Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

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ArmorPierce wrote:The lannisters had half of their army, which started off at 60,000, wiped out in the battle that Jamie Lannister was captured where he was commanding half their army. That battle alone wiped out half their army, and they presumably lost more during the siege of kings landing.
One battle and one siege are not enough to break such a professional army. Besides, those losses have probably been made up already.

ArmorPierce wrote:
And why would house Tyrell declare war? They were allied to the lannisters and their daughter was married to the queen. They had already come to the Lannister aid during the battle of kings landing, they presumably would once again if house Martel declared war, which was the weaker house among the bunch in the beginning anyway.

Now they have reason to but the Lannister army is back, which is why they are securing other alliances.
You misunderstand. Tyrell alone (even with Martell) is not enough to destroy House Lannister. So their forces - even after losing their army - is still strong enough to defeat them in the field.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

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ArmorPierce wrote:The question was posed why the Tyrells did not attack prior to this occurring, not post explosion at the temple caused by Cersie.
It really was not.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

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Ziggy Stardust wrote:Re: the discussions about the strength of the Lannister army ...

In episode 7 of this season, when Jaime first arrives at Riverrun and meets the Freys, he says, "You just allowed 8,000 men to approach unchallenged." Which means the army the Lannisters were able to field was not much more than what the Boltons were able to put together, which doesn't seem to say a whole lot for their ability to resist Dany's army.

Granted, this is only a lower limit. It seems reasonable to assume the Lannisters had some sort of force in place to defend against Dorne (though we haven't been given any information on what exactly is going on with that front, to be honest - we don't even know whether they are actively fighting or whether it was cold up until this last episode), plus some number of forces remaining in King's Landing. However, that said, since the target of that expedition was Riverrun, which is an infamous fortress being held by a respected Lord, it also seems reasonable to assume that they threw almost everything they had available at it, so I doubt you could say with confidence that this 8,000 represented less than, say, half of their total forces. But, really, we don't have enough information, at least going by the show. Not sure if the books are more explicit on Lannister strength in this time period?

8000 men is actually very respectable for a siege forces which also has a lot of freys in it. Siege forces tend to be a bit smller than campaigning armies anyway as they have to be supplied for longer.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

Post by ArmorPierce »

Thanas wrote:
ArmorPierce wrote:The question was posed why the Tyrells did not attack prior to this occurring, not post explosion at the temple caused by Cersie.
It really was not.
By that point the Lannister army was on its way back to Kings Landing and reached Kings landing by the time of Cersei's crowning, so the Tyrells would not have had an opportunity to attack while the Lannister army was otherwise engaged.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

Post by ArmorPierce »

Thanas wrote:
ArmorPierce wrote:The lannisters had half of their army, which started off at 60,000, wiped out in the battle that Jamie Lannister was captured where he was commanding half their army. That battle alone wiped out half their army, and they presumably lost more during the siege of kings landing.
One battle and one siege are not enough to break such a professional army. Besides, those losses have probably been made up already.
These numbers are not made up, it was stated in the show as what Jamie had under comman. Perhaps some got away, but it was implied not many by the show since this required a change in tactics on the part of the Lannisters since they no longer had as great of a numerical advantage.

Battle of Whipsering Wood

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Bat ... ering_Wood
Thanas wrote:
ArmorPierce wrote:
And why would house Tyrell declare war? They were allied to the lannisters and their daughter was married to the queen. They had already come to the Lannister aid during the battle of kings landing, they presumably would once again if house Martel declared war, which was the weaker house among the bunch in the beginning anyway.

Now they have reason to but the Lannister army is back, which is why they are securing other alliances.
You misunderstand. Tyrell alone (even with Martell) is not enough to destroy House Lannister. So their forces - even after losing their army - is still strong enough to defeat them in the field.
The show stated specifically that Tyrells had the second largest army. The largest is probably the Vale which remained out of the War of 5 kings.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

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ArmorPierce wrote:
Thanas wrote:
ArmorPierce wrote:The lannisters had half of their army, which started off at 60,000, wiped out in the battle that Jamie Lannister was captured where he was commanding half their army. That battle alone wiped out half their army, and they presumably lost more during the siege of kings landing.
One battle and one siege are not enough to break such a professional army. Besides, those losses have probably been made up already.
These numbers are not made up, it was stated in the show as what Jamie had under comman. Battle of Whipsering Wood
Nitpick - I think he meant 'made up' as in 'replaced'.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

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Thanas wrote:
Alferd Packer wrote:I think sheer size would overwhelm the Lannister armies, who have been depleted by years of warfare. Dorne has been untouched, and while the Reach has suffered losses, it's only been due to one battle, really (the Blackwater). And sure, the Lannisters can raise levies from the Westerlands and the Crownlands, but how well-equipped will those levies be?
Years of warfare? Not really. The war against Robb Stark and Stannis is over a year ago. They won, without taking too many losses. Riverrun - again few losses. So what battles did they really engage in where they lost irreplaceable numbers of men?
Robb Stark basically annihilated Jamie Lannister's army at the Whispering Woods, and he annihilated their replacements at Oxcross. There are other victories as well, but they're only mentioned, not portrayed.
The show stated specifically that Tyrells had the second largest army. The largest is probably the Vale which remained out of the War of 5 kings.
The show portrays the Tyrells as having the largest army; Renly's army is stated to be around 100,000, and while they suffer some losses, they haven't had any military disasters like the Lannisters have.
In the event that the content of the above post is factually or logically flawed, I was Trolling All Along.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

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ArmorPierce wrote:
Thanas wrote:
ArmorPierce wrote:The question was posed why the Tyrells did not attack prior to this occurring, not post explosion at the temple caused by Cersie.
It really was not.
By that point the Lannister army was on its way back to Kings Landing and reached Kings landing by the time of Cersei's crowning, so the Tyrells would not have had an opportunity to attack while the Lannister army was otherwise engaged.
So? If they are only 8k that would not be enough to stop a Tyrell attack, which leads me to believe the lannisters have a much bigger army than they send out on excursions.

These numbers are not made up, it was stated in the show as what Jamie had under comman.
Made up, as in "replaced. :roll:

The show stated specifically that Tyrells had the second largest army. The largest is probably the Vale which remained out of the War of 5 kings.
The largest army is the lannister army. Tywinn stated 30k was half the lannister forces.


The show portrays the Tyrells as having the largest army;
Renly's army is stated to be around 100,000, and while they suffer some losses, they haven't had any military disasters like the Lannisters have.

