Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

[Crown]

By the way, just in case it hasn't been mentioned D&D have confirmed that the "Hold the Door" = "Hodor" thing came directly from George not something that they made up;

[General Zod]

The Iron Islands seem to be populated with a bunch of crazy fucks that strongly agree with the idea of the strongest, most badass individuals being in authority. If any group gives no shits about kin slaying it'd be them.

Fantastic acting out of Sam Coleman, the kid who played Young Wylis. Conleth Hill (Varys) put in a damn good performance, too. His... distaste for magic was really showing during his initial interactions, but it was replaced with horror the more the Red Priestess said about his past. He may have had his doubts about the talents of the Lord of the Light, but at this point he definitely knows the worshipers have magical abilities. I can't see him being at all happy about getting involved with this, going forward.

Yara being able to rally enough people to make off with that many ships indicates that she's got a great deal of support. With that many she probably could have just killed Y'arrr-on Greyjoy, but maybe she didn't want to throw their lives away. With the headstart she has, she can go to whoever she damn well pleases and have plenty of defenses ready and waiting.

My wife said she knew there was a reason she didn't like the Brann plot in the books. Another character has been added to her list of fictional deaths she'll never get over. Hodor was just so damned nice!

It makes me wonder what they've got in store for Sam.

[Knife]

]You'd think if Balon was so universally reviled or commanded so little respect that no one would kill/arrest Euron on the spot AND he was able to get into "throw king over bridge" distance with no one knowing about it: someone else would have offed Balon a while back and have a moot well before Euron showed up to the party.

When the moot was originally going to start, the only viable Greyjoy was a woman. So, no other players with a claim were planning on making a move? No one who just missed their shot at being King spoke up? Theon was an actual heir and they treated him like shit for not being raised on the Iron Islands. He had to be baptized and then prove himself before anyone gave a damn about him and his men still tossed him to the wolves when things went South.

Euron shows up and it's all: "yea, let's follow this outsider who murdered the king and who's been everywhere but here while his brothers fought and died. He gives fancy speeches."

If they had such little respect for names/titles, why is Euron their go-to guy? Keep what you kill?

Euron told you, and small bits of dialogue backs it up the last few seasons. Balon has gotten them jack and shit during his reign but getting into wars they lose. I'm not saying they don't care about kin or loyalty to nobles, but seems they expect some return on that investment.

[Imperial Overlord]

Euron's of royal blood, a successful raider, and Balon was a disaster. Yara has some following but she's a woman in a kingdom never ruled by women and Theon's nonviable. It's believable that Euron would attract the following of those who didn't want to follow a woman or didn't want anything more to do with Balon's line. Killing off his rivals of royal blood is also a logical move, considering Euron's a ruthless dick with followers who are dicks. A problem with hereditary monarchy is that your closest rivals are often your closest kin so the prohibitions against kin slaying go out the window and the Iron Islands don't have monasteries to stick defeated rivals into and don't usually take the Black.

[Ralin]

A problem with hereditary monarchy is that your closest rivals are often your closest kin so the prohibitions against kin slaying go out the window

Seems like that's the sort of thing that the prohibition against kin-slaying would have come into being specifically to stop.

[Imperial Overlord]

Congratulations, you've discovered one of the reasons monarchy sucks hard. Prohibitions against kin slaying break down when you're dealing with life or death power struggles for all the marbles. The Nights Watch takes the place of sending your defeated rival to a monastery, which is one of the real world work arounds to this issue, but when you have the right to rule be connected to a blood line then the ambitions members of the bloodline become one of the greatest dangers to ruler. And that means kin slaying is on the table.

[Pelranius]

Euron's of royal blood, a successful raider, and Balon was a disaster. Yara has some following but she's a woman in a kingdom never ruled by women and Theon's nonviable. It's believable that Euron would attract the following of those who didn't want to follow a woman or didn't want anything more to do with Balon's line. Killing off his rivals of royal blood is also a logical move, considering Euron's a ruthless dick with followers who are dicks. A problem with hereditary monarchy is that your closest rivals are often your closest kin so the prohibitions against kin slaying go out the window and the Iron Islands don't have monasteries to stick defeated rivals into and don't usually take the Black.

Euron's already admitted to knocking off Balon, so he might as well go the whole hog.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Congratulations, you've discovered one of the reasons monarchy sucks hard. Prohibitions against kin slaying break down when you're dealing with life or death power struggles for all the marbles. The Nights Watch takes the place of sending your defeated rival to a monastery, which is one of the real world work arounds to this issue, but when you have the right to rule be connected to a blood line then the ambitions members of the bloodline become one of the greatest dangers to ruler. And that means kin slaying is on the table.

