David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

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David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Okay, so, I've been catching up a little on Game of Thrones and Gargoyles recently, and came up with this little idea.

Scenario one: David Xanatos of "Gargoyles" is transported to the Game of Thrones universe (TV, since I figure more people will likely be familiar with the show than the books now, though if you want to discuss the books as well, go ahead). He arrives with just the clothes on his back and a pocketfull of gold. Assume that Xanatos has read the books/watched the show in his free time, and so has some idea what he's getting into. Assume also that any linguistic barriers are hand waved by act of God/act of Puck and that, in keeping with how such scenarios have sometimes been treated in past threads, Xanatos's presence will alter the timeline so that any prophecies are no longer in effect (in other words, nothing is fated, anything is fair game).

Scenario two: As above, except that Xanatos does not come alone. Instead, Owen/Puck, Fox, Xanatos's son, Elisa, and the Gargoyles come with him, along with the Gargoyles' castle. They are deposited... oh, somewhere in the middle of Westeros, near the southern edge of Stark territory.

Does Xanatos's brand of affably pragmatic supervillainy prevail in the cut throat world of Game of Thrones? Or does he fail miserably?

Edited to add mention of the castle.

Edit: For anyone who's not aware of who Xanatos is, here are some clips of some of his finer moments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzu3IT590h4
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by FaxModem1 »

When does David Xanatos arrive? Because if it's at the end of season 5, his way and odds of influencing events will be drastically different than if he arrives right before episode 1.
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Let's say start of episode one, since that's when the show starts.

For Gargoyles... well, for Xanatos to have knowledge of Game of Thrones it would have to be present day, but the show was cancelled 20 years ago, we don't really know what 2016 Xanatos would be like. Then again, the Gargoyles world doesn't really fit the real world's timeline anyway. So, assume Xanatos and company are much as they were as of the season two finale (I understand that a lot of people prefer to regard season three as non-canon).
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by FaxModem1 »

Xanatos is going to have a troublesome first few months, due to his lack of real resources. However, I can see him travelling to Bravvos to invent and sell the steam engine, making himself very rich, and dominating the market there. After that, he might try and marry Danerys, as she's the rightful heir to the throne, and will need his political wheeling and dealing. With him knowing what's going to happen, he's going to be a king in three years, if not sooner.
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

In scenario 2, he's very well off. Even Lexington is stronger than the Mountain by a substantial amount, nevermind Goliath. He's got himself a group of (possible) allies that can tear steel with their bare hands. And with Puck/Owen around... Well, depending on if Puck can use his magic to help out or not, that can affect things immensely. If no Puck Magic, he's still damn competent as Owen.

Without back-up? He'd be at very high risk of being murdered by someone. He may be a manipulative jackass, but he's not on the same level is Littlefinger and doesn't have the same resources to start with that he had in New York. If he has his Gargoyle Suit, on the other hand...
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

FaxModem1 wrote:Xanatos is going to have a troublesome first few months, due to his lack of real resources. However, I can see him travelling to Bravvos to invent and sell the steam engine, making himself very rich, and dominating the market there. After that, he might try and marry Danerys, as she's the rightful heir to the throne, and will need his political wheeling and dealing. With him knowing what's going to happen, he's going to be a king in three years, if not sooner.
I actually wonder how useful Xanatos's technological know-how would be. He's a genius, but would he know how to invent old technology he's taken for granted his whole life, like the steam engine?

On the other hand, he's invented an advanced Iron Man-esque battle suit, a convincing duplicate humanoid robot, and a squadron of flying robot gargoyles. He's also quite willing and able to work with magic as well as technology, and integrate the two.

One question I wonder is weather he'd try to introduce guns. If he could use his know-how to amass enough wealth to outfit his own force of troops, and arm them with guns, he could field the first gunpowder army in that world.

And I do think, if it comes down to it, he can function without his modern tech. base. He time traveled to the Middle Ages once and did pretty well. Granted, he had instructions from his future self and his illuminati connections and was essentially profiting off a temporal loop he created, but at least we can see he knows shit like riding a horse and hand to hand combat that would be applicable to this setting, and has some experience negotiating with feudal nobility.