No, it explicitly does not. Jaimie states they have teh second largest army (after the lannisters iirc).
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

Post by ArmorPierce »

Thanas wrote: The show portrays the Tyrells as having the largest army;[/b] Renly's army is stated to be around 100,000, and while they suffer some losses, they haven't had any military disasters like the Lannisters have.

No, it explicitly does not. Jaimie states they have teh second largest army (after the lannisters iirc).
In the show it is unstated who has the largest army currently in Westeros. It can be the Lannisters, but that's up for speculation currently.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

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It is possible that the 8k Jamie commanded were what the Lannister's could send without overly hurting the defense of both King's Landing and the West.
But it does give us a rough lower estimate on what forces the Lannister's can throw together in a rush for a military expedition besides what they deem they need for defense.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

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I wouldn't be at all surprised if the forces Jaime was personally leading to Riverrun were less than half of the total the Lannisters had available, including forces to watch Dorne, forces to secure King's Landing and keep the church and the Tyrells honest... In the books they were busy retaking Dragonstone from the relatively small garrison Stannis left behind at the same time as all this, but I'm not sure that's the case here.

In any event, the Lannisters do know they already have a large army surrounding Riverrun. After all, if Jaime felt he needed more men he could always call for them.

If I were in Jaime's shoes, I would assume that the failure of the siege had less to do with a lack of manpower and more to do with a bunch of Freys being in charge of the operations, personally. I'd bring reinforcements, but I'd be more worried about getting there fairly fast, at the head of whatever troops I can shake loose from the immediate area of King's Landing and points along my line of march. I wouldn't waste time gathering troops from other parts of Lannister territory, nor would I take all the troops from King's Landing.

And, as I said, if I needed more men to take the castle, I could always send for them after I'd made my assessment of the situation.
Alferd Packer wrote:The Unsullied would essentially fight like Greek phalanxes, or rather, that's how they're equipped. But that represents an out-of-date method of equipping and fighting. Westerosi foot soldiers would have longer, two-handed pikes and, if commanded by someone other than a buffoon, would most likely deploy in a schiltron (or several). It would be interesting to see how the Unsullied react to entirely new battlefield tactics being used against them.
Thing is, most of the Westerosi foot soldiers who are well trained and experienced in such tactics are either dead, or in the service of Daenerys' allies. And, heck, could probably send trainers to teach the Unsullied new tactics- I'm fairly sure the Unsullied will learn new things if you tell them to, after all.

Also, how much use of pikes have we actually seen? I've missed a lot of the series' battle scenes. Without pikes, infantry with swords and axes and so on aren't particularly great at beating a spear-armed phalanx.
NecronLord wrote:In absolute honesty, the prevalence of bronze armour and weapons in Essos suggests to me that Martin, although well read in history doesn't care to consider such things in too much detail; it would be almost comically easy for the Braavosi to skull-fuck Slaver's Bay, and the Volantines as written, and reduce them to dependencies if they ever had even the slightest desire to expand their abolitionist activities.

Planetos seems to have several inexplicably anachronistic cultures.
Eh, I handwave it is the knowledge of exotic bronze-making techniques, personally. Superior bronze that is competitive with iron isn't a huge suspension of disbelief in a world where there is literal magic steel that is far superior to all other weapons.

But you are totally right about the Dothraki being a liability.

A few thousand Dothraki might well be a useful asset, because they are good light cavalry or they couldn't terrorize Essos the way they do. Maybe even ten thousand. A hundred thousand is an uncontrollable horde that will just do whatever the hell it wants no matter what Dany says, because even on dragonback and moving around at a hundred miles an hour or whatever, she can only be in one place at a time. So unless she's managed to put such supernatural terror into the Dothraki that the majority of their individual soldiers all have changes of heart regarding being a bunch of pillaging loonies (unlikely), they're going to cause ten times more trouble for her than they're worth.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

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Simon_Jester wrote:Thing is, most of the Westerosi foot soldiers who are well trained and experienced in such tactics are either dead, or in the service of Daenerys' allies.
Why do you assume the Lannisters are not able to fight with pikes?
A few thousand Dothraki might well be a useful asset, because they are good light cavalry or they couldn't terrorize Essos the way they do. Maybe even ten thousand. A hundred thousand is an uncontrollable horde that will just do whatever the hell it wants no matter what Dany says, because even on dragonback and moving around at a hundred miles an hour or whatever, she can only be in one place at a time. So unless she's managed to put such supernatural terror into the Dothraki that the majority of their individual soldiers all have changes of heart regarding being a bunch of pillaging loonies (unlikely), they're going to cause ten times more trouble for her than they're worth.
I agree with their overall usefulness (or lack thereof) but given what we have seen from the militaries of Essos so far they are not exactly first-class opponents.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

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Thanas wrote:Years of warfare? Not really. The war against Robb Stark and Stannis is over a year ago. They won, without taking too many losses. Riverrun - again few losses. So what battles did they really engage in where they lost irreplaceable numbers of men?
The War of the Five Kings has been going on for what? Three to four years now AFAIK from what we see on the Show.

And we're in a pre-industrial setting where disease is the dominant killer of men, not armed combat. And the armies have been moving around, setting up camps here and there; and pillaging the landscape for fodder.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

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Thanas wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Thing is, most of the Westerosi foot soldiers who are well trained and experienced in such tactics are either dead, or in the service of Daenerys' allies.
Why do you assume the Lannisters are not able to fight with pikes?
I did not say the Lannisters have no pikemen, or are somehow totally unable to use pikes, so I cannot answer that question.

What I did say is the following, which I will expand on a bit to make things more clear:

1) While there may be instances of pikemen being used in Westeros for infantry combat, they are not the primary or dominant infantry arm, unless I am strongly mistaken. Someone out there may have some pikemen, but the Unsullied would be facing a lot of other things on the battlefield, not just pikemen.

2) The Lannisters have lost a lot of their experienced fighting manpower. Their initial forces took heavy losses in the War of the Five Kings. Since that time (which was, officially, some years ago), there have been a number of other 'running sores' that would reduce their manpower. Moreover, they are likely to face desertion issues, for two reasons. One, they've defaulted on the Iron Bank and their ability to keep paying may be in doubt. Two, the head of House Lannister is a madwoman who has attacked core institutions of state and faith alike. I doubt anyone really wants to work for her anymore.

3) For all these reasons, the Lannisters will have trouble fielding a professional army of heavy infantry, as opposed to, say, conscripted levies from the territories they directly rule. Their population of long-service men-at-arms has been depleted by warfare, and their ability to pay mercenaries and hire new professional troops is in grave doubt.

