Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

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Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/ap ... solo-movie
Ben Affleck will direct and star in his own Batman movie, Warner Bros chairman and CEO Kevin Tsujihara has officially confirmed.


Batfleck begins: Ben Affleck 'has written his own Batman movie'
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Affleck is currently starring as the caped crusader in Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. He has generally been praised for his debut in the role, though Zack Snyder’s superhero epic has received short shrift from critics and looks likely to fall short of the magic $1bn mark at the box office despite a blistering worldwide opening weekend of $422.5m last month.

But speaking at the CinemaCon event in Las Vegas, Tsujihara touted Snyder’s movie as the perfect foundation for the studio’s planned cinematic universe based on its rights to the DC Comics back catalogue.

“It set up a great foundation for our DC slate, which includes at least 10 movies through 2020,” said Tsuijhara. “I’m also excited to know that we will be working with Ben Affleck on a stand-alone Batman movie.”

There have long been reports that Affleck, a recent Oscar-winner for his work as a film-maker on the period thriller Argo, would eventually take charge of Batman. Last month the actor and director’s agent, Patrick Whitesell at WME-IMG, told the Hollywood Reporter that his client had already written the script for his own film.


Where does Batman v Superman's mauling leave Warner's plan for a DC comics cinematic universe?
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Affleck is also due to return as the dark knight of Gotham in two Justice League movies, in which he will team up with Henry Cavill’s Superman and Gal Gadot’s Wonder Woman to defend the Earth, though the shine has been somewhat taken off that prospect by the derisive critical response to Dawn of Justice.

The Hollywood Reporter suggests Affleck’s debut solo outing could arrive in cinemas for either 5 October, 2018 or 1 November, 2019, both of which have been set aside by Warner for unspecified comic book movies.

In other Batman news, delegates at CinemaCon were treated to a sneak peek at the new Lego Batman movie, revealing the first big screen appearance for the caped crusader’s perennial sidekick Robin since Joel Schumacher’s disastrous 1997 outing, Batman & Robin. The clip reportedly reveals that the new Robin, voiced by Michael Cera, is the caped crusader’s adopted son, Batman having accidentally returned from a swanky gala some years before with the fledgling crime fighter in tow. It also emerges that Robin’s red and green costume originated as Batman’s “Reggae Man” outfit from a long ago “caper” in Jamaica.
Good. He was excellent in Batman V Superman, whatever failings the film had.

And has their ever been a Batman film directed by someone with a Best Director Oscar before?

Though I do worry that by staring and directing, he'll be spreading himself too thin, and his performance may suffer.

Edit: Correction, Affleck didn't win Best Director. According to IMDB, it was Best Picture that he got for Argo. Either way, I think this film is in pretty good hands.
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

If you've never seen The Town, that's also a very ably directed movie that should reassure apprehensions. The principal problem with it was that it sort of felt meager next to other grand crime dramas and maybe needed to be another hour longer or so, which isn't really a directing failure at all. I think he'll do pretty well.

I'm glad someone finally figured out that there's this widely acclaimed director on the set of their giant tentpole franchise who spent all this time being bossed around by the man who is to greenscreens what Michael Bay is to practical explosions. I worry that Snyder might confine Affleck's options for scripting or worse, oblige him to maintain his ugly-ass visual effects style in the name of continuity, but I'm quite able to wait and see if that's true.
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

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Either way, I'm glad Affleck's getting a Snyder-free solo film. He deserves it after Batman V Superman, and seriously, fuck Zach Snyder.

Edit: I mean, like you said, Snyder may have some supervisory role. But at least he won't be directing, and I hope they don't micromanage Affleck.
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

The real question is who writes it, and on which comic arc (if any) it is specifically based on. Affleck is a good actor and a good director, but it will be difficult to overcome a horribly written script or a bad story.
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

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TFA made clear that Affleck is writing it.
I had a Bill Maher quote here. But fuck him for his white privelegy "joke".

All the rest? Too long.
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

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Which could be bad or good. I dunno how good Affleck is at writing superhero films.

Also has Affleck directed large blockbuster action films, since even if he's a good director (I haven't seen films directed by him to I can't say for certain) it doesn't mean he's good at directing everything.
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

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Good. He was excellent in Batman V Superman, whatever failings the film had.
I don't know why people keep saying this. Don't get me wrong he wasn't bad. But it wasn't a great feat of acting or anything. he just had to look grouchy and grim and do a better batvoice than bale.
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

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Lord Revan wrote:Which could be bad or good. I dunno how good Affleck is at writing superhero films.

Also has Affleck directed large blockbuster action films, since even if he's a good director (I haven't seen films directed by him to I can't say for certain) it doesn't mean he's good at directing everything.
I think it helps he's been in other Superhero films before (and Daredevil, while not perfect, was a reasonable superhero film), and is friends with Kevin Smith.

