MCU Avengers vs DCU Justice League

[Balrog]

'Marvel's The Avengers' heroes vs 'Batman v Superman' heroes. The two crews start out at opposite ends of Metropolis. Batman starts out in his Batplane and has his power armor suit; Captain America, Hawkeye and Black Widow in the S.H.I.E.L.D. jet. The fight is to the death. Who wins?

[Gandalf]

Doesn't this ultimately come down to whether or not Superman can stop Hulk?

[Tribble]

Wait, is this Batman vs Captain America, Hawkeye and Black Widow? Or are the full teams involved?

[The Romulan Republic]

If Superman is involved, I don't think it matters how many Avengers their are.

Superman Spoiler

survived getting nuked. And trading punches with something that survived getting nuked and falling from orbit.

[Balrog]

Wait, is this Batman vs Captain America, Hawkeye and Black Widow? Or are the full teams involved?

Full teams involved.

[The Romulan Republic]

First film Avengers only, I take it?

Well, I say Superman cremes them all. Batman can take Cap, Widow, and Hawkeye (possibly all at the same time). WW certainly can. Superman just needs to keep the heavy hitters busy. He can stay out of Hulk's reach (or fly him into space), Iron Man won't last long, and Thor just isn't on the same level.

[Crown]

Is Ang Lee's Bana-Hulk canon in the MCU? Or did they 'reset' it with Norton? Because didn't Bana-Hulk eat a nuke to the face as well?

Anyway, Cap isn't a pushover for Batman (even with the suit), but Wonder Woman is about Thor level and it all comes down to Superman vs Hulk (and really putting him in orbit and leaving him there gives Superman the default win doesn't it?).

[The Romulan Republic]

Pretty sure Ang Lee's isn't canon.

And honestly, based on his performance in Batman v Superman, I think Clark could probably solo this one.

Wonder Woman and the Batman just make it more lopsided.

[Simon_Jester]

My expectation based on what I know from other movies, not having seen the new DC movie, may not be worth much. But here's the big questions on my mind-

1) Does Batman's armor let him go toe to toe with heavy hitters? If so, he's basically Iron Man for tactical purposes except maybe without the flight.

2) Does DC movie Superman share 'real' Superman's susceptibility to magic? If so, Thor might actually be able to handle him, because hitting him with Mjolnir will work disproportionately well.

3) Does Marvel Cinematic Hulk have the strength it takes to handle Superman? In the 2008 movie Hulk seems to have some pretty sharp limitations that would suggest the answer is 'no.' But he seems quite a bit more formidable in the recent movies. Then again, I can't imagine Superman having any trouble overpowering the Hulkbuster suit, while Hulk does have trouble doing so- in fact, every time it comes down to a direct test of strength between Hulk and Hulkbuster, Hulkbuster wins. Banner did a good job helping Stark design the thing. So... yeah, honestly I don't think Hulk can stop Superman.

That means Marvel's only winning strategy here is:
a) Hope Thor can hold off Superman by using magical powers to cause disproportionate harm.
b) Hulk goes after Wonder Woman, who can almost certainly hold her own but probably won't just casually flatten him.
c) Iron Man can probably take down Batman, if only because Iron Man has more experience being a genius billionaire philanthropist in a powered suit. The only other person who might be able to cope with Bats (aside from Thor and Hulk who are very very busy) would be Captain America, who put in a surprisingly good showing against the vastly stronger Ultron android body in Seoul in the last Avengers movie.
d) I'm not sure who else is in play on the DC team or what power levels they've been shown at.

[Crown]

My expectation based on what I know from other movies, not having seen the new DC movie, may not be worth much. But here's the big questions on my mind-

1) Does Batman's armor let him go toe to toe with heavy hitters? If so, he's basically Iron Man for tactical purposes except maybe without the flight.

I don't think it does; it's more to stop his body being snapped in two by Superman when he love taps him. But Superman does drag Batman through a building and fling him down with force to pulverise brick so ...

2) Does DC movie Superman share 'real' Superman's susceptibility to magic? If so, Thor might actually be able to handle him, because hitting him with Mjolnir will work disproportionately well.

We don't really know 100%, but the heavy implication is 'yes', Superman remains susceptible to magic; but does that help Thor? The way he commands lightning is magic, but the lightning its self doesn't appear to be (if that makes any sense?); Tony's suit absorbed it like a capacitor in Avengers for example.