4) Meanwhile, the Tyrells and the Dornishmen have armies that are largely undiminished by warfare, or at any rate less damaged than the Lannisters' forces. Their economy is relatively strong, and it is likely that the Iron Bank may start slipping them even more money given their known habit of funding the enemies of leaders who default on their debts.

This leads to two conclusions.

One, while the Unsullied may not be first rate infantry by Westeros standards, their allies (Dorne and the Reach) are likely to be stronger in heavy infantry than their enemies (the Lannisters, and pretty much only the Lannisters).

Two, even if the Unsullied prove tactically inadequate against any part of the Lannister armies, Daenerys may well be able to remedy this inadequacy by getting training. The Unsullied are disciplined and not egotistical, and I am sure they can be trained to fight using longer spears or different formations if that is what is necessary for them to be effective. And Daenerys will have plenty of money and opportunities to get training for her soldiers.
I agree with their overall usefulness (or lack thereof) but given what we have seen from the militaries of Essos so far they are not exactly first-class opponents.
I can accept that the Dothraki may not be excellent light horse (by the standards of, say, the Mongols or the greatest of the Middle Eastern light cavalry cultures). But if they weren't at least competent, they'd be losing to sedentary societies often enough that they wouldn't be viewed the way they are. They'd win sometimes but not as often as they apparently do.

The militaries of Essos may be second-rate, but they can't have been that inadequate, that often, all the time, for hundreds of years.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

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Simon_Jester wrote:1) While there may be instances of pikemen being used in Westeros for infantry combat, they are not the primary or dominant infantry arm, unless I am strongly mistaken. Someone out there may have some pikemen, but the Unsullied would be facing a lot of other things on the battlefield, not just pikemen.
Then again, when do we ever see pike combat among infantry? No sense for it at Kings landing and the battle of blackwater. Though when the opportunity arises we do see pikemen (see bolton).
3) For all these reasons, the Lannisters will have trouble fielding a professional army of heavy infantry, as opposed to, say, conscripted levies from the territories they directly rule. Their population of long-service men-at-arms has been depleted by warfare, and their ability to pay mercenaries and hire new professional troops is in grave doubt.
OTOH, whenever we see lannisters in the field, they are professional, heavily-armed soldiers. They are all uniformly equipped and have every characteristic of a long-standing army. That is not just limited to the armies Jaimie takes with him, that is true for every lannister army we see on film. Even the troops left to garrison Kings Landing or elsewhere, who should not be a crack force, are depicted the same.

And btw the Lannister wealth is not only based on their gold. It is based on their highly wealthy territories just as much and their word.

BTW, did the crown ever default on the Iron Bank in the show? Only seems so in the books....
4) Meanwhile, the Tyrells and the Dornishmen have armies that are largely undiminished by warfare, or at any rate less damaged than the Lannisters' forces. Their economy is relatively strong, and it is likely that the Iron Bank may start slipping them even more money given their known habit of funding the enemies of leaders who default on their debts.

This leads to two conclusions.

One, while the Unsullied may not be first rate infantry by Westeros standards, their allies (Dorne and the Reach) are likely to be stronger in heavy infantry than their enemies (the Lannisters, and pretty much only the Lannisters).
Disagree. The Dornes - as depicted in the show - seem to be of questionable worth. Tyrell is IMO the only serious contender here and I doubt they can face Lannister armies in the field. That being said, we are bound to find out (after all, there is a reason so many Tyrell soldier costumes were made this season).
Two, even if the Unsullied prove tactically inadequate against any part of the Lannister armies, Daenerys may well be able to remedy this inadequacy by getting training. The Unsullied are disciplined and not egotistical, and I am sure they can be trained to fight using longer spears or different formations if that is what is necessary for them to be effective. And Daenerys will have plenty of money and opportunities to get training for her soldiers.
True, which is why I mentioned that. That being said, how much time can she really have? She is going to have to strike sooner than later, for the simple reason that any pretender has to take KL to be considered victorious and giving the Lannisters time to regroup or focus on other fronts is a very bad idea.
I can accept that the Dothraki may not be excellent light horse (by the standards of, say, the Mongols or the greatest of the Middle Eastern light cavalry cultures). But if they weren't at least competent, they'd be losing to sedentary societies often enough that they wouldn't be viewed the way they are. They'd win sometimes but not as often as they apparently do.

The militaries of Essos may be second-rate, but they can't have been that inadequate, that often, all the time, for hundreds of years.

But by all accounts they are. Dothraki focus on isolated, small settlements. They can't take great cities. Heck, unsullied a tenth their size defeated them in the open field. You can't tell me that competent light horse will lose against 10k spearmen (not greak phalanx, but short spears).
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

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A hundred thousand Dothraki are a liability simply because that means at least one hundred thousand horses. Considering they are nomadic and rely heavily on horse, probably several times that. That's probably more cavalry than everyone in Westeros combined can field, and all those horses have to be fed.
OTOH, whenever we see lannisters in the field, they are professional, heavily-armed soldiers. They are all uniformly equipped and have every characteristic of a long-standing army. That is not just limited to the armies Jaimie takes with him, that is true for every lannister army we see on film.
The Lannister soldiers we see at Oxcross, both before the battle and the casualties after, are not. Nor are the soldiers that we see at Harrenhal with Gregor Clegane. Some of them have the peculiar Lannister red plate, but not all by any stretch.



Also
They are all uniformly equipped
Everyone is weirdly uniformly equipped. Stark soldiers all seem to be wearing the same leather brigandine despite coming from a variety of different houses. The Tyrell soldiers we saw this season were also equipped in a uniform fashion. Same with the Bolton army from episode 9. I'm a little hesitant to declare all of these to professional armies. Either the Lords Paramount of Westeros are extremely good about enforcing uniformity of equipment among their bannermen's retinues, or the show runners decided to take a shortcut and visually code each faction's soldiers with distinctive outfits, even when it doesn't necessarily make in-universe sense.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

Post by LaCroix »

The dothraki horde will be riding down the undead horde and cutting off heads left and right, mark my words.

Until then, it is quite useful in one way- surrounding the enemy. If you have the Unsullied, Dornish and Tyrells in a line facing the Lannisters, a 100k light cavalry horde could make a very useful ring around them.

Dothraki are quick enough to evade archers and heavy cavalry charges. And sending your cavalry out to disperse them will open you up to a charge by the Tyrells, and/or get them picked off by the numerical advantage the dothraki have.

This ring will keep everyone contained and continously harrassed at the flanks and rear, meaning you will have to fight in a circle, diverting troops from the main angle of attack and robbing your line of depth and the security of having the flanks and back safe. Without light cavalry in huge numbers, you can't break out of this. You can charge out with the heavy cav and run for it (and get hunted down by the dothraki one by one), but the infantry is stuck. period.