So, I trust him. Or at least, I trust him faaar more than Snyder.
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

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Crazedwraith wrote:
Good. He was excellent in Batman V Superman, whatever failings the film had.
I don't know why people keep saying this. Don't get me wrong he wasn't bad. But it wasn't a great feat of acting or anything. he just had to look grouchy and grim and do a better batvoice than bale.
I'm not saying it was Oscar worthy, but he gave a solid performance (in my opinion, probably the best film Batman yet), and it was one of the highlights of the film. Although partly I think its that so many people were expecting him to suck, and were pleasantly surprised when he didn't.
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

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The Romulan Republic wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
Good. He was excellent in Batman V Superman, whatever failings the film had.
I don't know why people keep saying this. Don't get me wrong he wasn't bad. But it wasn't a great feat of acting or anything. he just had to look grouchy and grim and do a better batvoice than bale.
I'm not saying it was Oscar worthy, but he gave a solid performance (in my opinion, probably the best film Batman yet), and it was one of the highlights of the film. Although partly I think its that so many people were expecting him to suck, and were pleasantly surprised when he didn't.
People do realise that if they genuinely liked Batfleck* that's almost entirely down to Snyder right?

*For purposes of this discussion we're differentiating between Bruce Wayne and Batman
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

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One can appreciate an actor's work while recognizing that other aspects of the character were badly handled.
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

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The Romulan Republic wrote:One can appreciate an actor's work while recognizing that other aspects of the character were badly handled.
That's a non-answer; did you like The Batman in BvS? Because that is down to the director.
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

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Crown wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:One can appreciate an actor's work while recognizing that other aspects of the character were badly handled.
That's a non-answer; did you like The Batman in BvS? Because that is down to the director.
I don't know why the fuck you seem to be trying to pick a fight, but you're misrepresenting me.

I never said I liked the film's take on Batman (I found it interesting but flawed). I said I liked Affleck. As I said, you can appreciate a good performance while recognizing that other aspects of the character (like writing and direction) were flawed. Indeed, an actor who manages to give a good performance in spite of bad acting and direction is all the more praiseworthy.

You seem to be interrogating me over something I never said in an effort to expose a supposed contradiction that does not exist.

What I don't get is why. Like, do you care that much if I don't like Zach Snyder?
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

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The Romulan Republic wrote:
Crown wrote:That's a non-answer; did you like The Batman in BvS? Because that is down to the director.
I don't know why the fuck you seem to be trying to pick a fight, but you're misrepresenting me.
Picking a fight? Calm down precious. :lol:
The Romulan Republic wrote:I never said I liked the film's take on Batman (I found it interesting but flawed). I said I liked Affleck. As I said, you can appreciate a good performance while recognizing that other aspects of the character (like writing and direction) were flawed. Indeed, an actor who manages to give a good performance in spite of bad acting and direction is all the more praiseworthy.

You seem to be interrogating me over something I never said in an effort to expose a supposed contradiction that does not exist.
You just don't seem to get it. Let me state it again and ask you one last time; For purposes of this discussion we're differentiating between Bruce Wayne and Batman with that in mind did you like The Batman in BvS? Because that is down to the director. Bruce Wayne (by contrast) is more down to the actor. I'm asking you to clarify your comment.

And I'm not being hyperbolic here; I'm basing this on the interviews of Christian Bale, Ben Affleck, Amy Adams and the footage of the making of BvS.
The Romulan Republic wrote:What I don't get is why. Like, do you care that much if I don't like Zach Snyder?
It's not about me caring whether or not you do or don't like Snyder. It's just in this context it doesn't make sense to claim to like this Batman but hating the director who is almost entirely and solely responsible for putting him on screen.
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

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Lord Revan wrote:Also has Affleck directed large blockbuster action films, since even if he's a good director (I haven't seen films directed by him to I can't say for certain) it doesn't mean he's good at directing everything.
The guy who directed Happy Feet 1 and 2 directed Fury Road. Well, I should say, the guy who directed Mad Max 40 years ago directed Happy Feet. I also recall the guy directing Captain America doing nothing but TV comedies before-hand. What did Miller direct before Deadpool?

Honestly, established directors tend to annoy me more. Is there a Tim Burton movie you can't immediately peg as a Tim Burton movie even though he's directed all sorts, including Batman. Maybe Mars Attacks! (which was awesome, don't get me wrong).

Since "action movie" generally means "blow a bunch of shit up for no reason," I don't think you need someone especially skilled in that regard. Maybe you should find a director that can handle character interactions well, then have them just blow some shit up.

Been looking for this for a long time as I never owned the DVD that had the commentary, but heard about it after the movie came out. Cracked hooked me up: Here's Ben Affleck talking about dealing with Michael Bay during Armageddon's filming:

I like Ben Affleck.
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

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TheFeniX wrote:Since "action movie" generally means "blow a bunch of shit up for no reason," I don't think you need someone especially skilled in that regard. Maybe you should find a director that can handle character interactions well, then have them just blow some shit up.
It's tempting to dismiss action directing as an uncultured or baser form of directing that panders to the lowest common denominator, but that would be unbelievably mistaken for reasons that Nick Schager explained best:
"The Wolverine" is many things—another piece of Marvel's big-screen superhero puzzle, a sturdy vehicle for Hugh Jackman's soulful ferocity, a moderately gripping fish-out-of-water story of self-discovery and redemption. Yet just as important, it's an action film helmed by a director who is, by any reasonable measure, not an action director. Although he's staged solid, classically conceived action in "3:10 to Yuma" and "Copland," he's better known as an actor's director, more at home with the intimacy of "Girl, Interrupted" and "Walk the Line."