3) Does Marvel Cinematic Hulk have the strength it takes to handle Superman? In the 2008 movie Hulk seems to have some pretty sharp limitations that would suggest the answer is 'no.' But he seems quite a bit more formidable in the recent movies. Then again, I can't imagine Superman having any trouble overpowering the Hulkbuster suit, while Hulk does have trouble doing so- in fact, every time it comes down to a direct test of strength between Hulk and Hulkbuster, Hulkbuster wins. Banner did a good job helping Stark design the thing. So... yeah, honestly I don't think Hulk can stop Superman.

As I asked above; Ang Lee's Bana-Hulk is a good match up ... not so sure with the Norton/Ruffalo reboot though.

That means Marvel's only winning strategy here is:
a) Hope Thor can hold off Superman by using magical powers to cause disproportionate harm.
b) Hulk goes after Wonder Woman, who can almost certainly hold her own but probably won't just casually flatten him.
c) Iron Man can probably take down Batman, if only because Iron Man has more experience being a genius billionaire philanthropist in a powered suit. The only other person who might be able to cope with Bats (aside from Thor and Hulk who are very very busy) would be Captain America, who put in a surprisingly good showing against the vastly stronger Ultron android body in Seoul in the last Avengers movie.
d) I'm not sure who else is in play on the DC team or what power levels they've been shown at.

a) Agreed
b) I think Wonder Woman is on par with Thor in terms of strength, not sure about Hulk
c) Iron Man's suit > Batman's (as depicted in the movie) which is why I actually think Cap would have an okay shot against Batman ... then again Batman in the Batwing or Batmobile might possibly be a threat to Iron Man, but even that is doubtful
d) Just the Trinity so far. The cameo's from "other members" of the Justice League don't count yet I don't think

[Simon_Jester]

We don't really know 100%, but the heavy implication is 'yes', Superman remains susceptible to magic; but does that help Thor? The way he commands lightning is magic, but the lightning its self doesn't appear to be (if that makes any sense?); Tony's suit absorbed it like a capacitor in Avengers for example.

I'm not sure; Superman might take an unusual hit from the lightning even if Stark's suit can absorb the electricity. But that's not what I was really getting at; I was focusing on Mjolnir. Thor's hammer is definitely a magical weapon and other such magical weapons are often effective against supernatural creatures anyhow.

That means Marvel's only winning strategy here is:
a) Hope Thor can hold off Superman by using magical powers to cause disproportionate harm.
b) Hulk goes after Wonder Woman, who can almost certainly hold her own but probably won't just casually flatten him.
c) Iron Man can probably take down Batman, if only because Iron Man has more experience being a genius billionaire philanthropist in a powered suit. The only other person who might be able to cope with Bats (aside from Thor and Hulk who are very very busy) would be Captain America, who put in a surprisingly good showing against the vastly stronger Ultron android body in Seoul in the last Avengers movie.
d) I'm not sure who else is in play on the DC team or what power levels they've been shown at.

a) Agreed
b) I think Wonder Woman is on par with Thor in terms of strength, not sure about Hulk
c) Iron Man's suit > Batman's (as depicted in the movie) which is why I actually think Cap would have an okay shot against Batman ... then again Batman in the Batwing or Batmobile might possibly be a threat to Iron Man, but even that is doubtful
d) Just the Trinity so far. The cameo's from "other members" of the Justice League don't count yet I don't think

b) Well, Thor could hold his own against Hulk for a while, so I imagine Wonder Woman could, but it wouldn't be easy for her and she might lose. This is why I'm describing it as a winning scenario for Marvel. Hulk versus Superman isn't a good plan because Superman might be stronger. Hulk has nothing special that weakens Superman; Thor does.

[Enigma]

In the JLA vs the Avengers crossover comics Thor did fight Superman and lost. Supes overcame the Mjolnir. Hell, later in the series he even held the Mjolnir for a while.