Being completely cut off is a thing that might break a medival army before the attack even begins.

But it doesn't stop at this.

Even if they manage to keep morale and create some kind of schiltron or pike formation to deal with the situation, we now are adding three dragons into that mix.

Voila, you have a perfect chaos - every unit keeping formation to engage the main troops and harrassers will be a nice blob of targets to be burnt.

And every unit loosing cohaesion when facing a dragon swooping down at them, all hot and bothered, will get overrun by the main line or a sortie of a local light cavalry charge.

So any big battle will be the last one.
If you try small engagements, instead - light cavalry rules that kind of field, and the horde will just run you down.
Try to manouver and/or evade? Dragon riders can spot you from afar, and the dothraki move quicker than you, forcing you into an engagement or you loose the baggage train.
Hole up in a castle and hold out in a siege? Castles burn well, a dragon told me.

Logistics aren't a big problem for this kind of army, especially with the Tyrells on their side. Remember the list of support they funneled into King's Landing? A million bushels of wheat, half a million bushels each, of barley, oats, and rye. 20000 head of cattle, 50000 sheep. Enough to basically single - handedly feed half a million people plus garrison and standing armies. Simply by not delivering that, anymore, and feed Dany's army with it, they pretty much win that war.

A quick look at that invading army - they have superior numbers in heavy troops (Dorne and Tyrells, unsullied), and a vastly superior force of raiders/scouts/supporting cavalry. Pretty much the biggest/only fleet, bar a potential ironborn fleet (who she knows wishes to ally with her, and will not outright attack her, at least for now).

And dreaggons for air superiority, scouting, and close air support. The dragons alone mean that any tactic known to or possible in medieval warfare goes out of the window, instantly, and the main body of your army is tossed right after that, figuratively. That's why the Targaryens did not need many soldiers. And Danaeris won't, either.
The war will be over just as quickly as it takes them to physically move across the continent, once.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

Post by Thanas »

Kingmaker wrote:The Lannister soldiers we see at Oxcross, both before the battle and the casualties after, are not. Nor are the soldiers that we see at Harrenhal with Gregor Clegane. Some of them have the peculiar Lannister red plate, but not all by any stretch.
Cleganes forces are irregulars. And I think oxcross simply shows the difference between raised levies and the standing army. Whenever lannister forces have been onscreen lately, they all have been really uniform.
Everyone is weirdly uniformly equipped. Stark soldiers all seem to be wearing the same leather brigandine despite coming from a variety of different houses. The Tyrell soldiers we saw this season were also equipped in a uniform fashion. Same with the Bolton army from episode 9. I'm a little hesitant to declare all of these to professional armies. Either the Lords Paramount of Westeros are extremely good about enforcing uniformity of equipment among their bannermen's retinues, or the show runners decided to take a shortcut and visually code each faction's soldiers with distinctive outfits, even when it doesn't necessarily make in-universe sense.
That is true, yet IMO only Lannister and Tyrell look as if they were taking orders from the same catalogue. I think this is deliberate showing standardized equipment provided by the house.

The starks were at least having varieties in their armour and weaponry. Lannisters? Not so much, Tyrell neither.


LaCroix wrote: Dothraki are quick enough to evade archers and heavy cavalry charges. And sending your cavalry out to disperse them will open you up to a charge by the Tyrells, and/or get them picked off by the numerical advantage the dothraki have.
No light cavalry has ever evaded archers, crossbows or mounted crossbowmen.
This ring will keep everyone contained and continously harrassed at the flanks and rear, meaning you will have to fight in a circle, diverting troops from the main angle of attack and robbing your line of depth and the security of having the flanks and back safe. Without light cavalry in huge numbers, you can't break out of this. You can charge out with the heavy cav and run for it (and get hunted down by the dothraki one by one), but the infantry is stuck. period.
So tell me more about how the Awars utterly defeated the heavy German knights and heavy infantry....oh wait. Lechfeld happened.
Until then, it is quite useful in one way- surrounding the enemy. If you have the Unsullied, Dornish and Tyrells in a line facing the Lannisters, a 100k light cavalry horde could make a very useful ring around them.
Yes, if the enemy commander is an utter idiot and lets Dany dictate the battle on her terms.

Here is what a smart commander would do to counter the lgiht cavalry threat.

1. Raise your own light cavalry. With proper warhorses. Mail armour and crossbows. You know, how medieval armies met and defeated the challenge of light cavalry.
2. Starve the enemy army. Horses have to drink. A lot.
3. Trust in your forts. Sure, dragons, but ballistae are a thing and of course if Dany wants to ruin over a burned mess of land then let her. Besides, as the dance of dragons shows, dragons can be killed by even an angry mob. (and I am talking about the dragon that was unchained but engaged the mob nevertheless).
4. Strike at the heartland of the enemy houses.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

Post by Simon_Jester »

Thanas wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:1) While there may be instances of pikemen being used in Westeros for infantry combat, they are not the primary or dominant infantry arm, unless I am strongly mistaken. Someone out there may have some pikemen, but the Unsullied would be facing a lot of other things on the battlefield, not just pikemen.
Then again, when do we ever see pike combat among infantry? No sense for it at Kings landing and the battle of blackwater. Though when the opportunity arises we do see pikemen (see bolton).
If Westeros armies do not normally use pikes except when specifically anticipating a cavalry attack, then it is unlikely that the Unsullied would have to fight pikemen. Which neutralizes the objection that the Unsullied would not be effective against pikemen.

Now, the Dothraki would have severe problems against pikemen if they are not in the habit of using missile weapons against pike blocks- and we know that at least some Dothraki do not have that habit, because of the famous defeat of a large Dothraki army by a relatively small Unsullied phalanx in the past.
3) For all these reasons, the Lannisters will have trouble fielding a professional army of heavy infantry, as opposed to, say, conscripted levies from the territories they directly rule. Their population of long-service men-at-arms has been depleted by warfare, and their ability to pay mercenaries and hire new professional troops is in grave doubt.
OTOH, whenever we see lannisters in the field, they are professional, heavily-armed soldiers. They are all uniformly equipped and have every characteristic of a long-standing army. That is not just limited to the armies Jaimie takes with him, that is true for every lannister army we see on film. Even the troops left to garrison Kings Landing or elsewhere, who should not be a crack force, are depicted the same.
There is a difference between saying "the Lannisters will have trouble fielding such a force" and "the Lannisters have no such forces left." They have some left. Are they as skilled as the soldiers who fought in the War of the Five Kings, though? Do they have the same level of training, discipline, and willingness to fight for the Lannisters?