Even for a tentpole summer release based on a prized comic-book property, this is not an uncommon phenomenon; on the contrary, it's become standard operating procedure for the studios.

And it's also become the central problem for modern action movies, which have fallen into disarray because of who's now making them—and, as a result, how they're being made.

By employing directors with backgrounds in drama, the studios hope action-heavy films will be infused with greater depth. The catch, however, is that drama directors are usually inexperienced at, and thus incapable of, properly handling their material that is the film's main selling point, or one of them.

The outcome isn't pretty: action that gets the point across but lacks coherence, as well as the unique personality that the director was supposedly hired to provide.

"The Wolverine" is the latest example of this burgeoning trend. To name just a few examples from the past couple of years, "X-Men Origins: Wolverine" (dir: Gavin Hood), "Quantum of Solace" (dir: Mark Forster), "Skyfall" (dir: Sam Mendes), "Iron Man" (dir: John Favreau), "Thor" (dir: Kenneth Branagh), "Red" (dir: Robert Schwentke), and "The Avengers" (dir: Joss Whedon) were all brought to the screen by filmmakers whose careers were predicated on dramas or comedies, not action. That fad remains in full effect this summer, with "Iron Man 3" (dir: Shane Black), "R.I.P.D." (dir: Schwentke), "Red 2" (dir: Dean Parisot), "World War Z" (dir: Forster), and "The Wolverine" all overseen by men whose qualifications for these combat-heavy assignments aren't their proven ability to choreograph and cut action, but in their successes in other corners of the filmmaking world.

While no studio exec would dare hand over an Oscar-hopeful drama to Michael Bay, the opposite model—Hey, Marc Forster directed "Finding Neverland," so he's obviously the ideal candidate for a Bond film!—now reigns supreme.

This is, first and foremost, because the Michael Bay method of spastically shooting and editing auto chases, shootouts, and other CG-ified mayhem is easily replicated. That's not to say that Bay is a hack; his films have a distinctive car commercial sleekness and sexiness (not to mention a logistical scale) that's difficult to fully duplicate. But his process—which compiles lots of frenzied camera coverage—is one whose emphasis is in post-production. In other words, he films a ton, from as many angles as possible, and then assembles it in whatever way he pleases in the cutting room.

This disjointed style of directing action—embraced by Mangold's new Wolverine film, as well as most of its genre brethren from the past decade—has begat something known as "Chaos Cinema," the term coined by Matthias Stork in his two-part 2011 Press Play video analysis of modern action techniques. Stork contends that classical cinematic notions of spatial lucidity and escalating momentum have been replaced by frantic editing and unruly camera movements that beget an all-out, all-the-time sensory assault. Stork's argument initiated a heated discourse at the time—for a primer, see also Ian Grey's fierce rebuttal, Scott Nye's defense of the style as a movie cousin of abstract art, and Steven Boone's equally passionate elaboration of the trend's underlying political dimensions.

Disagreements over its usefulness notwithstanding, there was, and still is, no debating that the Chaos Cinema style—in large part pioneered by Bay, starting with 1995's "Bad Boys"—now dominates action cinema. Found in everything from Paul Greengrass' shaky-cam-crazy Bourne sequels to Justin Lin's "Fast and Furious" installments, it's an anarchic mélange of sound and imagery that at times seems only somewhat related to the plot events being portrayed onscreen. This style isn't too interested in letting you know where people and vehicles are in relation to each other. Often there doesn't seem to be a very close relationship between the visuals, which can be blurry or imprecise, and the sound, which tends to be detailed and very exact. Strangely, considering how indiscriminately it's applied, the Chaos style is often defended as a cinematic attempt to mirror the frantic nature of the action, or the excited or terrified mental state of the characters.

The Chaos Cinema system requires less precision during production than the classical method of blocking and shooting action. It farms out stunt-and-fight-heavy scenes to second units that are mainly concerned with efficiency and thoroughness and collects as much footage as possible from as many angles as possible, thus letting directors defer a good number of choices until later, when the film is being edited.

By convenient coincidence, this style is tailor-made for drama directors who might be excellent at a good many things, but who show no distinctive personality when shooting action.

There's another byproduct of shooting action this way, one that studios love: it lets them hand over large-scale, special effects-heavy goliaths such as "X-Men Origins: Wolverine" to the likes of Gavin Hood, a director whose prior credit—the South African drama "Tsotsi"—didn't demonstrate master of the technical and artistic demands of fantasy, without having to worry about the director being hampered by an action scene "learning curve."