One of the board historians (such as Thanas, I would think) may know better as to how... blatant you could be about having relatives killed back in the era GoT/ASoIaF is supposed to emulate. I would think that "I threw my brother off a bridge, what now?" isn't going to endear you to those who can "elect" you. Unless it's the Iron Islands, but they're the group most likely to give Westeros a somewhat damp version of the Mad King.

[FaxModem1]

My question is where exactly are Thoen and Yara going to go, I doubt the Lannisters, the Boltons, the Tullies, or the Tyrells would welcome them. Are they really planning on bending the knee to Dany?

Also, I understand the desperation of the Children of the Forest, but you think they would want to create a superweapon they could actually control. Unless we're going to get a revelation later that the White Walkers/Others evolved to beyond their programming somehow.

[Imperial Overlord]

One of the board historians (such as Thanas, I would think) may know better as to how... blatant you could be about having relatives killed back in the era GoT/ASoIaF is supposed to emulate. I would think that "I threw my brother off a bridge, what now?" isn't going to endear you to those who can "elect" you. Unless it's the Iron Islands, but they're the group most likely to give Westeros a somewhat damp version of the Mad King.

How blatant you could be depended on when and where you're talking about. Richard III of England was widely believed to have murdered his nephews and the Ottoman Sultans had a long standing problem of the heirs murdering each other off to seize and secure the succession until the solution of imprisoning most of them in gilded cages so they were harmless was hit upon. The Christian world retained the option of packing troublesome rivals off to monasteries and long terms of imprisonment for troublesome relatives was far from unknown so their were options besides killing that could be and were exercised. The Eastern Roman Empire mostly managed with monasteries with the occasional blinding thrown in with actual kin slaying rare, but the Julio-Claudian dynasty shed a fair amount of its own blood.

[Ralin]

My question is where exactly are Thoen and Yara going to go, I doubt the Lannisters, the Boltons, the Tullies, or the Tyrells would welcome them. Are they really planning on bending the knee to Dany?

The obvious choice would be to declare the Iron Islands a lost cause and fuck off to be pirates somewhere.

But there's no way the show will write them out like that, so I'm guessing they go ally with Dorne or something.

[TheFeniX]

Euron told you, and small bits of dialogue backs it up the last few seasons. Balon has gotten them jack and shit during his reign but getting into wars they lose. I'm not saying they don't care about kin or loyalty to nobles, but seems they expect some return on that investment.

If he was such a disaster, no viable (male heir), security was so lax, and they pay only lip service to names, kings, and kin: why hadn't someone offed him well before that? If they respect strength over names, there's no reason to let Balon keep dicking around like he did. I'm surprised he wasn't supplanted right after Eddard kicked his teeth in and killed/stole all his heirs. But knowing what we know now, why does it take Euron showing up for someone to make a move? No one came to Yara (or even Theon when he showed up) and said "Your dad is shit, we need new blood here."

No one but Yara said a word about Balon being murdered. I don't even recall some grumbling. He was that hated, his army in shambles, his security so weak, and he was still alive? Why didn't some other house Lord just run him through at a meeting? But mutiny or rebellion only seems to happen when it's convenient to the story. This whole affair actually makes about as much sense to me as the Dorne bullshit.

And Yara didn't just have some support. It was looking like her crowning was a given before Euron showed up. The men weren't grumbling about her speech, they were cheering her.

Euron just got more cheers. He got more cheers by coming up with a plan that is not the way Ironborn do business. And I still don't get the immediate "Yea, let's all go do this" to Euron ordering Yara's death (Theon, I get). She still leads troops. She's still an effective leader. No grumbling, no nothing. Just "whoops, we can't murder another one of our own we were seconds away from making Queen because she stole most of our ships."

The Ironborn are pale Dothraki. They steal and rape to support themselves. However, how much raping can they honestly do to support their bullshit? Unlike the Dothraki who have a large landmass to rape/demand tribute for new children to grow into soldiers. Not to mention the amount of just general slaves that are likely given to them by the masters to keep them away. But the Ironborn? How have they not turned to just butchering each other? By the leadership of a king they all hate?

I'm yelling at clouds here, I fully admit. The Ironborn are just poorly written morons being used to move the plot along. At least it's entertaining though.

[General Zod]

I'd wager nobody else had the stones to make a go at the throne. Maybe none of the other factions had quite as much of the support as Yara did. Could be any number of things.