My argument is that the Lannisters' ability to retain that army, and to keep up its professionalism, will have suffered. They will not have so many men, nor such well trained men, and even if they can maintain the same level of good equipment, the reduced quality and quantity will have an impact. They will, in other words, "have trouble fielding" a (strong) professional army of heavy infantry.
And btw the Lannister wealth is not only based on their gold. It is based on their highly wealthy territories just as much and their word.
Cersei's word isn't going to be worth anything to anyone in Season 7, realistically, and Jaime is still dogged by his reputation as the Kingslayer. The Lannisters' word is now an extremely debased currency.

They still have rich domains- but then, so do the Tyrells. With the depletion of their gold mines, the Lannisters no longer have an advantage in that area. So all Daenerys needs is to rely on her allies to cancel out her enemies' strengths while allowing her to exploit her own strengths.
BTW, did the crown ever default on the Iron Bank in the show? Only seems so in the books....
The wiki article indicates that they did, and cites episodes. It also quotes Tywin and cites Tyrion Lannister both worrying about the consequences of not paying the Bank... and of Cersei being unconcerned about the matter.
Disagree. The Dornes - as depicted in the show - seem to be of questionable worth. Tyrell is IMO the only serious contender here and I doubt they can face Lannister armies in the field. That being said, we are bound to find out (after all, there is a reason so many Tyrell soldier costumes were made this season).
The Tyrells have constantly been portrayed as a consistent, credible rival to the Lannisters. The fact that they were backing Renly made Renly a massive threat at first, for instance.

Now, during the time of the War of the Five Kings, would the Tyrells have been able to defeat the Lannisters in terms of military strength? Surely not. But the Lannisters were in all ways richer, stronger, and more respected in those days. Whereas the Tyrells have lost very little strength of any kind since the end of the war. Their greatest weakness is that the only person left to wave the banner of their house is an elderly grandmother, and that deficiency of leadership is precisely where allying with Daenerys provides an advantage to them.

I would not assume that the Lannisters still actually possess more strength than the Tyrells. It's possible, but far from certain.

Though, hm. The Tyrells do have one major disadvantage- they're likely to have to divert strength to deal with Euron. He seems to have chosen to bypass the Lannister domains.
Two, even if the Unsullied prove tactically inadequate against any part of the Lannister armies, Daenerys may well be able to remedy this inadequacy by getting training. The Unsullied are disciplined and not egotistical, and I am sure they can be trained to fight using longer spears or different formations if that is what is necessary for them to be effective. And Daenerys will have plenty of money and opportunities to get training for her soldiers.
True, which is why I mentioned that. That being said, how much time can she really have? She is going to have to strike sooner than later, for the simple reason that any pretender has to take KL to be considered victorious and giving the Lannisters time to regroup or focus on other fronts is a very bad idea.
Fair point- although I suspect that sheer numbers and surprise would at least allow Daenerys's forces to take that much if they move aggressively. They would then have some time, at least weeks or months, before facing other major Lannister armies in the field.
I can accept that the Dothraki may not be excellent light horse (by the standards of, say, the Mongols or the greatest of the Middle Eastern light cavalry cultures). But if they weren't at least competent, they'd be losing to sedentary societies often enough that they wouldn't be viewed the way they are. They'd win sometimes but not as often as they apparently do.

The militaries of Essos may be second-rate, but they can't have been that inadequate, that often, all the time, for hundreds of years.
But by all accounts they are. Dothraki focus on isolated, small settlements. They can't take great cities. Heck, unsullied a tenth their size defeated them in the open field. You can't tell me that competent light horse will lose against 10k spearmen (not greak phalanx, but short spears).
That... is a fair point.

The nature of Vaes Dothrak in the books, with the presence of many great buildings that are themselves war trophies* indicates that the Dothraki have taken cities of respectable size in the past, I would think... but that may have been at a time in the past when they were stronger or better led, or there might be some other explanation.

*(I am not sure how well supported this inference is in the show)
Thanas wrote:Cleganes forces are irregulars. And I think oxcross simply shows the difference between raised levies and the standing army. Whenever lannister forces have been onscreen lately, they all have been really uniform.
This is true. But like any nation that's been at war for several years, I suspect that the Lannister desmesnes' current body of regular fighting men is all they have easily available. Any replacements they could enlist who were experienced enough to be 'regulars' would already be in their armies. And that if they call up still more men, they'll likely resemble the levies and not the regulars.
That is true, yet IMO only Lannister and Tyrell look as if they were taking orders from the same catalogue. I think this is deliberate showing standardized equipment provided by the house.

The starks were at least having varieties in their armour and weaponry. Lannisters? Not so much, Tyrell neither.
Thing is, that's exactly my point- the Lannisters and the Tyrells are on the same general plane in terms of their wealth and resources- which means that if you have a sizeable army of your own and the Tyrells as allies and the Lannisters have been massively weakened by infighting and chaos and Cersei trying to blow up the established church...

That's a winning combination.
No light cavalry has ever evaded archers, crossbows or mounted crossbowmen.
Evade in the operational sense, not the tactical. Foot archers protected by a good shield wall or spear formation could probably break a Dothraki attack, but they can't march out and drive the Dothraki away permanently, so they remain an operational threat to a surrounded infantry army.
So tell me more about how the Awars utterly defeated the heavy German knights and heavy infantry....oh wait. Lechfeld happened.
The Germans defeated a light cavalry army (Magyars, not Avars, as I recall; am I wrong?) at Lechfeld- but the Magyars didn't have their own force of heavy infantry and knights comparable to that of the Germans in addition to their light cavalry. They also lacked air support armed with napalm. Whereas Daenerys would enjoy both of these advantages.
Yes, if the enemy commander is an utter idiot and lets Dany dictate the battle on her terms.

Here is what a smart commander would do to counter the lgiht cavalry threat.

1. Raise your own light cavalry. With proper warhorses. Mail armour and crossbows. You know, how medieval armies met and defeated the challenge of light cavalry.
2. Starve the enemy army. Horses have to drink. A lot.
3. Trust in your forts. Sure, dragons, but ballistae are a thing and of course if Dany wants to ruin over a burned mess of land then let her. Besides, as the dance of dragons shows, dragons can be killed by even an angry mob. (and I am talking about the dragon that was unchained but engaged the mob nevertheless).
4. Strike at the heartland of the enemy houses.
The Lannisters do, in fairness, still have exactly one person smart enough and with enough military experience to implement this- Jaime.