He also gets to bring any tech. in the castle with him in the second scenario. I hadn't meant to allow that, but in hindsight I think its for the best, as it will keep him from getting overrun by the first army that comes along while he builds a local power base, and it won't last long enough to give him an automatic victory. I'm assuming he won't be able to replace parts/fuel/ammunition in this setting, which means his battle suite, guns, anti-air defences, and robot guards (presuming they were rebuilt/repaired to full strength following the battle with Oberon- I'm not sure weather that was ever shown to be the case) will likely be good for a few battles, tops. Actually, best to save them, or at least the anti-air guns, until Danny shows up with her dragons, as they make Xanatos probably the only person in Westeros who has a dragon-proof castle. :D

Since I basically put him in Stark territory, I suppose he'll have to pledge allegiance to the Starks unless he wants a war right off the bat. I don't think Xanatos would object to that, at least in the short term, as he is ostensibly a law-abiding citizen of the United States in canon.;) Though he would doubtless try to cheat when and where he thought he could get away with it.

After that, the smart move would, yes, be to start using his business and technical know-how to start building up a trade empire.

One thing I'm wondering is, if he did manage to climb his way to the top, would Xanatos actually be an effective king? This is, after all, a nastier world than the one he is used to. Xanatos, particularly by the end of the series, is positively benevolent compared to a lot of GoT nobility, although he does demonstrate near-limitless ambition and arrogance at times.
Napoleon the Clown wrote:In scenario 2, he's very well off. Even Lexington is stronger than the Mountain by a substantial amount, nevermind Goliath. He's got himself a group of (possible) allies that can tear steel with their bare hands. And with Puck/Owen around... Well, depending on if Puck can use his magic to help out or not, that can affect things immensely. If no Puck Magic, he's still damn competent as Owen.
Given the time frame I set it in, Puck/Owen is stuck in human form and prohibited from using magic except when teaching or guarding Xanatos's son, as per Oberon's decree.

And the Gargoyles could probably mop the floor with any single warrior of GoT (barring magic, anyway). The problem is that their are only seven of them vs. armies of thousands and nations of millions. So Xanatos will have to hire sell-swords or conscript local peasants once his tech. breaks down/runs out of fuel/ammo, same as anyone else.
Without back-up? He'd be at very high risk of being murdered by someone. He may be a manipulative jackass, but he's not on the same level is Littlefinger and doesn't have the same resources to start with that he had in New York. If he has his Gargoyle Suit, on the other hand...
The gargoyle suite would just make him a high-profile target to attack when he's not in the suite so someone can steal the magic suite.
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by Vendetta »

The Romulan Republic wrote: I actually wonder how useful Xanatos's technological know-how would be. He's a genius, but would he know how to invent old technology he's taken for granted his whole life, like the steam engine?
Almost certainly, if you have any understanding of the principles of how engines work and sufficient resources you can get the rest right. Steam engines aren't very complicated, as long as you can get good enough quality metal for the pressure vessel.

Even without research I could probably reproduce the designs for at least a Newcomen engine and maybe also a locomotive type engine just from second hand knowledge about how they work (since my dad is a hobbyist and builds steam engines for fun since he retired).

The difficulty in a medieval type world though will be getting someone to make a copper pressure vessel that's strong enough and uniform enough in strength that it won't rupture under pressure. Steam engines are pretty simple machines but they have relatively catastrophic failure modes available to them.
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Hmm... what information do we have on the quality of GoT metal/metalworking?
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by NecronLord »

Forget steam, for now. The things he can really do is introduce the printing press, and gunpowder assuming he knows the local word for 'saltpeter' then it is comparatively easy to make. Even without advanced technologies, he knows the principles of woodcut printing and movable type, neither of which are in evidence in ASOFaI and a printing press can be assembled. Both of these inventions are concepts that local smiths will be able to work out for you by trial and error, and once they're out there will take off like wildfire.
  • Move to Braavos - he needs to get to somewhere where birth and lineage means less.
  • Get stupendously wealthy from these and other incidental inventions.
  • Buy the election for Sealord.
  • Marry Daenerys (Optional) - if he wants to do this early he can report Illyrio Mopatis as a slaver to the Sealord, who is shown to be an activist who mounts net-loss expeditions against slave ships in the Narrow Sea, or threaten to expose Illyrio as such to the Braavosi public (get a good lynch mob going) and then try and take her into his household.
  • Raise Dragons (Optional - but he's read the books apparently)
  • Conquer world. (Optional)
Once he's secure in Braavos, he can also make the Lannisters his bitch by threatening to reveal that they actually have no gold under Casterley Rock any more, because again he's read the books. After Joffrey becomes king, that by default means he can control Westeros, as Tywin won't cross anyone who can effectively induce his bannermen to desert him - their power is built on their wealth.

All of that requires surviving existing power groups pushing back against him, and generally remaining secure in his person, and I know nothing of his ability to do so, except that he's apparently a byword for foreplanning.

