Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

FAN: Discuss various fictional worlds that don't qualify for SF.

Moderator: Steve

Post Reply
User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7700
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by FaxModem1 »

Superheroes, for the most part, exist with the real person, and the costume. Superman is the costume, Clark Kent is the real person. Spider-man is the costume, Peter Parker is the real person. Etc. There are exceptions, Bruce Wayne is the costume, as Batman is the real identity, Wonder Woman, Namor, and Aquaman have no secret identity, and the costume is just a title.

So, what does this mean for their romantic lives? More often than not, it's this big secret that they keep away from their significant others, until it is revealed. Lois & Clark got quite a few seasons out of Lois not knowing that Clark was Superman, but dating Clark all the same. Spider-man's storylines are usually about his dating life as Peter Parker. However, what about the reverse?

in the DC Animated Universe, Lois Lane never finds out that Clark Kent is Superman. This wouldn't be a problem, but as revealed in Justice League Unlimited, Lois and Superman have a dating relationship to the extent that they have romantic picnics together. In this, Clark is making the choice to date the woman he's been pining for by presenting only an image of who he is, not his true personality. It makes one wonder if he just decided to give up on trying to have a fulfilling life as Clark Kent, and only focus on the Superman persona he engages as while on the clock.

In the video game adaptation of Spider-man 2(the 2004 Sam Raimi movie), instead of having Peter Parker abandon his commitment as Spider-man, and pursue civilian life fully, they go the opposite track with the story, and have Spider-man abandon his life as Peter Parker altogether, and pursue being a crime fighter 24/7, while also dating Black Cat, whose interest in him is only as Spider-man, not as who he is underneath.

Batman, of course, romantically pursues Catwoman, and seemingly only while they're both on the job. Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle being together in their civilian guises seems to never be as real

This is also briefly touched on in Justice League: Year One, in which Black Canary briefly considers dating the Flash, utterly in costume, until its revealed that he is engaged, which nixes their romantic pursuit of each other.

So, what are the meanings of this? What does this say about these characters? Is this planned out on the writers part or unintended consequences for their focusing on a solely costumed relationship? Should a superhero abandon their life as their original person, and only be the costume?
Image
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12211
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by Lord Revan »

I think part of it is that a lot writers don't seem to be able to write close relationship that know the hero's secret identity (unless it's essentially an open secret anyway) so you got things like Peter Parker somehow being able to keep his secret identity from Aunt May or his primary civilian love intrest both who should know Peter Parker intimately enough to pick minor details and mannerism to identify Spider Man even in costume. You also get things like the hero being dishonest about his identity to these people to not end in the situation where you got a person who is in close relationship with the hero and "in-the-know" about his/her secret identity.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28718
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by Broomstick »

[Nitpick] With Superman it depends on the writer/series whether it's Superman who is the costume or Clark Kent. In Lois and Clark Kal El said "Superman is what I do, Clark is who I am". Towards the end of Smallville same dude deliberately cultivated the Clark Kent persona as a disguise and his real identity is Superman. In the comic books it varies depending on whose writing him, which version, what year, and apparently the phase of the moon. So he's not really a good example in one sense, given that it's not entirely clear which identity is the real one. [/nitpick]
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by Simon_Jester »

I think it's fairly consistent that Clark is Kal-El's personality as distinct from his powers.

The real variable is, if that's how he acts with no powers, is that who he "really" is?

Or is he "really" the person he acts like given that he actually possesses all this power- the Superman?
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12211
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by Lord Revan »

IIRC with Superman you basically get 3 princible variants, "superman is the real personality", "Clark Kent is the real personality" or "neither is the real personality and real person is somewhere between Superman and Clark Kent personalities"
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
User avatar
Khaat
Jedi Master
Posts: 1032
Joined: 2008-11-04 11:42am

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by Khaat »

My read is that the writers have some ideas of where they want to build dramatic tension, so in/out of costume is just another toggle.

Any super/meta/whatever who doesn't "hang it out there" and let their SO know what they are and do is being dishonest. Building that for dramatic tension: just another toggle the writers use to pressure the character. They have villains to beat them up, they don't need family/friends to do it!

The only time I've seen the extended-secret reveal work in a suitable fashion (addressing the deception and feelings of betrayal) was in Mr & Mrs Smith.

More contemporary tv shows (Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl) have been the "so who doesn't know you're the ___ ?" type. But even those have kept someone in the dark, for whatever reason they do.

Should they hang up civilian life/the cape? I don't think so, but they should be honest with the folks that will be affected by what they're doing, either way. Y'know, unless it turns out the fiancee is the son of the villain killed at the end of season 1....
Rule #1: Believe the autocrat. He means what he says.
Rule #2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule #3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule #4: Be outraged.
Rule #5: Don’t make compromises.
User avatar
Crown
NARF
Posts: 10615
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:45am
Location: In Transit ...