Strategy (1) is the sort of thing you do after a few years' experience fighting light cavalry- note that the Magyars cut a substantial distance into Europe before they were stopped. As did a number of other light cavalry armies before and since. So that will be a factor in the next war or two, assuming the Dothraki stick around in Westeros.

(2) is not something you will reliably have the luxury of doing when your enemy has the support of the largest granaries on the continent.

(3) is a factor in play- except that we know from the history of Westeros that while dragons may not always be able to take castles, they certainly can destroy them, and have done so in the past- that was a large part of how Aegon was able to conquer in the first place. Meanwhile, the Lannisters will inevitably lose the war unless they hold King's Landing and numerous other strategic points, while preventing dragons from casually obliterating them, and preventing the Tyrells' armies and the Unsullied from storming and capturing them. That is a difficult task.

(4) is a factor only if you have enough forces to launch such an attack effectively, and it is not clear that the Lannisters do. Moreover, the only 'heartland' they can attack is the Reach. I suppose if they could somehow occupy that it might win them the war, since without the Tyrell alliance Daenerys is at a grave disadvantage, since all she has is, well... everything Aegon the Conqueror had, and more. Except, I suppose, for not having two more experienced dragonriders, which is admittedly a serious disadvantage.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

Post by Thanas »

Simon_Jester wrote:If Westeros armies do not normally use pikes except when specifically anticipating a cavalry attack, then it is unlikely that the Unsullied would have to fight pikemen. Which neutralizes the objection that the Unsullied would not be effective against pikemen.

Now, the Dothraki would have severe problems against pikemen if they are not in the habit of using missile weapons against pike blocks- and we know that at least some Dothraki do not have that habit, because of the famous defeat of a large Dothraki army by a relatively small Unsullied phalanx in the past.
There is nothing in the dothraki that screems "sophisticated combat tactics" of the sort necessary to defeat even a bog-standard shield wall. And tbh, if the Lannisters have not equipped their forces with pikes then they are idiots, for the Tyrell forces do carry long shields and spears.
There is a difference between saying "the Lannisters will have trouble fielding such a force" and "the Lannisters have no such forces left." They have some left. Are they as skilled as the soldiers who fought in the War of the Five Kings, though? Do they have the same level of training, discipline, and willingness to fight for the Lannisters?
There is nothing to suggest otherwise IMO.

Cersei's word isn't going to be worth anything to anyone in Season 7, realistically, and Jaime is still dogged by his reputation as the Kingslayer. The Lannisters' word is now an extremely debased currency.

They still have rich domains- but then, so do the Tyrells. With the depletion of their gold mines, the Lannisters no longer have an advantage in that area. So all Daenerys needs is to rely on her allies to cancel out her enemies' strengths while allowing her to exploit her own strengths.
And yet the Lannisters have no trouble holding on to their forces. I just do not think the losses of the war against the starks were that severe. Let's just agree to disagree on that one.
The Tyrells have constantly been portrayed as a consistent, credible rival to the Lannisters. The fact that they were backing Renly made Renly a massive threat at first, for instance.
That and the strength of half of House Boratheon. Whch is now dead and taken over by the Lannisters.
Fair point- although I suspect that sheer numbers and surprise would at least allow Daenerys's forces to take that much if they move aggressively. They would then have some time, at least weeks or months, before facing other major Lannister armies in the field.
Maybe. I think it all depends on how good the Lannister fleet is at detecting the enemy forces. Which tbh is a fair possibility considering the Lannister Navy is really good.
This is true. But like any nation that's been at war for several years, I suspect that the Lannister desmesnes' current body of regular fighting men is all they have easily available. Any replacements they could enlist who were experienced enough to be 'regulars' would already be in their armies. And that if they call up still more men, they'll likely resemble the levies and not the regulars.
Well, maybe yes, maybe not. I mean, the problem is that we do not know what happened to their armies after Robb died. They had over a year of peace left after that, which is plenty of time to replenish lost forces, especially with all the plunder they gained. In fact, I suspect that the worth of weapons captured from the Stark and Tully forces alone would be enough to refill the ranks.

We also do not know their manpower pool available, though if they are anything like medieval nations then losing 30-40k men would not be the biggest obstacle.

Thing is, that's exactly my point- the Lannisters and the Tyrells are on the same general plane in terms of their wealth and resources- which means that if you have a sizeable army of your own and the Tyrells as allies and the Lannisters have been massively weakened by infighting and chaos and Cersei trying to blow up the established church...

That's a winning combination.
Fair point, but again I caution to think of the Lannisters as severely weakened. They lack in good commanders for sure and their authority has taken a hit, but their core lands are untouched and still thriving. Plus, they have control of the two greatest cities. Given the time period, the trade value - and manpower - generated by huge cities is enormous.

Evade in the operational sense, not the tactical. Foot archers protected by a good shield wall or spear formation could probably break a Dothraki attack, but they can't march out and drive the Dothraki away permanently, so they remain an operational threat to a surrounded infantry army.
But....why would they be surrounded? The Dothraki horses are a major weak spot. They are used to hot climates. They are not used to continental climates. Why was it so hard for the moors to conquer northern spain? Not because they suddenly became decadent, but one factor was that the climate and terrain was not beneficial to their horses. IMO a dothraki horse will have severe problems within the colder regions of Westeros.

The Germans defeated a light cavalry army (Magyars, not Avars, as I recall; am I wrong?) at Lechfeld- but the Magyars didn't have their own force of heavy infantry and knights comparable to that of the Germans in addition to their light cavalry.
Yeah, maygars. But Charlemagne defeated the awars with heavy infantry and cavalry despite them having infantry and heavy cavalry (and superior field artillery). Point is, some terrain is not useful for light cavalry even if supported by heavy knights and infantry. As long as the core of Dany's army is Dothraki, she will not have much success (for the simple reason that the Dothraki have no camp discipline, no watches, no tactical training besides "charge them".) Heck, an entire dragon was able to sneak up on their host without a picket line spotting it.

What do you think twentygoodmen (tm) led by Jaimie will do to their camp?
They also lacked air support armed with napalm. Whereas Daenerys would enjoy both of these advantages.

True, Dragons are a major problems for Lannisters....but again, ballistae.
(2) is not something you will reliably have the luxury of doing when your enemy has the support of the largest granaries on the continent.
Not sure, water is the main problem not grain.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

Post by NecronLord »

Castles? Ballistas? Westerosi thought these things would help them before the last Targaryen invasion. They were wrong.