To be sure, the aforementioned recent releases are a varied bunch. Some are more electrifying than others. But the overall outcome of this movement is incoherent, largely personality-free action, made falsely "impactful" by editing and sound design that drive every smash-cut and whip-pan home with sledgehammer force.

Studios are, for the most part, happy with this style, for a couple of reasons. One is that the audiences who drive opening weekend box-office seem to approve of this type of filmmaking, perhaps because it matches the world as they feel it. Generations that never experienced life without the Internet are increasingly cocooned in a fractured reality of Internet clips, smart phone updates, and social media messages in which the data stream never lets up. "Can it be possible that those young people born after the advent of 8-bit video games experience everything faster, harder, more intensely and more vaguely than the generations that came before it, on multiple levels, in both ecstatic and numbed-down ways?" asked Ian Grey in "The Art of Chaos Cinema." "Whatever the explanation, classical cinema is not and never again will be their answer. It doesn't match the experience of a generation of Facebookers, Tweeters and Call of Duty players. It just doesn’t. No amount of hectoring will change that."

Hollywood also likes the chaotic style because it seems like a way of shaking up the action genre—of invigorating it through filmmakers that are perhaps more interested in relationships than action, and in internal as well as external struggles. By opening up action, fantasy and superhero sagas to directors who aren't known for their flair with action, the studios are hoping to give he-man sagas some heft, and reassure actors that they're in the hands of a filmmaker who puts people first.

For particular movies, non-action-oriented directors make more sense. Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy is a good example. Jim Emerson's dissection of Nolan's sequel may have rightly slammed the Chaos Cinema-esque action. But the popularity of "The Dark Knight" is rooted less in its handling of spectacle than in its solemn atmosphere, its aspirations toward the mythic, and its determination to turn icons into three-dimensional characters. That's also why "Skyfall" was such a hit (well, that and its photocopying elements of Nolan's Batman films). It's also true for "The Wolverine," which is most notable for the way in which its hero's berserker-rage battles are secondary to his emotional/spiritual crises (guilt, regret, sorrow).

Mangold's Wolverine movie is a reasonably stirring character piece, and that—coupled with its merciful desire to operate as a stand-alone work, rather than as a thread in some multi-film tapestry—helps make up for the fact that, judged purely on its action sequences, it's no more competent than your average modern summer throwaway. Nolan and Mangold (and Favreau, whose Iron Man films are more engaging when Robert Downey Jr. is out of his armor) show that non-action directors can make superhero adventures compelling. But there's a big aesthetic downside: these films deny us the methodically mounting suspense and exhilaration and the distinctive adrenalized personality that come from watching expertly constructed action.

That skill set has become a forgotten art, currently practiced by only a few directors who either seem to have lost some of their taste for such stuff (such as The Wachowskis, whose original "The Matrix" is a gorgeous example of melding modern CG-enhanced techniques to classical composition and rhythms) or who have yet to break free from the B-movie fringes (like John Hyams, he of the well-structured, muscular "Universal Soldier: Regeneration" and "Universal Soldier: Day of Reckoning" -- see Steve Erickson's "Fresh Blood: Three Great Directors of Direct-to-Video Action").

What made 2011's "Haywire" so refreshing was director Steven Soderbergh treating male-on-female fights like dance routines. His clean framing emphasized the beautifully violent, intertwined movements of the film's warriors. Similarly, Martin Campbell's 2006 "Casino Royale" is a testament to old-school genre craftsmanship, full of immaculately executed set pieces whose momentum rises and falls with musical grace. "Royale" is more aesthetically aligned with "Die Hard" than Marc Foster's follow-up, "Quantum of Solace", whose shaky, fast-cut action scenes were largely subcontracted out to the second unit from the "Bourne" sequels.

It's hard to find contemporary mainstream actioners with with visual and spatial eloquence. Multiplexes are more likely to host the technically cruddy, quick-hit flashiness of a "Red 2" or "R.I.P.D." There's a chance that, with his October remake, Spike Lee will replicate the beautiful sustained-shot formalism of Park Chan-wook's signature brawl from "Oldboy." But given recent history, I wouldn't hold my breath.

With James Cameron intent on mucking up his action with distracting 3D gimmickry, John Woo far removed from his balletic Hong Kong shoot-'em-ups, and Steven Spielberg proclaiming a general lack of interest in the genre, the future of big-screen action now rests in the hands of Robert Schwentke, Marc Webb, and other directors whose prior claims to fame had nothing to do with fisticuffs or explosions. Of course, some of these non-action directors may, in time, reveal themselves to be the next John Frankenheimer, or Sam Peckinpah, or Walter Hill, or John McTiernan. For now, however, and on the basis of their output over the past few summers, they seem more like the horsemen of a mushrooming genre apocalypse.
The solution you're proposing isn't just on the minds of studio executives, it's becoming more and more their go-to method to the exclusion of all others, and it's clearly not having the intended effect of deepening the dramatic elements at no cost to the action sequences. Again, I've seen Affleck handle shootouts and violence without resorting to Chaos Cinema perfectly well in The Town and would much rather have him in charge than Snyder, but it shouldn't be a given that any director can competently shoot action without a closer look at their resume first.
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

Post by Lord Revan »

Also the "directing action needs no skill" ignores the logistical part of director's job, those fancy explotions and actions shots aren't free after all (even CGI isn't free) so a director needs to plan his action shots so that they're cost efficient and that takes skill, after all studios tend to dislike it when films go over budget.

