was even before the introduced people like the time erasing assassin and the death squad people. People Hunter should have known about.

The Hawk people are meh. Kendra has moments of interest but is mostly constantly talking about how she worked at a coffee shop and remembering crap. Carter is mostly not there and thats a good thing. I find him really fucking douchey, like a pushy ex-boyfriend type. You know, the type that feels like they own a woman because they dated before. He acted like that towards Kendra, I almost expected him to try to date rape her.

Overall the show is decent. One of the better comic book shows on tv, not as good as Flash but better then Arrow. Can't even compare to Agent Carter (rip) or Daredevil but is still leagues better then Agents of Shield and Gotham in my opinion.

I look forward to its second season assuming it gets one.
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Re: DC's Legends of Tomorrow

Post by Elheru Aran »

Joun_Lord wrote: The Hawk people are meh. Kendra has moments of interest but is mostly constantly talking about how she worked at a coffee shop and remembering crap. Carter is mostly not there and thats a good thing. I find him really fucking douchey, like a pushy ex-boyfriend type. You know, the type that feels like they own a woman because they dated before. He acted like that towards Kendra, I almost expected him to try to date rape her.
Haven't watched the show in question, but a point on this specifically:

This is something that has come up in recent years with the Hawks in their various incarnations (ironically enough such an appropriate term in this case). Generally one or the other will have all the memories of their past, which means they have feelings towards the other which tend to not be reciprociated, or it's utterly awkward cause it's all 'um so we were an item, weren't we'. Carter tends to be rather more aggressive in this regard than Kendra/Shayera. There is definitely a history of awkward incidents with them. It's no wonder this would be echoed in the show.
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Re: DC's Legends of Tomorrow

Post by Tsyroc »

Joun_Lord wrote:I've watched the show consistently and I've enjoyed it. Its a flawed show in many ways but a fun one, something I've had a problem with Arrow, and most of the characters are interesting.

As others have said the characters can be really stoopid especially when it comes to stopping Savage. There is alot of moments they could have stopped him even if they couldn't kill him. They have a time machine slash space ship, pop a round in the back of his head and chuck him into the sun while he's regenerating. Take him forward to the year 5 billion and 6 and kick his ass out onto the cold dead Earth, maybe he'll read some self help books and turn into a pretty cool dude (I wonder if anyone will get that reference). Even if they can't kill him they certainly can contain him to the point he never is again a threat.
I liked that episode of the Justice League. Superman and Vandal Savage as best bros. :)

Yeah, they should at least try sticking him someplace or time where he can't do any harm. Something like that might work now that the Time Masters can't manipulate things to the extent that they were.

There also hasn't really been a payoff for Malcolm Merlin collecting some Vandal Savage dust in the Arrow/Flash crossover. I keep waiting for that to matter in one of the shows.


I've wondered a bit if taking the Hawks time traveling would mess with Vandal's immortality or the Hawks' reincarnation? If they were going to do something along those lines they could have done it when he killed 2016 Carter in a different time.
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