I note that you've not listed 'conquer westeros' or 'conquer world' as goals? If they're not, then he can simply make a tidy living off being the world's greatest inventor.
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Well, he's the namesake of TV Tropes' "Xanatos Gambit", which is basically about setting up a scenario so that all possible outcomes benefit you in some way.

It occurs to me that giving him knowledge of the books/show might have been weighting it too much in his favour. How much would it change things if he had to start from scratch in an unfamiliar world? No gold-related Lannister blackmail for one. I don't know if it would change much in terms of the dragons, really, because it would be a while before they hatch, and Xanatos would hear about them soon enough.

Though I doubt weather he would really be able to blackmail the Lannisters effectively with that information about the gold. I suspect Tywin would just say "Where's your proof?", and then send assassins after him. Xanatos would have to have some evidence to confirm it, which probably means getting a highly-placed spy inside the Lannister household. I'm not saying Xanatos couldn't do that, but it would take time and carry a certain level of risk.

As to the rest... a lot of what you suggest would only be feasible if its Xanatos on his own, and he doesn't have to worry about the castle and his household. Moving to Braavos is out, unless he's willing to abandon the castle (which he's probably pragmatic enough to do) and is either willing to abandon the gargoyles or able to convince them to leave as well (that'll be a hard sell, though not impossible). Marrying Daenerys is out as well if Fox is along. Which means that the scenario that gives him more resources to start with may actually be the more difficult one, not only because it makes him a more obvious target from the start but because it gives him less tactical and strategic flexibility.

Still, I like the basic outline of your plan: Move to somewhere less feudal, use technical knowledge to build financial empire, buy election, marry into nobel house, take over world.

Another option for scenario two, if marrying a nobel himself is out, might be to arrange a marriage between his young son and the daughter of a royal. I guess that comes down to how flexible Xanatos and Fox are when it comes to modern values vs. medieval values regarding marriage. Its not something that ever came up in the series, to my knowledge, but it should be noted that if there's one thing Xanatos isn't really ruthlessly pragmatic about, its his family.
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by NecronLord »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Though I doubt weather he would really be able to blackmail the Lannisters effectively with that information about the gold. I suspect Tywin would just say "Where's your proof?",
"A Magister in Braavos (and Braavosi know about money) says the mines have gone dry at Casterley rock" would have all of Tywin's bannermen investigating. In Westeros even rumours tend to be damaging.
and then send assassins after him. Xanatos would have to have some evidence to confirm it, which probably means getting a highly-placed spy inside the Lannister household. I'm not saying Xanatos couldn't do that, but it would take time and carry a certain level of risk.
Or just put it out there and let Tywin's household do it for him. They're only loyal as long as they think the money's coming indefinitely.

As for assassins, yeah, any plan rests on his ability to be personally secure.

What's his goal?
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

To my knowledge, Xanatos has at least two primary goals, initially, in the series.

1. Aquire wealth.
2. Gain immortality.

And obviously, secure himself and his assets against any enemies.

Three quotes that illustrate his mindset from my link in the OP, all from the same scene I believe:

"What good are all the riches on Earth if Fox and I can't enjoy them forever?"

"Nothing terrifies me, because nothing is beyond my ability to change."

"Death and old age have their price as well, and its too expensive for me."

He does not, to my knowledge, ever pursue political power, although as he points out early in the series, the corporation he runs is more powerful than some countries.

Also, he seems to want to earn his father's respect, though that isn't really applicable here. And he seems to genuinely enjoy going out and adventuring, fighting in his suite, getting his hands dirty.

As the series goes on, his priorities shift more to protecting the welfare of his family and household. He'll do pretty much anything to protect his son, and will feel gratitude to those who help him do so.
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by NecronLord »

If that's what he wants, it seems likely he'd hare off after how the Warlocks of Qarth do it and not really be significant to anyone else, and no doubt the knowledge of gunpowder and printing and other movable type would be valuable to the warlocks to restore their temporal power.

It's very strongly implied they're immortal after all.
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by FaxModem1 »

Well, in the series proper, David Xanatos true goal was to achieve money and power(which were pretty much done before the series starts), and once that was done, achieve immortality.

The warlocks might seem like a place to go, but the warlocks seemed more like tricksters with powers of illusion than anything real. Could be useful, but the best they can give Xanatos is a lotus eater style dream.
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

NecronLord wrote:I note that you've not listed 'conquer westeros' or 'conquer world' as goals? If they're not, then he can simply make a tidy living off being the world's greatest inventor.
I think I overlooked this before, so I'll address it now.

No, I did not specifically list world conquest or conquest of Westeros as a goal. But that's fine, because it gives a bit more flexibility about how Xanatos pursues his goals.