[Knife]

If he was such a disaster, no viable (male heir), security was so lax, and they pay only lip service to names, kings, and kin: why hadn't someone offed him well before that? If they respect strength over names, there's no reason to let Balon keep dicking around like he did. I'm surprised he wasn't supplanted right after Eddard kicked his teeth in and killed/stole all his heirs. But knowing what we know now, why does it take Euron showing up for someone to make a move? No one came to Yara (or even Theon when he showed up) and said "Your dad is shit, we need new blood here."

God, you act like it's black and white. Either everyone follows lockstep with the nobility or it's a free for all murder fest. I mentioned in my first post on the subject that I doubt it's normal but not as taboo as in other locals in Westeros. The iron isles definitely have been both written and portrayed in the books to respect deeds and action and not just heredity. It's been pounded into our head.

No one but Yara said a word about Balon being murdered. I don't even recall some grumbling. He was that hated, his army in shambles, his security so weak, and he was still alive? Why didn't some other house Lord just run him through at a meeting? But mutiny or rebellion only seems to happen when it's convenient to the story. This whole affair actually makes about as much sense to me as the Dorne bullshit.

So Balon was powerful and people didn't want to take a swing for the bleachers, until Euron shows up and swings for the bleachers because he is powerful and successful. Wow, it's like so hard to imagine. lol.

And Yara didn't just have some support. It was looking like her crowning was a given before Euron showed up. The men weren't grumbling about her speech, they were cheering her.

Again you're trying to paint it black and white. All I'm suggesting is that out of all the sub cultures of the Seven Kingdoms, the Iron Isles would, while NOT NORMAL, would be more akin to tolerate things like kin/kingslaying since they appreciate success and accomplishments above blood. Yara was both the child of the last king and accomplished in her own right so she had both things going for her until Euron showed up with his gender, heredity, and accomplishments plus the balls to admit he chopped off dead weight of Balon and framed him as a loser, which the Iron Isles peeps don't like.

Euron just got more cheers. He got more cheers by coming up with a plan that is not the way Ironborn do business. And I still don't get the immediate "Yea, let's all go do this" to Euron ordering Yara's death (Theon, I get). She still leads troops. She's still an effective leader. No grumbling, no nothing. Just "whoops, we can't murder another one of our own we were seconds away from making Queen because she stole most of our ships."

I noticed that her supporters were a bit busy stealing the fleet while Euron was getting cheers for his plan. Her peeps were cheering for her, on the boats.

The Ironborn are pale Dothraki. They steal and rape to support themselves. However, how much raping can they honestly do to support their bullshit? Unlike the Dothraki who have a large landmass to rape/demand tribute for new children to grow into soldiers. Not to mention the amount of just general slaves that are likely given to them by the masters to keep them away. But the Ironborn? How have they not turned to just butchering each other? By the leadership of a king they all hate?

No one said they unanimously hated Balon, just that a stronger more successful person stepped up and they decided to follow him. That said, I do agree that the story behind the Iron Islands is a bit thin. They are obvious wannabe Vikings with little attention to their life when not raiding. We see stuff like obvious fishing when Theon came home, I believe there is some dialogue about trade, but yeah, besides a small nation of raiders and pirates, they're pretty 2 dimensional. Maybe you can be lucky and they'll wrap up that plot line quick like Dorne.

I'm yelling at clouds here, I fully admit. The Ironborn are just poorly written morons being used to move the plot along. At least it's entertaining though.

Ok, I can agree with you there.

[Guardsman Bass]

I never got a vibe that Euron is going to last long. I'm betting he dies attempting to sack Oldtown (or in the show, wherever Sam is), pushing Sam to leave again. Whatever it is, the show-runners considered it important enough to send him south even as they've changed tons of other stuff.

It's almost a pity the Ironborn are two-bit Viking stereotypes that worship Cthulu in the show. They were much more interesting in the books, with the implication that the whole "Old Way" and reaving was a reactionary movement sort of like the "Redeemer" and "Solid South" stuff in the US.

[Pelranius]

I hope that would settle the Coldhands identity, but I doubt it.

Maybe Randyll Tarly and Westero's own Trump can mutual kill each other in the inevitable Ironborn attack on the Reach.

Is it just me, or did the actor for Lame Lothar Frey change? And where's the rest of the other Frey sons?

Dany is getting more and more messianic imagery around her, from a meta POV, I suppose that increases the chances of her becoming the final villain.

[Elfdart]

My question is where exactly are Thoen and Yara going to go, I doubt the Lannisters, the Boltons, the Tullies, or the Tyrells would welcome them. Are they really planning on bending the knee to Dany?