Also there's the matter of time to consider action shots after all take time to rig and reset (and CGI takes time to render) so you have to plan the shots so that you stay within your timetable.
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

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TithonusSyndrome wrote:It's tempting to dismiss action directing as an uncultured or baser form of directing that panders to the lowest common denominator, but that would be unbelievably mistaken for reasons that Nick Schager explained best:
It could come off that I said that. Let me reiterate by saying "Modern action movie." Putting something like The Last Crusade into the same genre as Bad Boys is a pretty big insult to the former. Michael Bay can make mildly entertaining, and massively popular, confusing and explosive heavy action scenes. But pretty much anything else is unfiltered static. His attempts at comedy are almost always either juvenile, insulting, or both. His characters are nearly always boring cliches and he has the barest grasp of reality. His plots can't thicken because they are liquid shit.

I would say you can hire someone to "make this chase scene better" than you could hire someone to "make everything else into a decent movie."
The outcome isn't pretty: action that gets the point across but lacks coherence, as well as the unique personality that the director was supposedly hired to provide.
But what does that even mean? The problem with a lot of Bay epics is that neither the action NOR the plot, characters, anything makes any sense. And he prints money for studios. The current "action Gods" are as much the problem as anything else.
With James Cameron intent on mucking up his action with distracting 3D gimmickry, John Woo far removed from his balletic Hong Kong shoot-'em-ups, and Steven Spielberg proclaiming a general lack of interest in the genre, the future of big-screen action now rests in the hands of Robert Schwentke, Marc Webb, and other directors whose prior claims to fame had nothing to do with fisticuffs or explosions. Of course, some of these non-action directors may, in time, reveal themselves to be the next John Frankenheimer, or Sam Peckinpah, or Walter Hill, or John McTiernan. For now, however, and on the basis of their output over the past few summers, they seem more like the horsemen of a mushrooming genre apocalypse.
I don't know what he's mad about. That legendary directors are getting old? That studios want more Bay shaky-cam and non-sensical fight/action scenes? Do people usually just break into the scene with $500 million action movies? Is the guy who made some artsy student film disqualified from making "Explosions 34: The Explosioning?" Who would make his list? I would like to know, because his rant confuses me more than anything. I'll grant, I could just be that out of touch.
The solution you're proposing isn't just on the minds of studio executives, it's becoming more and more their go-to method to the exclusion of all others, and it's clearly not having the intended effect of deepening the dramatic elements at no cost to the action sequences. Again, I've seen Affleck handle shootouts and violence without resorting to Chaos Cinema perfectly well in The Town and would much rather have him in charge than Snyder, but it shouldn't be a given that any director can competently shoot action without a closer look at their resume first.
I don't really care about "depth" in of itself. But the action in action movies these days is just bland because everyone has been aping Bay and the Matrix for 20 years. The Bourne movies them came along and everyone had to ape that if possible. I get tired from counting cuts in action scenes these days, that's if I can even keep up with them.

Because that's what pays out and that's what everyone focuses on. Action scenes used to be a pay-off in the genre, not there as a matter of course.
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TithonusSyndrome
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

TheFeniX wrote:But what does that even mean? The problem with a lot of Bay epics is that neither the action NOR the plot, characters, anything makes any sense. And he prints money for studios. The current "action Gods" are as much the problem as anything else.
Juvenile plots are not the same thing as a near-complete absence of spatial reference points in a filmed sequence. Dreck is one thing; failing or rejecting the most basic principles of cinematography with cavalier recklessness is another.
I don't know what he's mad about. That legendary directors are getting old? That studios want more Bay shaky-cam and non-sensical fight/action scenes? Do people usually just break into the scene with $500 million action movies? Is the guy who made some artsy student film disqualified from making "Explosions 34: The Explosioning?" Who would make his list? I would like to know, because his rant confuses me more than anything. I'll grant, I could just be that out of touch.
The directors Hollywood is drafting for their big tentpoles aren't people who "made artsy student films", they're usually hotly new discussed veterans of SXSW or other similar festivals with a recently lauded small-budget dramatic film under their belts. Colin Trevorrow, for instance, was picked for Jurassic World based on the strength of his prior small-budget drama "Safety Not Guaranteed" out of the conceit that he'd somehow be able to make their cash cow franchise "serious" enough to not alienate the less captive portions of their target demographic. That's at least part of what's so galling; the sense that studio executives think that all they have to do is hire the guy with the right pedigree and hey presto, instant serious dramatic film appeal. Maybe I'm actually fine with a movie that isn't trying to be something bigger and more intellectual than it was meant to be, and I don't need to be condescended to with this implied sales pitch about "serious" dramatic content?