As to weather Xanatos would pursue such a goal...

To my knowledge, while the possibility of Xanatos taking over the world was discussed on Gargoyles (their was a possible vision/possible illusion in season two which played with the idea), he never actually attempted to do so. He did allude to wanting to have all the riches on Earth, as I quoted above. But my take on him is that he's probably less interested in overt political power than in wealth and scientific/magical power and manipulating things behind the scenes.

That said, he's a very ambitious man with a tendency to think outside the box, and one who doesn't seem to accept the concept of "limits". This is a man who heard about a group of Gargoyles who were permanently turned to stone by a spell that would only be broken when their castle flew above the clouds, and responded by paying to have the entire castle dismantled stone by stone, flown across the Atlantic, and assembled on top of his skyscraper.

So I think that Xanatos might try to take over the world if he decided it was the only way he could achieve his objectives.

Otherwise, he'd be content to pull a Tywin and play the wealthy puppet master in the background (albeit almost certainly being less of a dick than Tywin).
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by Q99 »

Vendetta wrote: Almost certainly, if you have any understanding of the principles of how engines work and sufficient resources you can get the rest right. Steam engines aren't very complicated, as long as you can get good enough quality metal for the pressure vessel.

Even without research I could probably reproduce the designs for at least a Newcomen engine and maybe also a locomotive type engine just from second hand knowledge about how they work (since my dad is a hobbyist and builds steam engines for fun since he retired).

The difficulty in a medieval type world though will be getting someone to make a copper pressure vessel that's strong enough and uniform enough in strength that it won't rupture under pressure. Steam engines are pretty simple machines but they have relatively catastrophic failure modes available to them.
Making them useful is the tricky bit- didn't ancient Greece have some steam contraptions? I'm not sure how much the inventor angle could be played here.


However, the skills at managing people and manipulating others... very useful.
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by Vendetta »

Q99 wrote:
Making them useful is the tricky bit- didn't ancient Greece have some steam contraptions? I'm not sure how much the inventor angle could be played here.


However, the skills at managing people and manipulating others... very useful.

Ancient Greece had some steam toys, but they didn't have sufficiently advanced metallurgy to make a high pressure vessel.

That's the big challenge in a pre-industrial world. You need someone who can cast a large consistent pressure vessel. If you don't have that then when you build up steam pressure small irregularities in the metal of your pressure vessel mean it can rupture, which basically means it explodes.

Finding something to do with steam power is easy. Anything that needs to be hammered, turned, or pumped can be done with a Newcomen Engine (basically the simplest steam engine). I'm sure Westeros has iron, coal, and other metal mining somewhere because they always seem to have plenty of swords around, and their mines need pumping gear just as much as ours did. The design of a steam engine is easy, (I could sketch either a Newcomen or a locomotive type boiler from memory just because my dad builds live steam models and has sketches lying around), building one that won't explode in a pre-industrial world? More difficult. (Though you can skip to a watt/centrifugal governor if you can design one of those too)

You basically have to build the rest of an industrial infrastructure as well. You need blast furnaces, large scale iron casting, and other things that don't exist yet because nobody has thought of them. (So start with an already high output iron smelting operation and introduce them to industrial blast furnaces, assuming you can get someone who can build them of high enough quality, and then their suppliers to a Newcomen Engine to pump their mines out and let them mine deeper).
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by Solauren »

Xanatos is boned in scenario #1.

He's in strange clothes, not armed, in the middle of nowhere (as far as he's concerned), without his public support base (his company/wealth), or his secret support base (the Illuminati).

Unlike Tyrion, who was in a similar situation after his time in the Aerie, he doesn't have a rich family reputation to use to help by off the first group of bandits the decide he'd be a quick score.

His only chance is if he happens to land in Braavos directly. Then the entire 'build up his wealth' has a chance.


Scenario #2 is more interesting, but has it's own problems.

The Gargoyles are useless during the day. So it's him, Owen, Fox, and Elisa trying to hold a castle against attackers (should it get down to that)
(Plus the Steel Clan if they are there, and possibly Coldstone and Coldsteel, plus a possible Coyote model)

They have no demonstrated food production, and I doubt the power generators are inside the castle.

Unless Xanatos has some kick ass solar panels for the castle (which, I'll admit, is a possibility), or a fusion reactor in a spare room (which I admit is a possibility), any energy weapons they have will eventually run out of power.

Now, IF the castle has power generation capabilities, and better yet fabrication facilities, we're in business. With that, given time, Xanatos could royally fuck with the entire planet, without the help of the Gargoyles.