Image

Harrenhal was the largest castle of its time and is still the largest in ruin, in Westeros, but Balerion the black destroyed it without issue or even needing either of the other two dragons. He's larger than any of Dany's dragons (yet) but it's certainly proof of concept of dragons vs fortifications.

Likewise the Valyrian dragon lords used their dragons to entirely raze the fortified city of Ghis and kill everyone. I wouldn't trust in fortifications, they have never protected anyone from a dragon in-setting. Obviously both examples had more experience and in the case of the dragon lords, more dragons, but no fortification has yet stood against dragons.

As for ballistas, Chapter 57 of A Dance with Dragons reveals:
Spoiler
The Maester's lore on dragons says that only a direct hit to the eye will injure one. Tyrion comments on this from his reading when watching the Ghiscari siege forces assemble siege weapons in the hope of killing Drogon. Red is the quote:

The Clanker Lords had their slave soldiers drilling in the nearest field. The clatter of the chains that bound them made a harsh metallic music as they marched across the sand in lockstep and formed up with their long spears. Elsewhere teams of slaves were raising ramps of stone and sand beneath their mangonels and scorpions, angling them upward at the sky, the better to defend the camp should the black dragon return. It made the dwarf smile to see them sweating and cursing as they wrestled the heavy machines onto the inclines. Crossbows were much in evidence as well. Every other man seemed to be clutching one, with a quiverfull of bolts hanging from his hip.

If anyone had thought to ask him, Tyrion could have told them not to bother. Unless one of those long iron scorpion bolts chanced to find an eye, the queen’s pet monster was not like to be brought down by such toys. Dragons are not so easy to kill as that. Tickle him with these and you’ll only make him angry.

The eyes were where a dragon was most vulnerable. The eyes, and the brain behind them. Not the underbelly, as certain old tales would have it. The scales there were just as tough as those along a dragon’s back and flanks. And not down the gullet either. That was madness. These would-be dragonslayers might as well try to quench a fire with a spear thrust. “Death comes out of the dragon’s mouth,” Septon Barth had written in his Unnatural History, “but death does not go in that way.”


Conceivably he's wrong, but he's known for having made a special study of the texts relating to them.
And Dany only needs to kill off a few armies and destroy the noble houses leading them, and prove she'll reward submission and the rest will kneel, just as they did for her ancestor.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

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Thanas wrote: Heck, unsullied a tenth their size defeated them in the open field. You can't tell me that competent light horse will lose against 10k spearmen (not greak phalanx, but short spears).
Really I regard the unsullied not having pikes as basically a blooper, or a limitation of the budget of the TV production, in the books (and even in the show!) we're told that they have three lengths of spear, one of which almost certainly has to be some manner of pike, and one of which is a throwing spear as I recall.

The narrative in the books only really makes sense if they have pikes.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

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Thanas wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:If Westeros armies do not normally use pikes except when specifically anticipating a cavalry attack, then it is unlikely that the Unsullied would have to fight pikemen. Which neutralizes the objection that the Unsullied would not be effective against pikemen.

Now, the Dothraki would have severe problems against pikemen if they are not in the habit of using missile weapons against pike blocks- and we know that at least some Dothraki do not have that habit, because of the famous defeat of a large Dothraki army by a relatively small Unsullied phalanx in the past.
There is nothing in the dothraki that screems "sophisticated combat tactics" of the sort necessary to defeat even a bog-standard shield wall. And tbh, if the Lannisters have not equipped their forces with pikes then they are idiots...
And this is a hypothesis you're prepared to reject?

We've already established that the Unsullied and the Dothraki are idiots, most soldiers in the North are idiots (or at least their commanders are), a wide variety of soldiers and commanders in the rest of Westeros are idiots. Idiots abound, idiots galore. Why should the Lannisters be immune?

In other words, if our standard for "is an idiot in fiction" is "does something in battle on TV that would not work in real life," then there are just about zero non-idiot military characters in all of military, historical, or fantasy fiction.

So we can either assume that the on-screen portrayal of these people should be taken as evidence they're stupid whenever they do something unrealistic... Or we can assume that it should not. We can't have it both ways.
There is a difference between saying "the Lannisters will have trouble fielding such a force" and "the Lannisters have no such forces left." They have some left. Are they as skilled as the soldiers who fought in the War of the Five Kings, though? Do they have the same level of training, discipline, and willingness to fight for the Lannisters?
There is nothing to suggest otherwise IMO.
The Lannisters' original standing army. The strengths of the Lannisters were their long-service professional troops, their great wealth, their reputation as reliable paymasters (you may remember Tyrion exploiting this at the Eyrie, for instance), and their reputation as bold, cunning, efficient leaders.

Now...

1) Many of the long-service professionals are dead. They're no doubt being replaced, but not very fast.
2) The Lannisters' wealth has decreased- the gold mines are empty. That's not their only source of wealth but it's a major one.
3) The Lannisters are getting a reputation for not paying their financial debts, even as they become savagely vindictive about their political debts. This is the kind of thing that makes you nervous if you're a mercenary worried that if you lose a battle, Cersei may decide you're a traitor for doing so.
4a) One of the three Lannisters who had that reputation for cleverness and efficiency is dead. Another is an exiled kinslayer. That leaves one (Jaime).
4b) The fourth Lannister (who happens to be running things) has been going increasingly insane, has struck out wildly at many of her own nobles and supporters and the established church that most of her own followers worship, and in general has about as much skill in the art of government as the average eggplant.

And to you these things do not suggest that Lannister forces are likely to have declined in quality? Truly? If I were a competent mercenary in Westeros I would seriously consider leaving Lannister service right now- even though, as such a mercenary, I would have stuck firmly by their side through the War of the Five Kings and its aftermath. Because their ability to pay me is now in question, their willingness to pay me is in question, and they have made strong enemies of someone else whose ability to pay rivals that of the Lannisters- but whose reputation is much better.
Cersei's word isn't going to be worth anything to anyone in Season 7, realistically, and Jaime is still dogged by his reputation as the Kingslayer. The Lannisters' word is now an extremely debased currency.

They still have rich domains- but then, so do the Tyrells. With the depletion of their gold mines, the Lannisters no longer have an advantage in that area. So all Daenerys needs is to rely on her allies to cancel out her enemies' strengths while allowing her to exploit her own strengths.
And yet the Lannisters have no trouble holding on to their forces. I just do not think the losses of the war against the starks were that severe. Let's just agree to disagree on that one.
They lost half of their main field army at least once, and large chunks of it at other times. I'm not ready to agree on this point.