[Batman]

I wouldn't bet on Clark's magic weakness too heavily. Not only is that so ill-defined as to be completely useless (he can, afterall, go toe-to-toe with Shazam/Captain Marvel without being instantly pulverized) but it would require Mjölnir to be actual magic as opposed to 'science we don't understand yet' (Jane Foster, quoting Arthur C. Clarke). None other than the Big Guy himself, from the same movie: 'Your ancestors called it magic. You call it science. I come from a land where they are one and the same.'
Not directly relevant to this scenario, but on the animated Avengers Assemble, Tony Stark called magic 'just technology I haven't figured out yet.'
There are many indicators a lot of Asgardian 'magic' is, in fact, nothing more (heh) than extremely advanced technology.
This may include the hammer.

[Simon_Jester]

That's a fair point; I may be unduly affected by other crossover scenarios of lesser canonical status (either in general, or with respect to the MCU) in which the hammer has been presented as more magical

That said, Enigma, I'm interested to know whether in your opinion, DC movie Superman would be considered worthy to pick up Mjolnir?

[Bedlam]

2) Does DC movie Superman share 'real' Superman's susceptibility to magic? If so, Thor might actually be able to handle him, because hitting him with Mjolnir will work disproportionately well.

There are some hints from Batman v Superman that he might but they are a bit convoluted. It based on Wonder Woman's sword being able to cut Doomsday. Doomsday is made of Kryptonian tissue so would presumably have the same weaknesses as Superman. We don't know Wonder Woman's background but if it's close to the comics her wielding a magical weapon would not be unusual, so if the weapon is magical that might be why it can hurt Doomsday where as Batman's power assisted fists dent on Superman.

[Tribble]

Thor may have to be careful when using Mjolnir because going from movie canon there is the distrinct possibility that Superman, Wonder Women and perhaps even Batman might be capable of wielding it. Don't forget that in Avengers 2 Captain America was able to make Mjolnir shift during a contest (IMO that scene suggets that Mjolnir could be used by him it if it were a crisis and Thor was incapacitated or something), and Vision was able to pick it up as well. Out of the three of them IMO Wonder Woman would be the most likely candidate; she's a great hero, her powers are at least partially magic based and unlike Superman she is a warrior by default. If any of them are worthy Thor might be in for a hell of a surprise.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah, if I were Thor I wouldn't try the "put the hammer in his hand to pin him to the ground" trick Thor used against Hulk in Avengers.

[Enigma]

That's a fair point; I may be unduly affected by other crossover scenarios of lesser canonical status (either in general, or with respect to the MCU) in which the hammer has been presented as more magical

That said, Enigma, I'm interested to know whether in your opinion, DC movie Superman would be considered worthy to pick up Mjolnir?

Reeves' Superman? Yup. Routh's Superman? Some doubts on it. Cavill's Superman? I'd lean to say yes but I have not seen BvS.

Mind you in JL vs. Avengers, Superman only wielded Mjolnir (I believe he also had Cap's shield) when everyone teamed up against the big bad guy (I forgot his name but he was tied in to CoIE and IC I believe). After the they won, Superman wasn't able to lift the hammer. Thor did say it was Odin's doing I believe.

[Enigma]

Thor may have to be careful when using Mjolnir because going from movie canon there is the distrinct possibility that Superman, Wonder Women and perhaps even Batman might be capable of wielding it. Don't forget that in Avengers 2 Captain America was able to make Mjolnir shift during a contest (IMO that scene suggets that Mjolnir could be used by him it if it were a crisis and Thor was incapacitated or something), and Vision was able to pick it up as well. Out of the three of them IMO Wonder Woman would be the most likely candidate; she's a great hero, her powers are at least partially magic based and unlike Superman she is a warrior by default. If any of them are worthy Thor might be in for a hell of a surprise.

In DC vs. Marvel, WW did pick up Mjolnir when she was about to face Storm (stupid fight. WW should've been able to wipe the floor with her.) but dropped it as she thought that it would be cheating.

[Crown]

2) Does DC movie Superman share 'real' Superman's susceptibility to magic? If so, Thor might actually be able to handle him, because hitting him with Mjolnir will work disproportionately well.

There are some hints from Batman v Superman that he might but they are a bit convoluted. It based on Wonder Woman's sword being able to cut Doomsday. Doomsday is made of Kryptonian tissue so would presumably have the same weaknesses as Superman. We don't know Wonder Woman's background but if it's close to the comics her wielding a magical weapon would not be unusual, so if the weapon is magical that might be why it can hurt Doomsday where as Batman's power assisted fists dent on Superman.