Also, I understand the desperation of the Children of the Forest, but you think they would want to create a superweapon they could actually control. Unless we're going to get a revelation later that the White Walkers/Others evolved to beyond their programming somehow.

It's a recurring theme in the show: letting slip the dogs of war, only to get bitten in the balls. Dragons, wights, Frankenmountain, Wildfire, civil war, wildlings, religious fanatics as policemen, etc etc etc.

A few thoughts about last night's episode:

Once again the Danerys thread is a bore.

FINALLY Arya's thread is becoming interesting again.

Uncle Benjen -about fucking time!

The Lannisters just got PWNED by a beggar with a bible. Tywin's not turning in his grave -he's clawing his way out!

Fuck you Walder Frey!

My girlfriend insisted on stopping the show and rewinding to where Gilly walks out in her dress, again and again and again before she stopped holding the DVR hostage and let us watch the rest of the episode. While this was annoying, I have to say that Gilly, all dolled up like a Disney princess, is about the prettiest thing I've seen on TV in some time.

Sam's father isn't just a shit-bag of a parent, he makes the Great Santini look like Ward Cleaver. Maybe he'll become the anti-Stannis. Otherwise, fuck him. The younger brother, the mom and the sister seemed to be rather nice, though.

Alright Sam! Take that sword +5 vs white walkers!

Maybe Randyll Tarly and Westero's own Trump can mutual kill each other in the inevitable Ironborn attack on the Reach.

Sam, along with Brienne, is one of the few "good guys" on the show who isn't a fucking idiot. So maybe his decision to take Gilly and Little Sam with him to college was the right one. If Jon, Robb, Ned or Sansa had made the decision, I'd be 100% certain the girl and the toddler would be slaughtered.

[Ralin]

So is it just me or was Sam stealing Heartsbane really fucking stupid? He can't use it, he has every reason to think he won't be back at the Wall for years so he won't have the chance to give it to someone who can use it against the Others and stealing from your host has to count as a guest right violation.

[Vympel]

So is it just me or was Sam stealing Heartsbane really fucking stupid? He can't use it, he has every reason to think he won't be back at the Wall for years so he won't have the chance to give it to someone who can use it against the Others and stealing from your host has to count as a guest right violation.

Its his family's sword and he's part of the family. Clearly, it'll get used which is why he took it

But in context, its an act of rebellion.

General thoughts on the episode follow:

Solid:

- Benjen's entrance was awesome. I have no idea how his flame-flail works, but it was an epic idea.
- I felt like Mace Tyrell. "What's happening?" Its not clear to me if Marg has been legitimately stockholmed, or she's playing a long con. Mace looked appropriately ridiculous.
- The new Kingsguard armor, with the 7 pointed star! Very cool idea.
- Jaime throwing off his armor is a callback to Barristan's dismissal.
- Tommen is such a useless little twat.
- Walder Frey! Edmure! Blackfish! Brotherhood without Banners! House Mallister has risen up! House Blackwood has risen up! Awesome.
- Sam and Gilly - good to see Sam take Heartsbane, but would've liked to see him speak up for himself to his dick of a father. Great scene. Horn Hill looks very rich. Not exactly a castle though.
- Loved the Lord Umber mention re: Sam & Gilly's dinner.
- Bran's visions were very cool. Wildfire never blew up in King's Landing before, so I can only assume it will in the future.
- Arya's finally coming back! But is this what the FM's intended all along?

Things I didn't like:

- I really don't like Jaime and Cersei's relationship in the show. I've been holding out hope that Jaime will realise that Cersei doesn't really love him - and will find out about Lancel - for seasons, and I've given up hope of it happening. Its just all Twincest Power Couple, All the Time, and Jaime's story is suffering for it.
- Dany's scene at the end. Drogon is huge and awesome, but the entire scene felt like a tacked on orphan. Also, mighty convenient that Dany needs 1,000 ships.

Possible continuity blooper, or clever?

In the vision of Mad King Aerys' death, the sword decoration behind the Iron Throne - which was not there in Season 1 (Joff installed it in Season 2) - is there. We can assume that Joffrey's decoration of the throne room is an actual reversion to how it looked in Targaryen days (minor the dragon heads) - after all, he did mention the Targaryen's while the redecoration was going on.

Also:

http://imageshack.com/a/img923/2631/Zi0Vt7.jpg

Ned's hand (bracer is the giveaway) - Lyanna's blood.

[Elfdart]

Is that some kind of wound in the top left of that photo, or maybe a botched cesarean?

[Knife]

Is that some kind of wound in the top left of that photo, or maybe a botched cesarean?