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by Crown »

Broomstick wrote:[Nitpick] With Superman it depends on the writer/series whether it's Superman who is the costume or Clark Kent. In Lois and Clark Kal El said "Superman is what I do, Clark is who I am". Towards the end of Smallville same dude deliberately cultivated the Clark Kent persona as a disguise and his real identity is Superman. In the comic books it varies depending on whose writing him, which version, what year, and apparently the phase of the moon. So he's not really a good example in one sense, given that it's not entirely clear which identity is the real one. [/nitpick]
I don't think you're nitpicking at all, I agree 100% with that.
FaxModem1 wrote:So, what are the meanings of this? What does this say about these characters? Is this planned out on the writers part or unintended consequences for their focusing on a solely costumed relationship? Should a superhero abandon their life as their original person, and only be the costume?
If you look at Snyder's Superman in MoS and BvS, he's quite clearly using Clark as the 'real person' and Superman as the 'persona' that Clark is trying to create. He's also sidestepped the usual schtick of Lois falling in love with 'the Superman' and not Clark and flipped it on its head by having Lois be in love with Clark but her questioning if she's endangering 'the Superman' persona; "I just don't think its possible for you [Clark] to be you [the Superman] and still love me".

It causes a strain on Clark when she goes to clear the Superman's name investigating the bullet she brought back from Africa after he emphatically told her he didn't care what people were saying about the Superman which leaves him a bit untethered in her absence.

The way I see it (in the Snyder-verse) it's is like this; Martha Kent only cares about Clark, she tolerates the Superman persona if that's what makes Clark happy but she would be just as happy if he wasn't the Superman at all. Lois loves Clark, but recognises the purpose behind the Superman and that Clark's protectiveness of her can put the Superman in compromising situations. Clark meanwhile is torn between living up to his potential, the promise he feels he should fulfil to his dead father(s) and at the same time the construct of the Superman which is necessary for him to have some kind of normality with Lois is being torn from his grasp before he can even cement what it is.
Image
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
User avatar
Purple
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5233
Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by Purple »

Personally I am a fan of the Kill Bill interpretation. Superman is the person. Clark Kent is what Superman creates when he wants to impersonate humans. So in effect Clark is what a human looks like when viewed through the eyes of Superman.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12211
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by Lord Revan »

Purple wrote:Personally I am a fan of the Kill Bill interpretation. Superman is the person. Clark Kent is what Superman creates when he wants to impersonate humans. So in effect Clark is what a human looks like when viewed through the eyes of Superman.
That interpretation works for some versions of Superman, but not for example for the DCAU version as we see Superman among those that know the secret indentity and while not as dorky as the public Clark Kent persona in private he isn't quite the "cool and always in charge" Superman public persona either.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7700
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by FaxModem1 »

That Kill Bill interpretation also isn't true comic wise, as Superman being Kal El and Clark being his 'critique on the human race' ended with the end of the Silver Age, and only seems to be true with those who only know the pop culture version of the character, and haven't read a comic about him since the 1980s, in much the same way that conservatives were shocked that Steve Rogers as Captain America takes rather liberal positions on political matters.

It also takes a rather harsh lens on Superman, and views him as someone so petty and vindictive as to mock the very people he's saving by pointing out all their flaws in a passive aggressive manner because he thinks them beneath him.
Image
User avatar
Crown
NARF
Posts: 10615
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:45am
Location: In Transit ...

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by Crown »

FaxModem1 wrote:That Kill Bill interpretation also isn't true comic wise, as Superman being Kal El and Clark being his 'critique on the human race' ended with the end of the Silver Age, and only seems to be true with those who only know the pop culture version of the character, and haven't read a comic about him since the 1980s, in much the same way that conservatives were shocked that Steve Rogers as Captain America takes rather liberal positions on political matters.

It also takes a rather harsh lens on Superman, and views him as someone so petty and vindictive as to mock the very people he's saving by pointing out all their flaws in a passive aggressive manner because he thinks them beneath him.
I think Grant Morrison's All Star Superman took that view though didn't it? And while you did specify 'comic wise' Smallville certainly ended its TV run in the 'Kill Bill thesis' vein (and from what I've read of Season 11 in the comics).
Image
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
User avatar
Purple
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5233
Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by Purple »

FaxModem1 wrote:and only seems to be true with those who only know the pop culture version of the character
That's me.
It also takes a rather harsh lens on Superman, and views him as someone so petty and vindictive as to mock the very people he's saving by pointing out all their flaws in a passive aggressive manner because he thinks them beneath him.
Thing is we really are inferior to him in every way, shape and form. One of us looking up to superman is akin to an insect looking up at a person. And that sort of massive disparate is going to inevitably color perception.