I don't know how you felt about Jurassic World; I was incredibly unimpressed with it, but that's not the point I'd like to make per se. If you watched Safety Not Guaranteed (assuming you haven't done so already) with a critical eye towards the directing, would you see anything whatsoever that said "especially qualified to direct massive big-budget dinosaur blockbuster" to you, or would you perhaps think that the studio was trying to acquire him because they wanted Serious Dramatic Director bona fides to show off - and maybe the added plus of a smaller director's fee?
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

Post by TheFeniX »

TithonusSyndrome wrote:Juvenile plots are not the same thing as a near-complete absence of spatial reference points in a filmed sequence. Dreck is one thing; failing or rejecting the most basic principles of cinematography with cavalier recklessness is another.
Are we talking about the director having no idea where something or someone was in a given scene and just letting cool shit happen because we want cool shit to happen no matter how little sense it makes? Because I see that a lot across many action movies. For just one example off-hand, the 18-wheelers about to smash each other in Matrix: Reloaded. And Bay (so, two) just forgetting Starcream existed about 50% through the ending of Transformers.
The directors Hollywood is drafting for their big tentpoles aren't people who "made artsy student films", they're usually hotly new discussed veterans of SXSW or other similar festivals with a recently lauded small-budget dramatic film under their belts. Colin Trevorrow, for instance, was picked for Jurassic World based on the strength of his prior small-budget drama "Safety Not Guaranteed" out of the conceit that he'd somehow be able to make their cash cow franchise "serious" enough to not alienate the less captive portions of their target demographic.
To quote a wise-man: "He's a white male with hair: the sky is the limit." Hollywood is more than willing to take major risks on untested white dudes.

But to not turn this into a debate about racism and sexism in Hollywood: who else are they going to get? Your small-budget films are going to focus on drama (or more to the point: "not action") due to the overreliance on HUGE EXPLOOOOOOSIONs in the current action market. Or just fight-choreography and actors who have the skills to pay the bills in that area, which actually does cost. Factor in CGI wherever. Where do we get these new people to replace the old-hat guys? And hasn't a guy like Affleck at least put in the legwork in enough movies across multiple genres to get his shot?

Just on a larf, I looked up Speilbergs first movie and found an Ebert review on it:
If the movie finally doesn’t succeed, that’s because Spielberg has paid too much attention to all those police cars (and all the crashes they get into), and not enough to the personalities of his characters. We get to know these three people just enough to want to know them better. We’re burdened instead with countless telephoto shots of squad cars.
More things change I guess.
That's at least part of what's so galling; the sense that studio executives think that all they have to do is hire the guy with the right pedigree and hey presto, instant serious dramatic film appeal. Maybe I'm actually fine with a movie that isn't trying to be something bigger and more intellectual than it was meant to be, and I don't need to be condescended to with this implied sales pitch about "serious" dramatic content?
"Serious" action movies are generally shit either way. I lump Dark Knight into the same boat as Bioshock Infinite: stupid shit that makes no sense does not mean "serious" or "intelligent." Hell, you can probably blame the Bale Batman reboot for a lot of this shit.
I don't know how you felt about Jurassic World; I was incredibly unimpressed with it, but that's not the point I'd like to make per se. If you watched Safety Not Guaranteed (assuming you haven't done so already) with a critical eye towards the directing, would you see anything whatsoever that said "especially qualified to direct massive big-budget dinosaur blockbuster" to you, or would you perhaps think that the studio was trying to acquire him because they wanted Serious Dramatic Director bona fides to show off - and maybe the added plus of a smaller director's fee?
That people watched JP4 after the third one is a mystery to me. Either way, only seen pieces of it and it looked terrible. With the script as written, who realistically could have salvaged such a train-wreck? Speilberg? He never would have directed that movie as written. So if anything, the "new guys" not being able to tell the studios "you're fucking crazy, no way I'm doing that" probably plays a part as well.
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

TheFeniX wrote:Are we talking about the director having no idea where something or someone was in a given scene and just letting cool shit happen because we want cool shit to happen no matter how little sense it makes? Because I see that a lot across many action movies. For just one example off-hand, the 18-wheelers about to smash each other in Matrix: Reloaded. And Bay (so, two) just forgetting Starcream existed about 50% through the ending of Transformers.
No, I'm talking about shots where you literally can't tell where everyone is in relation to each other or their surroundings due to sudden motion. There isn't enough visual reference to make sense of what is moving where in the layout of the room or open space they happen to be in. That's Chaos Cinema, in a nutshell, and maybe it has it's place to convey a sense of disorientation in a character or something, but it can't be the mainstay of all action film the way it often is when inexperienced action directors shoot movies.
But to not turn this into a debate about racism and sexism in Hollywood: who else are they going to get? Your small-budget films are going to focus on drama (or more to the point: "not action") due to the overreliance on HUGE EXPLOOOOOOSIONs in the current action market. Or just fight-choreography and actors who have the skills to pay the bills in that area, which actually does cost. Factor in CGI wherever. Where do we get these new people to replace the old-hat guys?
Traditionally, action directors honed their craft in commercial work, second unit directing or other similar effects-heavy venues before working their way up to the big chair. This has only changed in the past ten years on account of this new trend of trying to conscript indie-drama directors into the role of action directors without any direct technical experience.
And hasn't a guy like Affleck at least put in the legwork in enough movies across multiple genres to get his shot?
I feel that he has, at least. That's what I said earlier when I praised his work in The Town.
That people watched JP4 after the third one is a mystery to me. Either way, only seen pieces of it and it looked terrible. With the script as written, who realistically could have salvaged such a train-wreck? Speilberg? He never would have directed that movie as written. So if anything, the "new guys" not being able to tell the studios "you're fucking crazy, no way I'm doing that" probably plays a part as well.
I feel you are missing the point by getting bogged down in your specific gripes about the state of a given franchise. Is there a better example I could offer, like the aforementioned director of "Tsotsi" being picked to direct "The Wolverine", perhaps?