All we know is that the Lannisters still have soldiers. We don't have accurate counts of their forces at any one time, let alone a graph of their total force over a period. We know that they aren't suffering mass desertions yet, but this may well be happening in the near future. To me it would be an entirely predictable consequence of Cersei's actions if she finds a large fraction of her own army leaving her service.
The Tyrells have constantly been portrayed as a consistent, credible rival to the Lannisters. The fact that they were backing Renly made Renly a massive threat at first, for instance.
That and the strength of half of House Boratheon. Whch is now dead and taken over by the Lannisters.
House Barathreon was never, so far as I know, so rich and powerful as either the Tyrells or the Lannisters. A large part of Renly's power came from supporters in the Stormlands, but his alliance with the Reach is what amplified his strength into an overwhelming force. Note how much larger his forces were compared to Stannis's, which is why Stannis had to resort to magic in order to defeat him. They were both Barathreons, and Stannis had troops from the islands, but Renly's share of the Barathreon troops plus Tyrell forces was much, much larger than Stannis's (small) share plus all the men from the islands.

Then, when the Tyrells swing around to back the Lannisters, the Lannister position is made secure- even before the Red Wedding, the Lannisters have every reason to stop worrying. But they spend the next three seasons maneuvering to avoid ending up too dependent on the Tyrells. Why would that be, if the Tyrells were not a credible rival to the Lannisters in terms of wealth, power, and influence?
Fair point- although I suspect that sheer numbers and surprise would at least allow Daenerys's forces to take that much if they move aggressively. They would then have some time, at least weeks or months, before facing other major Lannister armies in the field.
Maybe. I think it all depends on how good the Lannister fleet is at detecting the enemy forces. Which tbh is a fair possibility considering the Lannister Navy is really good.
This does appear to be true- although I'm honestly amazed if the threat of Ironborn raids hasn't forced the Lannisters to divert most of their warships to the west coast, leaving them poorly equipped to respond to Daenerys's fleet in the east.
Evade in the operational sense, not the tactical. Foot archers protected by a good shield wall or spear formation could probably break a Dothraki attack, but they can't march out and drive the Dothraki away permanently, so they remain an operational threat to a surrounded infantry army.
But....why would they be surrounded? The Dothraki horses are a major weak spot. They are used to hot climates. They are not used to continental climates...
In English, a "continental climate" refers to the climate of an area that is far inland- which typically means very hot summers and harsh, cold winters. And the Dothraki are native to precisely such a large inland plains region.

What is your reasoning for saying that the Dothraki do not know how to cope with winter climates, or that their horses cannot survive such? We've mostly seen Dothraki fighting and operating when it is warm, but that doesn't mean they don't know how to handle cold. We could equally well argue that because the armies of the War of the Five Kings were fighting at a time when there was no snow or ice, that none of them are prepared to cope with winters.
Yeah, maygars. But Charlemagne defeated the awars with heavy infantry and cavalry despite them having infantry and heavy cavalry (and superior field artillery). Point is, some terrain is not useful for light cavalry even if supported by heavy knights and infantry. As long as the core of Dany's army is Dothraki, she will not have much success (for the simple reason that the Dothraki have no camp discipline, no watches, no tactical training besides "charge them".) Heck, an entire dragon was able to sneak up on their host without a picket line spotting it.
The Dothraki lack of military discipline is definitely going to be a factor, and I would expect well led Westeros armies to perform adequately against a purely Dothraki force (like the one Khal Drogo might have tried to lead against them, once upon a time).
What do you think twentygoodmen (tm) led by Jaimie will do to their camp?
Well, I'd like to think Jaime can do anything useful Ramsay could do, so I'm going to assume that they could wreck the supplies of, oh, five thousand troops or however many Stannis had left... pity about the other ninety-five thousand. ;)

More seriously, I wouldn't be at all surprised if vast numbers of Dothraki die for this and other reasons. But they are not truly the core of Daenerys's forces, they are not her only force, and they are not, man-for-man, her best force.

That same commando raid that works well against a bunch of wildlings or soldiers bunkered down for the winter will probably not work so well against a camp full of Unsullied. The Unsullied may have an archaic fighting style but no one can reasonably deny their discipline or their willingness to build secure camps.

And the Tyrells seem to have already mastered the art of fielding large armies with secure logistics, or Renly wouldn't have been able to lead his army of a hundred thousand men.
They also lacked air support armed with napalm. Whereas Daenerys would enjoy both of these advantages.
True, Dragons are a major problems for Lannisters....but again, ballistae.
They only have so many, in so many places. If the war stretches out long enough, the Lannisters may well be able to procure enough ballistae to secure quite a few fortresses... but they lack control of the land between, they cannot march armies between different fortresses in any security, they cannot rely on maritime trade (it takes a LOT of missile weapons to pose a credible threat to a dragon, and we've seen her dragons lay waste to a considerable fleet of warships already). Meanwhile, in the long run on the political front, Daenerys has almost every imaginable advantage, while the Lannisters have almost every imaginable disadvantage. About the only real problem Daenerys has is the risk of her Dothraki turning the populace against her- a problem which is mitigated in exact proportion to the number of Dothraki who fall in battle.
Not sure, water is the main problem not grain.
To be fair, in an arid region Daenerys could not reasonably bring all of her tens of thousands of cavalry to bear on an enemy at once- but then, it's not like the enemy can operate freely in huge numbers in such regions either.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

Post by Kingmaker »

I just do not think the losses of the war against the starks were that severe.
Canonically, they lost almost half their army when Robb relieved Riverrun (turns out Jamie Lannister isn't actually a very good general). So that's 30,000 troops right there (this was apparently such a catastrophic loss that Kevan Lannister seriously proposed making peace). Throw in the aforementioned 'thousands' killed at Oxcross (the remainder dispersed or captured) and others lost through regular fighting, and it becomes sort of hard to credit the notion that Lannister losses are not that substantial.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

Post by NecronLord »

Also as regards the TV production, I recall someone saying the the Tyrells had longer spears? That's presumably based on this.

Image

Here they look longer...

Image

But this is because they're marching with them off the ground.

The Tyrell soldiers only rest their spears on the ground they're more like the length of the unsullied ones

Image

There's a serious reason for this. If you're the TV series' propmaster/grip and you're filming in the Irish countryside, or Morocco you want all the costumes to fit in a Ford Transit van. That means either making pikes that break down - a more complex and expensive prop - or finding specialist transport for them, or just using short spears, and that's the simple option.

Aside from lances in jousts, I don't think any particularly long weapons appear in the series. Can anyone find a picture of these long westerosi spears that are going to wreck the Unsullied?
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