Certainly he can appreciate the difference between an Olympic athlete and a quadriplegic grandma on an intellectual level. But on a base level that difference to him is just like you comparing the physical fitness of two insect specimens. So the versions of Clark where he is particularly useless compared to those where he is genuinely an interesting character* might to him be nigh identical on account of the fact that they are so massively outside of his natural reference frame.

PS. Do note that I am talking not about intellect understanding here but about the sort of base instinct level behavior that shapes our day to day lives. I can't imagine anyone, even Superman constantly consciously thinking about maintaining a persona so different from his own without ever falling into habit and doing things by feel rather than constant intellectual correction.

* I am going out on a limb and making an assumption that both exist. I could be wrong. But it still conveys the point anyway.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7700
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by FaxModem1 »

Purple wrote:Thing is we really are inferior to him in every way, shape and form. One of us looking up to superman is akin to an insect looking up at a person. And that sort of massive disparate is going to inevitably color perception.

Certainly he can appreciate the difference between an Olympic athlete and a quadriplegic grandma on an intellectual level. But on a base level that difference to him is just like you comparing the physical fitness of two insect specimens. So the versions of Clark where he is particularly useless compared to those where he is genuinely an interesting character* might to him be nigh identical on account of the fact that they are so massively outside of his natural reference frame.
Difference is, this person was raised by the insects, to the point where he identifies as an insect. It's also the reason why Post-Silver Age, he didn't really develop his powers until his teen years, so he already had at least a decade of living as a normal human.

This is also the reason Clark's reason for being in the newspaper business has changed since the 1930s. In the 1930s that was the fastest way to get news, so he worked at a newspaper to find out what disasters were happening, so he could act as Superman to stop them. Clark has evolved, where in the present day, even in the Nu-52 version, to genuinely enjoy writing as a journalist, and bringing the truth to people. It's also a field where he competes with people on a level playing field. It's not his ability to type a 40,000 words a minute, it's that he's competing as a reporter against people like Lois Lane.

A non-comic example of this would be the Superman: The Animated Series episode, "The Late Mr. Kent", in which Clark is investigating something, and wants to win something as Clark, not as his costumed identity of Superman. Which is why his character transformation in the DCAU is so odd. He's given up on romancing Lois as Clark, and does it as Superman. Maybe the invasions by Darkseid really made him reconsider his priorities as a person.
Image
User avatar
Purple
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5233
Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by Purple »

Yea, I think I'll just agree with you on account of a chronic lack of information on my part. My single largest exposure to the character is from a set of cartoons that I watched when I was a kid. And even those were the old, old ones. Like there was an episode where Lois gets captured by the IJN and he has to save her.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
Q99
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2105
Joined: 2015-05-16 01:33pm

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by Q99 »

I really liked the Wally West run of the Flash, where Wally was out publicly, and it's like, "Ok, you want to start something when he's in secret ID mode? He will literally be in costume before you can blink."

People don't always recognize him as Wally, but it's no secret, and all his friendsknow.

The Mark Waid Daredevil run was great. As-of that point, that he was DD had been outed, but he maintained he wasn't to have plausable deniability/so he could practice law. But he'd wear shirts that said, "I'm not Daredevil." He'd go to indoor rock climbing walls and freeclimb, using his blindness as an excuse on why he wasn't wearing a harness. He was so totally Daredevil and his romantic interest in the series knew it.

Purple wrote:Personally I am a fan of the Kill Bill interpretation. Superman is the person. Clark Kent is what Superman creates when he wants to impersonate humans. So in effect Clark is what a human looks like when viewed through the eyes of Superman.
I take the opposite. His primary formative influence is the Kent's, he's the farmboy who grew up.

Even when he's Superman, he's a farmboy who wants to help others. That he's physically really good at it doesn't change that he doesn't *view* himself as separate.
User avatar
Vendetta
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10895
Joined: 2002-07-07 04:57pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by Vendetta »

Purple wrote:Thing is we really are inferior to him in every way, shape and form. One of us looking up to superman is akin to an insect looking up at a person. And that sort of massive disparate is going to inevitably color perception.

Actually, not every way.

We have other people to have emotional connections to. He doesn't, because he's the last son of a dead world, there is nobody left like him in the entire universe (apart from maybe one cousin who actually has nothing in common with him because she's from a whole different planet).

Being Clark Kent, being an "ordinary" person, allows Kal-el to experience emotional connections with other people without his powers forming a barrier between him and them. Clark Kent is the life Kal-el wants, Superman is what he has to do because he's the only one who can.