And this may be turning into a tangent, so perhaps a mod would like to make a call on splitting this thread or not?
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Crown wrote:Picking a fight? Calm down precious. :lol:
You are trying to make a contentious issue where I don't believe one existed, and just won't let it go. You are misrepresenting what I am saying and what this conversation is about in the process. And when called on it, you fall back on mockery and condescension.
You just don't seem to get it. Let me state it again and ask you one last time; For purposes of this discussion we're differentiating between Bruce Wayne and Batman with that in mind did you like The Batman in BvS? Because that is down to the director. Bruce Wayne (by contrast) is more down to the actor. I'm asking you to clarify your comment.
Yeah, keep being a condescending asshole. You evidently think that if you talk to me like a developmentally challenged child, it will somehow validate whatever point you're trying to make.

It won't.

You may be differentiating between Bruce and Batman, but I never made such a distinction, and I am inclined to regard them as two facets of the same character, and you don't get to suddenly dictate that we're making a distinction between the two. That may be your opinion. It is not mine, and you should not act like I'm too stupid to understand the topic because I do not agree with that particular interpretation.

And I did, quote obviously, explain my feelings on the character of Batman, at least in brief. I have very mixed feelings about the Batman, but I think that despite the flaws in the script and direction, Affleck nonetheless did a good job. What is so fucking hard to understand about that? Nothing. Which leaves me no choice but to suspect that you are deliberately misrepresenting what I am saying and trying to obfuscate the subject so that you can keep acting like I'm too stupid to understand what we're talking about and score points for Zach Snyder in the process.

But to elaborate- their were aspects of the character I did not like. I have misgivings about a Batman who kills, is a xenophobe, and who is this gratuitously grimdark, although I suppose you can argue that they needed to raise the stakes for this film, and I think that they managed to make it work better than I would have expected it to.

I also unambiguously dislike Zach Snyder's visual style, and felt the script was badly constructed and the film badly edited. These are generally critiques, but they affect Batman insofar as they affect the film as a whole.

However, I feel that Affleck managed to turn in a good performance in spite of that, so all the more credit to him.

If you like, we can regard Bruce out of costume as a different aspect of the character that was more influenced by Affleck, and Bruce in the costume as one that may have been more influenced by Snyder. In which case I would say I preferred Bruce out of the suite, though I feel Bruce in the suite could be better with a different director and a better script.
And I'm not being hyperbolic here; I'm basing this on the interviews of Christian Bale, Ben Affleck, Amy Adams and the footage of the making of BvS.
Do you have any links to your sources?
It's not about me caring whether or not you do or don't like Snyder. It's just in this context it doesn't make sense to claim to like this Batman but hating the director who is almost entirely and solely responsible for putting him on screen.
Except, as I clearly said before and will not bother to repeat after this, I do not like all aspects of the film's depiction of Batman. I like Affleck's performance. As I have been saying all along, and you have somehow seen fit to refuse to grasp.

Edit: Or to sum up the basic issue here as succinctly as possible- on the whole, I like Affleck's acting. On the whole, I don't like Snyder's directing. Their is no contradiction in those positions.
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

Post by Crown »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Crown wrote:Picking a fight? Calm down precious. :lol:
You are trying to make a contentious issue where I don't believe one existed, and just won't let it go. You are misrepresenting what I am saying and what this conversation is about in the process. And when called on it, you fall back on mockery and condescension.

<snip and paste two paragraphs that make the same point so they can be addressed at the same time for brevity's sake>

Yeah, keep being a condescending asshole. You evidently think that if you talk to me like a developmentally challenged child, it will somehow validate whatever point you're trying to make.
I'm not that subtle. When I treat you like a child you'll know it.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
Crown wrote:You just don't seem to get it. Let me state it again and ask you one last time; For purposes of this discussion we're differentiating between Bruce Wayne and Batman with that in mind did you like The Batman in BvS? Because that is down to the director. Bruce Wayne (by contrast) is more down to the actor. I'm asking you to clarify your comment.
You may be differentiating between Bruce and Batman, but I never made such a distinction, and I am inclined to regard them as two facets of the same character, and you don't get to suddenly dictate that we're making a distinction between the two. That may be your opinion.