If that is a cesarean, they did it wrong. It's vertical and on the right side of the body, instead of horizontal and across the lower ABD where the kid would be. It is pretty long though, so probably not a stab wound. Looks more like a slash.

[Simon_Jester]

If he was such a disaster, no viable (male heir), security was so lax, and they pay only lip service to names, kings, and kin: why hadn't someone offed him well before that? If they respect strength over names, there's no reason to let Balon keep dicking around like he did.

Because, aside from Balon's immediate family, very few individuals in the Islands actually had the political strength to make a credible bid for the throne? Perhaps those few individuals were personally loyal enough to Balon that they wouldn't outright have him assassinated. Perhaps Balon himself had taken some pains to ensure that no strong rivals would emerge who might decide to off him the first time things looked bad. It's hardly unusual for an adequate king to remain on the throne until his death without being assassinated, even when there is no clear line of succession.

I'm surprised he wasn't supplanted right after Eddard kicked his teeth in and killed/stole all his heirs.

At that time, doing so would probably have just resulted in Robert bringing down the hammer on the Isles again, because he'd just got done suppressing one "too big for his britches" ruler of those same islands and securing a hostage for his good behavior.

But knowing what we know now, why does it take Euron showing up for someone to make a move? No one came to Yara (or even Theon when he showed up) and said "Your dad is shit, we need new blood here."

In the Islander frame of reference, Yara's a woman. Theon is of doubtful strength and is not respected after his return from time with the Starks, and after his capture by Ramsay Snow at Winterfell, is a broken remnant of a man.

Theon wouldn't even be approached, and they only consider Yara, in the absence of other strong claimants, because she goes a long way outside typical female gender roles to earn their support.

No one but Yara said a word about Balon being murdered. I don't even recall some grumbling. He was that hated, his army in shambles, his security so weak, and he was still alive? Why didn't some other house Lord just run him through at a meeting? But mutiny or rebellion only seems to happen when it's convenient to the story. This whole affair actually makes about as much sense to me as the Dorne bullshit.

No one has an incentive to kill Balon unless they think they can take the throne afterwards. Since (in the TV version) no one even tries to do so at the Kingsmoot except Yara and Euron, it may well be that there is literally no one in the Isles who thinks they can do it. In which case Balon stays in power because he does manage at least some military successes, and presumably by selectively weakening powerful rivals.

The Ironborn are pale Dothraki. They steal and rape to support themselves. However, how much raping can they honestly do to support their bullshit? Unlike the Dothraki who have a large landmass to rape/demand tribute for new children to grow into soldiers. Not to mention the amount of just general slaves that are likely given to them by the masters to keep them away. But the Ironborn? How have they not turned to just butchering each other? By the leadership of a king they all hate?

They seem to have been supporting themselves by fishing and mining- but, like the real Vikings only more so, their society contains a lot of pent-up violence that can very easily be turned on outside targets. Your average Ironborn miner or farmer would actively prefer being a pirate.

In times of enforced peace (i.e. before the death of Robert) they don't butcher each other and are forcibly stopped from butchering outsiders. But absent that enforced peace, they basically explode into a cloud of violent gas that will, like any other gas, expand to fill the available space until it runs up against something that can stop it. And, like gas molecules, they smash against each other as well as against outsiders.

Is that some kind of wound in the top left of that photo, or maybe a botched cesarean?

If that is a cesarean, they did it wrong. It's vertical and on the right side of the body, instead of horizontal and across the lower ABD where the kid would be. It is pretty long though, so probably not a stab wound. Looks more like a slash.

C-Sections were routinely done wrong on the rare occasions when they were attempted in ancient and medieval times. As far as I can determine they were done almost exclusively to save the babies of women who died during childbirth or when their pregnancy was highly advanced, which makes sense given that, well, surgery like that is pretty sure to kill the mother in the absence of modern surgical techniques. Even in the late 1800s the fatality rate from caesarians was something like 80%, and didn't start going down until the 1880s.

[Knife]

Fine, but even in an emergency, you don't grab the kids via the liver and lungs. If it was midline ABD I'd give it a fair shake but the only thing they're pulling out of that slash is a liver.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Cersei decides it's wise to play the long game. Wise choice.

Cersei believes the Faith Militant will actually recognize trial by combat. Not so wise.

[Elfdart]

She's an idiot who has been extremely lucky that someone else was always around to bail her out: Tywin, Tyrion, The Hound...

Now she's just got the Frankenmountain, who so far has never been tested in combat. What if he loses? What if he goes berserk and starts killing everything in sight, including Tommen?