Clark Kent is the thing that stops Superman from being Dr. Manhattan, emotionally paralysed and useless despite his power because he sees no reason to do anything ever.

Why do you think so many of the really critically acclaimed or popular stories include some element of "Superman gets to live normal person life", Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow ends with him permanently deowered and retired, For the Man Who Has Everything traps him in an illusion of living peacefully on Krypton, Superman II forces him to decide between being Clark all the time and being Superman despite him not wanting it (in a way that MoS totally didn't because he never makes that decision despite saying he's conflicted, he's always doing Superman).
User avatar
Purple
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5233
Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by Purple »

Vendetta wrote:Why do you think so many of the really critically acclaimed or popular stories include some element of "Superman gets to live normal person life", Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow ends with him permanently deowered and retired, For the Man Who Has Everything traps him in an illusion of living peacefully on Krypton, Superman II forces him to decide between being Clark all the time and being Superman despite him not wanting it (in a way that MoS totally didn't because he never makes that decision despite saying he's conflicted, he's always doing Superman).
I always thought that was simply to create drama by removing the unstoppable god from the picture for long enough to get the audience worried about the fate of the world.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
Ralin
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4321
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by Ralin »

FaxModem1 wrote:That Kill Bill interpretation also isn't true comic wise, as Superman being Kal El and Clark being his 'critique on the human race' ended with the end of the Silver Age, and only seems to be true with those who only know the pop culture version of the character, and haven't read a comic about him since the 1980s, in much the same way that conservatives were shocked that Steve Rogers as Captain America takes rather liberal positions on political matters.

It also takes a rather harsh lens on Superman, and views him as someone so petty and vindictive as to mock the very people he's saving by pointing out all their flaws in a passive aggressive manner because he thinks them beneath him.
I'm pretty sure that the point of the Kill Bill interpretation was that Bill was fucked up enough that he completely missed the point of Superman's character and took the exact opposite message from it that Superman's writers intended.
User avatar
Vendetta
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10895
Joined: 2002-07-07 04:57pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by Vendetta »

Purple wrote: I always thought that was simply to create drama by removing the unstoppable god from the picture for long enough to get the audience worried about the fate of the world.
That's possibly because you're not good at thinking about people as people.

Try thinking about plots in terms of who the characters are and what they want and need. You'll find you get a deeper understanding of what the work is about.
User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7700
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by FaxModem1 »

Ralin wrote:
FaxModem1 wrote:That Kill Bill interpretation also isn't true comic wise, as Superman being Kal El and Clark being his 'critique on the human race' ended with the end of the Silver Age, and only seems to be true with those who only know the pop culture version of the character, and haven't read a comic about him since the 1980s, in much the same way that conservatives were shocked that Steve Rogers as Captain America takes rather liberal positions on political matters.

It also takes a rather harsh lens on Superman, and views him as someone so petty and vindictive as to mock the very people he's saving by pointing out all their flaws in a passive aggressive manner because he thinks them beneath him.
I'm pretty sure that the point of the Kill Bill interpretation was that Bill was fucked up enough that he completely missed the point of Superman's character and took the exact opposite message from it that Superman's writers intended.
That could have been Quentin Tarintino's intention, or it could be his view on the Big Blue planted into the character, as Tarantino likes to rant about pop culture, such as in all of his works. Though, the point of the scene in general was to rant about what Beatrix Kiddo's inner personality really was. It would have been an easy fit to adapt the speech to make it about Batman, and still remain true to the character. I mostly use it as an example because Superman haters or people who only think they know the character think that's a valid interpretation, and parade it around.
Image
User avatar
Themightytom
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2818
Joined: 2007-12-22 11:11am
Location: United States

Re: Superhero vs Alter Ego dating life

Post by Themightytom »

Not to jump to out of universe expectations, but I think the complexity of superhero relationships has just been evolving over time. I mean some of the earlier animated series kind of gave the impression Superman thought fooling Lois made him superior, even in the Reeves movies it was pretty light hearted until suddenly she's jumping in Rivers or falling in a fire place. I think that kind of relationship acknowledges male female attraction without the personality dynamics of a real relationship, which requries trust. It's represented as a game really, hopefully because the target audience was younger, but when longer running TV series with complicated dynamics started taking on superheros, they needed a deeper dimension. Lois and Clark was very tongue in cheek but it DID have character growth and arcs, Smallville was pretty much a teen drama, so I always thought it came across as overly dramatic. The writers were doing different things for different audiences, so sometimes keeping a secret was humorous, other times it was depicted as a betrayal that was hurtful.

"Since when is "the west" a nation?"-Styphon
"ACORN= Cobra obviously." AMT
This topic is... oh Village Idiot. Carry on then.--Havok
Post Reply