<snip>
An "opinion" shared by the two most recent actors to play the role ...
The Romulan Republic wrote:
Crown wrote:And I'm not being hyperbolic here; I'm basing this on the interviews of Christian Bale, Ben Affleck, Amy Adams and the footage of the making of BvS.
Do you have any links to your sources?
Here's Batfleck (go to 3m20s), I couldn't find the one where he flat out said he wasn't too worried about Batman as he thought that was the director's responsibility, but it's close enough;



Here's a breakdown of what he said; "I think in truth, your chief responsibility (and mine) was to play Bruce Wayne. To make that character human and relatable so that the audience have a window into the soul of that guy that they can project onto that Batman thing they see, that's really - part of it is created by me in the suit - but a lot of it; the suit, the production design, the sound design the entire mood, like the director builds your Batman that you kind of inhabit. So you have a lot of help doing that, it's the Bruce Wayne you have to construct.

Can't find Bale's but he said something a long the lines; "I never really got what I wanted out of that character (Batman) during those movies - Chris (Nolan) did, I didn't."

The Batman, as Affleck alludes to, is essentially a live action CGI prop. He appears in heavy set piece scenes, not in any place where an actor can freely explore any emotional range or depth. He's there to hit a guy. Usually it's a stunt double that's doing most of it, for BvS the fight between Batman and Superman it wasn't even a double it was a motion capture and then CGI'd in Batman in the suit. When we talk about 'Batfleck' it's a funny misnomer. What we really should be talking about is Burton's Batman, Nolan's Batman and Snyder's Batman. Affleck's Batman won't really appear until he directs his movie.

This isn't a controversial or hard to grasp concept, it's like when people say "I hated Toby's Peter Parker, but I liked his Spiderman", what they really are saying they hated Toby's Peter Parker but they liked Raimi's Spiderman since most of that movie when you were looking at Spiderman it was a CGI insert.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
Crown wrote:It's not about me caring whether or not you do or don't like Snyder. It's just in this context it doesn't make sense to claim to like this Batman but hating the director who is almost entirely and solely responsible for putting him on screen.
Except, as I clearly said before and will not bother to repeat after this, I do not like all aspects of the film's depiction of Batman. I like Affleck's performance. As I have been saying all along, and you have somehow seen fit to refuse to grasp.

Edit: Or to sum up the basic issue here as succinctly as possible- on the whole, I like Affleck's acting. On the whole, I don't like Snyder's directing. Their is no contradiction in those positions.
I'm not asking you to like all aspect's of the film's depiction of Batman, I'm saying you should be attributing the parts you like to Snyder because the Batman is the director's creation more than the actors (with the one exception if you felt that Ben's chin dimple was what really sold you. :lol: ). What will happen if you cede some credit to Snyder? Do you have to go back and re-examine all your life choices?
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Re: Solo Batman film announced, Affleck to star and direct.

Post by TheFeniX »

TithonusSyndrome wrote:No, I'm talking about shots where you literally can't tell where everyone is in relation to each other or their surroundings due to sudden motion. There isn't enough visual reference to make sense of what is moving where in the layout of the room or open space they happen to be in. That's Chaos Cinema, in a nutshell, and maybe it has it's place to convey a sense of disorientation in a character or something, but it can't be the mainstay of all action film the way it often is when inexperienced action directors shoot movies.
Ok, sorry. You're right, I was off on a different tangent. I agree that the "Chaos Cinema" shit is pretty bad and is probably a big reason why I hate action movies these days. Well, that's not true. I don't even mind the Chaos Cinema shit if the movie can deliver in other areas. You are also correct in that we're getting a bit spread out here, so I'll cut it down:

Chaos Cinema is just an extension, to the worst end, of what Speilberg started with Saving Private Ryan. Directors took this cool and novel idea and put it whereever they could, even if it didn't fit. Likely because their version is easier and can be cut together later with left-over footage. I just don't see it as a problem with the directors so much as everyone thinks this is the way it has to be. It's like any fight-scene after The Matrix. Fight choreography was changed pretty much forever after that. I have to watch train wrecks like "Fast and Furious" to a see Red Meat™ fight scene like Diesel and The Rock pounding each other like Stallone and Snipes did back in Demolition Man.

The only people who really seem to mind are the critics though as younger viewers are lining up in droves to see the new movies. And when critical reception is out of whack with money, money will always win. So, I'll grant that if there's a pool of ready-to-be directors available who have put in the time in the genre, they should get a shot. But it's hard to argue with the Suites desire to keep pulling from where they are. They aren't fixing the action because to them, it isn't broken and anyone can give them the style they want. So, anyone who has sat in a directors chair once is fair game.

I also see those either group of up-and-coming directors getting pushed into more shaky cam/50 cuts in a 2 second fight bullshit because "that's what the kids want."
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