If Xanatos Jr has his magic developed to any measurable point (i.e tossing fireballs), well, we have a functional Fey-God lose, without any real opposition.


If the has the resources to do so, if he stays out of the fighting for a few seasons, and quietly builds up resources via mining/theft, you essentially end up with a 'Skynet invades the middle ages' scenario.
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by FaxModem1 »

Well, we know from when Oberon attacked David Xanatos's skyscraper, that David Xanatos does have his own power generators inside the building, as Oberon is finally able to bypass the building's defenses by going to the basement and disabling them.
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

So it looks like the answer for scenario one is basically "Xanatos settles in Braavos and builds up his wealth there or he's probably fucked."

For scenario two, the key question appears to be weather he'll have the resources to maintain his advanced technology for long.

Personally, I'm skeptical. He does have power generators in his building, as well as cyborg guards and a forcefield (presuming he rebuilt all that after "The Gathering" two parter- the Steel Clan bots at least were probably rebuilt, because he uses them and loses them regularly). However, I specified that the castle was transported, not the full skyscraper, so the forcefield and generators will likely be out. At best, he'll have his bots and maybe some AA guns if they have their own power sources. And eventually he will run out of fuel and ammunition if forced to resist a protracted siege.

So the second scenario likely entails abandoning the castle when the first army comes along, unless he's built up a local power base strong enough to hold it, and taking whatever they can carry, but at least he'll have some retainers/guards in this scenario.
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by Q99 »

Solauren wrote:Xanatos is boned in scenario #1.

He's in strange clothes, not armed, in the middle of nowhere (as far as he's concerned), without his public support base (his company/wealth), or his secret support base (the Illuminati).

Unlike Tyrion, who was in a similar situation after his time in the Aerie, he doesn't have a rich family reputation to use to help by off the first group of bandits the decide he'd be a quick score.
Though it does help he's a skillful fighter. If it's just a few bandits, "Fighting them off and taking their stuff," is a possibility.
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Quite.

Although he realies heavily on technology in combat. He's not bad at hand to hand by any means, but I'd wager that, unarmed and unarmored, more than one or two skilled warriors would probably be too much for him. Think Iron Man in the more recent Marvel films- not a bad fighter, but not anything really superhuman if he's unsuited.

Edit: I'm actually curious as to weather Xanatos knows anything about handling a sword now. He usually fights using an armoured suite, but he's competent with guns and bare-handed combat. However, I don't recall him ever using a sword. That could be a liability in this setting.
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by FTeik »

Didn't Xanatos, his geriatric father and Fox fight of a bunch of bandits in that episode, where they travelled into the past to set Xanatos rise to power into motion? And all they had there with them were their wedding attires?

I also doubt, that in the first scenario Xanatos remains unarmed for long (and if it is just a stick he is preparating). He grew up in Maine as son of a down-to-earth fisherman so he probably participated in lots of out-door activities and worked aboard his father's boat. Also your typical bandits aren't trained fighters, so he should be able to deal with three to four of them on his own, if he doesn't convince them to let him join them and take the bunch over.
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Re: David Xanatos plays the Game of Thrones.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

FTeik wrote:Didn't Xanatos, his geriatric father and Fox fight of a bunch of bandits in that episode, where they travelled into the past to set Xanatos rise to power into motion? And all they had there with them were their wedding attires?
They did, but they were fighting alongside a local nobleman, who was the bandits' intended target. Likewise, Fox (and, if it comes down to it, Xanatos' father, as "The Gathering Part II" showed) are no slouch in a fight. Hell, Fox is basically Catwoman if she was a redhead and had a bit more scientific expertise and media savvy.

Put Xanatos alone in that scenario, and I doubt that he'd have emerged the victory. He's good, but hand to hand combat isn't his primary area of expertise, and at the end of the day, he's only human.
I also doubt, that in the first scenario Xanatos remains unarmed for long (and if it is just a stick he is preparating). He grew up in Maine as son of a down-to-earth fisherman so he probably participated in lots of out-door activities and worked aboard his father's boat. Also your typical bandits aren't trained fighters, so he should be able to deal with three to four of them on his own, if he doesn't convince them to let him join them and take the bunch over.
Again, I'm not sure a weapon would make much of a difference. Xanatos has demonstrated skill with barehanded combat and guns. I don't recall him ever showing any particular skill with melee weapons.

I suppose he could try to get them to work for him, but what would he have to offer that they couldn't simply take?

Edit: Maybe, like you said, if he joined up and then worked his way up to the top. Guess it depends on weather he can convince the bandits that he'd be a useful recruit, and weather they're open to taking on new members of the gang from foreign lands.
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