Just a small nitpick; Doomsday in BvS may have not been full Kryptonian.

[NeoGoomba]

I think Reeves' Superman would be a lock to use Mjolnir.

And sadly, I don't think the Avengers are quite in the Trinity's league (which was demonstrated pretty well in JLA/Avengers). The only thing the Avengers have going for them is that they are all killers, whereas Superman and Batman may hold back a bit, subconsciously or otherwise. Thor or Cap won't hesitate to kill their opponents if their backs are against the wall. Hulk, IM, and the two normies just don't give a shit.

If Superman sees them, somehow, as some massive threat, however

I wonder how the second iteration of the Avengers would do against the Trinity? They lose Thor and Hulk, but gain Vision and Scarlet Witch. Scarlet Witch has some insane upside, and I think it'd be interesting to see if War Machine and Vision could hold off WW and Superman long enough for Wanda to pull off some shenanigans.

[The Romulan Republic]

Batman in the new film is Spoiler

definitely a killer too.

Superman is, but only when pushed to extremes.

Wonder Woman... well, we only ever see her fight Doomsday, but considering she uses a sword (not exactly a non-lethal weapon) and apparently participated in a world war...

[NeoGoomba]

Batman in the new film is Spoiler

definitely a killer too.

Superman is, but only when pushed to extremes.

Wonder Woman... well, we only ever see her fight Doomsday, but considering she uses a sword (not exactly a non-lethal weapon) and apparently participated in a world war...

Fair enough.

It will be interesting to see how we'll Cap and Bucky do against Iron Man in "Civil War". Going off of previews, Cap may be able to actually take down Batman's armor on his own.

[Enigma]

I think Reeves' Superman would be a lock to use Mjolnir.

And sadly, I don't think the Avengers are quite in the Trinity's league (which was demonstrated pretty well in JLA/Avengers). The only thing the Avengers have going for them is that they are all killers, whereas Superman and Batman may hold back a bit, subconsciously or otherwise. Thor or Cap won't hesitate to kill their opponents if their backs are against the wall. Hulk, IM, and the two normies just don't give a shit.

If Superman sees them, somehow, as some massive threat, however

I wonder how the second iteration of the Avengers would do against the Trinity? They lose Thor and Hulk, but gain Vision and Scarlet Witch. Scarlet Witch has some insane upside, and I think it'd be interesting to see if War Machine and Vision could hold off WW and Superman long enough for Wanda to pull off some shenanigans.

Yeah about that, Zantana is much more powerful than SW. SW was in the DC verse she had trouble controlling her abilities (going by memory) when she tried to tap into the same source as Zantana. She said something about the magic in the DC verse being more powerful and wild compared to her universe.

Somehow I don't see SW succeeding much against Superman.

[Simon_Jester]

Uh... Zatanna, unless we're talking about a different sorceress...

OK, if we're taking comics anyway, while the Scarlet Witch may have trouble controlling sources of magic from the DC universe that doesn't mean that what she can do is less powerful than what Zatanna can do. On the contrary, a less controllable source of power might limit Zatanna to smaller-scale effects that she's sure won't blow up in her face. The Scarlet Witch has on multiple occasions altered all of reality in moments, has created living people as a subconscious manifestation of her powers, and has proven strong enough not just to survive but to become influential and powerful when stranded in otherworldly dimensions. Zatanna may be able to match such feats but I doubt she can top them.

If we're talking movie versions of characters, then Zatanna doesn't exist and there aren't any magicians of note in the DC movie universe yet. The MCU Scarlet Witch's abilities are strong enough to permit her to tear and crush ultra-strong metals, and note that this is far from the only thing she can do to people. She disabled pretty much the entire Avengers with telepathic visions, you may recall. And there's no reason to assume that DC cinematic Superman is any less susceptible to such treatment than, say, Thor.

That said, MCU Scarlet Witch against Superman is still a pretty unlikely bet, because it's unlikely that Superman can be put down for the count by anything she does. Befuddling him with illusions would work for a while (maybe long enough to let the Vision or War Machine work over his teammates), but it wouldn't last forever. Trying to use brute force against him is... iffy, since I suspect he's actually tougher than Ultron's vibranium body, especially considering the pounding Ultron took from the other heroes prior to encountering Scarlet Witch.